Touhou UCanPick 5 - [Game Over]

[Gamma Emerald]

Spoiler:

First of all, if you haven't caught on already, I strongly believe that Kat's scum here, and I'll break it down for you.

alright listen up

Using your spell card today is a scumclaim and will be met with a policy lynch


I have a vig that only works on wagons that have gone to L-1 and I feel it’s best used as a double lynch today - I realize a lot of people may think I shouldn’t claim this but

when I roll town I find I play better while conftown

-

and this role is pretty strong and obviously town when it’s coordinated by town

, most L-1 wagons either end in a lynch or are bad lynches anyway. And yes it’s stage 1 so it works at day

We should try to decide on a first lynch around 4-5 days into the DP, and then use info from that for the next lynch. I will not shoot a townread (or Purrcocet unless I’m 100% sure they are scum) however.

As I understand it, L-1 in the past as long as it’s in a VC

I can double check though

It must be your stage or past your stage for you to be able to use your spell card.

She opens up by saying he wants to use her role and anyone who decides to use theirs instead is scum (strong fearmongering, favored tactic by most scum; coupled with the fact that she's claiming a 'vig' type role, this makes for an effective tactic for scaring townies into following them). This irked me because there was no discussion as to whether her role was best for the day or that if someone else had a better role to use that she'd be open to it. This felt more like a power play by Kats to confirm her role and hope that by claiming and confirming her role people would townread her for it, rather than trying to see what was best for the town and making sure she would take the best shot (emphasized by her stated desire to be conftowned and treated as town by confirmability and wanting to make sure she got her vig shot off and getting a second flip rather than making sure it was the best thing to do). From my experience, town are less concerned about being treated as conftown, but scum prioritize it since it gives them more influence over the playerlist and also lets them skate by on bad towncred.

Also note that nothing about her role or the setup states that she

has

to use it today, so her pushing to use it feels more like someone who wants to take advantage of it immediately and get rid of a potential threat rather than someone hoping to optimize its use.

I will not shoot a townread (or Purrcocet unless I’m 100% sure they are scum) however.

but i highly doubt there's a better PR to use D1, it's basically a free cop on me too

Notice how she reemphasizes that her role is best for today (debatable) AND that by confirming her role, she's be basically conftowned (confirmabilty != town).

VOTE: Katyusha

i literally almost threw up

lol she sounds like a textbook who wants to flash wagon this

giga whats ur relationship with molly purrocets

none, my chakras are flaring tho theres something with them i FEEL IT

but yo purrcs i got a counterproposal for u:

VOTE: purrcocet

She subtly instigates Purrcoat and then jumps on him when he suspects her.

I agree that what they haven’t done is like scummy and that elbirn’s push is townie but they’re capable of doing that as scum and are probably memeing. Either way they need pressure

Seriously tho what’s ur take on purrcs

Doesn't think Purr is scummy, but he needs pressure?

I reside in a serene and peaceful world where no moderator is enough of a bastard to grant even more killing power to the team whose power it is to kill people. It is wonderful here. There is birdsong, and the gentle pitter-patter of the snowmelt dripping off of the tree branches and into the lake below. I breath out, and with my breath go all of my troubles. Because FakeGod knows that if there's a scum vig I am going to frown at him.

agreed on you about scum vigs - when i was thinking about claiming i wasnt sure if FG's design style is different for this sort of game,

i've only read the alice in wonderland games

and all of the games that've been played during my time. i probably should take a look later, i'm honestly not sure what to expect if we're getting basically a D1 double lynch and probably 3 scum.

Well, sky did play in touhou upick 4 [aborted] and there were enough spellcard being thrown around that he'd know the rules.

oh shit scum did have killing power in that one, hm

i guess i'm not an IC, which is fine, but still.

i still think we should use my spellcard asap

Kat, you said you read all the Alice in Wonderland games, but did you come across that one? It's the sequel to his Through the Looking Glass game.

Yeah I remember that one, but it’s different

That setup was built around giving clues of that role’s existence, which Kagami figured out pretty quickly (though she did have the flip to help her)

I figured if FG were to include a scum vig it’s going to be more clearly scum by set up spec.

Notice how Kat agrees with Elbirn that vigs are less likely to be scum and how she brings up other games to support her claim. When I brought it up to her, I was expecting her response to be more along the lines of 'I forgot that game' or 'I didn't see that one because it the title didn't fit the theme' or something along those lines. Instead she admits to knowing about it but didn't bring it up, and the explanation seemed to be more of her trying to explain her way back into her original narrative and how it didn't apply rather than any acknowledgement of why her role could be suspicious.

Also note how even after it's made clear to her that there were scum killing powers in other games, and that her role wouldn't make her town, that she still wanted to make sure she could use her power. Feels like she's getting antsy and wants to make sure she gets her ability off.

didn't even notice the brian wagon but i like its composition so far and i'm not townreading him

VOTE: Brian Skies

Another vote on someone who openly suspects her, but fails to explain why I'm worthy of a vote other than 'I'm not being townread.' Probably her looking to shut down those who suspect her and get rid of a threat.

if ur all wagoning him cuz his posts are ugly that's something I completely understand but gamma deserves it too and maybe even Kat

HS openly suspects Kat as well, and once again, see where Kat ends up going.

Eddie and probably one of Kiana or Lexa are scum; BS is provisionally town. The composition of the BS wagon, for the record, is actually bad. Gaiden might be scum too.

Katyusha changed her claim and should vig the L-1 wagon

after

an unvote to prove that her role is actually what she just said. If she can vig anyone who has ever been at L-1, I'd agree that that seems unlikely as a scum role.

VOTE: eddie cane

I’ve never changed my claim, what are you talking about?

Can you expand on your Eddie read?

You claimed you could vig the L-1 wagon initially. Then you claimed you could vig anyone who had ever been at L-1, which is very different in my mind.

Tentatively EC's reads look easy or spurious. He has a pool of mostly low content posters, and his preferred lynch order is nearly the opposite of the order I read the slots in.

