Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[MagnaofIllusion]

Be less smug and condescending. If you're so out of touch you don't have any idea who Magna is, you definitely need to fuck off of your high horse.

Pine I respect you want to make things less toxic but don’t feel the need if it is on my behalf. I think OldMan is specifically being insulting as a tactic. He’s clearly an alt and I get the feeling he thinks by being insulting he can “put me on tilt” as the poker term goes. It doesn’t bother me as I recognize it for what it is.

--

And? What's scummy about "hyperbole and grandstanding"? Please explain.

It means that your reliance on talking down to those who disagree with you and thus I don’t really feel the need to engage with you to any large degree. This isn’t debate class where I feel the need to post many, many wall responses to your long posts to “win points”. I’m scum reading you and have explained my position to you. I’m not going to convince you that you are scum. I’m posting to explain to others why you are scum. They are the target market for my posts not you.

Yes, I believe I have been making it clear that you are spinning me as staging an attack regardless of alignment. What if Eddie Cane flips scum?

Eddie flipping scum would oblivate my feeling that you were stage-setting for his flip since that would make no sense for a partner to do when he knew Eddie would never flip Town. It would certainly trigger a full re-evaluation of my read. For someone who just chastised me for “putting words in Kison’s mouth” you seem very comfortable making assumptions as to what I would say or do.

[MagnaofIllusion]

While I'm friendsish with 1 of them, that's insulting as heck I showed you being the dick first and this is what you came back with? I've thick skin, but I would've liked an apology or acknowledgment or something. This is OOG mostly so don't waste a post replying to it tack it on to your next one.

Sorry if you are insulted … but I can’t help that. You may not like the comparison (Math also dislikes it) but the three of you share a psychological profile keyed to certain common elements. Case in point – later in this same post you equate someone voting your strongest Townread as a slap in the face. That’s pretty telling to me and aligns very much with the mindset (not specific playstyle … you all have your own individual) I see with Math and used to see with RC before I made a specific goal to avoid playing with him.

On the issue of “me being a dick first” and wanting an apology – you jumped to a conclusion. My RVS post isn’t meant to say I dislike you. I don’t know you at all. I neither like or dislike you in general since you don’t have a common game history with me. Pine I do know and I do like. So if you feel that my post was a personal insult that’s a incorrect conclusion. However it is where I twigged to your psychological makeup. Take this for what you will. I certainly didn’t intend to insult you and feel saddened you took it as such.

--

Old Man voters, any reply to this? Unvoting me (MoI) or tring me (Rofl) and voting my strong TR is a bit of a slap in the face.

Well I’ll reply below but given our relative lack of common history I don’t know why you would expect me to sublimate my own thoughts to yours.

OldMan was one of the last additions that occurred when Ecto and Shea chose not to confirm. So he had over 48 hours to get the alt up and running and thus I don’t necessarily think he was specifically invited. As to the “angleshooting” (which for the record I don’t follow what I assume was a MafiaUniverse generated term so take that for what it is worth) – he chose the avatar before he had his role PM. I saw it in the signup thread. So choosing that avatar isn’t a Town tell to me as he can certainly could have pulled a scum PM. And given who I think his main might be it certainly isn’t out of that players range to try to sell it as such when they are scum.

Given I think his play is suspect I don’t put much stock in his pushes aligning with Town play but understand why you would. Let me ask though – do you find scum playing to pocket you as Town when under attack? Something I think you should mull over.

Also – do your really given Fire making those two posts as his only content constitutes game engagement?

[Old Man]

Pine I respect you want to make things less toxic but don’t feel the need if it is on my behalf. I think OldMan is specifically being insulting as a tactic. He’s clearly an alt and I get the feeling he thinks by being insulting he can “put me on tilt” as the poker term goes. It doesn’t bother me as I recognize it for what it is.

I apologize if you feel that you've been personally insulted. That was never my intention, but I will attack your points if I see that they are logically unsound or detrimental to the state of the game and to my win condition. But, of course, that applies for everyone.

My intent was to determine your competency level as scum. Pine has helpfully offered his self-meta and opinion of his competencies as the two main alignments. I've yet to diagnose yours.

Pine, you mentioned that the difference between your town and scum offering of your self-meta, was that, as town you'd make the previous post, while as scum you'd let others do the work and testify on your behalf instead. What do you make of Magna's lack of initiative in providing his own self-meta? Of note is that this would be identical as the action as you would have done yourself as scum. And what do you make by interpreting, deliberately or otherwise, my hints for the aforementioned as a personal attack, thereby devolving an otherwise civil argument into one laced with ad hominem?

And? What's scummy about "hyperbole and grandstanding"? Please explain.

