Mini Normal 2005: Fun With Decimals(game over)

[Zoronos]

It's been a while since I last played, and I feel like there's a joke here that I don't get.

[Zoronos]

Well, what I'm getting at is, it's a bad idea to be confident in early game reads, especially ones THIS early.

Not sure if you are a new player or an alt, and I know how awkward it is as an alt to be asked if you are an alt, so I won't ask you, but I will say that if you are new, you should try to maintain an open mind as much as you can, and that will significantly lower your chance of going down in flames. (I know because I used to do that all the time before I figured this out.)

for the record i asked smart what his read on me was because this post is kind of tmi on me being town

he doesn't seem to consider the chance that fake confidence could come from a wolf

still think kokichi is more likely to flip wolf but either works

VOTE: something smart

Can you explain your thinking here please?
Something Smart's post there struck me as not-alignment-indicating - a fluffy post of a basic mafia truism; that early reads tend to be low quality. What struck you as scummy about it?

[Zoronos]

Nevermind, I'm stupid and it was spelled out later on that page. This is what I get for being slow.

I think your rationale for suspicion here is flimsy; talk to people like they're town is, in my book, NAI.

[Zoronos]

36 is a good post by dunn.

VOTE: ruby

To my read, post 36 seems thin gruel. The post he's quoting,7, seemed to me to be a complete joke post. Construing that as a serious post, then putting someone on the spot to defend a joke post strikes me as bad reasoning.

Why do you feel post 36 is good?
Or... did I miss a joke again, and this exchange was an extended joke I'm not privy too?

[Zoronos]

You misunderstood somehow, post 7 is a nested quote inside of another quote and not what I was drawing attention to

I misspoke, sorry, that's on me.
I meant 16 struck me as a joke post.

7 also struck me as a joke post, but my perception of those both as jokes may be coloring my view of this interaction. 16 seemed like a joke response to 7 also being a joke, so using that as the basis to draw alignment conclusions struck me as... odd?
So I was hoping that Kokichi could explain why he felt those were solid conclusions.

[Zoronos]

@zoro he makes a contradiction. Says una is wolfy then says Asuka's vote on una is a bad vote.

So you are also making the conclusion that was a serious post and not a joke?

It's just 1 of the few contradictions I've seen him make. Contradictions come from scum.

a) Can you point out the others, because I'm not really convinced here.
b) I am inclined to agree with Something_Smart; I see town contradict themselves all the time. I find it NAI.
But, I want to see what's making you come to this conclusion; what other contradictions are pushing you to think Ruby Red is scummy?

[Zoronos]

Dunn is likely town.

Talk to me about this read please. You dropped a similar read earlier about kokichi also being town, and I'm curious if those two reads are tied up together / made for similar reasons.

Or, just talk to me about who you feel is scum.

[Zoronos]

It seems pretty apparent that it's not a joke to me, I think this is just you

I have a hard time squaring the conclusion in it as anything but a joke.
None of them made any sense, and they didn't even make fake-sense. That is, they were so obviously out of left field that they didn't feel like lies to me - they were transparently nonsense.
Yeah, they contradict eachother, but not in a 'Ha ha this is my master plan to appear towny' fashion, more like 'here is just some random bullshit for the sake of being random bullshit'.

[Zoronos]

It seems pretty apparent that it's not a joke to me, I think this is just you

I have a hard time squaring the conclusion in it as anything but a joke.
None of them made any sense, and they didn't even make fake-sense. That is, they were so obviously out of left field that they didn't feel like lies to me - they were transparently nonsense.
Yeah, they contradict eachother, but not in a 'Ha ha this is my master plan to appear towny' fashion, more like 'here is just some random bullshit for the sake of being random bullshit'.

to start off, it wasn't a joke.

let's get something straight - are you saying that what i said doesn't make sense, or are you saying you don't understand it? because most of what i said in that post was that individual things were towny or wolfy. presumably if you're calling what i said nonsensical than you're disagreeing with what conclusions i came to - if not, then it's just that you don't understand how i came to those conclusions.

which is it?

Oh. Well, then I guess I have to retread. And probably owe Dunstral an apology.

I am saying that I don't understand what was in 16, and I don't see how you were coming to any of the conclusions in it that you made.
Here's how I read the things in it: 6 struck me as an RVS vote. 7 struck me as a joke post. I have no idea why you commented on 8. I figured your quote on 11 was a joke response to an RVS vote (similar to post 7), and 14 was mine.
So, yeah, the post struck me as nonsense because I couldn't figure out how you were getting from A to B on the posts you quoted -> the conclusions you made.

Maybe my sense of humour is broken.

[Zoronos]

Zoronos, some of Ruby Red's responses show they didn't consider that a joke post (they explained why responses to 7 and 8 made sense to them) - It's interesting knowing how you saw it though

Yeah, uhh I owe you an apology. Sorry, my bad.

[Zoronos]

[quote="In post 184, MariaR" I don't think I'm bias with my dunnstral scumread here but people townreading him makes me want to take a step back a second don't really know what to do with that slot zzzz.
[/quote]

So, obviously, I was wrong in my analysis of Dunnstral's argument because I started from a bad premise, but my thought process was to ask whether Dunnstral was dumb or scum, and I decided he was simply dumb.
Rather than let it lie that I thought he was town-ish making a poor argument, he engaged me to change my mind.
That strikes me as towny. He is responsibility-seeking rather than responsibility-avoiding.

The other half of this is that I thought Kokichi was scummy for agreeing with Dunnstral; while I understand how Dunnstral could get it wrong on Ruby (oops I was wrong and he was right), I was having a much harder time fathoming how Kokichi could look at that same logic and +1 it in good conscious. I still am not a huge fan of Kokichi's posting, but that was my thought process on the whole matter.

I think the logic on Dunnstral still applies, even if I misunderstood the premise. It's how he behaved in response to my disagreement than moved him from null to lean-town, rather than the source of the disagreement. Not sure if that helps you, but it's how I got where I got.

[Zoronos]

How do you feel about Aus the trs to that slot make me go "huh" because I don't get it very much at all.

So, I tend to lean slightly scummy on people that drop in, make a big post, and then leave (I like seeing both interactive back-and-forths and huge thought-posts). However, her thought process on reaching the Kokichi conclusion mirrored mine, and I hadn't yet specified exactly why I was questioning him, so it feels like she arrived at the same conclusion organically rather than just sheeping my logic. If she's thinking the same way as me, that suggests to me that her alignment is the same as mine. So, my base lean is slightly towny but I want to see more.

I'm at a higher base-suspicion level for Arkangel, since she made a check in "I should catch up" post and then didn't actually inject any content. I've seen perpetual-catching-up from scum more than town, so that's my base suspicion.

