Mini Normal 1996: Floral Mafia [Endgame!]

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god dammit people

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VOTE: katherine

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maria's reasoning is solid. Also dislike tchill's 41. Also skeptical of cedrick's opening.

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maria's reasoning is solid. Also dislike tchill's 41. Also skeptical of cedrick's opening.

What do you have against puns?

Not your first post, just most of your other ones.

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can we have more engagement? i don't want to play a stagnate game.

I'm happy to engage with you if you're not going to be ridiculously cryptic ^_^

cedrick is probably actually town.

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Like, if you're annoyed that there's no engagement then please, explain why you scumread me and mumble.

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In a vacuum I want to call kts town right now but I don't think I know his meta well enough to have any degree of confidence in that.

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What about it? Should he be drawing the same conclusion as you..?

It's very beg-the-question-y, as though it would be reasonable to nail someone as scum off of a single point. It looks like scum hedging on either a scumbuddy or on a townie and not really sure if they want to risk joining the possibly-developing wagon.

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Ausuka is town. Her reads progression (particularly her willingness to repeatedly add reads and not rest on the list) since the initial list looks like genuine gamesolving. Inclined toward Luca town. I don't think going all-in on the tchill push is how scum opens at that point in time. I don't think there were any other non-RVS votes at that point? And he was fairly contentious. And the reasoning feels decent enough. Not sure what I think about tchill right now though.

Maria seems town as well.

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kts is also starting to sound like he's making shit up in a scummy way. His flip on tchill is really odd and makes more sense from scum than from town i think. I don't think that town-kts would display as much confidence on the tchill read as he did if it was capable of being overturned by such a simple meta dive; the read itself was sort of implicitly meta-based.

Gamma I don't think I've seen as scum before actually but I'm also not sure he goes for the tchill push here in this way.

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mmmmmhm

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how is that omgus.

he called me scum yesterday and I even said I was leaning town on him at that point.

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Ausuka's biggest issue is that right now I can 100% assure you she is not voting scum.

Please clarify in what sense this is an "issue"; do you think scum are more likely to not be voting right now?

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I think KTS "how many mafia are there" dumbtell was legit

Why specifically do you think this?

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katherine wagon formation always hit a villager.

Care to, you know, not be ridiculously cryptic?

The people on the wagon? The speed at which the wagon formed? The timing of the votes?

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like, i'm not sure how i'm supposed to respond to these posts without getting frustrated. i'm getting belittled, insulted, and blatantly called stupid for attempting to push the gamestate forward and accurately lock scum to certain pools to which i believe in. i don't know these people, i've tried not to antagonize anyone, and these guys are sitting here pretending like they're superior to me.

Idk who here is acting like they're superior to you. I'm getting annoyed by your posting because you sound consistently like you think you're superior to everyone else, claiming to have solved the game in five pages, claiming that you have rock-solid knowledge of your own meta and that people who think they should be townreading you are wrong no matter what their reasoning is, consistently dismissing people on face when they say they have reads that are the opposite of yours, using terminology that's atypical of this site and then getting angry at people when they ask what you mean, hammering a hard scumread on someone with a single post for several pages and acting as though the reasoning for that scumread was so self-evident that you shouldn't need to explain it in the slightest and that anyone who didn't get it wasn't reading the game...

You've been coming off as very, very antagonistic, and people are responding in kind; many people aren't even being antagonistic, and you're interpreting what they're saying as antagonistic for whatever reason (e.g. 35, 58, and generally a lot of what you cited being people responding to your refusal to acknowledge that they have their own opinions).

You're being impossible to work with because you refuse to explain anything (though the wall is at least a start) and demand that we all figure out what you mean. I have a hard time believing that you have real internal state to your reads that isn't manufactured; I don't really read alignment info into the claim of feeling attacked but I don't see any evidence that you've formed genuine opinions and the way that your reads are pushed forward so assertively and yet are able to change with the wind (specifically tchill) is scummy.