To a certain extent, I'm waiting for Kiana and Sky Paladin to do something, but I don't want to make them post because I want to see if they'll continue to lie low.

Meh, I figure the “have gone to” shows it works on past wagons but I get you

I can kind of see where Eddie’s reads are coming from as well and am not sure if viewing the gamestate differently is scummy at this stage - if anything I kind of think it’s better to see where he takes them since that’s how I usually read stronger scum players

Not sure if “spurious” is the word i’d put to them. They seem like reasonable gutreads as well - especially considering how he’s not really strongly scumreading anyone. I feel like people faking reads don’t just “wind up” faking poe reads and if I nailed down a reason for why his reads seem genuine it’s that. Not to insinuate scum are incapable of faking reads, I just don’t think with the persona Eddie would put up this game it fits that well

Plus one on Kiana and Sky, though

Kat's quick to defend Eddie, who she'd bee trying to warm up to and who also has 'POE' reads in her favor. She claims to 'kinda see where Eddie's reads are coming from,' but fails to discern how or why she feels this way, just that she thinks he's town. I still have to go through Eddie's posts, but I find this noteworthy and possibly indicative of a buddy.

VOTE: DLE

Purrc idk if I’ve ever agreed w ur votes this game

Awkward reaction considering Purr doesn't even townread Kat, Kat doesn't have any strong feelings on Purr either way, and she even tried to wagon Purr before moving on after realizing people weren't interested in flashwagoning him.

{Elbrin, DLE}
{Dunnstral, Purrcs}
{Eddie, Gamma, hebi}
{Gaiden}
-----------
{Kiana, Lexa, TG}
{Brian, HS}

Suddenly Purr is town, which is mostly an Eddie read, and her scumpool is comprised of lurkers/lynchbait and players that have openly suspected her or questioned her claim.

96 is a really bad post
it's not even that scummy
it's just bad
i don't wanna live in a universe where people actually vote other people for knowing who is and isn't in the game

this is kind of a weird thing to say about the person you're voting for though

Another awkward comment, because apparently HS can't have conflicting thoughts about someone he RVS-voted.

Sky / Kiana / TG / Brian / Lexa / DLE / Hebi / Human

{Brian > HS / TG > Hebi > Sky > Kiana > Lexa}

{Brian > HS > TG > Sky > Kiana > Hebi > Lexa}

It bothers me that Eddie feels the need to state the same scumreads over and over with minimal changes (which are mostly lurker/inactive players as well as those who openly suspect or don't immediately accept Kat as town), but I feel like Kat wouldn't brazenly copy Eddie's scumreads (in that she only omits Hebi and Sky) if this was an Eddie/Kat scumteam. The overlap here though is a big red flag (mostly for Kat since I see this more as her sheeping his reads than buddies pushing the same thing).

Kat is a towny town
why do we have to waste an easy townread on a confirmable slot zzz

This is a questionable post, especially since HS openly suspected kat earlier (without explanation). Not sure if this is actually how HS feels about Kat or if he's just giving in to Kat's intimidation.

he has a lynchboner for brian and me which i don't really get

eddie why do you have a lynchboner for brian and me

But he does see something similar to me regarding Eddie/Kat, maybe. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

can you really not see how a slot having a lot of one line, unimpressionable posts can cause them to mentally slurry together with other players

maybe it's from doing an iso? i don't know, having read this game entirely in context and not yet doing an ISO i feel like Eddie has been kind of echoing what I've been thinking in my head a lot, maybe change a thing or two.

and yeah, don't force reads if you don't have to. i have full faith if you're town you can towntell and scumhunt fine but right now I don't really see it. If anything you kind of remind me of your play in that shitty micro from way back when? it was literally your last game iirc, you felt kind of potatoey i guess and just kind of floating around. if you're just in a rut though let's try to get out of it

the difference is i'm not thinking what you're thinking

i've asked him to explain the whole brian thing like twice and he's just stonewalling me so i don't know how i'm supposed to see what he's seeing

if the micro was the nano multiball with luca blight (which was my last game before hiatus i think) then i was in a massive rut then, but i was also town in that game
i don't feel particularly rutty rn tho

also the possibility i'm getting pocketed exists etc

i dont want to paranoia lynch eddie d1 though i'd feel like a shitty friend

HS tries to air his suspicions on Eddie, and Kat continues to strangely buddy his reads and defend him.

From my experience, scum struggle with reasons for scumreading someone, and so far, Kat/Eddie have mostly been just townreading players (something that's far easier for scum since they already know their alignments). Elbirn's confusion over Kat/Eddie's Gaiden townread (someone I alway struggle with reading, although I think I remember Kagami claiming to have a good grasp on him), resonates a little with me.

Also, HS is right in that Eddie mostly just reiterated his POE pool instead of explaining his reads in any way.

I also just learned that going to night phase advances the stage.

feels like an oddly specific thing to try to derptowntell with as scum, i think it's more likely genuine

scum probably have had some time to discuss the setup and mechanics considering how much it's centered around the game, if he's scum i think he just doesn't mention this while giving setup info since it's not on his mind

nothing conclusive i'd like hard-whiteknight him off of but it's a preliminary townread.

I'm also not really buying this as a reason to townread Gaiden. Sure, it seems a little odd for someone to state openly in thread, but fake towntells are a thing and I don't see how this reaction couldn't have been faked. Not to mention it's not like Gaiden's really done anything that I find even moderately helpful or insightful.

where? also, i've posted about why i scumread brian at least a while ago, you literally just iso'd me.

For the record, the only explanation I've found regarding his BS/HS scumreads thus far are that he thinks we're 'buddies.' But the only reasoning I can infer from his posts is that HS doesn't understand why I was being wagoned and that we've both suspected Kat to some degree.

So this response is very ??? to me.

Actually, I am a mafia brain Jesus.

Brian has seen one of my worst town games on site, that was mostly because my hydra partner told me someone was 100% scum and to push it and they had a 10 game track record of reading that person flawlessly and they were town.....

Lol.

Kiana spamming the thread seems like a good stopping point for now. I'll go over more reads in my next post.

