Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[Spiffeh]

All I know is these wagons seem to snowball very quickly. Interested to see if the same people are consistently the 2-5th votes.

Tchill why did you feel the need to say this? Wouldn't this kind of tell use all of it's utility when it was made public knowledge that this is something you're paying attention to?

[Gorkington]

do you believe any scumread that tn has been pushing this game?
his reasoning for tchill is basically the following:
i) "Do something to help town if you ever want to get off this list"
ii) "I've fully scumclaimed with gif related before, so, ah, I'm really feeling like there's scum between tortuga and nochill." - which basically means because tora posted a gif joking about scumclaiming, that means for some reason one of tchill and tora is scum? which really makes absolutely no sense.
iii) "I mean, I wanna lynch it just for this kinda thing lol
anyone who ends a post with lol is scum in my book lol"

for him to then say:

No. tchill is today's wagon, no deviation allowed, absent a literal scum claim.

just feels like such a ridiculous level of confidence for someone who is pushing someone based on them not doing enough, tora doing something which is 100% independent of tchill which should not be influencing his read whatsoever and an awkward post. i just dont really believe that he would be that confident and i feel like ii) and iii) are probably just complete scum bullshit.

Scumreads
11. GreyICE (largely based on personal dislike, but is also based in difference in behavior between this game and games where GreyICE replaced into townslots)

Strong Scumreads
9. Quick (kicking up a huge fuss in the thread over nothing and being a distraction from any and all play, trying to claim towncred by pretending to not notice Mafia Gunner's inability to be voted, and overall annoyance with playstyle)

its also really weird that his main justification for both of these reads is openly "i dislike both of these players".

i feel like i could pick apart a ton of other things if i had more time.
but i also feel like his reaction to centipede is really likely scum and probably links him to maria.
i think he would protest more as town if the link was wrong once it was pointed out too. instead he just kind of awkwardly shrugged it off when he was pretty overly annoyed by the premise of the maria read in the first place.

[Brigand Vvulf]

it seems like several people pointed out nero is town based on meta; meta is krap but due diligence gotta be paid i suppose

Elli isn't a paragon nom because he uses a machine every single game. you realize that, right? if this wasn't an organic read he would have told me that.
VOTE: Maria

could it be... the alphaGO of mafia?

I, for one, welcome our new bot overlord

[Srceenplay]

I got busy yesterday.
I can still do it but don’t know if it is relevant atm.

[Centipede Syndrome]

@chara, if you and elli are scumreading maria and its just based on regular scumhunting, can we get some unpacked reasoning then as to why?

sorry Gork. he didn't tell me why. i've barely spoken to him since, either. :<
also Elli hates cases. i can try to get him to tell me but he really just does want to be sheeped. i guess my job is to town it up so players will listen based on his reputation alone. :/


also i like the Panopticon case.

[Gorkington]

do you feel confident in maria being scum independent of elli's read on her?

[Hopkirk]

-Wagon energy is building on me because assorted (mostly scummy) people are saying they don't like me but not voting me.

I think the operating definition of "scummy" is "doesn't townread Hopkirk"

Didn't you also say that you thought I was scum when I townread Nero/Brian despite them scumreadin me? If so then you know your comment is untrue.

-Good wagon building involves actually pushing the wagon/me. You've been voteparking without generating content that makes a wagon form.
-On 1136: given my vote justification is very clearly 'you aren't contributing anything new', it's pretty obvious my problem with you only given reads when directly asked is that it's an example of you not contributing anything new. The 'case' is that you've been reactive and done nothing proactive (as of it).
-Your brand of unoriginality is worse because a.) as you've said, yeah because you're on me. That makes it stand out more to me, and b.) nothing you've said has sparked me as having town POV/thought process.

1. And yet you agree a wagon energy is building on you. So...
2. Being reactive and not offering new things are two different issues entirely, and you're basically trying to kind of claim both now. I disagree, there are many points I instigated, and also many new ideas I have presented.
3. I'm sorry you're scum and being reactive and scummy or are town with a very strange and narrow view of the game.

-Wagon energy is building on me because assorted (mostly scummy) people are saying they don't like me but not voting me. You aren't doing anything to push it. Like I said, it feels like you're waiting and hoping it builds from the undercurrent.
-I was claiming you did both from the start. As of the iso i did, you had next to noghting new.
-If you think I'm reactive you aren't reading me. Especially when you're trying to say you aren't. Although people generally find how I look at stuff strange and you might want to do some meta sometime if your problem is with my thinking style.

1. Who are these people specifically?
2. That is provably untrue - from what post did you do the iso and what will you give me to quote a new idea from a post there or before?
3. You are very reactive, you literally just admitted your issue with me was half based on it being about you. If you'd like to call that something other than reactive because you'd like to quibble definitions I'm fine with that. But that's an example of what I mean by reactive.