[Zoronos]

@199- I'm not sure why you find the style I'm posting in scummy- it's literally just a playstyle thing. And yes, I'm not going to post one wall and then lurk for the rest of the game, you will be seeing more

At the time I wrote the thing I wrote, you had made one post. Changing my mind on this topic is easy; post more.
Let me explain why I find that style scummy, so maybe others can follow along. The scum motivation for drop in -> big post -> peace out is that it makes it easier to avoid interacting with the thread, having discussions, and building consensus with other players. All those things are hard to fake as scum, so putting a big 'reads' post into the thread on occasion immunizes against the accusation of lurking (because the scum can point back to their single huge post and go 'Look, I'm contributing!').

Also, I think you missed the part where my judgement on you was slight town lean, but w/e. I'd rather not dwell on the things that make me doubt my town-leans when the weight of evidence, in my mind, is town over scum. It makes it harder for others to keep up with the actual state of my reads.

Let's talk about scum reads -> Who in your mind is scum other than kokichi? In your last big post, your bottom 4 were lurkers + kokichi. Is it still your opinion that scum are likely lurking it out this game, or has something else grabbed your interest?

[Zoronos]

Up to the point I'm writing this post, Unabombah has felt very tonally off. My post 31 was meant to indicate this but I guess it is very unclear so I don't blame anyone who misinterpreted it.

I have been tonally off from my usual play - town AND scum.
And Ausuka is someone who should be able to tell, even if it has been a while since we last played together.
You'll all notice the difference when it's my day off wednesday.

Mr Bomber -> what is your current state of thinking re: the scum?
Your last few substantive posts have been about town reads, so I'm curious where you're thinking the scum reside.

[Zoronos]

Don't worry, I'll be very clear on my reads so far once I find the time to post.

Any hints? Give me something to work with here.

[Zoronos]

Why are people not replying to me. Except lapsa

I have a hard time parsing your posts. Did you actually have a question for me.

I have a similar problem with Lapsa’s posts, it’s hard for me to follow your guys’ trains of thought.

[Zoronos]

@SS in 267- "Can someone tell me why they thought that post from Ausuka was towny...I mean it was just a list to me" "How do you feel about Aus the trs to that slot make me go "huh" because I don't get it very much at all." "Well duh I looked at the post and it was nothing great"

I have a hard time parsing your posts. Did you actually have a question for me.

I have a similar problem with Lapsa’s posts, it’s hard for me to follow your guys’ trains of thought.

Okay, what's your read on me?

I put you back in the null bucket. My prior read was based on a bad premise, so I'm doing my best to set it aside and investigate elsewhere. I don't want to bias my evaluation because I thought you were scummy before for something it turns out you didn't do.

Also, I have a hard time reading your posts so my instinct is to skip over them. Which I know is bad but I have a hard time reading a flurry of one sentence posts. Conveniently plenty of other people are chatting with you so I don't have to feel too terrible about not sorting the slot directly.

[Zoronos]

Ugh, fuck, hit post too early. Meant to reply to that Ausuka quote thusly. Let's all pretend this in the middle of that last post and that I'm not a failure at forums:

I think you're being overly hard on Maria there. From my perspective, maria was reaching out to her own town reads to explain their town read on you. That's a towny thing to do, in my mind; she's attempting to build cooperation with other players. Town is strongest when it works together, so asking another player to explain a read you don't get should never be a bad thing. It shows an open mind.

[Zoronos]

I get town feelings from Maria, Ausuka, and Dunnstral. I had town feelings on Ruby earlier, but those have degraded slightly. I think she's more on the town side of the dial, but it's a weaker read. I'd like to see her look outside her current 1v1's (she seems, to me, to be mired down in a series of conflicts which don't strike me as super productive).

I have you, Mumble, and Lapsa in my null bucket. I want to nudge Mumble up towards town but frankly I can't bring myself to do it given how little he's posted. What he has posted has struck me as reasonable, but he's a bit thin on the ground so far and hopefully that will change.
Mr Moisto, Arkangel, and Espeonage have no content to speak of, so I have no opinion on them.

I used to feel better about Unabomber, but his refusal to even briefly mention scum reads and his drop-in occasional town reads have me leaning slightly scummy on that slot. That could change easily, but I don't like the recent pattern.

Something_Smart I am having trouble sorting. A lot of what he's written strikes me as reasonable, but the most reasonable stuff is also the most NAI stuff (commentary on town making contradictions, etc). It's the kind of stuff I used to write, so it makes me feel better about him because he thinks like I think. However, that's not a good basis for judgement here because those thought processes are NAI and not directly game related thought processes, so I'm wary that I'm falling into a bias-towards-agreement situation.

Now, I'm clearly in a bit of a predicament, because I'm not seeing as many scum as I'd expect in a game this size. Which is why I asked Ausuka about her feelings in lurkers a page or two ago. If everyone posting seems towny, it stands to reason the not-town are hidden in the folks that just aren't posting.

[Zoronos]

I know you claimed Miller. That doesn't automagically move you off null.
I haven't decided if I believe you yet, and I'm not interested in playing PR bingo about it nor do I feel particularly time pressured to decide if I believe you *right now*.

Talk to me about that Maria read -> why do you think she's scum?

[Zoronos]

'k. I'm not going to be bullied into making a bad or underdeveloped read, so you do you.
You're missing the third option: I don't know yet whether A or B is correct and don't have enough data to judge which is correct, so either at that juncture is premature.
Instantly accepting or instantly rejecting a miller claim is bad play, and I'd hope people would know better.

Can you point out where those Maria posts happened?
I'm curious about this interaction. I have some ~thoughts~ but they'd be premature without seeing specifically what you're referring to.

[Zoronos]

Laziness; my time isn't infinite.
Fine.

2) Because I forgot that Mumble even posted let alone did that or I would've called him out on it.

Catching up for today, but this stood out.

You forgot that I posted? Anything? 9 pages in?

Is this the post you are referring to?

[Zoronos]

That

(read on una)

could change easily, but I don't like the recent pattern.

(..)

Now, I'm clearly in a bit of a predicament, because I'm not seeing as many scum as I'd expect in a game this size.

perhaps you should stop selling townreads so cheaply

Do you think I have a scum in my town reads list?

I feel pretty good about most of my actual town reads at this juncture.
It's the nulls list + lurkers that currently concerns me.

[Zoronos]

Mr Bomber -
re: Maria - What do you think of Maria's reads so far? In your post above, you're having trouble bucketing her, so I'm curious if you agree / disagree with her reads, or if there are specific ones that stand out to you as wrong?

All these summaries, other than Ruby, strike me as based on personal-meta for the players involved. Does anything specifically within this game stand out to you as scummy from the players you're mentioning?
Alternatively, can you talk to me about what you find scummy in Ruby's posts?