I also don't really feel the need to claim, but will if needed. My role does play into my scumread of Kat a little bit.

VOTE: Katyusha

kat looks good in scum iso brian sounds like he's trying to get his thoughts to kat and HS read on Kat sounds tmi

I'm not sure if Kat is one to hardbus her entire team -_-

[Shattiel]

A vig = a nonfactional kill to me?

I can vig a player who was recorded to be at L-1 in any votecount once per game, starting at D1.

I can kill a player who was recorded to be at L-1 in any votecount once per game, starting at D1.

They effectively mean the same thing to me? what's your point.....

unless you're saying a scum vig is unlikely, which I agree with here. there's probably going to be some parallel or something that makes the role clearly scum if it exists, which seems mechanically weird in a game with public actions.

I don't really care about going into a long discussion about this with you, but as far as I'm concerned, this wasn't (or probably wasn't) a setup that was designed in advance and roles were probably determined based on player submissions and not with any predetermined ideas regarding flavor or more subtle setup nuances like you're implying. It makes more sense to me for a role to be more ambiguous in its application than to just be 'this is obviously a scum power' or 'this is obviously a town power,' especially since everyone has to

publicly declare

when they'd be using their power. Otherwise, scum are pretty much dead in the water from the start since from what you're implying, one or more of them wouldn't even be able to use their spellcard since it would make it obvious they were scum and they'd be lynched.

Negative utility town roles are also a thing. And so are roles that look townish on the surface but are actually scum roles. And I'd expect both of these from any moderator worth their salt.

I'm also from the school of thought that roles don't determine alignment, and neither does confimability (which only means you have the role you claimed, not that you're town). And seeing players make bad assumptions that may or may not favor scum is a pet peeve of mine and I

will

make it a point to shut it down if I see it.

Kat is a towny town
why do we have to waste an easy townread on a confirmable slot zzz

elibirn is pretty towny, he's reading pretty genuine, especially in his apologetic mindset towards not reading the thread
everybody else just blends together
dle, Eddie cane, lexa, probably more even just feel like the same person in my head

why should I sheep you when you have not established credibility yet?

I make sense

[Gamma Emerald]

No you don't

[Shattiel]

The train-wreck unexpectedly stopped before I could see a satisfying conclusion. Disappointing.

I guess I'll just jump in with the obvious.

Shattiel

Actually why is sky town?

This question would be appropriate coming from one of the long term players in the game (or even Dan since he's been around presumably 'doing something' for the last three days) but you just came in fresh and haven't read the game yet.

In other words, I'd like some thought put in to explaining why this was one of your entry posts.

ofc that question is for everyone I didn't specifically asked 1 person for it I don't even know what their read on you is.
It'e only for those that read you town

I'll be more specific.

What prompted you to ask this?

the quotes I quoted above?
Your iso looks bad it's a fact

[Shattiel]

Spoiler:

First of all, if you haven't caught on already, I strongly believe that Kat's scum here, and I'll break it down for you.

alright listen up

Using your spell card today is a scumclaim and will be met with a policy lynch


I have a vig that only works on wagons that have gone to L-1 and I feel it’s best used as a double lynch today - I realize a lot of people may think I shouldn’t claim this but

when I roll town I find I play better while conftown

-

and this role is pretty strong and obviously town when it’s coordinated by town

, most L-1 wagons either end in a lynch or are bad lynches anyway. And yes it’s stage 1 so it works at day

We should try to decide on a first lynch around 4-5 days into the DP, and then use info from that for the next lynch. I will not shoot a townread (or Purrcocet unless I’m 100% sure they are scum) however.

As I understand it, L-1 in the past as long as it’s in a VC

I can double check though

It must be your stage or past your stage for you to be able to use your spell card.

She opens up by saying he wants to use her role and anyone who decides to use theirs instead is scum (strong fearmongering, favored tactic by most scum; coupled with the fact that she's claiming a 'vig' type role, this makes for an effective tactic for scaring townies into following them). This irked me because there was no discussion as to whether her role was best for the day or that if someone else had a better role to use that she'd be open to it. This felt more like a power play by Kats to confirm her role and hope that by claiming and confirming her role people would townread her for it, rather than trying to see what was best for the town and making sure she would take the best shot (emphasized by her stated desire to be conftowned and treated as town by confirmability and wanting to make sure she got her vig shot off and getting a second flip rather than making sure it was the best thing to do). From my experience, town are less concerned about being treated as conftown, but scum prioritize it since it gives them more influence over the playerlist and also lets them skate by on bad towncred.

Also note that nothing about her role or the setup states that she

has

to use it today, so her pushing to use it feels more like someone who wants to take advantage of it immediately and get rid of a potential threat rather than someone hoping to optimize its use.

I will not shoot a townread (or Purrcocet unless I’m 100% sure they are scum) however.

but i highly doubt there's a better PR to use D1, it's basically a free cop on me too

Notice how she reemphasizes that her role is best for today (debatable) AND that by confirming her role, she's be basically conftowned (confirmabilty != town).

VOTE: Katyusha

i literally almost threw up

lol she sounds like a textbook who wants to flash wagon this

giga whats ur relationship with molly purrocets

none, my chakras are flaring tho theres something with them i FEEL IT

but yo purrcs i got a counterproposal for u:

VOTE: purrcocet

She subtly instigates Purrcoat and then jumps on him when he suspects her.

I agree that what they haven’t done is like scummy and that elbirn’s push is townie but they’re capable of doing that as scum and are probably memeing. Either way they need pressure

Seriously tho what’s ur take on purrcs

Doesn't think Purr is scummy, but he needs pressure?

I reside in a serene and peaceful world where no moderator is enough of a bastard to grant even more killing power to the team whose power it is to kill people. It is wonderful here. There is birdsong, and the gentle pitter-patter of the snowmelt dripping off of the tree branches and into the lake below. I breath out, and with my breath go all of my troubles. Because FakeGod knows that if there's a scum vig I am going to frown at him.

agreed on you about scum vigs - when i was thinking about claiming i wasnt sure if FG's design style is different for this sort of game,

i've only read the alice in wonderland games

and all of the games that've been played during my time. i probably should take a look later, i'm honestly not sure what to expect if we're getting basically a D1 double lynch and probably 3 scum.