- We're both aware they exist, why would making a list be helpful for you or a good use of my time?
- The last post I reference in the iso. Clearly.
- You're trying to stretch it into an omgus read when it's based on you being in a poe pool and not doing stuff when I'd have thought you would.

@Toran/Nero: please townread each other.
VOTE: Panoptican
First five Tchill votes are still nice. It gets a bit worse as it goes on.
Hey Tchill, I asked you one question and you didn’t answer it. I dislike it when people don’t answer my questions. (ok Brian)
Thor’s Screen interaction isn’t great.
I’ll sheep Chara/Elli unless it’s on a strong townread.

I do kinda like this vote but I don't see why we need to derail a perfectly good tchill wagon.

That's the exact reason I unvoted. As said in thread.

[Hopkirk]

If you don't see it now, I doubt I'll be able to convince you tbh. It looks like the kind of thing town comes up with when they're actually trying to find scum. I think scum would be more likely to push easier targets for reasons that are easier to think of.

I can understand the concept of scum seeking easier fish to fry (though would suggest since I'm gunning for him he's at least slightly obligated to engage).
But how does the 'genuinely uninformed' part play into that idea? They appear to be different things, no?

Did you just mean 'scum wouldn't attack Thor, they'd pick an easier target' when you said 'genuinely uninformed'?[/quote

Thor going for partial acceptance rather than the obvious refuting point is ok.

That's what I'd expect scum to do.
I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

Why doesn't town push you when they think you're faking content/active lurking? Even if it's exagerated depth.

Huh, that's actually reasoning I follow. Not agree with, but follow.

That's what I'd expect scum to do.
I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

Eh, confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. I've seen much more made out of much less.

Dislike this fanning on conflict between Hop/Thor more than anything Thor's (not) done. You're making it out like It's a 100% read. I don't have a magical program (saw this on a morning skim, not read thoroughly to then).

[Hopkirk]

@Toran/Nero: please townread each other.
VOTE: Panoptican
First five Tchill votes are still nice. It gets a bit worse as it goes on.
Hey Tchill, I asked you one question and you didn’t answer it. I dislike it when people don’t answer my questions. (ok Brian)
Thor’s Screen interaction isn’t great.
I’ll sheep Chara/Elli unless it’s on a strong townread.

Hello? Reasoning please.

It gets a bit worse as it goes on.

why are you being vague instead of direct about the votes you find questionable?

Because he'd have to admit his reason for voting me is mostly bullshit.

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Gork has a good point on counterwagons.
UNVOTE: Pan

Did you mean to quote something else, because this quote isn't really relevant, at all.

Spoiler: grey is towny now

Oh and I absolutely promise to hammer Quick if he's at L-1, regardless of anything. It's pro-town.

it looks like screenplay is not gaining any traction so

VOTE: nero

a couple of his recent posts rubbed me the wrong way

Look, you're town, so I'm going to let you in on the sad thing about these large games. It takes 11 to lynch. There's probably 5 scum, leaving 16 townies. That means if six townies decide to play The Lone Ranger and go off on their own, we would be unable to lynch anyone the scum didn't want us to lynch. In point of fact,

even if the person you are voting is scum

this is true - with 5 scum, there's enough we could split our vote between scumbags and still not get anywhere.

In short, Lone Ranger votes like these rarely accomplish something, even if they happen to land on scum. So try to sell us, or try to work with us. Nero's posts legit aren't great, but something like this isn't really going to sell us. It's a weak vote, that puts no pressure on Nero (because he needs 10 more to get lynched) and doesn't really even have bullet points for him to address (and potentially make himself look scummy). It's effectively a non-post due to game size.

If this was a micro things like this can work, because there's so few people that just putting a vote out there is important, but in a game like this you aren't even 10% of a lynch wagon. So please, lets work together.

You know this game is in a bad state when GreyICE is making sense.

VOTE: Grey

Can we get a Grey wagon going?

1. He refuses to engage with me
   
2. Creature said he can't be TSTBS
   
3. His behavior is Scummy af

No. tchill is today's wagon, no deviation allowed, absent a literal scum claim.

Toranaga is being replaced and may no longer post.

WotM'd day 1, that's a new low.

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

On the other hand, it's actually better to get it out of the way now. If he's scum, he's marked by his team as lynch bait and they will change how they interact with him, which will give us less information than flipping him today. I also agree with GreyICE that the only good scum is a dead scum.

