Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[Nero Cain]

poor MUer

[Brigand Vvulf]

Look, you're town, so I'm going to let you in on the sad thing about these large games. It takes 11 to lynch. There's probably 5 scum, leaving 16 townies. That means if six townies decide to play The Lone Ranger and go off on their own, we would be unable to lynch anyone the scum didn't want us to lynch. In point of fact,

even if the person you are voting is scum

this is true - with 5 scum, there's enough we could split our vote between scumbags and still not get anywhere.

In short, Lone Ranger votes like these rarely accomplish something, even if they happen to land on scum. So try to sell us, or try to work with us. Nero's posts legit aren't great, but something like this isn't really going to sell us. It's a weak vote, that puts no pressure on Nero (because he needs 10 more to get lynched) and doesn't really even have bullet points for him to address (and potentially make himself look scummy). It's effectively a non-post due to game size.

If this was a micro things like this can work, because there's so few people that just putting a vote out there is important, but in a game like this you aren't even 10% of a lynch wagon. So please, lets work together.

I was really hoping we wouldn't resort to cases this game, but

ask and thou shall receive my friend

I just ISO'ed nero again. The issue I see with nero are that A) he's appearing to look active without really contributing anything of value to advance gamestate; B) he likes to dip in discussions that don't produce meaninful results that could then leads to reads; C) instead opting to take a lot of neutral stances then backing away from the discussion. D) There's also the over the top self-awareness, the unnecessary abrasiveness in dismissing scum reads on him, and in general being consioucs and reactive when confronted with the slightest of pressure. (but this could be a playstyle/gimmick so less emphasis on this part)

A.
1. 1105 pre-emptive discrediting while responding accusations
2. responding to ausuka's TR on creature, but offering no original opinion
3. 1258 dismisses the tchill wagon but approaches it from a wierd side angle while responding to grey, offers an unimpressive lurker isn't always scum defense, no opinions on people on the wagon

B.
1. with regard to ausuka's town read on creature
2. with regard to tchill being scum, leaving him a spot to join the wagon later if needed

C.
there are lots of exampes but the one that stood out was in 1090 when he offered an opinion but didn't pursue it any further

D.
1. I was offput by his consious effort to shake off the early SRs on him
2. A major proponent is the back and forth with toranaga with the absurd amount of OMGUS and jumping to the conclusion that tora must be scum, examples of this would be in 1134 where he discredits for seemingly non reason, and in 1248 where he mentions that scum could be sheeping tora with wagons but takes no initiative to spot any names
3. self-awareness re: beeboy 1090
4. responses to cheeky, etc

[GreyICE]

@Toranaga - I just asked a specific question about his most recent interaction with you.
ISO me for it - I don't have a long ISO.

@Grey - I...don't lurk as scum...?
Okay, I get your point now.

Oh cool, I was certain I remembered you as lurker scum. Although I'd call this game one of the best examples of active lurking I've ever seen. Your first 40 posts probably have less real content in them then I see in one or two random posts from you here (although if you are pulling the wool over my eyes, GJ. I don't buy it though, you're town).

Toranaga is being replaced and may no longer post.

Damn it, I hope it was something derpy. I was starting to enjoy having him around.

Pedit: Whoof. Response in a sec. That's a post alright.

[Nero Cain]

oh boi

[CheekyTeeky]

......................

[Ausuka]

That justification seems very weak. What about the post is "super townie"?

it looks genuinely uninformed. like, I don't see someone who knows every alignment writing that.

All he's doing in that post is making a case on me.
How does that look genuinely uninformed?

If you don't see it now, I doubt I'll be able to convince you tbh. It looks like the kind of thing town comes up with when they're actually trying to find scum. I think scum would be more likely to push easier targets for reasons that are easier to think of.

Where's the duck?

[Ausuka]

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Not sure if anyone's already said this, but... no.

[Ausuka]

@Toran/Nero: please townread each other.
VOTE: Panoptican
First five Tchill votes are still nice. It gets a bit worse as it goes on.
Hey Tchill, I asked you one question and you didn’t answer it. I dislike it when people don’t answer my questions. (ok Brian)
Thor’s Screen interaction isn’t great.
I’ll sheep Chara/Elli unless it’s on a strong townread.

