Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]

[verydark]

Actually,

@verydark:

I'm ok with lynching Green Crayons, Mylo, or kmd today.

VOTE: Green Crayons

Why'd you pick me to vote first?

How do you feel about GL and brass?

I don't like a GL vote, because apparently I don't understand "bussing"

Brass is a scum/null read.

I voted you to get the ball rolling, don't really have concrete thoughts on you, but have you as a scum lean.

And before anyone says "why don't you stick to your scum reads by voting" - Welp, I squandered any ability to get people on board with me since D1, so yeah, I'm basically sheeping (did I use that right?) what I can.

[Kmd4390]

I didn't get to this today. Will try again tomorrow.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: GC

GC is now the only person I have a scum lean on.

Mhm, mhm.

it's so easy to say "I have too many townreads" as scum. And if you're scum, you often have too many townreads, because you know who is town, they look townier to you, and you feel more pressure to townread them. Sometimes scum wind up townreading too many players and become POE suspects when they run out of plausible/believable mislynches to push. Like, almost by definition scum are more likely to have too many townreads than town.

[Green Crayons]

Also

You already stated in your 1558 post reasons why you read SS as town. How was someone going to give you those reasons going to help you or the town?

Also in what context were you looking at SS? I’m struggling to understand your motivation in soliciting input on outside the dave lynch pool.

[Green Crayons]

I don't like a GL vote, because apparently I don't understand "bussing"

Brass is a scum/null read.

So you don't think GL has done anything suspicious all game?

Please explain your brass read.

[Green Crayons]

I voted you to get the ball rolling, don't really have concrete thoughts on you, but have you as a scum lean.

While you're at it, why don't you also lay out your thoughts on GC-scum and mylo-scum.

I'm listening.

[Kmd4390]

A couple things from page 62:
-mathdino beat me to what I was going to say about Guiltylions self meta. I'd be surprised if he rolled scum here and decided to play exactly to his scum meta. If there was ever a time to give something like a hard bus a chance, this was it.
-I saw massclaim tomorrow mentioned. I just want to say I'm against it.
-I keep seeing the Guiltylion case simplified to "he's good at scum so he must be scum". It's not that simple. It's the fact that of those on the Dave wagon, he's the person who we seem to agree can play the way he's played as scum. People are townreading brass for whatever reason. I don't really see why green crayons makes sense as scum on that wagon. And Mylo just doesn't seem capable of faking the few posts that sounded town. I feel like at least one of brass/Guiltylion has to be scum.

[GuiltyLion]

hi I am back home and ready to get my teeth more firmly back into this game now - I have work today but I'll also try to be on site throughout the day and more engaged, definitely around tonight

couple things I am going to respond to really quickly:

I also feel like scum is townreading me because they're scared of my green flip today.

I'm curious, do you have any ideas for what the next step would be if you flipped? Part of the reason I suspected Mylo was the designated mislynch today is because it clicks with the game state pretty well, so it's entirely plausible that this is true.

I think GC would be the best lynch if I were flipped today, especially since he's now my main counterwagon. I also agree massclaim is a good idea at that point - we've been assuming all off dave-wagon people could be the masons but we should know definitively who is potential scum within that group to better speculate about teams/associatives

[Something_Smart]

aaa

this setup is really starting to get to me

because I feel lukewarm on GL, GC, and Mylo, and I really want to push elsewhere but I'm terrified of outing one or both masons

and it definitely doesn't help that I have a not-VT read on someone :/

[GuiltyLion]

I just don't like this GL wagon. I don't know much about him as a player (I've only seen one game of his) but I don't like this wagon. And the problem is that two of my town reads are on it, so it's likely it's not a scum driven wagon.

Although... I am pretty much town leaning on everyone here so...

Forgive me if I've asked this before (I have a feeling like I have), but why is SS a confirmed town slot? We're obviously not lynching him, he wasn't on the dave wagon and he has had overall solid play but why is he never even discussed as a scum option?

these kind of strike me as townie posts

GC can you clarify what your problem is with them? You're asking Mylo why he made them, but I don't see why he would make them as scum either

also when I made the point about having "too many townreads as scum", I wasn't saying BuJaber was scummy for doing that, I was just saying it was not a good reason to townread BuJaber. So similarly here I don't think it's necessarily scummy that Mylo is saying that

[GuiltyLion]

his scumgame appears to have direction, he has an agenda, he's making waves, has some damn respect for himself

also I did briefly look over that Mylo game he linked and agree it felt like he was trying harder as scum in that game

I don't want to totally clear him on it because 1 game sample and people try different things, but I do agree it's a point in favor of him being town

[Green Crayons]

I was just saying it was not a good reason to townread BuJaber

I don't want to totally clear him on it because 1 game sample and people try different things, but I do agree it's a point in favor of him being town

I feel like a lot of people are treating mylo as if his suspicious qualities and town qualities are literally one pound units each and they're just stacking them on a scale and saying "meh it looks even to me."

Acting suspicious should be given more weight to occasional town flashes because scum are inherently suspicious but are actively trying to look town; town are not inherently suspicious and are just trying to do their best as town.

[Green Crayons]

GC can you clarify what your problem is with them? You're asking Mylo why he made them, but I don't see why he would make them as scum either

mylo is asking for town input on a non-dave-wagon candidate, which will help final scum target mason.

Especially since mylo

explained in his post

why SS is heavy town, his request for others to give yet more reasons to explain why SS hasn't been a scum suspect is indicative that he's specifically looking to gauge how other players perceive SS moreso than necessarily coming to a decision about SS specifically.