[Zoronos]

I guess it's definitely possible for Zoronos to be scum, but I'm not really seeing it. I was expecting him to do more with the question about my scumreads, though; he kinda just asked me and then ignored my answer. I agree that there's scum in the lurkers, but then again, there's always scum in the lurkers.

330 looks towny at first glance but I'll probably get a better read on unabombah once he posts whatever he's planning to w/ the reread.

I disagree here on 330. It struck me as vague handwaves at meta. Someone playing different than their meta isn't necessarily scummy, and is a weak substitute for an actual scum read. 330 made me feel worse about unabomber than I did previously.
It also stood out to me that his one non-meta read was on Ruby, but I'm not sure what that means yet other than it's specifically different than the rest of his post.

I'm very curious what will come from his promised post tomorrow.

Did I not address your answer about the lurkers? I thought I did, but I might have forgotten. I wanted to see if you were seeing what I was seeing - that it felt like there was probably a scum or two in the lurk-squad. You replied in the affirmative, but I don't really know what to do about that until the lurkers actually post.

[Zoronos]

@something_smart

I want to talk about Mumble for a second. Not because I'm at a conclusion yet, but because I want to get this reasoning written down, and you might have some useful feedback. I was hoping he'd come back and confirm I was looking at the right post, but he didn't, so w/e.

I asked him about his Maria read last night specifically because he seems to be viewing the game through a lens centered on his own play. His objection to Maria seemed based on Mumble not being able to fathom someone missing one of his posts on accident, ergo the only remaining explanation was that Maria had noticed his Miller claim then lied about not seeing it (ergo, scum). His only non-joke post at the time of his objection was his miller claim. By my read, they had a joke interaction on page-2 or so, but that's not conclusive evidence (to me) that she actually saw the Miller claim.
Moving on, his objection to me was that he couldn't fathom the notion that I hadn't made up my mind on him as a player yet. By virtue of claiming miller, I was required to have a positive or negative sort on him, immediately. He picked his name out of my larger post on the entire field. Again, this suggests he's viewing the game strongly through a notion that everyone should have an opinion on him by now, and be paying high levels of attention to his posts.

This seems to indicate that he is operating under a high degree of projection / illusion of transparency. An town miller in his seat could, knowing full well he is actually a miller, presume that everyone else obviously knows that same thing (and being important, would be paying attention to all his posts). Projection and illusion of transparency with a bias towards 'clearly I am town' in my experience tend to come from, well, town.

Obviously, there's a other side of the coin situation where a scum fake claims miller, tries to establish credibility, and then coasts on the claim. His posting is largely self-focused, however, my initial evaluation is that this is less likely since he's basically accusing everyone else of things in a reasoning-from-self fashion, rather than by reflecting on his own posting. He doesn't appear self-conscious *at all*, if any the opposite is true. He wants everyone else to be conscious of him.

[Zoronos]

Why are you asking for feedback on this? You asked for non-directed, open ended feedback on your "reasoning" for not taking a stance. Why not just say "Here's where I'm at" and take a stance, instead of presenting two possibilities and asking for feedback? That comes across as you positing a stance and seeing which one you should solidify.

Why am I asking for feedback? Because talking to other players is more effective than just shouting my opinions into the void.
Also, you are completely mischaracterizing that post. I very much took a stance in it.
Do you need me to make that stance more explicit?

[Zoronos]

Just tell me why Smart, specifically.

Oh, that's easy.
Based on his earlier statements about town players making contradictory statements, he seems like the sort of mafia player that would understand a read based on behavioral patterns and cognitive biases and what those biases suggest about alignments, and have a good opinion on whether or not this specific read fit the facts.

[Zoronos]

Oh boie. Lapsa could be town btw. He is just pushing the wrong buttons. Why are you being reactive?

Lapsa could be town, or you believe Lapsa is town? I want to be sure I'm clear on your read here. Your phrasing is throwing me off a tad.

I don't want to jump into the middle of the discussion that something_smart is trying to have with you, but I'm really confused about your basis for that scum read. If you'd like to clarify that, I'd appreciate it; I don't understand what you mean by "especially how he is forming his town reads".

[Zoronos]

The more I think about this the weirder it seems

Did you read post 388? Why are you accusing me of being 'reactive'?

So, as an outside reader, my initial reaction was 'Reactive? That seems like an odd claim', then I went through it again and I can see a line where someone could read the back and forth between you and lapsa about meta, and conclude you were reacting to Lapsa's meta-based accusation by calling him scummy and voting him. Under that viewpoint, you are being reactive.
However! I'm left wondering how that's scummy. 'reactive' and 'scummy' aren't synonyms. Reacting to a scummy argument by calling it scummy isn't bad.

So, my question to Arkangel here wouldn't be 'why are you calling me reactive', it would be 'why do you think my response to Lapsa's arguments was wrong / scummy' or 'why is Lapsa's meta argument correct'. By indicting you for responding as you did, clearly something about either the initial proposition from lapsa or the response from you should be particularly town / scummy (respectively), and I'm really curious what her opinion on those things is, because it's not clear to me at all.

[Zoronos]

Asuka - What's wrong with having reads early? Your case here is leaving me a tad befuddled. Why is Kokichi stating stances scummy?

[Zoronos]

I agree I’m probably missing context; is this read based on meta expectations, or am I misunderstanding?

[Zoronos]

Why do you think that?

[Zoronos]

Interesting. I'm having trouble getting my head around a lot of her reads.
I'm slightly surprised that you came to that conclusion so quickly.

Hopefully when she answers the questions I posed earlier I'll have a more definite read on the slot and we can discuss it further.

[Zoronos]

I... umm... I second that 'What?'

Mind clarifying that a bit? Because that seems too blatant to just be straight up buddying, I figure there has to be something I'm missing there.

[Zoronos]

Got overwhelmed yesterday, and I want to make a good long post, so that got delayed..sry for everyone who was anxiously waiting for it.
It will come within this week though. (no refunds on pre-paid tickets..)

*checks watch*

Which now sheds some pretty shitty light on kok for both not voting and not being pointed in the way zoro was.

What?

I feel like Espeonage just read the stuff on that current page, and was looking for things to react to, and because I was more verbose in my question (or rather, because I was more transparent about what I was thinking while asking the question) figured he could draw a distinction between the two. I'm not sure it's a meaningful distinction here.

[Zoronos]

@everyone not voting, how about you put a vote down in your very next post

You can't make me! You're not my dad!

VOTE: UnabombaH

Oh. Oops.

Not a fan of the lack of content across multiple checkins.
Might also vote Arc; I don't see the reasoning for the couple town reads that pronounced in the last page or two and am really curious about the answers to my earlier questions.