It means that your reliance on talking down to those who disagree with you and thus I don’t really feel the need to engage with you to any large degree. This isn’t debate class where I feel the need to post many, many wall responses to your long posts to “win points”. I’m scum reading you and have explained my position to you. I’m not going to convince you that you are scum. I’m posting to explain to others why you are scum. They are the target market for my posts not you.

I apologize if you feel that I have been talking down to you. But, as I said above, engage with my points instead of lazily waving them off. I will call them out as I see fit.

Yes, I believe I have been making it clear that you are spinning me as staging an attack regardless of alignment. What if Eddie Cane flips scum?

Eddie flipping scum would oblivate my feeling that you were stage-setting for his flip since that would make no sense for a partner to do when he knew Eddie would never flip Town. It would certainly trigger a full re-evaluation of my read. For someone who just chastised me for “putting words in Kison’s mouth” you seem very comfortable making assumptions as to what I would say or do.

Fair enough.

I'm comfortable with making assumptions as to what you would say, because

I am actively engaging you in discussion directly and challenging you to clarify your stance, or to explain yourself as necessary

. Even if you see no need to convince me because you think I am scum, which you're wrong about, I hope you agree with me that such clarification also makes your argument more convincing and helps other town, your "target market", to see your point of view, and achieve your goal by placing their vote on me.

Putting words into other people's mouths is a different issue entirely, and it's scummy. It falls under the misrepping/strawmanning of arguments category of scumtells, though I expect that you're competent enough to know why that would be scummy. Sometimes town do that too, but, my point is that they are two different things. I'm not sure what your purpose is in bringing that up, except to backhandedly throw shade onto my slot.

[Old Man]

I forgot:

UNVOTE: Chamber
VOTE: Tywin Lannister

To give the chamber slot and replacement some space while I'm V/LA.

[Pine]

Be less smug and condescending. If you're so out of touch you don't have any idea who Magna is, you definitely need to fuck off of your high horse.

Pine I respect you want to make things less toxic but don’t feel the need if it is on my behalf. I think OldMan is specifically being insulting as a tactic. He’s clearly an alt and I get the feeling he thinks by being insulting he can “put me on tilt” as the poker term goes. It doesn’t bother me as I recognize it for what it is.

See, if you perceive that OM is trying to put you on tilt in order to get scum!MoI to be reckless and make a revelatory mistake, that should obviate your scumread on him. But...it isn't.

Now I *do* suspect you, for this cogdis.

@OM: Everyone has their own style. MoI not conforming to mine is not a relevant reason to think anything about him. That said, see above dissonance-based suspicion of him.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My intent was to determine your competency level as scum. Pine has helpfully offered his self-meta and opinion of his competencies as the two main alignments. I've yet to diagnose yours.

Perhaps you should take up those Marketing classes after all because this is a terrible, terrible sales job.

I'd love for others to weigh in if they think you honestly were trying to get me to disclose some sort of self-assessment as scum as opposed to a specific attempt to insult and undermine.

Anyone not OldMan - please weigh in on this issue.

[MagnaofIllusion]

See, if you perceive that OM is trying to put you on tilt in order to get scum!MoI to be reckless and make a revelatory mistake, that should obviate your scumread on him. But...it isn't.

Now I *do* suspect you, for this cogdis.

Um ... I think it is ScumOM trying to take TownMoI's focus away from finding scum besides himself and instead get into a wall battle that most likely serves to turn off most players. Where do you get the conclusion that I think it is a Town OM tactic and that it lessens my scumread on him?

[Kison]

I don't get the Old Man srs, its clearly a gimmick alt look at his fuckin name lmao. I guarantee someone in this game knows who it is and told him to sign up, because the signups were quick asf and what are the odds someone who hasn't been here in so long doesn't remember his PW and checks the site right for the geriatric signups and moreover picks the name "Old Man". His angleshooting with the avi feels genuine though I think its bunk. His catchup and pushes align well and they feel genuine too. Someone finally acknowledges whats happening in 110, and I don't think scum does that.

I don't think it says much one way or another whether he was invited, saw the game by chance, or knew the game was coming up & deliberately made an alt. Avatar gimmick seemed slimy & schmoozey. If it was an off the cuff, brief remark, I'd probably agree with you. His chamber push was pretty over the top & didn't seem genuine to me.

I think he's funny though.

VOTE: Old Man

Look at that avatar and try to tell me it's not scum.

I strongly agree with this reasoning, this avatar is indeed scum. Kison is town for this.

VOTE: Old Man

On a more serious note, I genuinely am liking this post; there are a few reasons why I picked this avatar, one of which was to garner reactions and as a sort of social experiment to hypothesize if it would result in a policy lynch, or, at the least, a couple of RVS votes. And, those votes would more likely than not come from town, under the theory that scum would not blatantly vote for another player with such obviously flimsy reasoning, in order to keep up some facade of self-preservation.

