The Resistance #2 - 5P Game

[BuJaber]

I don't but if mission 2 fails and mission 3 2 if us go again and it fails we know for sure who is spy.


If mission 2 succeeds we win. Simple.
Your scenario only wins if you luckily guessed the team but if it fails how do you make a choice between the 3 people that went? I sure as hell wouldn't trust either of you.

[Iconeum]

Agreed with buj

[Mathdino]

okay but if this mission fails with paradox on it then it's back to "DID ONE OF MATH/PARADOX PASS THE FIRST MISSION AND FRAME THE NEW GUY OR IS IT JUST THE NEW GUY"

i would personally gain more information with other people on it because i already believe paradox is scum

[Mathdino]

also you two apparently agree with each other while voting for a team that includes paradox/me, thus excluding the other one of you

like from your POVs the other one should be a scumread

it's a weird game lol

i very much think irrelephant is town right now pending more posting

[BuJaber]

If the new guy is spy he can't not fail the mission because he pretty much confirms the first 2 unless the 2 spies somehow coordinated. Because if it passes you just play it safe and pick the first 2 guys for mission 3.

So if it fails it points to new guy so you pick one old guy and another new guy for mission 3.
-If it passes you take the original 2 guys and new guy of mission 3 to mission 4. If that fails then you take the same 2 of mission 3 with the guy that never played.

-if it fails it points to old guy. So you take the other old guy with new guy mission 3 with guy that never played.

[Irrelephant11]

So I'm really pretty confident that BuJ/Ico has a scum and Math/TGP has a scum, based on the two scum probably not starting the game by saying "yay us two lets goooo" without having a daychat to agree to WIFOM the rest of us. Deciphering which is which is hard. BuJaber clearly wants to figure things out but I'm disagreeing with some of his conclusions? So that makes me lean toward bad feelings. But also Ico is just voting without much discussion. I think it's me, Math, and one of those two and I'll soon figure out which. Not voting until Ico and BuJ explain agreeing while scumreading each other and (more importantly) till TGP enters the conversation.

Yeah but with mafia there clues, associations, night actions.

If you could just imagine with me here.

What is the motivation for scum to vote yes for any 3 way mission they are not a part of?
If it's a success would you trust everyone in the mission?
Like a 3 way mission passing means you mechanically have to pick them again anyway for the next 3 man mission. So it just seems like you either get it right or you lose.

I guess we'll just have to play to the end and maybe I can see what happens. But really this reminds me a lot of the miss list game we played where there's a lot of wifom but even less info coz nobody dies and flips.

Anyway I want you and paradox to go again with me. Only way your mission goes is if icon and irrelephant vote with you. I can't see any reason why paradox would ever vote yes for a mission he isn't in.

VOTE: math, paradox and Buj

A) There's... definitely still clues, associations, and night actions. Scum know who the other is.
B) That's the definition of a scumslip, which also happens IRL. Could happen.
C) A three way mission passing

could

mean two scum went and failed to signal to each other. Picking up on in-game signaling seems possibly important here
D) Yeah, this game is mostly WIFOM that's what I enjoy about it

Also literally what is town about TGP

[BuJaber]

Where are you and math getting the idea that I scumread icon and townread paradox?

The point is to narrow down who could be a spy. And I don't think we can do that unless both math and paradox go again based on the scenario analysis I described above.

[Irrelephant11]

Ohhh gotcha, also, no. The point is to get three town points. I'm going on this mission as resistance, and any person you don't include in a mission you think of as spy - the only other viable choice being including both spies. Intentionally including just one person you think of as a spy will pretty much lose you the game, since there isn't enough time to ensure you definitely find the right one using PoE.

Also, you seem to be operating under the impression that the first mission says anything about anyone's alignment. Aside from how math looked towny in advance of the mission, the actual result of the first mission is basically a null tell for both the players who went. Yes, many players town read those two if they remain untested, but that's bad play. Of course spies pass that first mission, every time.

[BuJaber]

That's why they have to go again though

If they didn't we won't know which one of them is the spy if one of them is.
We leave them untested again and that doubt will always be on your mind.
In the way I am proposing every mission you are choosing the most likely people to be town based on previous missions. If other clues start to form throughout the game from the discussion obviously we factor them in but if we don't pick math / paradox here we are giving ourselves a wider margin of error.

Think what you would do if the first mission failed. You would never pick them both again. So how does it also make sense to not pick them again when the first mission failed?

Or consider this:
Is there a difference in the info gained between:
Math/irrelephant/icon - 1 sabotage among them
And
Buj/irrelephant/paradox - 1 sabotage among them.

Are you able to determine math's alignment any better in the first one than the second?

Since they passed the first mission they have to play 3 missions in a row. That is how you clear them.

[brassherald]

Vote Count 2.2

Mathdino, TheGoldenParadox, BuJaber(1)~

BuJaber

Mathdino, TheGoldenParadox, Iconeum (1)~

Iconeum

Not Voting (5)~

Irrelephant11, Mathdino, TheGoldenParadox

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2018-04-30 20:20:00).

[Irrelephant11]

But what I'm saying is that the first mission is

literally null

.

We have the next four missions to figure out whatever we want. We do not have the previous mission to figure anything out, except for people's conversational tells.

Let's pretend for a minute that Ico and TGP are scum.

Math and TGP pass a mission.
Math, TGP, and you fail a mission.
Math and TGP pass a mission.

Like????
What has your strategy gained here, except putting you, the newcomer, in a bad light, and helping TGP get on every mission till the end?

