Open 722: Red Flag [Endgame]

[Hiraki]

So why am I scum? Try to convince someone.

I missed this. What do you mean convince someone? Are you kidding me?

I'm starting to get a bad feeling around Fumaki. I'm not sure how to explain it as it's mostly a gut feeling. But I stated realizing that even now that he;'s not really spamming, his posts often still don't have all that much in them. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but it's beginning to get on my nerves as much as KTS's aggressiveness. they's planty of discussion, but not many reads and really strong opinions given. Fumaki is in a place, where I feel his opinions of people coudl be shifted very easily.

But your vote is still on Creature because...he won't explain why you're scummy?

But I think KTS might be right here. I'll have to check, but I think I have played a game where town!creature was like this. Because despite what I said in my initial RVS post, I have played with Town creature.
So until I'm sure. UNVOTE: Creature

Unvote...with no vote on others that you've called sus?

I could probably get them from his posts, but I'm too lazy to look at them out of ISO.

This is the ONLY reason I haven't fed into your wagon. There is a clear LACK of intent on playing the game from your slot right now. I saw that in the beginning when you were wagoned and you did the equivalent of shrugging. Now we're back to the same-ish juncture and you're again - shrugging. I don't care enough to meta dive this and see if this is a town or scum move from you. It's stupid and getting annoying. I still think your flip is a town one but everyone is getting riled up over this bad play. If you post like this again, you won't make it to Day 2.

OH AND YOU'RE STILL NOT VOTING?

AHHHHHHHHHHH

[Hiraki]

Now Hiraki...? He totally is lurking and didn't provide any content as of yet. Plus, a KTS flip actually doesn't confirm TheBrie as scum, and plus again, if KTS stay alive in d2, it's pretty likely that he'll try to hit TheBrie anyway.

Dude, I've said it before and you agreed with me - I was V/LA. I'm not going to immediately jump on it and post shit the second I get back. I was traveling.

[Hiraki]

Sorry - thought 687 was somehow above 691...whoops.

[Hiraki]

Pressure...what Hikari-san...? Actually, I was thinking that it was bussing and he already knew that TheBrie was scum, I stopped it because it started to seem unlikely with him saying "when I die, hit TheBrie" and no one saying "there's only one scum there", what would be the obvious play by the scumteam: get someone to a good position by making them correctly catch a scum. However, I waited and waited...that didn't happen...and more...the exact opposite happened....can you see what I'm talking about...? It would be good since you've not posted anything of content as of yet.

That's very assumptive of both parties.

they flip their reads around when it suits them and don't have any intent to gamesolve.

Can't have read progression if you don't have reads.

Then you're fine with a KTS lynch? If I said for you to self vote would you do it?

If you're gonna flag me down for not giving out content, what's the purpose of this?

I'm gonna be blunt here - you've been pinging me since that Creature v/s KTS exchange and it hasn't really stopped. Some of your content is outright outlandish (the above and others) and some of it can be really good but never followed up upon (if someone needs me to go into this that I'm not talking out of my ass, I can do so but I don't really want to do it).

I don't get why people are trying to figure out KTS. I gave up on that a long time ago. BY THE WAY, Fumiki of course criticized me not moving my vote....even though we have similar concerns??

Yeah, I'm townreading ActionDan, pisskop and wgeurts because they're players I expect to hardlurk as town.

Yucky but I can't say anything against it.

So far thinking scum are all here:
TheBrie
KTS
Arch
northside
BBT

Help me with northside? I haven't had any pings there.

However, there's no way that without you giving us a good reason to not lynch you, we'll not lynch you.

This is wrong but not the place to have this discussion either.

VOTE: UNVOTE

I'm unvoting for now and I'm probably sheeping the next person that says anything coherent. If this is by any chance a scum faked emotion reaction, I think I should simply stop playing the game. It wouldn't be worth it.

I'd vote you here if I'm not caught up on TheBrie and wanting to give her one last chance so we can end D1.