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I mean you can misremember things

What is the scum motive for 180ing like that? Changing your mind based on some new information is something that typically rings town

It's not new information though. It's information that he should have already had. At least, he was acting like he was damn familiar with Tchill's meta, and reading a towngame for 5 minutes shouldn't change that and I have a hard time believing that he genuinely flipped so staunchly from that.

The scum motivation is as simple as wanting to fake a read or potentially wanting another mislynch candidate.

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Unvote

VOTE: Killthestory

Don't like mumble's vote and don't want this wagon lolhammered before he gives content. 356 also might be town.

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implosion really, really contradicts himself here. your entrance is exactly your first post,

no, entrance means opening posts, not first post. At least that's what i meant by it.

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sorry, that was from kts's wall.

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i really disliked this post from implosion as it felt too easy of a pile on, and he just seemingly goes along with what maria said without offering anything of his own. no resistance to the scumread, no genuine reads of his own. seems like a typical wolf play for a mislynch early on.

Wherein kts asserts that my agreeing with maria on katherine is not genuine, because it is not genuine and because it is merely agreeing with katherine??

what do you even mean by "resistance to the scumread"? You have given literally zero hesitation on a single one of the opinions you've given in this game.

switches up his whole narrative instantly after half assing a push against cedrick. again, fake reads.

Again, not a shred of reasoning for why this is scummy. "switches up his whole narrative" is just a way of casting shade on me for changing an opinion, without looking even slightly at the substance of why I might be changing it and without any interest in my reasons for it. Also, claiming that I pushed cedrick is ridiculous. Literally all I said was I was skeptical of his opening. If that constitutes a push in the slightest then idk.

another wishy washy read that gives almost no value to the thread. definitrly in our lynch pool.

Wherein kts continues the process of quoting a post of mine, describing that post using the most negative language he can, and declaring me scum based on that interpretation of it.

individually, these posts are good. in the context of the game, i seriously wonder why implosion only commented on us 5 when there's more colorful personalities within the game. it really feels he's trying to avoid spew on any scumbuddies or scummy town, and he's trying to let the game progress to a mislynch without damning himself. really scummy play imo, he's gotta go soon.

I think this above any of the others demonstrates that kts doesn't have any interest whatsoever in actually sorting me or engaging with people despite him proclaiming that he didn't want the game to stagnate.

He "wonders" why I only commented on those five people, yet instead of asking me, he IMMEDIATELY jumps to the conclusion "implosion must be scum who's trying to do any of eleven different possible scum motivations for this" instead of (1) considering that i might have any degree of town motivation for it, or (2) literally fucking asking why I only mentioned those people.

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And ftr, I mentioned those people because they were the people I either had solid reads on, or wanted to float ideas about. I want more input on gamma and on KTS from other people.

Luca pinged town at one point but idr where and am not in a big rush to sort that slot. Also need to sort brass and havo. Creature I don't have a read on yet but he's the kind of slot where if everyone else calls him town I'm probably willing to defer to consensus; afaik he's gotten this recent meta of contributing iff he's town, and I don't think that meta existed last time that I played with him.

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This game is starting to remind me of the only game in the past like ~5 years that I've been mislynched, and I went back and looked at it and it's very deeply irritating. Both have people voting me with no reasons and literally ignoring me when I try to discourse with them. It's killing my motivation. Creature coincidentally was on that wagon too (as town). This isn't my scumgame.

gamma is more strongly town, cedrick is still (and more strongly) town. Tchill is also probably town. I still don't buy the people calling kts town. He's done nothing that's not fakeable and still shows a really bad progression.

I also don't buy this:

btw I'm not voting mumble unless someone can give me a case for why he's scum rather than bad town because honestly I don't even see his play as that bad, sure he's been quiet but he's at least given stances

Have you ever heard of the lowest bar in the world?

He gave stances. Once. And called a bunch of things bad with no justification in an incredibly easy-to-fake way. He jumped on my wagon at literally the most opportunistic time possible.