I see, I see.

UNVOTE: Axelrod
VOTE: Old Man

How do you like this one?

We're past the point for jokes like that. Move forward, not backward.

Show me the way forward, Messiah & maybe I'll move. But you gotta do a better job than you did with Tywin because I ain't seein' it.

[Pine]

See, if you perceive that OM is trying to put you on tilt in order to get scum!MoI to be reckless and make a revelatory mistake, that should obviate your scumread on him. But...it isn't.

Now I *do* suspect you, for this cogdis.

Um ... I think it is ScumOM trying to take TownMoI's focus away from finding scum besides himself and instead get into a wall battle that most likely serves to turn off most players. Where do you get the conclusion that I think it is a Town OM tactic and that it lessens my scumread on him?

I may have misinterpreted your "on tilt" comment. I accept this explanation for now.

[roflcopter]

eddie i don't think you're scum but that doesn't mean i think all your reads are right. old man is all in on whiteknighting you, making your opinion of him pretty much the least consequential of anyone. don't take these things personally, difference of opinion in a mafia game should never be seen as "a slap in the face."

if i have to read one more seventeen sentence paragraph on the minutia of what constitutes a newbie under what circumstances i'm going to lose my marbles. from my understanding geriatric games are meant to free us from the shackles of overactive games that the average player couldn't keep up with. writing a novella every time you post causes just about the same problem, and old man is pontificating for the sake of burying this thread in his wordiness and trying to bait people into wall battling him. let's kick this game inaugural geriatric game off with an appropriate dose of dramatic irony by lynching the elderly.

tl;dr please help me feed old man the rope

[Pine]

I'm starting to come around to where you are on Old Man. There's a lot there that seems disingenuous and calculated, and I'm not a fan. I'll be keeping my vote on Chamber, but I could see moving there too.

I think roflcopter may be my spirit animal this game. We seem to be pretty in sync.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also for everyone on the fence about OldMan being a good vote …

Let’s examine his latest vote for Tywin from 178 and follow it backwards.

His reasoning for suspecting Tywin – found at 147 where he compliments Hito on his case regarding Tywin scum at 124

I’ll summarize – hito finds Tywin’s posting regarding at 99 feels like a workshopped defense of both Eddie and Pine in which Tywin doesn’t actually say that either Eddie or Pine are Town and that a Pine flip (and to a lesser degree Eddie) would implicate Tywin as a partner.

Ok … so OldMan finds this credible. And yet who is he voting? Twyin who is the relational scum

AFTER

a Pine (or Eddie) scum flip.

OldMan clearly has been defending Eddie as Town since OM’s first post. But his thoughts on Pine? Let’s look at this segment from his post to me from 177.

Pine, you mentioned that the difference between your town and scum offering of your self-meta, was that, as town you'd make the previous post, while as scum you'd let others do the work and testify on your behalf instead. What do you make of Magna's lack of initiative in providing his own self-meta? Of note is that this would be identical as the action as you would have done yourself as scum. And what do you make by interpreting, deliberately or otherwise, my hints for the aforementioned as a personal attack, thereby devolving an otherwise civil argument into one laced with ad hominem?

Is that how Town talks to a scum suspect? Nope. He’s hard charging to get Pine to scum read me and reaching out to Pine.

So the conclusion – OldMan would have you believe he’s Town who is voting Twyin based soley on Hito's case when the entirety of the case Hito laid out is predicted on one or both of Pine / Eddie to be scum. And OldMan clearly doesn’t think either one is scum.

Aka OldMan wants to lynch a relational tell when he doesn’t believe the relations that tell is based on. Aka scum fabricating beliefs instead of actually scumhunting. Or distancing from a partner.

Either way vote away!

[Eddie Cane]

Spoiler:

-snip-

first, why does it feel like almost all of your questions are directed towards me?

Pine I respect you want to make things less toxic but don’t feel the need if it is on my behalf. I think OldMan is specifically being insulting as a tactic. He’s clearly an alt and I get the feeling he thinks by being insulting he can “put me on tilt” as the poker term goes. It doesn’t bother me as I recognize it for what it is.

Yea, but wouldn't that put you on tilt towards him being scum? Idgi.

Sorry if you are insulted … but I can’t help that. You may not like the comparison (Math also dislikes it) but the three of you share a psychological profile keyed to certain common elements. Case in point – later in this same post you equate someone voting your strongest Townread as a slap in the face. That’s pretty telling to me and aligns very much with the mindset (not specific playstyle … you all have your own individual) I see with Math and used to see with RC before I made a specific goal to avoid playing with him.