Teacher is lock town for me.

Nice to see that creature has his head in the game now. UNVOTE:

I'm looking here next.

I take it were lynching between KTS and TheBrie today?

I thought you said you were reading?

He is simply lurking for a good time now and only appears in opportunistic times to say something and vanish in thin air again.

Man ACTUALLY are you KIDDING me???

I apologized for it earlier but I said I was V/LA. I am no longer V/LA. If you phrased it if you had doubts on me returning in full swing, then I'd be A-OK and we could walk away. But this shit is getting annoying.

You complain about the V/LA bug then forget who is actually V/LA and who isn't?? Really??

{Fumiki, KTS, TheBrie}

Unvote, Vote: TheBrie

Take some pressure while I convince the children of the bad man, Fumiki.

[Fumuki]

Why not lynch "easy lynch targets" now? If they flip scum then yay. If we leave them off and their fellow scum kills them, We're a lynch behind on winning.

I'll explain for the last time, pay attention.

This setup, as the days progress, makes the mafia larger and larger. We in d1 have a scum/town ratio of 4/9, d2 if we don't hit scum, 4/7, and d3 without hitting it again, 4/5.

Do you see the problem and difference from other games here?

Mafia fastly becomes the majority.

. If we put the lurkers in account, maybe the mafia will be close enough to majority already in d2, and d3 is hopeless.

YOU NEVER, EVER WILL SUCCESSFULLY PUSH A WAGON ON A SCUM NOT ALREADY HEAVILY SUSPECTED IN D2 WITH SO MUCH LURKERS, NEITHER WILL PUSH A WAGON ON A SCUM THAT'S ALREADY CONSIDERED "HOPELESS"/"CONF!SCUM" IN D3. DO YOU SEE WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT?

Today we should push the harder lynchs and agree in the possible lynchs to next day, and DEFINITELY, should in d2 make mutual agreement to a pool lynch of at MAX 2 suspects to vote in d3.

We can't waste a player like TheBrie, that was suspected by everyone and if scum there's no way that the scumbudies can save, in d1 where the town still can vote another scum slot harder to lynch.

DO YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND NOW?

[Fumuki]

Hiraki, honestly, don't come saying "I was just in V/LA" and stop using capslock because just makes me think you're scum even more. There's other lurkers if you didn't notice. I'm suspected of you because the discussion with KTS came out of nowhere, and MAINLY because even when you say you were in V/LA, you did come to the thread, quoted me and questioned showing knowing the situation, however, you didn't attempt to discuss or question other players, and now when I say about you lurking, you again show up here and start pushing TheBrie. AKA the easiest lynchbait.

Hiraki-san, do you think that I'll analyze you over and try to find a "contradiction" or something to "justify" lynching you? Anyone that thinks catching scum is solely like that won't catch a lot of scums.

We couldn't read your slot and now you're pushing the easiest player, plus, if we lynch you we get another slot almost confirmed to be town. Don't let's get in personal insults but I can't see why we shouldn't try a lynch on you...

[Fumuki]

OPS, I said something a little wrong in the post about the setup, the correct is:

"NEITHER WILL PUSH A WAGON ON A SCUM THAT'S NOT ALREADY CONSIDERED "HOPELESS"/"CONF!SCUM" IN D3".

[Fumuki]

Look at how many people are voting TheBrie and tell me they're scum. Hard bussing in d1 is totally bad play to scum in this setup, they have the complete advantage in d2, even more with so many lurkers. Guys, if we're lynching TheBrie is totally not today. That's nonsense and I already explained why.

Plus, knowing that we'll lynch these guys for sure, mafia maybe will kill they in the night and then we gain another lynch opportunity like I said. It's totally beneficial to town.

[Hiraki]

705 demonstrates that Fumiki thinks of players from a practical level rather than doing both that and actually reading what the players are saying. Not sure if that's entirely scum but it's definitely not optimal.