Well, sky did play in touhou upick 4 [aborted] and there were enough spellcard being thrown around that he'd know the rules.

oh shit scum did have killing power in that one, hm

i guess i'm not an IC, which is fine, but still.

i still think we should use my spellcard asap

Kat, you said you read all the Alice in Wonderland games, but did you come across that one? It's the sequel to his Through the Looking Glass game.

Yeah I remember that one, but it’s different

That setup was built around giving clues of that role’s existence, which Kagami figured out pretty quickly (though she did have the flip to help her)

I figured if FG were to include a scum vig it’s going to be more clearly scum by set up spec.

Notice how Kat agrees with Elbirn that vigs are less likely to be scum and how she brings up other games to support her claim. When I brought it up to her, I was expecting her response to be more along the lines of 'I forgot that game' or 'I didn't see that one because it the title didn't fit the theme' or something along those lines. Instead she admits to knowing about it but didn't bring it up, and the explanation seemed to be more of her trying to explain her way back into her original narrative and how it didn't apply rather than any acknowledgement of why her role could be suspicious.

Also note how even after it's made clear to her that there were scum killing powers in other games, and that her role wouldn't make her town, that she still wanted to make sure she could use her power. Feels like she's getting antsy and wants to make sure she gets her ability off.

didn't even notice the brian wagon but i like its composition so far and i'm not townreading him

VOTE: Brian Skies

Another vote on someone who openly suspects her, but fails to explain why I'm worthy of a vote other than 'I'm not being townread.' Probably her looking to shut down those who suspect her and get rid of a threat.

if ur all wagoning him cuz his posts are ugly that's something I completely understand but gamma deserves it too and maybe even Kat

HS openly suspects Kat as well, and once again, see where Kat ends up going.

Eddie and probably one of Kiana or Lexa are scum; BS is provisionally town. The composition of the BS wagon, for the record, is actually bad. Gaiden might be scum too.

Katyusha changed her claim and should vig the L-1 wagon

after

an unvote to prove that her role is actually what she just said. If she can vig anyone who has ever been at L-1, I'd agree that that seems unlikely as a scum role.

VOTE: eddie cane

I’ve never changed my claim, what are you talking about?

Can you expand on your Eddie read?

You claimed you could vig the L-1 wagon initially. Then you claimed you could vig anyone who had ever been at L-1, which is very different in my mind.

Tentatively EC's reads look easy or spurious. He has a pool of mostly low content posters, and his preferred lynch order is nearly the opposite of the order I read the slots in.

To a certain extent, I'm waiting for Kiana and Sky Paladin to do something, but I don't want to make them post because I want to see if they'll continue to lie low.

Meh, I figure the “have gone to” shows it works on past wagons but I get you

I can kind of see where Eddie’s reads are coming from as well and am not sure if viewing the gamestate differently is scummy at this stage - if anything I kind of think it’s better to see where he takes them since that’s how I usually read stronger scum players

Not sure if “spurious” is the word i’d put to them. They seem like reasonable gutreads as well - especially considering how he’s not really strongly scumreading anyone. I feel like people faking reads don’t just “wind up” faking poe reads and if I nailed down a reason for why his reads seem genuine it’s that. Not to insinuate scum are incapable of faking reads, I just don’t think with the persona Eddie would put up this game it fits that well

Plus one on Kiana and Sky, though

Kat's quick to defend Eddie, who she'd bee trying to warm up to and who also has 'POE' reads in her favor. She claims to 'kinda see where Eddie's reads are coming from,' but fails to discern how or why she feels this way, just that she thinks he's town. I still have to go through Eddie's posts, but I find this noteworthy and possibly indicative of a buddy.

VOTE: DLE

Purrc idk if I’ve ever agreed w ur votes this game

Awkward reaction considering Purr doesn't even townread Kat, Kat doesn't have any strong feelings on Purr either way, and she even tried to wagon Purr before moving on after realizing people weren't interested in flashwagoning him.

{Elbrin, DLE}
{Dunnstral, Purrcs}
{Eddie, Gamma, hebi}
{Gaiden}
-----------
{Kiana, Lexa, TG}
{Brian, HS}

Suddenly Purr is town, which is mostly an Eddie read, and her scumpool is comprised of lurkers/lynchbait and players that have openly suspected her or questioned her claim.

96 is a really bad post
it's not even that scummy
it's just bad
i don't wanna live in a universe where people actually vote other people for knowing who is and isn't in the game

this is kind of a weird thing to say about the person you're voting for though

Another awkward comment, because apparently HS can't have conflicting thoughts about someone he RVS-voted.

Sky / Kiana / TG / Brian / Lexa / DLE / Hebi / Human

{Brian > HS / TG > Hebi > Sky > Kiana > Lexa}

{Brian > HS > TG > Sky > Kiana > Hebi > Lexa}

It bothers me that Eddie feels the need to state the same scumreads over and over with minimal changes (which are mostly lurker/inactive players as well as those who openly suspect or don't immediately accept Kat as town), but I feel like Kat wouldn't brazenly copy Eddie's scumreads (in that she only omits Hebi and Sky) if this was an Eddie/Kat scumteam. The overlap here though is a big red flag (mostly for Kat since I see this more as her sheeping his reads than buddies pushing the same thing).