On the issue of “me being a dick first” and wanting an apology – you jumped to a conclusion. My RVS post isn’t meant to say I dislike you. I don’t know you at all. I neither like or dislike you in general since you don’t have a common game history with me. Pine I do know and I do like. So if you feel that my post was a personal insult that’s a incorrect conclusion. However it is where I twigged to your psychological makeup. Take this for what you will. I certainly didn’t intend to insult you and feel saddened you took it as such.

This is the analysis Mastina gave of me for her team mafia team:

Eddie Cane/skirt skirt is by far the undeniably best scumhunter in this group. He is competent and he is one of the only players on mafiascum who is still capable of making good solid reasons when he is providing his reads. As a result, he is a huge threat. However, he is rather prone to insulting players. We're not going to get him ejected from the game and even could we that would be a deplorable strategy to try and employ, but what we CAN do is get him emotional because when he is emotional he is compromised. His charisma can go downhill fast, especially when he is stuck with people who won't listen. Still, the best solution for him is to nightkill him.

A huge part of how I sort is what Elli calls personality analysis, which is basically extracting meta from 1 game - I read a lot into people and their motivations. Mathdino is a pretty alright player and has the rare quality of trying to improve himself, and RC used to be a very good albeit sometimes toxic player. I don't appreciate being compared to RC because I'm trying to be the Nacho style of good (getting people to work together and factoring others' reads to make my own) rather than the old RC style of good (>>rand reads and screaming at people until I'm sheeped). We can talk about this more in postgame if it comes up though.

Well I’ll reply below but given our relative lack of common history I don’t know why you would expect me to sublimate my own thoughts to yours.

Its more like you acknowledged I'm town / might not be scum so you should hopefully want to dialogue / work with me at least somewhat, and you're voting someone I talked lots about so its an easy thing to engage with. I don't really expect it but its something I like.

OldMan was one of the last additions that occurred when Ecto and Shea chose not to confirm. So he had over 48 hours to get the alt up and running and thus I don’t necessarily think he was specifically invited. As to the “angleshooting” (which for the record I don’t follow what I assume was a MafiaUniverse generated term so take that for what it is worth) – he chose the avatar before he had his role PM. I saw it in the signup thread. So choosing that avatar isn’t a Town tell to me as he can certainly could have pulled a scum PM. And given who I think his main might be it certainly isn’t out of that players range to try to sell it as such when they are scum.

That's fair enough (I really wanted to play with Fishy ) but as Kison says below I still think its a gimmick alt of someone still around or at least around in discord or irc or wherever. Angleshooting is from MU and I've never played there either but its a useful word; yea, he chose the avi before he had the role pm, but its a weiiird ass angle to push if scum and I haven't got the impression its the sole focus of his reads or anything. If anything he probably decided to do that in pregame so its NAI, meh. The thing that worries me most about him is buddying but the kind of defense he gave in 110 isn't the kind of thing I find scum usually saying. I guess I just don't see what's scummy there and he has a panache that I like. Back to your first part about being tactically assholish, like what does he accomplish by tilting you? Your mislynch? The biggest town indicative thing to me is one of my favourite personal tells, dunno if I want to out that here yet though I'll wait to see how I feel about his lynch.

Given I think his play is suspect I don’t put much stock in his pushes aligning with Town play but understand why you would. Let me ask though – do you find scum playing to pocket you as Town when under attack? Something I think you should mull over.

Um, generalizing too much probably but sometimes. Not too often. I'm also wagoned rarely so it isn't something that comes up a lot.

Also – do your really given Fire making those two posts as his only content constitutes game engagement?

For that part of the game, ya. Like I said, if he keeps it up he's town, if he flakes on it and get bored he isn't necessarily scum but its much more likely.

Pine, you mentioned that the difference between your town and scum offering of your self-meta, was that, as town you'd make the previous post, while as scum you'd let others do the work and testify on your behalf instead. What do you make of Magna's lack of initiative in providing his own self-meta? Of note is that this would be identical as the action as you would have done yourself as scum. And what do you make by interpreting, deliberately or otherwise, my hints for the aforementioned as a personal attack, thereby devolving an otherwise civil argument into one laced with ad hominem?

Irrelevant.

I'd love for others to weigh in if they think you honestly were trying to get me to disclose some sort of self-assessment as scum as opposed to a specific attempt to insult and undermine.

Anyone not OldMan - please weigh in on this issue.

I would be lying if I said I read every word of his posts but I didn't get that no. The above interaction with you Old Man and Pine is confusing me a lot ngl

I don't think it says much one way or another whether he was invited, saw the game by chance, or knew the game was coming up & deliberately made an alt. Avatar gimmick seemed slimy & schmoozey. If it was an off the cuff, brief remark, I'd probably agree with you. His chamber push was pretty over the top & didn't seem genuine to me.