Still need to bucket some of the nulls.

[Zoronos]

I want to interject into the Dunstrall v Lapsa discussion, because this discussion seems very opaque, but I’m not even sure what question to ask that would clarify things.

Maybe this: Lapsa, what specifically were you accusing Dunnstral of with regard to his meta?

[Zoronos]

This is townUnah. Long time no play, how you doin’, Unah?

You’re really going to have to explain this one to me. I haven’t seen him produce anything all game other than a couple early surface town reads and posts promising he’d eventually play without actually doing so.
How does that scream Town to you?

[Zoronos]

I could definitely understand a Null read, giving benefit of the doubt, but Town perplexes me.

[Zoronos]

How does that scream scum to you? He says he’ll be posting a long post. I trust him to do so. Nothing he has done isn’t something that I couldn’t just see him doing as town. Unah’s a player that i town read unless I have reasons to scum read him.

Because he hasn't made a single scum read all game; if he's not trying to solve the game, he's not town. He kept promising to make posts that would have scum reads in them and... didn't. It's a stupid and facile thing to lie about, but if the players let you get away with it repeatedly then they let you get away with it.

This isn't a topic where it would be hard to change my mind, but until I see him do something to actually help find the scum instead of making repeated feet dragging posts, I'm going to keep challenging him on it.
Town want to solve the game. They want to find the scum. Scum don't. If a player is refusing to find the scum, well, I have some bad news about their alignment.

[Zoronos]

I want to interject into the Dunstrall v Lapsa discussion, because this discussion seems very opaque, but I’m not even sure what question to ask that would clarify things.

Maybe this: Lapsa, what specifically were you accusing Dunnstral of with regard to his meta?

eat a rope

VOTE: Zoronos

You are vexatious.

[Zoronos]

Also, @Zoro - not only is it town’s job to find scum, it’s their job to have other townies see that they are town, and to find other townies as well. A lot of players push for lack of scum hunting, but sometimes early game it’s really hard to, and as town, I tend to force a lot of things to try to finish the puzzle without enough pieces.

That’s why i don’t see lack of scum hunting is AI this early in the game.

I absolutely see scum hunting as alignment indicating, but even going from this perspective, his 'town hunting' has been exceedingly superficial. He pronounced two early reads on Dunn and Kokichi then dropped off the radar entirely until 330.

I respect a position of 'I'm not sure yet' and realize premature reads are dangerous (as is being pushed into a read, since such reads are liable to be low quality and cause anchoring-bias). In that case I'd expect to see effort to sort out those reads and move from a state of "I'm not sure" towards a state where they are sure. But I don't see that; Una isn't talking to or engaging people to sort them out or reduce his uncertainty.

[Zoronos]

This is like talking to a brick wall, so moving on to a new topic.
Morality and Espeonage - what are you thoughts on who is scum?

[Zoronos]

So... who on that list do you actually scum read?
Espeonage it seems like you gave half a scum read on, but you finished with 'will need to be aware of him'. What does that mean here?
Do you scum read maria, or just lack of a town read?
Ruby Red wasn't even a read, just it reminding you of your own posting.

[Zoronos]

Well, if you want to go deeper into my uselessness, I'm very 50/50 on my townreads this game too!
Espeonage has "half a scumread" because he simply hasn't posted much. I have the luxury of knowing he has been sick, and therefore his activity could NAI.
I think he might be the kind of player who is capable of flying under the radar while lurking though - that is why I pointed it out.

For the lack of actual scumreads, I'd say the LEAST TOWNY reads for me are Ruby Red, Lapsa and Maria.

I'm not asking you to be useless, and constructing a 'woe is me everyone ignore me I'm useless' narrative is itself scummy (because it's responsibility-avoidant).
So, if you're town, help me out here, and show me some thought process.

[Zoronos]

Uhhh oops?
I didn't notice the large post somehow directly above this one. I need to give that a think.

[Zoronos]

You can I came to very different conclusions regarding Mumble.
What did you think of my rational for a town read on the slot?

If he's brazen scum, he's going really aggro on the hope to be left alone.

[Zoronos]

I'm not sold yet.
But he's making progress away from lurk-scum.

[Zoronos]

Can y'all talk to me and not about me and maybe I can play my way in.

You wanna help me lynch UnabombaH for lurking and /or Arkangel for lurking then making one flurry of kinda questionable posts then disappearing again? (I realize that should have commas but putting the commas in makes it look weird forgive me for my poor grammar)

Alternatively, what do you think about Morality hard defending Una when Una had basically no game posts?

[Zoronos]

Dunnstal, what do you think of Arcangel?
I asked her a question a while ago about her categorization of your play as reactive (and other things), but she never returned to the thread.

[Zoronos]

Any of you given thought to the fact that Arc is abrasive by nature and regularly incorrectly wagoned?

I haven’t played a game of mafia in like 2years, so I wouldn’t know.
Of the many adjectives I could choose for Arc’s posting this game, I’m not sure I’d use abrasive.
It would be a quick iso, she’s barely posted, give it a read and tell me if you think scummy or towny?

[Zoronos]

We have had a lot of people basically not playing, which makes it hard to get traction anywhere.

I still want to lynch Unabomber, who has basically produced a read on one player all game (a scum lean on the claimed miller), didn't vote them, then fucked off again.
The Worst is at least posting, which is better than I could say from Arcangel who slots he's in.

I still don't really want to vote Kokichi (so I'm not har har).

[Zoronos]

if i take it that morality actually can meta read una like he says, that removes the "morality v una w" situation. it no longer makes sense to lynch una over morality. if you want to lynch una, morality is always the better lynch. morality is either defending a wolfbuddy, pocketing a villager, or is a v and is correct.

I want to talk to you about this some, I have been thinking about it ever since Morality initially started defending Una.
Do you think it's scum-Morality trying to get on the right side of history because he / she knows Una's alignment, or just him / her trying to save a friend from a lurk-train?
The former makes me a little hesitant to lynch Una, but damn I really want to lynch players that continually promise to play and then don't. Especially when they're not acting on the one read they have produced this game.

[Zoronos]

Ya if I dont have enough time to make sense d1 I'll try and be extra snazzy d2

What are your reads other than Una, Zoronos?

Full state of game?

Towny
Ausuka
Dunnstral

Slight town
Ruby
MariaR (degraded due to sudden lack of participation once she got semi-consensus called town)
Something_Smart
Mumble
Kokichi (I think my earlier scum read on him was wrong, because it was based on an incorrect input vis-a-vis my read on Dunnstral's post)

????:
Lapsa (He's really frustrating to work with, so I'm trying to avoid conflating scummy and abrasive)
Espeonage (low content, I tried to accomodate his request last night to help engage him into the game, but he didn't do anything with it)
Morality (I have some reservations about his hard defense of Una when Una had done nothing, in my mind, to merit it. And he kept falling back on 'Default town' as his only data point)

Scummy
Arc / you
Una

[Zoronos]

I don't actually HAVE any scumreads this game, so insomuch as Espeonage is near the bottom of my readlist that is correct.