[teacher]

DO YOU GUYS UNDERSTAND NOW?

so much to respond to since I signed off, but I’m going to have to actually work most of the day. This one line basically encapsulates it all for me though. I perfectly well understand you, just disagree. Perhaps it is you who needs to be more flexible, understanding that there is reasonable ground for disagreement. (Same as to the Hiraki/Kill, I sinply disagree as to who is more helpful to town especially with an announced v:la and when Kill makes me want to play less not more.).

[teacher]

It's possible for one of the scum to decide to go solo.

Solo is different from advancing the town's wincon, no?

also, Fumuki-San, with the benefit of some distance/sleep, this quote seems really contrary to town!creature meta. He does try to gamesolve as town, but he is a very smart player. I suppose I can’t see the motivation to hardbus day one, even to gain Towncred, because that gets us halfway to the wincon early. What say you?

[Fumuki]

705 demonstrates that Fumiki thinks of players from a practical level rather than doing both that and actually reading what the players are saying. Not sure if that's entirely scum but it's definitely not optimal.

WHAT DO I NEED TO READ ABOUT YOU HIRAKI?

Do you think that scum would be totally scummy and spill wrong arguments or something? So far now what you've done is clash with KTS, say that I'm scummy for unvoting a wagon gaining traction to go for another one way harder to lynch and OF COURSE frame TheBrie that is probably a lynch bait since no one even is trying to redirect wagons to any other person.

If by lynching you we get someone with alignment confirmation and plus see your flip, I don't see how that's not benefical, although I'm willing to reconsider who to lynch if you have something better than framing the lynchbait.

Teacher, you said that I need to be flexive. I've been flexive I think, but I'm not accepting anyone disagreeing with my theory just because they "normally go for the most suspicious person and here we should do the same thing". If you disagree with me show me how in the long term lynching these guys is more beneficial in this setup. Scum is taking over this game by d2 if you don't think well about it.

[Fumuki]

It's possible for one of the scum to decide to go solo.

Solo is different from advancing the town's wincon, no?

also, Fumuki-San, with the benefit of some distance/sleep, this quote seems really contrary to town!creature meta. He does try to gamesolve as town, but he is a very smart player. I suppose I can’t see the motivation to hardbus day one, even to gain Towncred, because that gets us halfway to the wincon early. What say you?

I already said that but at the begin I too was thinking along these lines. KTS simply was screaming that TheBrie was scum, TheBrie wagon stalled and if we lynched another person today and one of them were killed tonight, it would be a excellent strategy. The thing is that I didn't see KTS stopping screaming at TheBrie even if a little and didn't see anyone trying to redirect wagons, although I honestly need to check it out just to be on the safe side.

[Fumuki]

It's possible for one of the scum to decide to go solo.

Solo is different from advancing the town's wincon, no?

also, Fumuki-San, with the benefit of some distance/sleep, this quote seems really contrary to town!creature meta. He does try to gamesolve as town, but he is a very smart player. I suppose I can’t see the motivation to hardbus day one, even to gain Towncred, because that gets us halfway to the wincon early. What say you?

[Hiraki]

You're taking it as if I have an agenda. I have reasons and you've ignored them in order to just show how the actions behind them, not at face value, are scummy. It's subtle misrep.

[Fumuki]

This setup at least for anyone trying to build strategies is totally different from a normal setup with 2 scums.

Town biggest advantage was always lynch power, however here by day 2 if we don't hit scum today, that advantage is over. In d3 it's hopeless without any planning in the days before.

That's what I honestly think that everyone here should understand. I don't believe that four players in the scum chat didn't notice how powerful mafia is here in the daytime and aren't planning to block any scum wagons and get a easy win.

[Fumuki]

You're taking it as if I have an agenda. I have reasons and you've ignored them in order to just show how the actions behind them, not at face value, are scummy. It's subtle misrep.