Ah, so you finally decided. So Brigand Vvulf wants to line up the lynch of a poor innocent Tchill, and then lynch poor innocent Nero Cain. Nero, if that's the case, why not vote Tchill? It's not like he's done a damn thing to give anyone in the game a reason NOT to vote him.

See, lining up lynches usually looks like "vote major wagon because it's pretty good, also player X looks scummy we should probably look at player X tomorrow". NOT doing the heavy lifting of making a case and a wagon on you. Oh yeah brother, your posts was complete horseshit.

I'm not sure I want to pursue this over tchill today. But it's something I'm willing to look into tomorrow.

~The Observer

This post is Pan scumclaiming.

[Hopkirk]

I feel in my heart that GreyIce and Bins are town

I feel in my heart that GreyIce and Bins are town

Based on limited reading I feel this

Interested in why you both think both.

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Gork has a good point on counterwagons.
UNVOTE: Pan

???

Seems good to let Tchill play out.

[Hopkirk]

Panoptican is just scum in response to Centy.

[Tchill13]

Idk how Maria could be scum for sure coming from the centi slot. I didn't see anything with a lot of proof or very incriminating from Maria's iso.

[Nero Cain]

I'm pretty on the fence about a Tchill lynch. I'm in the same boat as Hop where I wasn't a fan of the votes but I'm not really fond of his play. lynch him or don't lynch him, I don't really care. But for those on the fence about Tchill I offer you a yummy GreyIce wagon.

[Hopkirk]

Ausuka HI. Why am I town.

your tone is very towny, and you're playing like you did in floral.

pedit: ok I like that!
VOTE: tchill13

Tchill, HI. As another player in Floral, do you think Ausuka sounds legit here?

Hi. Tchill. I'm not caught up by 4ish pages but i'm guessing you didn't respond to this yet.

[Srceenplay]

Idk how Maria could be scum for sure coming from the centi slot. I didn't see anything with a lot of proof or very incriminating from Maria's iso.

I’m going to wait and see what elli says

[Hopkirk]

Hey, Nero, why act like you're not going to get lynched today?

Also, I really can't stand this Tchill guy, I'm still cool with offing him.

-ObserVed

Because Nero isn't going to get lynched today.

Hey, Nero, why act like you're not going to get lynched today?

Also, I really can't stand this Tchill guy, I'm still cool with offing him.

-ObserVed

i think panoptic is my biggest scumread. >.>

It's a good thing we're going to be lynching Pan today then.

it seems like several people pointed out nero is town based on meta; meta is krap but due diligence gotta be paid i suppose

Elli isn't a paragon nom because he uses a machine every single game. you realize that, right? if this wasn't an organic read he would have told me that.
VOTE: Maria

could it be... the alphaGO of mafia?

I, for one, welcome our new bot overlord

tbf, he is town through meta.

[Hopkirk]

Townpool A: Creature/Beeboy/Cheeky/Quick/Brian/Nero/Torn/Ausuka
Townpool B: Brigand/Screen/Gorkington
POE pool (including neutrals): Thor/Spiffeh/Bins/TheWorst/Maria/GreyICE/Panopticon/Centipede/TChill

If you are in my townpools, please help me shrink my POE pool.

[Tchill13]

@hopkirk imo you played a good game in floral and scum if someone's scum from that game you're gonna be a priority to sway. I SR'd a decent amount of the game and could see you being scum with the same play style though. It doesn't come off as genuine imo it comes off as brushing you off.

[Nero Cain]

help me lynch GI and that'll shrink it (and net us a scum)

[Tchill13]

All I know is these wagons seem to snowball very quickly. Interested to see if the same people are consistently the 2-5th votes.

Tchill why did you feel the need to say this? Wouldn't this kind of tell use all of it's utility when it was made public knowledge that this is something you're paying attention to?

I'm not understanding the 2nd question? Does me pointing that out take away it's relevance? Maybe but I doubt scum is afraid of my opinion atm or even bothered with it at all. I highly doubt that statement keeps scum from doing that.

[Ausuka]

It doesn't come off as genuine imo it comes off as brushing you off.

^^^ scum.

[Ausuka]

Townpool A: Creature/Beeboy/Cheeky/Quick/Brian/Nero/Torn/Ausuka
Townpool B: Brigand/Screen/Gorkington
POE pool (including neutrals): Thor/Spiffeh/Bins/TheWorst/Maria/GreyICE/Panopticon/Centipede/TChill

If you are in my townpools, please help me shrink my POE pool.

I think centipede is towny out of those players.

[Hopkirk]

Can you give me an outside perspective on Thor (Nero preferably)?

[Hopkirk]

I'll go for GI before Pan if you do.

[Hopkirk]

@Arc: are you confident enough I'm scum that you wouldn't complain postgame if I shot you?