Wait, what?
I maybe have been laboring under the wrong impression of your read state.
Mind giving me a summary of where your head is at?

[Zoronos]

step 1 pick a lurker at random, but make sure you don't choose an actually wolfy lurker
step 2 vote said lurker
step 3 call the wolfteam as anyone not voting or townreading that lurker

and voila, an ms town

Who is the wolfy lurker here?

[Zoronos]

God damnit why are people voting my town reads.
Cut that out.

[Zoronos]

maria

I don't think Maria is scum. Let's go around this again.
I don't think you or Kokichi are either, so really I'm not happy with the current slate of lynch candidates at all.

[Zoronos]

maria

I don't think Maria is scum. Let's go around this again.
I don't think you or Kokichi are either, so really I'm not happy with the current slate of lynch candidates at all.

why do you tr maria

tbh, I don't remember. I'm going to go re-read the ISO and see if I can job my memory.
I had her on my town list pretty early and I don't rightly recall specifically why.

[Zoronos]

tbh, I don't remember. I'm going to go re-read the ISO and see if I can job my memory.
I had her on my town list pretty early and I don't rightly recall specifically why.

Okay, sorry, I went back and read through.
I felt the dialogue I had with Maria back in 184 -> 188 -> 202 was quite productive. We had a discrepency in our scum / town reads but instead of just yelling at eachother about it we talked it over. Fostering unnecessary cooperation is towny, imo.
She also saw a similar problem as I did with the Dunnstral -> Kokichi sequence based on Dunnstal's opinion on Ruby's opening post. If another player sees the same input as me and ends up in the same place as me for similar reasons (without obvious sheeping) that makes me think they're using a similar thought process and so likely have a similar alignment. I don't see scum actively cooperate early to let themselves get 'talked out of' scum reads or work positively with town.

[Zoronos]

Uhhh that should have been quoting a Ruby post, since she / he was the one that requested my read in the first place. Let's all pretend I quoted ruby instead of quoting myself.

[Zoronos]

meant to ask you about kokichi, sorry for the waste of however long this took you

Oh. WELL.

I initially scum read him for agreeing with Dunnstral's bad evaluation of one of your early posts. From my perspective, Dunn was making a poor evaluation, and Kokichi should have known better than to +1 an obviously bad eval (Dunn dumb, Kokichi scum).
Once it was pointed out that I was the one misunderstanding the context of that early post and not Dunnstral, I backed off and re-evaluated things. I moved him back to neutral from there, and since then his thoughts haven't been massively off-base and he's at least contributing to the thread. He strikes me as frustrated town.

Much more so than say Arc or Una (and Morality).
The difference I'm looking to draw between the lurk-squad is this: Espeonage was just absent whereas Arc and Una were mostly absent but the posts they were making when they were around were scummy. Morality hard-defended a player who had posted nothing, and certainly nothing to justify such a rabid defense.

[Zoronos]

I wont AtE here, you do you
But
RUDE

Arcangel's posts were kinda bad, tbh.

But everyone should join me on my clearly awesome unabombah wagon, because he made one inspection-post, called Mumble-the-claimed-miller scummy, didn't vote his only read all game, then fucked off again.

[Zoronos]

Dont think Arc being terrible or flaking is AI
If someone has first hand completed meta hmu

I don't care about meta.

[Zoronos]

oh nvm my mason buddy is the duck not una

still makes sense to lynch morality before una

There's the possibility that Moralty is just dumb, but I understand why you'd think that and I am also worried about it.
But at some level if I see a solid scum case for a player, I'm going to vote that player.

Morality pre-judging the flip based on scum-omniscience is possible, and I understand that, but there still exists a town explanation for his behavior.

[Zoronos]

thoughts on what i've been saying about how his focus this whole day has just been the few votes on him and my scumread on him? how much effort he's devoted to discrediting that over actually scumhunting or having genuine conviction in reads?

tbh? I think you're too close to the issue and not stepping back to see the larger picture because you're invested in the current circumstances of the wagons.
I think both you and Kokichi are players that when pressured become irrational and 'hot' rather than cool. Both of you seem to get whipped up when you perceive that you are being attacked for reasons you consider poorly thought out or otherwise unjust.

His initial focus was off the votes on him, I think. I don't remember the vote state when he agreed with Dunn's opinion vis-a-vis your opening post.

[Zoronos]

I don't care that you don't care about meta.
I know my slot's intentions but not why she went about them the way she did
Meta fills the gap

Cool. Wanna help me kill Una?

[Zoronos]

no, it goes deeper than that

morality apparently has experience with una, enough that he can confidently sort him. if i trust him on this, then this means there's never a world in which una is a wolf while morality is villa. there are only worlds in which they're both villa or morality is wolf with either a una wolfbuddy or hard defending una villa. if you think una is a wolf, it mechanically makes more sense to lynch morality. on morality's villa flip if we trust his read then we can also take it as confirmation that una is villa. if morality flips wolf, then proceed from there.

4 permutations of two people being wolf or villager, remove the "una w morality v" permutation, there are two permutations of morality wolf and one of una wolf, and a morality villa flip can confirm una villa.

1) I have no reason to trust that he can make that sort correctly. Morality flipping green doesn't automatically mean Una is also green.
2) I appreciate the mechanical reasoning there. I really do. But there also exists the scenario where Una and Morality are friends, Morality is just trying to defend una blindly, and is wrong.
I totally understand where you're coming from, I've been worried about a scum-white-knights-town scenario ever since Morality jumped in with the hard defense. But at the end of the day, I have direct evidence of una being scum and only circumstancial / associative evidence for Morality.

I'd lynch Morality before anyone in my town buckets, which, well, I'm not super happy with either wagon currently under consideration since as noted we've got two lynches from my town reads, but I'd rather active scum over maybe scum.

[Zoronos]

Hmmm maybe
Want Morality's read first

Hows about you read Una and Morality and give me your thoughts.
It's a pretty quick set of reads, tbh.

[Zoronos]

Hey Espeonage, what is your read on Una? Scum or town or ?? ?

[Zoronos]

Una obvtown, any intent to vote there today withdrawn

Explain please.

[Zoronos]

I'm not sure why but something here feels... odd. I'm not sure why, how, or what I should be doing about it.

[Zoronos]

When I analyze players to determine their alignment, the main thing I think about is mindset. What is a person's mindset when making a particular post? Is it more likely to come from a villager or from a wolf? Does this person's mindset reveal anything about his or her motivations?