I do kinda like this vote but I don't see why we need to derail a perfectly good tchill wagon.

[GreyICE]

Spoiler: BVV post

Look, you're town, so I'm going to let you in on the sad thing about these large games. It takes 11 to lynch. There's probably 5 scum, leaving 16 townies. That means if six townies decide to play The Lone Ranger and go off on their own, we would be unable to lynch anyone the scum didn't want us to lynch. In point of fact,

even if the person you are voting is scum

this is true - with 5 scum, there's enough we could split our vote between scumbags and still not get anywhere.

In short, Lone Ranger votes like these rarely accomplish something, even if they happen to land on scum. So try to sell us, or try to work with us. Nero's posts legit aren't great, but something like this isn't really going to sell us. It's a weak vote, that puts no pressure on Nero (because he needs 10 more to get lynched) and doesn't really even have bullet points for him to address (and potentially make himself look scummy). It's effectively a non-post due to game size.

If this was a micro things like this can work, because there's so few people that just putting a vote out there is important, but in a game like this you aren't even 10% of a lynch wagon. So please, lets work together.

I was really hoping we wouldn't resort to cases this game, but

ask and thou shall receive my friend

I just ISO'ed nero again. The issue I see with nero are that A) he's appearing to look active without really contributing anything of value to advance gamestate; B) he likes to dip in discussions that don't produce meaninful results that could then leads to reads; C) instead opting to take a lot of neutral stances then backing away from the discussion. D) There's also the over the top self-awareness, the unnecessary abrasiveness in dismissing scum reads on him, and in general being consioucs and reactive when confronted with the slightest of pressure. (but this could be a playstyle/gimmick so less emphasis on this part)

A.
1. 1105 pre-emptive discrediting while responding accusations
2. responding to ausuka's TR on creature, but offering no original opinion
3. 1258 dismisses the tchill wagon but approaches it from a wierd side angle while responding to grey, offers an unimpressive lurker isn't always scum defense, no opinions on people on the wagon

B.
1. with regard to ausuka's town read on creature
2. with regard to tchill being scum, leaving him a spot to join the wagon later if needed

C.
there are lots of exampes but the one that stood out was in 1090 when he offered an opinion but didn't pursue it any further

D.
1. I was offput by his consious effort to shake off the early SRs on him
2. A major proponent is the back and forth with toranaga with the absurd amount of OMGUS and jumping to the conclusion that tora must be scum, examples of this would be in 1134 where he discredits for seemingly non reason, and in 1248 where he mentions that scum could be sheeping tora with wagons but takes no initiative to spot any names
3. self-awareness re: beeboy 1090
4. responses to cheeky, etc

I'm not necessarily saying full length cases type of thing, I'm more saying a give and take. Like, one of the wagons around here must be on scum. Just mathematically, right? If it's 14:5 or 15:4 (I don't know how gunners are in balance) then almost certainly someone got something right at some point. Reach out to them and offer them support.

Like here, for instance. You are saying that Nero Cain is being hostile and argumentative, but that he's not offering anything of real substance. Like dismissing the Tchill wagon without examining it, either to really see if Tchill was scum, or to see if anyone voting him was scum. Or just throwing out the platitude "scum is on the wagon" without bothering to say who is scum. He's also sensitive to discussions of him without offering much to any other discussion. That's a pretty decent reason to vote him, it's true.

I'd like to toss out there that Tchill has even less substance.

Here's his ISO.

Go on, take a look. When I say he's said nothing substantial about anything in the game, it's true. Now I'd be willing to consider a Nero Cain vote, but look at what I said. If I vote NC, then I have to be able to sell townies on moving to NC as well. Otherwise scum get to pick whether they support Tchill or NC, and push the one they want to go through through. And right now I think most of the players voting TChill aren't going to move to a player who is playing like Tchill, but slightly better.

Do you think NC is a better choice for scum than Tchill?

[Brigand Vvulf]

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

[MariaR]

so many...PAGES

[Ausuka]

poor Ausuka

I think the way centipede handled elli's SR is towny.