Kat is a towny town
why do we have to waste an easy townread on a confirmable slot zzz

This is a questionable post, especially since HS openly suspected kat earlier (without explanation). Not sure if this is actually how HS feels about Kat or if he's just giving in to Kat's intimidation.

he has a lynchboner for brian and me which i don't really get

eddie why do you have a lynchboner for brian and me

But he does see something similar to me regarding Eddie/Kat, maybe. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

can you really not see how a slot having a lot of one line, unimpressionable posts can cause them to mentally slurry together with other players

maybe it's from doing an iso? i don't know, having read this game entirely in context and not yet doing an ISO i feel like Eddie has been kind of echoing what I've been thinking in my head a lot, maybe change a thing or two.

and yeah, don't force reads if you don't have to. i have full faith if you're town you can towntell and scumhunt fine but right now I don't really see it. If anything you kind of remind me of your play in that shitty micro from way back when? it was literally your last game iirc, you felt kind of potatoey i guess and just kind of floating around. if you're just in a rut though let's try to get out of it

the difference is i'm not thinking what you're thinking

i've asked him to explain the whole brian thing like twice and he's just stonewalling me so i don't know how i'm supposed to see what he's seeing

if the micro was the nano multiball with luca blight (which was my last game before hiatus i think) then i was in a massive rut then, but i was also town in that game
i don't feel particularly rutty rn tho

also the possibility i'm getting pocketed exists etc

i dont want to paranoia lynch eddie d1 though i'd feel like a shitty friend

HS tries to air his suspicions on Eddie, and Kat continues to strangely buddy his reads and defend him.

From my experience, scum struggle with reasons for scumreading someone, and so far, Kat/Eddie have mostly been just townreading players (something that's far easier for scum since they already know their alignments). Elbirn's confusion over Kat/Eddie's Gaiden townread (someone I alway struggle with reading, although I think I remember Kagami claiming to have a good grasp on him), resonates a little with me.

Also, HS is right in that Eddie mostly just reiterated his POE pool instead of explaining his reads in any way.

I also just learned that going to night phase advances the stage.

feels like an oddly specific thing to try to derptowntell with as scum, i think it's more likely genuine

scum probably have had some time to discuss the setup and mechanics considering how much it's centered around the game, if he's scum i think he just doesn't mention this while giving setup info since it's not on his mind

nothing conclusive i'd like hard-whiteknight him off of but it's a preliminary townread.

I'm also not really buying this as a reason to townread Gaiden. Sure, it seems a little odd for someone to state openly in thread, but fake towntells are a thing and I don't see how this reaction couldn't have been faked. Not to mention it's not like Gaiden's really done anything that I find even moderately helpful or insightful.

where? also, i've posted about why i scumread brian at least a while ago, you literally just iso'd me.

For the record, the only explanation I've found regarding his BS/HS scumreads thus far are that he thinks we're 'buddies.' But the only reasoning I can infer from his posts is that HS doesn't understand why I was being wagoned and that we've both suspected Kat to some degree.

So this response is very ??? to me.

Actually, I am a mafia brain Jesus.

Brian has seen one of my worst town games on site, that was mostly because my hydra partner told me someone was 100% scum and to push it and they had a 10 game track record of reading that person flawlessly and they were town.....

Lol.

Kiana spamming the thread seems like a good stopping point for now. I'll go over more reads in my next post.

I also don't really feel the need to claim, but will if needed. My role does play into my scumread of Kat a little bit.

VOTE: Katyusha

kat looks good in scum iso brian sounds like he's trying to get his thoughts to kat and HS read on Kat sounds tmi

I'm not sure if Kat is one to hardbus her entire team -_-

yeah I doubt he'd do that to that's why I actually said he's good. You misunderstand it

[Shattiel]

A vig = a nonfactional kill to me?

I can vig a player who was recorded to be at L-1 in any votecount once per game, starting at D1.

I can kill a player who was recorded to be at L-1 in any votecount once per game, starting at D1.

They effectively mean the same thing to me? what's your point.....

unless you're saying a scum vig is unlikely, which I agree with here. there's probably going to be some parallel or something that makes the role clearly scum if it exists, which seems mechanically weird in a game with public actions.

I don't really care about going into a long discussion about this with you, but as far as I'm concerned, this wasn't (or probably wasn't) a setup that was designed in advance and roles were probably determined based on player submissions and not with any predetermined ideas regarding flavor or more subtle setup nuances like you're implying. It makes more sense to me for a role to be more ambiguous in its application than to just be 'this is obviously a scum power' or 'this is obviously a town power,' especially since everyone has to

publicly declare

when they'd be using their power. Otherwise, scum are pretty much dead in the water from the start since from what you're implying, one or more of them wouldn't even be able to use their spellcard since it would make it obvious they were scum and they'd be lynched.

Negative utility town roles are also a thing. And so are roles that look townish on the surface but are actually scum roles. And I'd expect both of these from any moderator worth their salt.

I'm also from the school of thought that roles don't determine alignment, and neither does confimability (which only means you have the role you claimed, not that you're town). And seeing players make bad assumptions that may or may not favor scum is a pet peeve of mine and I

will

make it a point to shut it down if I see it.

Kat is a towny town
why do we have to waste an easy townread on a confirmable slot zzz

elibirn is pretty towny, he's reading pretty genuine, especially in his apologetic mindset towards not reading the thread
everybody else just blends together
dle, Eddie cane, lexa, probably more even just feel like the same person in my head

why should I sheep you when you have not established credibility yet?

I make sense

kek those two quoted above are supposed to go into that spoiler together with 1699 btw

[Shattiel]

No you don't

why?

:omgus facepalm:

[Gamma Emerald]

ok you need to communicate better then

[Shattiel]

Gamma used their card during this phase to vig Purr and Hebi (which were targets I had nominated). He said that using the card made him hated x2 although I believe it's only for this phase.

Right? 11/4 would make sense.

There's been no consensus on this; but I personally think there's four scum and that it's Gamma/Elbirn.

@sky explain to me gamma/elbirn I'll hear you out

[Titus]

If it's Gamma and Elbrin, Gamma shooting just made this lylo and we must have Shattiel's vote on Elbrin.

[Sky_Paladin]

@sky explain to me gamma/elbirn I'll hear you out

I could

but

I would much rather you read the game and come to your own conclusions first, and then we can discuss it. I will be around.

[Gamma Emerald]

Um it's 7p plus the special rules would still make this not lylo

[Sky_Paladin]

If it's Gamma and Elbrin, Gamma shooting just made this lylo and we must have Shattiel's vote on Elbrin.

While this is true, Shattiel is doing a very good job at convincing me that it's actually just Shattiel, so I guess if that's the case, she'll just hammer town!Elbirn, or let it go to no-lynch.