I think a good example of how I apply this practically would be with Arc. A more content-based approach would look at Arc's posts, call them really bad, and say that she's a wolf for them. This mentality falls victim far too easily to lynchbait. In my view, Arc's posts show a very visible villager mindset. She questioned other people's reasons for scumreads. She seemed to have genuine sorting efforts.

I'm going to swing back to this, because I agree that mindset is part of things, but not everything.
Scum must at least pretend to sort, otherwise they're obvious (imo: Una and his one read which he didn't bother to vote before disappearing again). So, here's the mindset question - does Arc's vote and her read match the evidence? I don't really feel that it did, or at least that it was prefunctory.

Likewise, I'm not sure that the worst or Morality's reads on Una match the evidence.
See the following:

Una is a social one and I kinda have a feeling a good few of us know him. Feels like scum!Una would be a lot more hesitant entering the game with such a different tone to normal Una

I've liked his posting based on a skim read, feels like he's reached conclusions rationally and not made tmi assumptions

In summary

Can scum be social? Absolutely. Can scum or town suddenly change 'tone'? Sure, why not.
This read is conflating NAI factors with AI factors.

Why make it? Because he was forced to make it, he stretched to justify something.

Actually...hmm... Hey, The Worst -> Una's one read so far was on Mumble. Do you think he was on base with that read, off base, or wrong-but-well-argued?

[Zoronos]

could be the most pathetic TvT I have ever witnessed

it's so bad that I'm probably just wrong

Following up on this -> are you town reading both Ruby and Kokichi?

[Zoronos]

*sigh*
Hi as the person not voting you, I'd like to have a conversation. Can we do that? Because I'd like that.

[Zoronos]

Why are you super cautious here Zoro?

Fast wagon direction change, little discussion, a self vote, and a player that is non-charistmatic / antagonistic.
Just the last one alone tends to give me pause; I don't trust my own ability to be rational when evaluating somebody that is *trying* to antagonize me, which leads me to wonder how well other people are able to do so.
It's a situation that doesn't make for high read fidelity.

[Zoronos]

But everyone should join me on my clearly awesome unabombah wagon, because he made one inspection-post, called Mumble-the-claimed-miller scummy, didn't vote his only read all game, then fucked off again.

So I'd be a policy-lynch based on the fact that I've been busy IRL?
You did say my few posts were scummy too, but it seems to me that anyone else is willing to vote me just for "lurking"..?

If it were pure policy I’d have been voting Espeonage, who had fewer posts than you until his recent return.
No, this was never policy.

I’ll write more when I’m back at a computer, but a quick skim of the posts that happened overnight looks like you’ve got some scum thoughts. Am I reading this correctly that you’re scum reading The Worst and Ruby currently?
Talk to me about your The Worst read.

I’m putting Ruby aside for the moment since as I mentioned previously I think there was a fair amount of frustration in their posting (and has been all game, from my read on their tone). So I don’t really have a solid basis for theater vs genuine debate other than I lean towards genuine since they seem to have been low level frustrated most of the game.

[Zoronos]

the_worst never answered my question about the mumble read...

[Zoronos]

A red flip from kokichi means it is more likely that Dunn is town because Kokichi +1'ed Dunn's logic on Ruby way back in early D1. Seems unlikely scum would tie to scum that early. Also increases Ruby-town likelyhood.

Need to re-read to derive more conclusions.

[Zoronos]

A red flip from kokichi means it is more likely that Dunn is town because Kokichi +1'ed Dunn's logic on Ruby way back in early D1. Seems unlikely scum would tie to scum that early. Also increases Ruby-town likelyhood.

Need to re-read to derive more conclusions.

I would agree if Dunn reacted to it but the fact he didn't makes it seem like it could come from partners but hey what do I know

I re-read the sequence, and I agree that this is possibly a thing which happened, but I don't think it's probably a thing that happened.
From my read on that flurry of posting, Kokichi +1'ed the logic but by the time Dunnstral made it back to the thread he got bogged down into a discussion with Ruby on the underlying read and a discussion with you on meta-principles (you wanted him to have a read on you by that point in the game).

He didn't seem to notice Kokichi sheeping him 114 until someone brought it to his attention. Once I showed up to accuse Kokichi of being scummy for agreeing 133 Dunn started arguing with me about the validity of the underlying read. That suggests to me he's more concerned about the substance than he is about kokicihi. I can kinda see the world where he's doing the scum-actively-ignoring-his-partners dance, but I don't think it's likely the world we're playing in.

Actually...hmm... Hey, The Worst -> Una's one read so far was on Mumble. Do you think he was on base with that read, off base, or wrong-but-well-argued?

Well argued but unconvincing?
I don't have a strong read on Mumble quite yet (laziness maybe) but the casing feels towny y'know?

This may be overcome by events due to night phase, but he came to opposite conclusions on the slot as I did, so I am either suspicious of his opinions, or curious what I'm missing.
Also at the time was a bit suspicious of you, and he voted you near end-day, so wanted to see how to untangle that bit of my read-pile.
So you're still aboard una-is-town then? I am... uhh... not super convinced.

[Zoronos]

I claim tracker - Morality visited Ausuka

VOTE: Morality

1 shot role cop.

I’m in a very unenviable position.

Catching up - If you're a one shot role cop, why did you not check the claimed miller?

[Zoronos]

Sorry, catching up a little more and realized that was a redundant question.

[Zoronos]

Imo his flip softconfirms Una's alignment, there's some buddying fuckery going on there but I don't see it as SvS--wbu?

I hadn't gotten to the tracker claim when I wrote that stuff, so it was not-up-to-latest-events informed.

I think Mora is the highest probability lynch here today, and if he's scum then Una is more likely town (see: My discussion with Ruby yesterday vis-a-vis buddying / white knighting / why Morality should get lynched first there). If I knew nothing about Morality, I'd say that double scum incidence is low. Knowing that Morality likes to make WIFOM plays, I'd almost discard it and evaluate Una in a vacuum disconnected from him.

I want to re-read Kokichi in depth before someone gets strung up though, and I'm not likely to have a lot of time until late tonight at the earliest to do that. So hopefully we don't speed wagon to day end.
Baring an amazing revelation from kokichi, I have a had time envisioning another end to the day. Because not role copping the Miller with your one shot ability is stupid. 'Scum Miller' just isn't a thing so turning a one-shot role cop into a one-shot cop seems, to me, a no brainer. I don't know Mumble's history, so Morality should probably explain better why precisely he is so confident in his mumble-sorting ability.

[Zoronos]

Cuz Mumble is a miller. Simple as that.
Cuz Mumble is a miller. Simple as that.