[Ausuka]

I didn't mean to quote that but ok.

[Thor665]

If you don't see it now, I doubt I'll be able to convince you tbh. It looks like the kind of thing town comes up with when they're actually trying to find scum. I think scum would be more likely to push easier targets for reasons that are easier to think of.

I can understand the concept of scum seeking easier fish to fry (though would suggest since I'm gunning for him he's at least slightly obligated to engage).
But how does the 'genuinely uninformed' part play into that idea? They appear to be different things, no?

Did you just mean 'scum wouldn't attack Thor, they'd pick an easier target' when you said 'genuinely uninformed'?

[GreyICE]

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

This is where we run into a philosophical difference. I don't lynch for information, I lynch to kill scum. If Tchill flips scum, then the information I've gathered is "the scumteam is down a member". That's a big disadvantage to be at on day 1. Not insurmountable, but everything gets a little bit harder for them. Easier for power roles to catch them, less members to pull gambits or counterclaim townies, just less wiggle room in general.

Plus I'm not convinced Nero Cain gives us that much information. Unless you're saying tchill is playing so badly his buddies are bussing him for town cred, at which point... eh, I'll take a scum lynch.

If the tchill wagon keeps chugging, would you consider joining? I've seen literally nothing to make me unvote him so far. I'd definitely consider helping you on NC, especially over some of the wagons I consider low quality (Centipede or Brian Skies), the fact that tchill is literally the only serious wagon happening right now does give me pause.

[Ausuka]

If you don't see it now, I doubt I'll be able to convince you tbh. It looks like the kind of thing town comes up with when they're actually trying to find scum. I think scum would be more likely to push easier targets for reasons that are easier to think of.

I can understand the concept of scum seeking easier fish to fry (though would suggest since I'm gunning for him he's at least slightly obligated to engage).
But how does the 'genuinely uninformed' part play into that idea? They appear to be different things, no?

Did you just mean 'scum wouldn't attack Thor, they'd pick an easier target' when you said 'genuinely uninformed'?

No, that's not what I was going for. The case feels like it'd be too overdone if he was scum? Like, I find the idea of scum actually going through your posts and trying to find a narrative like that that's kinda stretchy and not convincing very unlikely.

[Thor665]

That's what I'd expect scum to do.
I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

[GreyICE]

Huh, that's actually reasoning I follow. Not agree with, but follow.

That's what I'd expect scum to do.
I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

Eh, confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. I've seen much more made out of much less.

[Thor665]

I mean, we can agree that scum *do* go in too deep semi-often right?
Because the only way it's the town tell you're painting it as works is if they don't, or less often than town in a noticeable ratio - are you claiming that?

[Ausuka]

That's what I'd expect scum to do.

Eh, ok. Personally I'd expect scum to try and find a case that's convincing and would lead to a lynch, not try and make a post like that. Like, it's a lot of effort to put in for a post that basically gives you 0 reward.

I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

meh.

[Thor665]

Huh, that's actually reasoning I follow. Not agree with, but follow.

That's what I'd expect scum to do.
I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

Eh, confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. I've seen much more made out of much less.

Agreed, but when they don't it's a good town tell.
I don't think the reverse is true or arguable.

[Nero Cain]

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

I think this is all kinds of bad. Its very much lining up lynches/saving Tchill and/or a manipulative post to get ME to vote tchill.

[GreyICE]

THAT on the other hand, is a fucking bullshit response. You think Brigand Vvulf is the master manipulator?

Vote: Nero Cain

[GreyICE]

So Nero, tell me. Did Mastermind Brigand Vvulf intend to:

- Line up a lynch of Tchill into you or you into Tchill?
- Save his scumbuddy Tchill from death?
- Convince you to vote poor innocent townie Tchill in a fit of blatant survivalism?

Inquiring minds wish to know.

[Nero Cain]

So Nero, tell me. Did Mastermind Brigand Vvulf intend to:

- Line up a lynch of Tchill into you or you into Tchill?

- Save his scumbuddy Tchill from death?
- Convince you to vote poor innocent townie Tchill in a fit of blatant survivalism?

Inquiring minds wish to know.