[Sky_Paladin]

@sky explain to me gamma/elbirn I'll hear you out

You can presume that I've already done this and that my reads are suitably explained through the game/ISO, but for your reference, my reads are:

Most town:
Katy/Dan, Kiana/Titus
Lex, Shattiel (Despite your best efforts)
Gamma
Elbirn

If I had to line them up in order from super best town friends forever through to, uh, not, the order is:
Katy/Dan, Kiana/Titus, Lex, Shattiel, Gamma, Elbirn

If you get to your "I'm all caught up!" post and you still aren't satisfied let me know and I'll go through it again.

[Shattiel]

9-12

viewtopic.php?p=10046348#p10046348

first thing i remember having any thought about on hebi, nothing specifically indicative but gut feels town, just sounds really pure


viewtopic.php?p=10046464#p10046464

ooh good catch, didn't notice that on human. yeah just calling gammas post bad but not scummy while you're voting for him definitely lines up with the scum waffle, first real lead, good place to do this

VOTE: Human Sequencer

I'm easy to talk to, I'll always work with people.

lel


these are some really empty posts i'm going through atm :/ only thing of any note through 259 is katy p much solidifying as town, super strong tone in the last several pages on top of the other points in favour

also reading elbirn is like watching paint dry


viewtopic.php?p=10046957#p10046957

agree that dle's posts have been ones more typically in his town wheelhouse, but they also aren't out of his scum one. null for me atm


viewtopic.php?p=10047000#p10047000

its at this point that i realize someone named gaiden is actually in this game o_o

i thought it was some rando that everyone else had played with a bunch...


viewtopic.php?p=10047075#p10047075

interesting that TG chooses to develop a read on kiana who hasn't really been in the thread at all while ignoring me when he'd had us both in the same category in 185. idk i'm feeling really null on this slot, their pushes and targets seem really off and stretchy and their softing of brian/maybe human looks bad but nothing they're saying actually really bleeds noticeably scummy. might just be town who's off the game atm.


viewtopic.php?p=10047086#p10047086

possible tvs with human/tg?


page 12 got a bit more interesting which i'm grateful for cause 10-11 fucking sucked to get through

Lexa somehow looks good pushing for HS but the reason that made him vote for Human is kek.
HS response sounds triggered though so that's also I'd keep an eye out for lexa

[Gamma Emerald]

Does no one know how to count? We have seven alive now.

[Sky_Paladin]

Actually you know what, I'm going to shut up and let you finish. Feel free to ignore my posts until you've done your re-read.

[Elbirn]

If it's Gamma and Elbrin, Gamma shooting just made this lylo and we must have Shattiel's vote on Elbrin.

I don't see where the gamma/Elbirn pairing comes from that you all keep parroting

But you're better than this Titus and I can't tell if you just don't give a fuck this game or what

[Elbirn]

Spoiler:

First of all, if you haven't caught on already, I strongly believe that Kat's scum here, and I'll break it down for you.

alright listen up

Using your spell card today is a scumclaim and will be met with a policy lynch


I have a vig that only works on wagons that have gone to L-1 and I feel it’s best used as a double lynch today - I realize a lot of people may think I shouldn’t claim this but

when I roll town I find I play better while conftown

-

and this role is pretty strong and obviously town when it’s coordinated by town

, most L-1 wagons either end in a lynch or are bad lynches anyway. And yes it’s stage 1 so it works at day

We should try to decide on a first lynch around 4-5 days into the DP, and then use info from that for the next lynch. I will not shoot a townread (or Purrcocet unless I’m 100% sure they are scum) however.

As I understand it, L-1 in the past as long as it’s in a VC

I can double check though

It must be your stage or past your stage for you to be able to use your spell card.

She opens up by saying he wants to use her role and anyone who decides to use theirs instead is scum (strong fearmongering, favored tactic by most scum; coupled with the fact that she's claiming a 'vig' type role, this makes for an effective tactic for scaring townies into following them). This irked me because there was no discussion as to whether her role was best for the day or that if someone else had a better role to use that she'd be open to it. This felt more like a power play by Kats to confirm her role and hope that by claiming and confirming her role people would townread her for it, rather than trying to see what was best for the town and making sure she would take the best shot (emphasized by her stated desire to be conftowned and treated as town by confirmability and wanting to make sure she got her vig shot off and getting a second flip rather than making sure it was the best thing to do). From my experience, town are less concerned about being treated as conftown, but scum prioritize it since it gives them more influence over the playerlist and also lets them skate by on bad towncred.

Also note that nothing about her role or the setup states that she

has

to use it today, so her pushing to use it feels more like someone who wants to take advantage of it immediately and get rid of a potential threat rather than someone hoping to optimize its use.

I will not shoot a townread (or Purrcocet unless I’m 100% sure they are scum) however.

but i highly doubt there's a better PR to use D1, it's basically a free cop on me too

Notice how she reemphasizes that her role is best for today (debatable) AND that by confirming her role, she's be basically conftowned (confirmabilty != town).

VOTE: Katyusha

i literally almost threw up

lol she sounds like a textbook who wants to flash wagon this

giga whats ur relationship with molly purrocets

none, my chakras are flaring tho theres something with them i FEEL IT

but yo purrcs i got a counterproposal for u:

VOTE: purrcocet

She subtly instigates Purrcoat and then jumps on him when he suspects her.

I agree that what they haven’t done is like scummy and that elbirn’s push is townie but they’re capable of doing that as scum and are probably memeing. Either way they need pressure

Seriously tho what’s ur take on purrcs

Doesn't think Purr is scummy, but he needs pressure?

I reside in a serene and peaceful world where no moderator is enough of a bastard to grant even more killing power to the team whose power it is to kill people. It is wonderful here. There is birdsong, and the gentle pitter-patter of the snowmelt dripping off of the tree branches and into the lake below. I breath out, and with my breath go all of my troubles. Because FakeGod knows that if there's a scum vig I am going to frown at him.

agreed on you about scum vigs - when i was thinking about claiming i wasnt sure if FG's design style is different for this sort of game,

i've only read the alice in wonderland games

and all of the games that've been played during my time. i probably should take a look later, i'm honestly not sure what to expect if we're getting basically a D1 double lynch and probably 3 scum.