So my suggestion:

First mission doesn't matter.
Second mission, play the three towniest players. A pass is

amazing

, because now scum HAVE to 1v1 round 3. A fail is fine-ish, because now you've very likely got two town players who have narrowed down their POVs to two 1v1s. Of course, the scum will also pretend they've got that POV, but that's the WIFOM of it all.

[Irrelephant11]

Also a second round mission pass is one of the best ways for town to win, period.

Still not sure which of BuJaber and Ico is resistance, and starting to wonder if maybe TGP really is resistance....

[BuJaber]

What determines who is towniest now when we have pretty much nothing to go with?

Icon because he agrees with me? Math because he chose paradox got a pass but now wants to avoid him? Paradox who hasn't posted at all? Or you who has posted a lot?

We really only have gut to go on.. I really don't like how dino and you are suspicious of paradox when all he has done is passed the first mission. Dino's whole reason for picking TGP was because he would be intimidated into passing if he were spy. I'm guessing dino's plan involves going with paradox on mission 3 also based on the same principle.

So why does he want new people now? If mission 3 fails all he would have achieved is given us a 50-50 between him and TGP and 2 missions for spy. A very difficult position to win from.
Even if it succeeds that pretty much clears para/math but who are the 2 spies among the other 3?

[BuJaber]

The irony is you make me want to vote for me, icon and paradox but I don't think gut should determine this mission. That comes later when you need to decide who is lying when people inevitable start accusing each other of sabotaging.

[Irrelephant11]

Gut is the game. Nobody flips, and there's never enough information to eliminate all incorrect possibilities. Round 5, we will be going by gut. Round 2, we are going by gut. You even supply reasons there for legitimate reads - are my many posts suggesting town or scum? Is our argument tvs or tvt (or, from other players' perspectives, svs)? This game is literally "what if mafia didn't have clear flips and you had to depend on reads way more??"

You still haven't explained to me how Dino + Paradox + _______ gives us more information than any other set if N1 is, in fact, always going to turn up a town point.

Without a guarantee of more information, then, resistance should always be trying to find a set that earns a town point - either all three town, or one town and two scum who can't coordinate.

From my POV, TGP is scummy because Math is not, and I've that said my current theory, shooting from the hip, is one scum in each D1 pair.

In 37 your last question may be one we never get answers to. There are 0 ways for town to guarantee getting enough information to win. Sometimes a single resistance member will have all the information there is, but they still have to come across as believable to their teammates.

[Mathdino]

The irony is you make me want to vote for me, icon and paradox but I don't think gut should determine this mission. That comes later when you need to decide who is lying when people inevitable start accusing each other of sabotaging.

this team has 2 scum on it

does anyone wanna try it lol

[Irrelephant11]

Let's pretend for a minute that Ico and TGP are scum.

Math and TGP pass a mission.
Math, TGP, and you fail a mission.
Math and TGP pass a mission.

Like????
What has your strategy gained here, except putting you, the newcomer, in a bad light, and helping TGP get on every mission till the end?

Waiting on this answer.


One quick thought about putting up two scum as a strategy: While it doesn't guarantee a town point, it is easier to do than get all three town in a mission. There are 3/10 teams that include two spies, and only 1/10 that include no spies.

pedit: lol kinda yeah

[Mathdino]

if anyone says anything about who passes or fails a mission then that's obviously a spyclaim

VOTE: Bujaber, Iconeum, Paradox

let's do it for the meme of 2 sabotages

that said, i'm wondering though
we get 3 shots at finding all 3 town this game
if we do this, even if we have 2 spies on the mission (betting the game on irrelephant/mathdino mutual townread), and even if they both sabotage, that gives us 2 chances to find the 1 town among 3

if we want to bet the game on irrelephant/mathdino town, we could just try all 3 of them on all the 3 person missions

thoughts?

[Irrelephant11]

I mean, I was more excited about the possibility of getting a resistance point by neither spy wanting to be double outed, or of finding a spy dropping breadcrumbs. The game gets much easier when we have the last three shots to get one point, or one player we can ignore.

I'm 95% ready to bet the game on this, you're the only one giving any sort of towntells so far. But I don't know if any potential third resistance member feels the same, which is sort of important to be able to

implement

any plans.

Also I will continue to wait for TGP to show up before voting.

What does your spyclaim thing mean? I don't understand.

[Mathdino]

if anyone says anything to imply that they would be the ones to pass/sabotage a mission so that their spy buddy knows what to do, we should treat that as a full on spyclaim

even things like "i'll pass this mission" or "if someone sabotages, it's probably [x]" or "i think [buddy] is going to pass this"

there's a lot of hidden ways to communicate in resistance

[Irrelephant11]

Ohhh right right yes. I originally read what you wrote as "anyone speculating from here on out about who did what at night is a spy" which I was like no... But I agree, yes.

[brassherald]

I owe a vote count

Vote Count 2.2

Mathdino, TheGoldenParadox, BuJaber(1)~

BuJaber

Mathdino, TheGoldenParadox, Iconeum (1)~

Iconeum

BuJaber, Iconeum, TheGoldenParadox (1)~

Mathdino

Not Voting (2)~

Irrelephant11, TheGoldenParadox

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2018-04-30 20:20:00).

[Iconeum]

I'm reading Math's vote as a scumclaim actually. Surprising he doesn't include himself in the mission.
Sure, 'he's doing it for the memes of 2 sabotage', but why not look for town instead of scum?

Actively putting scum in a mission isn't good gameplay, because the only benefit is finding 2 sabotages and there is not enough information yet to be fairly sure about both scum yet.

[Iconeum]

UNVOTE:

[Mathdino]

doing that produces a 66% winrate lol

hunting for 2 town produces something significantly lower