[Green Crayons]

People are townreading brass for whatever reason. I don't really see why green crayons makes sense as scum on that wagon. And Mylo just doesn't seem capable of faking the few posts that sounded town. I feel like at least one of brass/Guiltylion has to be scum.

Do you have more meat for those bones of your brass suspicions?

[Kmd4390]

People are townreading brass for whatever reason. I don't really see why green crayons makes sense as scum on that wagon. And Mylo just doesn't seem capable of faking the few posts that sounded town. I feel like at least one of brass/Guiltylion has to be scum.

Do you have more meat for those bones of your brass suspicions?

I wish I did, but not really other than some of his votes feeling opportunistic.

[GuiltyLion]

gah

I am again having doubts about both GC and Mylo

[GuiltyLion]

I wish I did, but not really other than some of his votes feeling opportunistic.

further, I agree with this and I'm wondering if brass is a better lynch than GC or Mylo. I know some have decided his interactions with BuJaber are unlikely to be a bus, and I occasionally feel this way myself, but everything else he's done this game is fairly safe and scummy. And I don't really see his vote on BuJaber as impossible to be a bus - he entered the game with it, then unvoted, then decided he "wanted back on" and then didn't really push much after that.

He was on the Mylo wagon several times but hasn't shown any interest in pushing it today. And a number of his votes have been all been careful and opportunistic, and often justified by the gamestate rather than the player's play

Recent posts by Green Crayon are pretty okay. Also, Math, in regards to your list of lynches, I really dislike lining up all the lynches beforehand in any order. We need to be able to adjust to new information. I will not be following some preset list of lynches for you.

I'm also a bit curious as to why Mylo came in, said he talks more day 2 and says nothing else other than go with the idea that never gets him hanged. My vote looks good there while I drink my coffee this morning.

VOTE: Mylo

The "my vote looks good there while I drink my coffee this morning" feels awkward and over-explainy

VOTE: davesaz

The case here seems good, and the Mylo wagon is totally stalled.

GC already pointed out that the "Mylo wagon" wasn't really stalled, just slow developing. It was still the leading wagon.

Well, with a vote count, I'm willing to switch over. That fake town tell is something I have only seem scum do.

VOTE: Gamma L-1 for reals.

The "fake town tell" was enough to L-1 his prior townread Gamma, despite the fact that other players (both Mylo and myself) had said it looked like a town reaction?

Okay, looking at Math's scum game, I'm willing to say this is closer to a town play for him than a scum play. He is good as scum as well, but I see enough differences to give leeway to him. Also, I'm not sure that scum would commit so fully to continually telling us how many mislynches we have. That just feels more towny than anything else. I guess for now I am willing to follow him while his reads at least partially align with mine anyway. I don't think GC is scum, I believe I explained that Day 2, so, a Mylo lynch today for me if I'm following Dino's lynch pool.

VOTE: Mylo

I called this out earlier:

I agree that brass' interactions around BuJaber were decent but he feels stiff and careful in a lot of his posts/votes. like 1401 feels like a really careful post

This game is stagnant. I want to end the day because right now we are going nowhere to that end

VOTE: GuiltyLion

^justifying his vote with the game being "stagnant" rather than me being likely scum

[GuiltyLion]

also, I just completed a newbie game that brass was in and town, and I was scum. He was townreading me in that game, but my play in that game was a bit more detached and logical and cautious than it is in this game. I always play newbies a bit more carefully/logically and friendly, I'm not trying to say I'm town by self-meta, but I think brass could have jumped on inconsistencies between my play in that game and my play here if he were trying to sort me. (I was actually kinda worried that I might have to change up my play in the Newbie to better match my play here)

VOTE: brassherald

I know this is a bit of a flip from where I was at earlier, but given the entirety of GC's play today I do get the sense that he's involved and trying to sort, especially his activity towards deadline. brass is coasting

[Green Crayons]

ugh. now i'm going to have to reread brass.

[Myloninja13]

Guys, we have less than 48 hours! And we a no lynch here wouldn't be pretty at all.

[Kmd4390]

Guys, we have less than 48 hours! And we a no lynch here wouldn't be pretty at all.

Then put Guiltylion at L-1

[Aster]

but I think brass could have jumped on inconsistencies between my play in that game and my play here if he were trying to sort me.

I'd like to note that doing so while the game was still ongoing may've run afoul of the "Do not talk about ongoing games" rule.

[Aster]

Vote Count 3.10

Votee	Voters
Green Crayons (3)	Ankamius (1465), Mathdino (1573), Myloninja13 (1597)
GuiltyLion (3)	Something_Smart (1471), Kmd4390 (1472), brassherald (1541)
brassherald (1)	GuiltyLion (1617)
Mathdino (1)	verydark (1513)
Myloninja13 (1)	Green Crayons (1548)

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

[Mathdino]

also, I just completed a newbie game that brass was in and town, and I was scum. He was townreading me in that game, but my play in that game was a bit more detached and logical and cautious than it is in this game. I always play newbies a bit more carefully/logically and friendly, I'm not trying to say I'm town by self-meta, but I think brass could have jumped on inconsistencies between my play in that game and my play here if he were trying to sort me. (I was actually kinda worried that I might have to change up my play in the Newbie to better match my play here)

VOTE: brassherald

I know this is a bit of a flip from where I was at earlier, but given the entirety of GC's play today I do get the sense that he's involved and trying to sort, especially his activity towards deadline. brass is coasting

wait a second did you just claim scum by meta though

[Myloninja13]

I've made like 18 posts but backspaced them here, I just don't know what to say.