Well, sky did play in touhou upick 4 [aborted] and there were enough spellcard being thrown around that he'd know the rules.

oh shit scum did have killing power in that one, hm

i guess i'm not an IC, which is fine, but still.

i still think we should use my spellcard asap

Kat, you said you read all the Alice in Wonderland games, but did you come across that one? It's the sequel to his Through the Looking Glass game.

Yeah I remember that one, but it’s different

That setup was built around giving clues of that role’s existence, which Kagami figured out pretty quickly (though she did have the flip to help her)

I figured if FG were to include a scum vig it’s going to be more clearly scum by set up spec.

Notice how Kat agrees with Elbirn that vigs are less likely to be scum and how she brings up other games to support her claim. When I brought it up to her, I was expecting her response to be more along the lines of 'I forgot that game' or 'I didn't see that one because it the title didn't fit the theme' or something along those lines. Instead she admits to knowing about it but didn't bring it up, and the explanation seemed to be more of her trying to explain her way back into her original narrative and how it didn't apply rather than any acknowledgement of why her role could be suspicious.

Also note how even after it's made clear to her that there were scum killing powers in other games, and that her role wouldn't make her town, that she still wanted to make sure she could use her power. Feels like she's getting antsy and wants to make sure she gets her ability off.

didn't even notice the brian wagon but i like its composition so far and i'm not townreading him

VOTE: Brian Skies

Another vote on someone who openly suspects her, but fails to explain why I'm worthy of a vote other than 'I'm not being townread.' Probably her looking to shut down those who suspect her and get rid of a threat.

if ur all wagoning him cuz his posts are ugly that's something I completely understand but gamma deserves it too and maybe even Kat

HS openly suspects Kat as well, and once again, see where Kat ends up going.

Eddie and probably one of Kiana or Lexa are scum; BS is provisionally town. The composition of the BS wagon, for the record, is actually bad. Gaiden might be scum too.

Katyusha changed her claim and should vig the L-1 wagon

after

an unvote to prove that her role is actually what she just said. If she can vig anyone who has ever been at L-1, I'd agree that that seems unlikely as a scum role.

VOTE: eddie cane

I’ve never changed my claim, what are you talking about?

Can you expand on your Eddie read?

You claimed you could vig the L-1 wagon initially. Then you claimed you could vig anyone who had ever been at L-1, which is very different in my mind.

Tentatively EC's reads look easy or spurious. He has a pool of mostly low content posters, and his preferred lynch order is nearly the opposite of the order I read the slots in.

To a certain extent, I'm waiting for Kiana and Sky Paladin to do something, but I don't want to make them post because I want to see if they'll continue to lie low.

Meh, I figure the “have gone to” shows it works on past wagons but I get you

I can kind of see where Eddie’s reads are coming from as well and am not sure if viewing the gamestate differently is scummy at this stage - if anything I kind of think it’s better to see where he takes them since that’s how I usually read stronger scum players

Not sure if “spurious” is the word i’d put to them. They seem like reasonable gutreads as well - especially considering how he’s not really strongly scumreading anyone. I feel like people faking reads don’t just “wind up” faking poe reads and if I nailed down a reason for why his reads seem genuine it’s that. Not to insinuate scum are incapable of faking reads, I just don’t think with the persona Eddie would put up this game it fits that well

Plus one on Kiana and Sky, though

Kat's quick to defend Eddie, who she'd bee trying to warm up to and who also has 'POE' reads in her favor. She claims to 'kinda see where Eddie's reads are coming from,' but fails to discern how or why she feels this way, just that she thinks he's town. I still have to go through Eddie's posts, but I find this noteworthy and possibly indicative of a buddy.

VOTE: DLE

Purrc idk if I’ve ever agreed w ur votes this game

Awkward reaction considering Purr doesn't even townread Kat, Kat doesn't have any strong feelings on Purr either way, and she even tried to wagon Purr before moving on after realizing people weren't interested in flashwagoning him.

{Elbrin, DLE}
{Dunnstral, Purrcs}
{Eddie, Gamma, hebi}
{Gaiden}
-----------
{Kiana, Lexa, TG}
{Brian, HS}

Suddenly Purr is town, which is mostly an Eddie read, and her scumpool is comprised of lurkers/lynchbait and players that have openly suspected her or questioned her claim.

96 is a really bad post
it's not even that scummy
it's just bad
i don't wanna live in a universe where people actually vote other people for knowing who is and isn't in the game

this is kind of a weird thing to say about the person you're voting for though

Another awkward comment, because apparently HS can't have conflicting thoughts about someone he RVS-voted.

Sky / Kiana / TG / Brian / Lexa / DLE / Hebi / Human

{Brian > HS / TG > Hebi > Sky > Kiana > Lexa}

{Brian > HS > TG > Sky > Kiana > Hebi > Lexa}

It bothers me that Eddie feels the need to state the same scumreads over and over with minimal changes (which are mostly lurker/inactive players as well as those who openly suspect or don't immediately accept Kat as town), but I feel like Kat wouldn't brazenly copy Eddie's scumreads (in that she only omits Hebi and Sky) if this was an Eddie/Kat scumteam. The overlap here though is a big red flag (mostly for Kat since I see this more as her sheeping his reads than buddies pushing the same thing).