How in the world can you claim to know that? 'I believe Mumble is a miller' is a subset of 'I believe Mumble is town', not a superset.
You know who else returns a scum result to cop investigations? Scum.

Okay, let's ask it this way - Why do you believe Morality is town?

[Zoronos]

Does anyone think this?

Sorry, typo, that should have said 'Mumble is town'.

[Zoronos]

I literally just won a game in 3p lylo where a rolecopped Miller was in the game and still got the lynch.

Mafia miller isn’t a thing. Saying you believe someone is a miller in a normal game is he same thing as saying they are town.

I literally just won a game in 3p lylo where a rolecopped Miller was in the game and still got the lynch.Mafia miller isn’t a thing. Saying you believe someone is a miller in a normal game is he same thing as saying they are town.

Why do you believe he is town?

[Zoronos]

I know we need more content but Mora is obvscum all over

At the very least give me some time; I want a chance to read over Kokichi and finish making notes on who he was softing and who he ignored, and I won’t have time to finish that until at least late tonight.

And in the mean time, it doesn’t hurt me to keep an open mind and be thorough.

[Zoronos]

I know I shouldn’t devolve into setup speculation but I really want to.

[Zoronos]

I realize it’s hilarious to lynch the open claim but I’d really appreciate a chance to get to a desktop and write fuller thoughts before we end the day.

[Zoronos]

I know, I’m Captain NoFun. I squared my conscience with being a wet blanket years ago.

[Zoronos]

Everyone has to promise to completely ignore what boon's saying though. Like, he's going to be trying as hard as he can to mess with everyone.

Totally. It’s in his interest to sow confusion and rush an end to the day.

[Zoronos]

VOTE: Morality

I want to give zor a chance to post what he wants to post but even if boon self-hammers i doubt zor is the kill here anyways.

Go ahead. If Boon is causing that much of an issue, I’ll either be dead or write stuff tomorrow.

[Zoronos]

If you are boon, I’ve only played one game with you, and you were town and got d1 lynched over a mechanically certain scum.
It was... impressive and frustrating.

[Zoronos]

If you are boon, I’ve only played one game with you, and you were town and got d1 lynched over a mechanically certain scum.
It was... impressive and frustrating.

This must have been a long time ago?

I don’t recall being Day 1 lynched in years. Unless that was potentially the one time in years.

I haven’t played mafia in about two years.

[Zoronos]

Presuming that isn’t hammer and it’s still valid to post:
The-Worst I wrote some thoughts near the end of D1 on why I thought Maria was town and I largely stand by them currently.

[Zoronos]

if there are any vig shots left i think maria should be shot instead of investigated, her insistence on being tracked makes me think potential ninja.

I’d really prefer if people didn’t shoot my town reads.

[Zoronos]

He was scum -> neutral -> light town as the day progressed. I should have listened to my gut and gone for the Kokichi Lynch, but that’s water under the bridge.
I understand your point, and I’m well aware that two years off has done me no favors and I try to play without letting my ego get in the way of facts. But my opinion is that she’s likely town and I don’t think shooting her is a good plan. I can lay out a larger case for it if you want one, but not easily from my phone.

If morality flips SK, I think I intend to continue trying to lynch Una. If he flips scum, honestly I’m not sure because in a sane world that should indicate that Una was town being buddied but I am not sure we live in that world, so I’ll need to do some rethink.

I’m the first person to admit when I’ve made a bad or wrong judgement and redirect, but I’d rather do that based on content rather than corpses.

[Zoronos]

I literally just got home... and there's the hammer.

[Zoronos]

Go ahead. If Boon is causing that much of an issue, I’ll either be dead or write stuff tomorrow.

I literally just got home... and there's the hammer.

Type

Code: Select all

[b]Fast Night[/b]

Please.

Yeah, I know, just whining. Here's what up to so far - Just raw notes, no real conclusions yet. I got up through around 265 before posting this.
I'll get to the rest during night phase, hopefully, but in case I die, here's just raw thoughts on Koki's posting

Fast Nights

Spoiler: raw notes

I ignored dead town for this because associatives between scum and dead town because there tend to be very few scum in the 'dead town' pool.

Pushed ruby early, but eventually called her town in 245
Queried Something_smart but could have been team chat but he was encrypter so why not use scumchat for that. 225
Interacted with Dunnstral 228 and meta-shaded him 229 + 230
Shaded Una. 232, 234
Accused Maria of being scum 236+237, argued with her 241, and agreed with Mumble not liking her 243

Whined about people scum reading him for agreeing with Dunn 263 - this suggests a town Dunn imo since he is likely annoyed at getting dogpiled for agreeing with someone he knows is town.

[Zoronos]

The overview I got from it is that Kokichi spent a *lot* of time arguing with Maria and NSG / Ruby.

[Zoronos]

I claim that I'm glad nobody died. That probably wasn't helpful or what you were looking for.

Here's what I wrote up the other night from looking at the other half of looking at the kokichi posts, looking for who he was talking to, talking about, or ignoring:

Kokichi interacted a lot with me, Maria, Ruby, and Asuka, and some with Lapsa at the end once it became possible that Lapsa was a counterwagon to himself.
He had a few interactions with Espeonage and Mumble near the end of the day, specifically complaining about Espeonage's vote park and eventually expressing approval (728) of the composition of the espeonage wagon over it. His interactions with Dunnstral were largely oblique; he initially sheeped Dunnstral's reasoning on the Ruby vote, but didn't really talk with Dunnstral much about it. I'm inclined to think this was a scum-sheeping-town interaction though, rather than scum sheeping other scum.

He basically ignored Morality. His interactions with Unabomber were pretty low. (Also, during re-read I noticed that Ausuka may have bread crumbed Cop and Kokichi quoted it (41, which might explain the N1 shot)
He talked about something_smart a few times (like 214, but he didn't really talk to him.
He didn't spend much time engaging the_worst until the end of the game day, but I feel characterizing that interaction is a bit redundant.

[Zoronos]

Can I claim first? I like claiming.

[Zoronos]

It does not in any way help solve anything I just like claiming.

[Zoronos]

All of these things are true.

[Zoronos]

Also true.
Anyway, this has been a fun and pointless diversion.

Anyway, based on reading Kokichi I am probably still down for lynching Una but I want to think a bit more before hard committing.

[Zoronos]

NorthSideGal - During my read back over Kokichi, I felt like he spent a good amount of time arguing with Maria, which I'd normally not associate with a scum pairing. On review there's less of it than I initially thought, but I think it still holds. He seems to have spent most of his time either white-knighting a couple consensus town reads, or cracking back at the people voting him.
He basically ignored Una and Something_Smart. Whether that's because they didn't vote him (so he felt safe ignoring them) or because one of them is the scum buddy, I'm not positive.