Reasons?

Of course you have reasons and I know them, I even was one of the guys to remind everyone how scummy TheBrie is. What I'm talking here is that lynching her today is SIMPLY, PLAIN AND COMPLETE BULLSHIT EVEN IF SHE'S BY A MIRACLE SCUM. AND YOU IGNORED ALL THAT THEORY WITHOUT GIVING GOOD REASONS.

The one doing missrep here is you and it's only getting scummier by every minute trying to say that lynching TheBrie today is any beneficial.

[Fumuki]

Do you think that only scum does say weird things? Mafia would be so much easier if that was it. So much easier to win as town.

Scum are the most prone ones to be extremely self-aware of what they say and trying looking town by arguing and lynching a lynchbait that is acting dubiously.

[Fumuki]

Look at TheBrie, she's hopeless. We can lynch her any day we want, and if mafia kill her themselves town stay intact and get another lynch day. There's no drawbacks.

ENLIGHTEN ME TO HOW YOU'RE MAKING SENSE BY LYNCHING HER TODAY.

[Hiraki]

Didn't know there'd be associations with this now.

[Fumuki]

Didn't know there'd be associations with this now.

WTFFF

associations with WHAT? IT BEING SCUMMY? HOW IT'S NOT? ENLIGHTEN ME^2

Ran out of arguments and can't explain why is wanting to lynch her?

There's still time to unvote her and discuss with me who to hit today.

[Fumuki]

h-holy shit...I'm turning into a death scream player....

IT'S FUN HONESTLY

[teacher]

EVEN IF SHE'S BY A MIRACLE SCUM.

Towncase her please. Seriously, make the case that what she has said comes from town. I cant see the lazy argument because she tried to post reads and explain them. If its the TSTBS case, we are going to have to disagree whether thats a thing. And regardless its Bad!town. Again, Im not saying we shouldnt pressure other slots. Im also not saying I cant be persuaded to vote elsewhere. But you're wrong to claim that "no one is even trying to redirect wagons" 711, as that is exactly what youre doing, and to a lesser extent northside, BBT.

Your strategy posts also seem bullet-riddled to me. Essentially you seem to be arguing for a lower-information/lurker lynch, rather than a higher-suspicion lynch, D1 because (a) scum could leave town alone N1 and/or (b) high-suspicion can be caught D2 anyway. But your logic doesnt follow. For example, this:

if we don't hit scum, 4/7, and d3 without hitting it again, 4/5.

contradicts point A. It assumes scum does NOT leave town alone. And I think they are right. Because scum voting power becomes so dominant so fast, I think scum has to kill town tonight even if town leaves a big honking suspect flapping in the wind. Relatedly, this:

however here by day 2 if we don't hit scum today, that advantage is over.

Is why I think we have to kill our best suspect rather than expect mafia to do us the courtesy. I do think lynching even brie gets harder at 7:4. Id rather try to organically build a new scumwagon at 8:3 than try to force even Brie at 7:4.

My bottom line: lynch the best suspect at end of day. Right now thats Brie to me. But we are nowhere near end of day yet.

Finally, on our discussion of KTS v. Hiraki: I think we understand each others positions, and simply disagree. Which I can respect. But just in case I havent made my view clear - this is what I disagree with:

2. He goes for blood in his scum reads
3. He goes for blood in defending his town reads

He may go for blood, but he doesnt draw it. He doesnt provide any case whatsoever. He simply drones on, repeats himself again, and says AIDS. Hiraki argues. Agree or disagree with the arguments as you will, but at least they are there to actually convince people. (also I think KTS at least shades more slots, even if doesnt lock them). Im open to revisiting this if Hiraki doesnt continue on his current course of the LA, but thats my $0.02 for now.

[Hiraki]

If Fumiki really read my posts, he'd understand my vote is weak at absolute best and has no intention of lynching. Was going to say that before but I'm glad I didn't now.

[northsidegal]

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