I think he's funny though.

I like the gimmick too - I don't think his avatar stuff can be anything worse than null though.

eddie i don't think you're scum but that doesn't mean i think all your reads are right. old man is all in on whiteknighting you, making your opinion of him pretty much the least consequential of anyone. don't take these things personally, difference of opinion in a mafia game should never be seen as "a slap in the face."

Yea, a LOT of his content is about me. Just checked, ctrl F Eddie had 69 results in his iso

if i have to read one more seventeen sentence paragraph on the minutia of what constitutes a newbie under what circumstances i'm going to lose my marbles. from my understanding geriatric games are meant to free us from the shackles of overactive games that the average player couldn't keep up with. writing a novella every time you post causes just about the same problem, and old man is pontificating for the sake of burying this thread in his wordiness and trying to bait people into wall battling him. let's kick this game inaugural geriatric game off with an appropriate dose of dramatic irony by lynching the elderly.

real fuckin shit, so much semantics. i'm tryna keep these quote walls not wordy for the most part i'm a player who plays real time mafia and is used to sorting with conversations so idk how to play with 10 posts

I'm starting to come around to where you are on Old Man. There's a lot there that seems disingenuous and calculated, and I'm not a fan. I'll be keeping my vote on Chamber, but I could see moving there too.

Kison said his Chamber push felt disingenuous; do you agree?

Sidebar: has anybody actually given a read on Tywin aside from "probably scum if Pine or Eddie are scum"?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sidebar: has anybody actually given a read on Tywin aside from "probably scum if Pine or Eddie are scum"?

Don't think so. Mainly because he has so little content. I'm personally waiting on his feedback on the questions I answered and subsequent followup questions for him to answer.

[Firebringer]

What’s up everyone?

You all miss me?
I know I missed you

Well mostly just Eddie Cane and Pine but rest of you are okay.
Also my boi Kison.

So my read on MoI being scum is stronger than before by his reactions to my posts. On several points he seems to be engaging in behavior which I think of as “discredit to push” meaning he says many personal things about his opinion of me to factors in this game as though they applicable. For example his post

Also – do your really given Fire making those two posts as his only content constitutes game engagement?

says this about my previous posts which are extremely engaged. How exactly has my posts not been engaged MoI?

On Firebringer – thanks … if you are indeed Town and are better equipped to read him that would be an asset because generally I want to hang him pretty much every game.

This is what I had in past normally constitute a “Town MoI” post but he has done these things in past to mislead me by throwing personal opinions of his dislike of me to make me think he was Town and being genuine.
I also think scum MoI here would be more likely to outsource a read on me than town him who tends to be engaged with me regardless.

What do I think about your scumread on me? I don’t. It’s basically empty fluffing and of no concern for me. I could have been cheeky and said something like that pretty much should confirm me as Town since you’ve never had any ability to read me at all but that would be predicated on you being Town and I don’t have any evidence of that so far.

Untrue. Read you right in every game except The
I think you saying my read is pointless fluff is also again another discredit. This post is probably NAI though.

There’s things MoI pokes people about that I know just think he does to mildly irritate in order to get people to townread him for his “bluntness”. For example his comparison of Eddie to RC.

@Pine So you think I’m trying to pocket you? I thought I was trying to be pocketed. Either way, why not take me up on it today to get a double vote? I am wondering if you saw through my claim for us to be masons as masons and then decided to go against that because you believed I would be suspicious of you or what. Unsure what to think of your reaction in a lot of ways, but I think it was more scum than Town. I think Town you would tell me who vote for but scum you might not be so ready for that.

When I do reaction tests I probably should consider what I am looking for before I do them. Impulsiveness is my bane.

I think PJ is very Town here in quite a few ways after reading posts. 1) angleshooting that seems townie 2) level of effort that Pj probably can’t replicate in a scum fashion. Also played with pj and his scum I would describe as more “play dumb”

Eddie Caannneeee
What up buddy? I am glad you appreciate my wall posts. I think your stuff about my style is a little off but not far from accurate. You are now top of my townreads. Want to take a guess why?

[Eddie Cane]

Is it because I'm the best?

How bad is PJ at scum? lmao, his iso doesn't have a high level of effort at all is this like old people's versions of creature? What angleshooting seemed townie? Dunno man I think every one of his posts pinged me at least a bit I don't get a "very town" vibe

[Pine]

I'll take a double vote, Fire, sure.

[Kmd4390]

Introduction

Ok...