Unvote

VOTE: Mumble

Kts/mumble are probably not both scum, but it's possible and preflip associatives are bad etc. I think my scum pool right now is something like {mumble, kts, brass}, possibly katherine. Everyone else is probably town, to varying degrees. Weakest of those are probably havo and luca. I actually like some of brass's posting more the more I look at it (506 would be a weird line of reasoning to fake).

Can justify things more if desired.

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VOTE: Mumble

Before I say what I really want to say...did you vote me with the intent and understanding that you were putting me at L-1?

L-2.

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/vote implosion

uses progression as a means of scumreading me lol. progression equals bad articulation. has no effective meaning on anyones alignments.

similarly, votes on the wagon i hard pushed after shading with some back street shady fucking reasoning because he's trying to live.

the dude also uses ate to try to get us off. anything and everything he can pull, hes gonna try it lol.

This is pretty bad.

1. I disagree - scum have to fake their reads, therefore their progression has to be forced in a way Town's isn't, but even if you were correct about this, being wrong on theory =/= scummy.

2. Just because he scumreads you doesn't mean he can't also scumread someone you vote. Like, if one of your scumreads has a bigger wagon than the other I think it's pretty natural to vote the one with the bigger wagon.

3. You have also used AtE yourself this game. It's quite understandable given the lack of reasoning behind people's votes against him.

I don't like Garciaing but kts has a point with point one. I recall getting suspected a lot in the past for leaps in my progression of reads, when I didn't take care to articulate how the read morphed. Implosion was in one of the earliest instances of this, Mini 1838. Honestly it's somewhat concerning he didn't think of that himself.

Er.

My memory of that game with respect to you amounts to iirc I had a medium-strong scumread on you early on then later flipped it to a strong townread? I looked back and skimmed it and yeah that's basically what happened. I have no idea what parallel you're trying to draw. Progression can mean a ton of different things; in this case I was referring to KTS's flip on tchill, which I'd already mentioned. I'm really not sure what me having misread you in a game a year and a half ago based on something in a particular category of tells has to do with me reading someone based on something most likely completely different but in the same category now?

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lolpls I don't recall you being one of the ones to push me on that, jimny christmas for remembering some rando <5 years old game so well you don't remember that one well at all? I got an inno on you n1! Anyway what happened was I started doubting my townread of Grendel and came uder fire for it because there was "no progression". I ended having to explain the missing steps in my logic. And wtf how can progression have multiple meanings, does it just have those because it's convenient for you?

The main thing I remember from that game is me tunneling boring. And I mean. Reads progression has one meaning but can refer to a lot of different things... reads changing, or strengthening, or flipping based on different pieces of information. And a tool being wrong once doesn't mean that it's not worth using. There's a reason fferyllt has the title titan of trajectory. Trajectory is basically another word for progressions.

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Anyway.

Don't especially like the havo wagon (although it seems to have died now), but need to look at luca's post more closely. Don't understand why there are only two people voting mumble. Don't understand why there are three people voting ausuka.

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Luca's defense of me feels possibly white-knighty. He mentions me a few times, saying a number of things that make sense as reasons to mildly townread me, and then has me as his second-strongest townread and uses the wagon on me as a focal point to vote havo and also attack kts. Still only has me as a town lean and not as town so it might just be that his reads are weak overall?

The whole idea of generally decrying a wagon always seems weird and he is attacking specific people on it but it still feels like a line of reasoning that's really easy/convenient to fake as scum. Catch up on thread, see wagon that is clearly bad, talk loudly about that wagon and use it to pressure people who made unjustified votes. It's sort of an easy thing to talk about. But it's really strange that he goes after kts and havo and thinks mumble is town who doesn't give a fuck. I'd like to hear why he thinks that about mumble.

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Hmm. Didn't know trajectory = progression, thought trajectory had more to do with gamestate overall

Maybe. Idk, language is imperfect.