Kat is a towny town
why do we have to waste an easy townread on a confirmable slot zzz

This is a questionable post, especially since HS openly suspected kat earlier (without explanation). Not sure if this is actually how HS feels about Kat or if he's just giving in to Kat's intimidation.

he has a lynchboner for brian and me which i don't really get

eddie why do you have a lynchboner for brian and me

But he does see something similar to me regarding Eddie/Kat, maybe. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

can you really not see how a slot having a lot of one line, unimpressionable posts can cause them to mentally slurry together with other players

maybe it's from doing an iso? i don't know, having read this game entirely in context and not yet doing an ISO i feel like Eddie has been kind of echoing what I've been thinking in my head a lot, maybe change a thing or two.

and yeah, don't force reads if you don't have to. i have full faith if you're town you can towntell and scumhunt fine but right now I don't really see it. If anything you kind of remind me of your play in that shitty micro from way back when? it was literally your last game iirc, you felt kind of potatoey i guess and just kind of floating around. if you're just in a rut though let's try to get out of it

the difference is i'm not thinking what you're thinking

i've asked him to explain the whole brian thing like twice and he's just stonewalling me so i don't know how i'm supposed to see what he's seeing

if the micro was the nano multiball with luca blight (which was my last game before hiatus i think) then i was in a massive rut then, but i was also town in that game
i don't feel particularly rutty rn tho

also the possibility i'm getting pocketed exists etc

i dont want to paranoia lynch eddie d1 though i'd feel like a shitty friend

HS tries to air his suspicions on Eddie, and Kat continues to strangely buddy his reads and defend him.

From my experience, scum struggle with reasons for scumreading someone, and so far, Kat/Eddie have mostly been just townreading players (something that's far easier for scum since they already know their alignments). Elbirn's confusion over Kat/Eddie's Gaiden townread (someone I alway struggle with reading, although I think I remember Kagami claiming to have a good grasp on him), resonates a little with me.

Also, HS is right in that Eddie mostly just reiterated his POE pool instead of explaining his reads in any way.

I also just learned that going to night phase advances the stage.

feels like an oddly specific thing to try to derptowntell with as scum, i think it's more likely genuine

scum probably have had some time to discuss the setup and mechanics considering how much it's centered around the game, if he's scum i think he just doesn't mention this while giving setup info since it's not on his mind

nothing conclusive i'd like hard-whiteknight him off of but it's a preliminary townread.

I'm also not really buying this as a reason to townread Gaiden. Sure, it seems a little odd for someone to state openly in thread, but fake towntells are a thing and I don't see how this reaction couldn't have been faked. Not to mention it's not like Gaiden's really done anything that I find even moderately helpful or insightful.

where? also, i've posted about why i scumread brian at least a while ago, you literally just iso'd me.

For the record, the only explanation I've found regarding his BS/HS scumreads thus far are that he thinks we're 'buddies.' But the only reasoning I can infer from his posts is that HS doesn't understand why I was being wagoned and that we've both suspected Kat to some degree.

So this response is very ??? to me.

Actually, I am a mafia brain Jesus.

Brian has seen one of my worst town games on site, that was mostly because my hydra partner told me someone was 100% scum and to push it and they had a 10 game track record of reading that person flawlessly and they were town.....

Lol.

Kiana spamming the thread seems like a good stopping point for now. I'll go over more reads in my next post.

I also don't really feel the need to claim, but will if needed. My role does play into my scumread of Kat a little bit.

VOTE: Katyusha

kat looks good in scum iso brian sounds like he's trying to get his thoughts to kat and HS read on Kat sounds tmi

I'm not sure if Kat is one to hardbus her entire team -_-

That's pretty much my conclusion. If this scumteams idea of a fun time and game plan is to let one person murder the whole team rather than you know actually play the game / use their big shot optimally to accelerate lylo, then fuck em they can have the win

[Shattiel]

@sky explain to me gamma/elbirn I'll hear you out

You can presume that I've already done this and that my reads are suitably explained through the game/ISO, but for your reference, my reads are:

Most town:
Katy/Dan, Kiana/Titus
Lex, Shattiel (Despite your best efforts)
Gamma
Elbirn

If I had to line them up in order from super best town friends forever through to, uh, not, the order is:
Katy/Dan, Kiana/Titus, Lex, Shattiel, Gamma, Elbirn

If you get to your "I'm all caught up!" post and you still aren't satisfied let me know and I'll go through it again.

like hell I'm gonna caught up I'm not gonna read 1500+ posts I'm just isoing people and skimming it.
I'll just form an opinion of everyone then we'll talk real time.

[Titus]

If it's Gamma and Elbrin, Gamma shooting just made this lylo and we must have Shattiel's vote on Elbrin.

I don't see where the gamma/Elbirn pairing comes from that you all keep parroting

But you're better than this Titus and I can't tell if you just don't give a fuck this game or what

This is why I feel you're just shading. I didn't parrot any conclusion at all but merely stated the obvious. You are hyper defensive and scared. Given the two dead votes, all five town must agree if there are two scum in the game. This fact says nothing about the underlying conclusion being accurate or not.

You consistently badmouth the effort I put in to understand the premises people put forth as parrotting or lack of effort. That does not feel town to me.

[Gamma Emerald]

If you're really so sure it's 2 scum and it's me and elbirn go and lynch me, I'm double hated.

[Shattiel]

Btw can I get a list of people who claimed? And those who already used their cards.

Only the people alive ofc

[Elbirn]

This is why I feel you're just shading. I didn't parrot any conclusion at all but merely stated the obvious. You are hyper defensive and scared. Given the two dead votes, all five town must agree if there are two scum in the game. This fact says nothing about the underlying conclusion being accurate or not.

You consistently badmouth the effort I put in to understand the premises people put forth as parrotting or lack of effort. That does not feel town to me.

But your post wasn't "if there are two scum, all 5 town must be correct and voting together"

Your post was "if it's Elbirn and gamma then we all need to vote Elbirn"

The former is certainly useful to keep in mind, and is stating the obvious as you say. The latter contains an assumption as to what the scum team is. This is an assumption that 1. I personally know to be wrong, and 2. Is wholly unsubstantiated; why do you pair us? I don't think you've ever elaborated on a scum read on either of us, and you really just seem to have been floating by and doing fuckall while blending into the background.

That's not shade, that's my take on your play so far. And I don't know what to make of it because you ARE a good player so like, can you just not get into this game because you replaced in at the end or what?

[Elbirn]

Btw can I get a list of people who claimed? And those who already used their cards.

Only the people alive ofc

I am a stage 0 card crush. Once per game I can destroy one other players spell card. I still have my card.