So before my V/LA, I feel like I wasn't doing shit here and usually when that happens, it's because I'm busy. But I was here. And I'm not usually a nothing to say kind of player, but that's where I was. Everything in the first few pages felt dry to read and like petty disagreements between two players not worth weighing in on and I just had nothing to say. So I'm gonna try this again from the beginning and at least give my two cents on everything that stands out as a talking point. Hopefully as I get going, new things stand out to me too. I'm fully aware that a lot of this is likely to come off as fence sitty or IIOA because I didn't get strong reads from it the first time. I'm gonna do it anyway because I want to get involved and develop better reads. So here it goes.

The Eddie and Pine confirmations

To me, the confirmations themselves really didn't mean much. The interesting things are the wagon on Eddie and the reactions from both players.

Eddie's wagon

-
1. Magna's vote is what started it. He's the one who brought up the confirmations. I'd ask why he brought it up, but I mean...first post outside of confirmations, it's like the only thing that can really stand out. I don't see any reason why town or scum is more likely to notice that.

2. Insanity's vote is clearly wagoning for the sake of wagoning. That's normal in RVS. Also doesn't give me a read.

3. Hito's vote is more of the same along with an RQS-type question which I don't how it could be scummy unless someone wants to argue that he's buddying Rofl, but I don't see it. I'd give Hito a weak town read if anything.

4.Jelly's vote is the first one that stands out to me. He voted after Eddie posted and questioned him on it. He was the fifth vote. In my opinion, Jelly is the one who made this a serious push and it's not a push I like.

5. Chamber's vote isn't great in my opinion. It was delayed and came right after Pine began pressuring him (Chamber). It seemed more like he felt obligated to match his vote to his words than it felt like he was voting where he genuinely believed he'd find scum.

Pine's reaction

- I believe him that he had a ruleset question and I believe him about what that question was. It was weird to me at first that he didn't specify what it was but I can see him not wanting to go into it. He initially replied calmly which means he wasn't at all rattled by being a topic of conversation to start the game. He gets a little heated later on, but nothing in that feels out of the ordinary for him.

Chamber's reaction to Eddie's reaction and Pine's vote on Chamber

- I'm not sure what Chamber saw that he didn't like. Also not sure why Pine sees scum motivation in Chamber's post. I'm interested to know both of those things.

Axelrod

- This one is weird to me. He seems to think that the case is that Eddie and Pine confirmed in a scum PT. I don't think anyone ever said that? Being willing to believe that, however, would have to be faked if he was scum and I think it's a reach to say that he'd think to do that at this point. Choosing to vote Pine over Eddie stands out as weird, but I don't think it's scummy. I'm gonna go ahead and throw Axel in the town bin for now...

Kison's reaction

- Is the only opinion you have really that it's "silly"? No more details than that? Nothing on the people on the wagon?

The PGO claim

The claim itself

- I believe the claim. There's no reason not to. If he's scum, there's no sense in giving himself that target unless he's trying to avoid being targeted at night. If he's town, it's better to just assume he's telling the truth. I think this is the kind of thing that will be cleared up as the game goes on, but for now I'm going to treat CoolDog as a town PGO.

Reactions

-
1. Magna. I actually like him confronting the issue the way he did. It reads pretty town to me. It's lacking a certain opportunism a scum push might have. It doesn't feel like a knee jerk "OMG Page 1 claim, vote vote vote" kind of thing. It's a "here's how this will be dealt with" that he appears to have thought of logicially and with the good of town in mind. Early town read on Magna.

2. Chamber asked Magna why he assumed the claim was serious. I was confused by that question. Why would it not be serious? And if CoolDog were to come in and say "lol jk", sure maybe people who believed him look dumb for it, but when I see a claim from anyone in this playerlist except two people, I'm going to treat it as a real claim (I'm not believing any claims from Firebringer and if Eddie claims I'm going to be skeptical depending on the situation).

3. Roflcopter. I still think this is town. I already said why and Pine elaborated as well. It feels like a town mindset.

Old Man being on an alt

The decision to do so

- There's no point in even discussing this. He obviously decided to do it before the game started so it has nothing to do with his alignment. If we dislike it, we should get over it and suck it up. If we don't have a problem with it, cool. It really does not matter.

Magna's reaction

- I read it as a joke. Chamber read it as a joke. Magna confirmed it was a joke. Nothing to see here.

Chamber's reaction

- I believe that he's genuinely annoyed and would be as either alignment. I really don't want to see him replace out over it for the record. Replace outs bother me more than any hidden alt ever could.

Pine's response to Chamber

- I don't like that this made something not alignment related the focus of the game, but the "Rant over" line makes me think Pine never intended for it to be more than a post or two.