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Luca's a fine wagon. I sort of see what Maria is saying too with Luca's lines of reasoning just not feeling real, though my hangup there is that I'm pretty sure I've been wrong about similar reads to that kind. But I still think his defense of me is off. His response clears it up a little but meh.

I still would rather lynch mumble right now. I'm in no rush to end the day, and I'd ideally like more from mumble and katherine before it ends regardless of who we lynch (and also from hopkirk now). I disagree that the day is stalling. If it does end I wouldn't object to lynching any of mumble/luca/maybe KTS but I have conflicted feelings about him. Also maybe katherine or hopkirk but I don't think there's been much interest in those slots.

Cedrick/gamma/ausuka are solidly town (ausuka is waning a bit but still really liked her early posting). Creature/Tchill/Maria form the next tier, then Havo who is town based on entirely unsubstantiated gut, then the the rest are current scum pool. Hopkirk is null, katherine has inklings in both directions but can't really feel confident in a sort without more. Luca/KTS I've explained. Mumble I'm half just voting because his vote on me is really terrible. But I also think the kind of lurking he's been doing is the scummy kind. It's not just policy. He's strictly avoided having to comment meaningfully on anything ongoing, in a way that goes beyond just refusing to explain his reads.

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Luca's a fine wagon. I sort of see what Maria is saying too with Luca's lines of reasoning just not feeling real, though my hangup there is that I'm pretty sure I've been wrong about similar reads to that kind. But I still think his defense of me is off. His response clears it up a little but meh.

I'm becoming skeptical about your stance on this.

You admit that my responses '

clear it up a little

' so what continues to be the problem here? I wasn't so much defending you as attacking Kill for a poor vote and weak reasoning.

What isn't real about my lines of reasoning?

I mean, it basically clears up that your reads weren't that strong but the underlying sentiment is still there that it feels like an easy tact for scum to take to gain credit with me and launch a couple of easy attacks. It feels sort of 1-dimensional to look at a wagon that's bad and go off of that. There's also a degree of gut.

The thing about things not feeling real is entirely a tonal thing about the way that your logic works... like I said it's something that reminds me of some other reads I've had in the past but idr on who or how accurate this kind of sentiment is in general. A piece of it is that you're repeatedly using this sort of high-level-to-low-level reasoning line that just looks like scum trying to look for things that they can use to give reasons for their reads. You sort of do it with my wagon, and then you do it again with 851 and 854 which just looks like you're yelling out to the town "hey everyone, i'm going to go investigate these three people because they're suspicious! oh look, one of them looks like scum in their recent posting!"

It reads like you care a lot that other people see that you have reasoning about things, if that makes sense. It might not bc it's late and I've been really unusually tired today.

I'm moving to a new apartment on Saturday so will likely be doing a bunch of packing tomorrow and Friday and then moving on Saturday and Sunday. Depending on how drained I am I might fall behind a bit but etc.

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Busy packing and tired etc.

To respond to a bit of luca's post: responding to the points that I made doesn't mitigate the feeling that the play makes a lot of sense for scum to do/is a convenient line to take. And giving reasoning is fine, the problem is that it feels like that reasoning is sort of being focused in a way that makes it look like luca cares a lot about people seeing that he is giving reasoning which would also make a lot of sense from luca-scum who is trying to differentiate himself from my wagon.

And this:

I'm puzzled why you seem to be more troubled by my defence of you than of the wagon itself, which you have also stated was bad.

You'll note that two of my scumreads were involved with my wagon...

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I want to hear how Cedrick and Implosion read each other.

Town. In short, a lot of the indignance he's displayed would be really difficult to fake as scum, e.g. 371 makes no sense to me as either scum->town or scum->scum

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Welp.

Spent today moving into apartment. Still have work to do.

VOTE: Luca

Can claim if I need to but would rather not and might only be checking game sporadically for the next ~24h and would rather just lynch Luca.

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i choose to blame this entirely on screenplay

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If you want to nominate this game or any people in it (moderator or players) for a scummy, please do!