I'm still not super sold on the Maria case. I get where you're coming from on the knowledge of guilt -> self-deprecating humour to mitigate / dismiss knowledge of guilt sequence there, but I don't know enough about MariaR's sense of humour to say for sure.
I know I tend to make silly jokes when I feel that I'm 'clearly town' that could be misread, but also when I'm scum and trying to be dismissive. So it's a mindset question, and I don't have a good enough sense of MariaR's personality to really say for sure.

Also, I feel a bit sheepish, but I thought MariaR on D1 was crumbing a PR. She and I played a game together a few years ago (I think my last one on the site before I disappeared) where she had half the scum team nailed D1, obliquely asked for protection, and I didn't protect her and she got N1 killed. She made a reference earlier in the game to playing a game with Zor and she'd get N1 killed again while I was being towny, so I had a sudden 'Oh, that's a PR crumb reference to the prior game'.
I may have been overreading that interaction, but now that we're on D3 with one towny dead in the night total I feel less bad if I accidentally out a PR so.

[Zoronos]

This post here:

Another game with Zor when he's way more obv town then me and I'll end up being the n1 kill again I'm ready.

[Zoronos]

Oh, I understood that part. You were positing that she was trying to momentum / topic shift when a scumbuddy came under heat. That part of the quote string was abundantly clear and I didn't really have anything of substance to add. I can probably come up with something by re-reading the part of the thread you are referring to, but I understood the argument.

The last couple posts (95->96->99) in the quote string seemed to be making a second, only semi-related point about knowledge-of-guilt humour when Maria admits 'I could be scum ye', and that's what I was addressing because from my experience joking around can be NAI depending on the person.

[Zoronos]

I am claiming scum with theworst.
It was me and the duck all along.

[Zoronos]

I'm not scum.
Maria likely is.
I've been busy.
GJ on Morality people - shame that I wasn't around for D2 at all.
Boon thinking I was an easy pocket for early game, and a mislynch for late makes a lot of sense.
Am willing to claim at any time if asked to, but it probably won't help solving the game.

Why Maria? Explain your reasoning.
You thought Mumble was scum on D1 and basically weren't around for D2 - has your read changed and why? A one shot cop flipped. Do you feel that makes sense with a Miller?

[Zoronos]

@nsg: I was looking back through Kokichi's iso to search for Maria interactions, and here's what I noticed:
367 -> When Asuka votes Mr Moisto (aka Morality, flipped scum), Kokichi responds by pointing out that Asuka thought Maria was scum. My lean on this would be that he's trying to chainsaw for a partner onto a town.
130 -> When Maria starts scum reading Dunn and attacking him for attacking your early post (46 or w/e it was), Kokichi prompts Dunn for a Maria read. That felt to me like an attempt to discredit Maria (who was also scumreading him at that point) or otherwise start a maria train. (He goes for a discredit in 230, and 236-238).
He swings back to her later - in 610 and 732, but he's at about halfway to lynch and the only active wagon, so those could theoretically be scum pre-distancing and probably count for less than a non-pressured scum.


@theworst:
I was looking at Una's ISO, and I found a post where Una called Kokichi town (153), and where he calls the Kokichi voters scummy ([post]554[/[pst]). He makes a few other references that I don't feel like linking to about Kokichi being frequently being mislynched.
I'm not sure these alone are indicative, but it seems like you have more experience with him than I do. What's your thought on how scum-una is likely to handle his scum-buddies?
(This isn't an attempt to side-implicate Una. I'm not trying to elbow you and say 'Hey, what about all these posts?'. I'm actually curious about what you know about Una's play, since you seem to know him much better than I do)

[Zoronos]

I actually had a similar feeling about Koki early d1 which is another part of why I want Una lynched after Maria. I'm sheeping my mason buddy a little wrt actually deciding to shoot Koki. He is always lynchable but it took me a while to go "yeah ok this is scum motivated lynchbait"

Koki was also Una's strongest read so far d1. I'd be surprised if he swung in to hard defend lynchbait who he knew was scum then went quieter again.

Someone who knows Una better may have a better take than me here but it doesn't *feel* quite so good.

So, one thing I see scum frequently do is say 'Yeah, X and Y are scummy' then vote Y, where X is their scum buddy. And every time Y changes or gets lynched, a new Y is found. They somehow never vote X. Scum will shade other scum or put them into their lynch pools, but I find it's much rarer that they'll call their scum buddies town.
That's why I asked the question - I think what I wrote is a more general case and doesn't always apply to all players. So I'm trying to get some perspective here. I might be wrong about Una, I think he's likely the best lynch here, but I want to talk it through rather than sit on 'being ahead' and make fast choices.

[Zoronos]

Before I go to bed I still think Una is town for reasons I'll explain in the am
If I was to have my cake and eat it too after my lynch lynch mumble track una (for you guys) otherwise look at Dunn/nsg but dunn slot figures itself out so don't lynch that

I think the chance of NSG being scum is very low.
Kokichi and NSG would have had to be cross-bussing almost all of D1.

[Zoronos]

I'm not scum.
Maria likely is.
I've been busy.
GJ on Morality people - shame that I wasn't around for D2 at all.
Boon thinking I was an easy pocket for early game, and a mislynch for late makes a lot of sense.
Am willing to claim at any time if asked to, but it probably won't help solving the game.

Why Maria? Explain your reasoning.
You thought Mumble was scum on D1 and basically weren't around for D2 - has your read changed and why? A one shot cop flipped. Do you feel that makes sense with a Miller?

Una you didn't answer any of my questions.

[Zoronos]

You thought Mumble was scum on D1 and basically weren't around for D2 - has your read changed and why? A one shot cop flipped. Do you feel that makes sense with a Miller?

All I can say here is that I don't think a 1-shot Cop in itself "fits" a Miller.
Then again, setup spec. might not quite be my forte.
I also want to clarify, that I think the way Mumble claimed Miller, was the biggest reason it pinged me.
So far on this site, noticing bullshit in the form of fakeclaims HAS been one of my stronger suits, but I've been rather off with all of my reads the past few weeks..

So, did your read change on him?
Also, you ignored the part about why you thought Maria was scum, and given your earlier-today preference for lynching her, that seems the most relevant part of the questions.

tl;dr - Your D1 lynch preference was mumble, where did that read go and why did it go away, and now your D3 lynch preference is Maria, why do you think that?

[Zoronos]

She meant on D1 when Morality was hard town reading Una.
Ruby / NSG mentioned it at the time, and I asked theworst about it earlier today. It’s one of the counter-indicating pieces of evidence making me have second thoughts about lynching Una.

[Zoronos]

My scum reads were completely wrong. Lots of rust.
Maybe in another couple years I'll try again.