Eddie's vote on me

1. By saying not RVS, he made it clear he had a reason for the vote. I can't think of a good reason for scum to withhold that reason. As town, I can see him reaction testing or waiting for more info. So Eddie can be an early town read for me.

2. Pine called the vote "unremarkable". I'm curious why.

3. Magna seems to see Eddie waiting as coasting. That's perfectly reasonable. I know Eddie isn't the type to coast though so there's clearly more coming.

Jelly is giving me scum vibes

1. See #4 under Eddie's wagon in this post.

2. Post 64 is just terrible. He gives names to lynch without a single reason. Two of those names are players who seem to be drawing negative attention, one of which already has a wagon of six. And the other player (Axel) had been pretty quiet making him appear to be another easy target. Also not believing the PGO claim is a little weird. Or at least feeling the need to tell us that if he's not interested in it.

Firebringer seemingly wanting to be policy lynched

Come on. Seriously.

Slight scum vibes from Chamber

1. See #5 on my section of this post on Eddie's wagon.

2. He seems to be focusing on things that don't matter (Old Man being an alt, Some of his stuff on Eddie)

3. I don't like post 75 where he names a scum team and asks if it's too easy.

Conclusions

1. I have some level of a town read on the following players: Axel, CoolDog, Eddie, Hito, Magna, Pine, Rofl

2. I have some level of a scum read on the following players: Jelly, Chamber, Kison

3. I need to do a better job sorting the following players: Firebringer, Insanity, Old Man, Tywin

_____________

So that's everything that I had read already. Next time I can actually do stuff (don't worry it should be tomorrow), I'll focus on catching up on what I missed. I'll be starting at Old Man's entrance.

Unvote

[hitogoroshi]

Done with moving. Will still be a little patchy as I get situated but I'm not V/LA at least.

Hito

– What does Insanity’s lack of Axel vote say to you about her alignment?

Let me rain check this until Insanity posts a couple more times.

I think I agree with Old Man 147 that Tywin 99 is kind of just plain scummy regardless of Eddie/Pine, without it being super associative like I was billing it at first.

I really like Axelrod 151. It's an easy trap to say wagons are "scum-driven" or "town-driven", but it's the correct attitude to make people actually cough up names and Axel's pressuring is good.

I'm more comfortable with Insanity town now. It felt like he was the person voting me who was most trying to sort me.

What prompted this? You have tons of posts between this one and the last time Insanity posted.

eddie i don't think you're scum but that doesn't mean i think all your reads are right. old man is all in on whiteknighting you, making your opinion of him pretty much the least consequential of anyone. don't take these things personally, difference of opinion in a mafia game should never be seen as "a slap in the face."

if i have to read one more seventeen sentence paragraph on the minutia of what constitutes a newbie under what circumstances i'm going to lose my marbles. from my understanding geriatric games are meant to free us from the shackles of overactive games that the average player couldn't keep up with. writing a novella every time you post causes just about the same problem, and old man is pontificating for the sake of burying this thread in his wordiness and trying to bait people into wall battling him. let's kick this game inaugural geriatric game off with an appropriate dose of dramatic irony by lynching the elderly.

tl;dr please help me feed old man the rope

This is a great post. Well, actually I'm not super sold on Old Man as scum because I'm also on the lynching Tywin train, but the main point stands that the wall wars are polluting this game and are undoubtedly pro-scum no matter the alignment of the participants, and this is a good attempt at cleanup that scum probably wouldn't have tried for.

Break for legibility.

[hitogoroshi]

I'm starting to come around to where you are on Old Man. There's a lot there that seems disingenuous and calculated, and I'm not a fan. I'll be keeping my vote on Chamber, but I could see moving there too.

I think roflcopter may be my spirit animal this game. We seem to be pretty in sync.

I don't like the vote hold - chamber is getting replaced out, and the OM wagon has more traction, so if you like it why not hop on a wagon in motion instead of keeping your vote camped on a dude who's leaving?

Also "we seem to be pretty in sync" with no qualifiers is another instance of Pine intimating Eddie is town without talking about Eddie's posting to do it.

MoI, your 186 is silly because Old Man

explicitly

said he likes Tywin scum independently of Eddie/Pine, not associatively like I was reading it.

So my read on MoI being scum is stronger than before by his reactions to my posts. On several points he seems to be engaging in behavior which I think of as “discredit to push” meaning he says many personal things about his opinion of me to factors in this game as though they applicable.

he does that all the time, as all alignments

I'll take a double vote, Fire, sure.

"It's for this chamber wagon I've been sitting on and barely talking about all game. come on pull up a chair"

3. Hito's vote is more of the same along with an RQS-type question which I don't how it could be scummy unless someone wants to argue that he's buddying Rofl, but I don't see it. I'd give Hito a weak town read if anything.

For the record, the main reason I brought up that question is that this seems like the kind of games where people might say "Listen, I know X looks scummy, but it's ~legendary player X~ I can't possibly wagon them today", so figured I'd head it off at the pass and give people a chance to gush up front instead of having them pull it out only when a wagon gets moving.

--

I actually almost always get scum pings on MoI regardless of alignment, so me not getting them probably means he's town? Axel is probably my strongest town read, and also I believe CD is probably telling the truth about PGO.

Old Man's style is annoying to read without some flips. It's kind of the same tone I affected with Copper, where it's so deliberate it's easy to fake as scum.

Still don't like Pine or Tywin. Could maybe go for an Eddie wagon. But all three of those feel like they're in the state where I want to heavily index on their next few posts, so for now I kinda want to just flashwagon Kison and see what happens when he has to do something other than coast

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kison

[petroleumjelly]

1.)

I'd love for others to weigh in if they think you honestly were trying to get me to disclose some sort of self-assessment as scum as opposed to a specific attempt to insult and undermine.

Old Man oversells himself. He claims to be running experiments, diagnoses, constantly points out how much he is "engaging," and directly invites people to exchange walls with him (i.e., "I have hundreds of words... is that all you have to comment on?"). He is trying very hard to present himself as keen dissector of posts and being highly logical, etc. I also agree that his "oh, you got your first Scummie after eight years?" comment was uncalled for and fishing for a negative reaction; I don't believe it was intended to help "sort" you.

I can definitely say I am not

enjoying

Old Man's posting very much. I have a mild scumread overall. As I mentioned previously, I particularly do not like his highly exaggerated language when talking about the Eddie Cane wagon (calling it "disgusting," etc.). I do recognize that there is a part of me that

wants

him to be scum, though.

2.)

I think PJ is very Town here in quite a few ways after reading posts. 1) angleshooting that seems townie 2) level of effort that Pj probably can’t replicate in a scum fashion. Also played with pj and his scum I would describe as more “play dumb”

You might be basing your read on our face-to-face interactions at the Pleasanton meet. I think my online play is very different. Without going too deep into a self-meta thing, I would say I am formidable as scum.

3.)

Pine, what are your thoughts on Axelrod?

4.)

Eddie Cane, let's assume I believe that your delayed in-thread confirmation was a joke that really didn't land for me. If you can explain it, do you have any particular reasons behind your behavior up until Post 128 (when you seem to take the game more seriously)?

5.)

Kmd4390, in Post #192 you give Eddie Cane a Townread because he voted you for a non-random reason without explaining why, and you "can't think of a good reason for scum to withhold that reason." You then call my Post #164 "terrible" because I give names to lynch "without a single reason." Could you explain this a bit more?

As an aside, you suggest that I tacked Axelrod as a lynch target because he hadn't posted much and therefore seemed to be an 'easy target.' Under no circumstances would I call Axelrod an "easy target." I have played with him long ago, and he is excellent. (And had I answered hitogoroshi's question about who I was most excited to play with, my answer would have been Axelrod). I currently having a mild but cautious Townread on him.

[Korts]

@chamber: since your replacement request does not follow rule (6), I don't consider it an official request. You can make it officially if you wish. If you have behavior complaints against other players, I had hoped the first step would be reaching out to me.

@Old Man: I consider your behavior in violation of rule (4). Either stop spewing open contempt at everyone, or be force-replaced.

[Kmd4390]

Jelly it's the way it was done. Eddie intentionally withheld his reasoning and made a point in making sure we knew he was doing so. Yours was just... A list.

[chamber]

Mod:

Replace me.

[Kison]

Kison's reaction

- Is the only opinion you have really that it's "silly"? No more details than that? Nothing on the people on the wagon?

Umm, not really. Most of the wagon came on the first page of the game. I don't really have much to say about the first five votes.

Chamber's is the only vote that looks a little sketchy since it was the sixth, a naked vote & came later. Even so, it's pretty uninteresting to me. He acknowledges later it's entirely meta based. He'd gotten on Axel for similar reasons to me. His spar with Old Man is more interesting than the six Eddie votes.

My biggest takeaway from it is what I've already said: Axel, who didn't actually join the wagon but sorta kinda condoned it & threw his vote in with Pine instead. It really did read as "I don't want to be #7 on this thing."

I kinda want to just flashwagon Kison and see what happens when he has to do something other than coast.

I'm ramping up slowly & taking this in managable chunks so I don't burn out. I ain't making this game a painful chore. If ya'll stopped compulsively submitting epic novel-sized posts every time you checked in, it'd certainly help.

But a flash wagon could be very enlightening!