Open 724 - Pick Your Power X/Y [Endgame]

[Ircher]

Ircher do you comprehend what I mean when I say that someone is talking TO someone but not WITH someone? ( ´･ш･)

Yes and no.

Can you ELABORATE what confuses you then? I think understanding what I mean will help you understand my point from earlier Σ(-᷅_-᷄๑)

The problem is primarily one of context; you stated one thing yet what you stated next seem to be opposite of what I was expecting. I don't know if this helps you any more...

[SaskeIsMyYaoiKismesis]

okay SO

Obviously when two people are having a conversation, they are talking TO each other (≧∇≦)/

BUT it is possible to have a conversation without really ENGAGING what the OTHER person is communicating - this is what I am referring to as "talking TO each other." When you TRULY are taking to heart what the other person is saying, that is talking WITH them because you're following the SAME conversational thread and SEEKING to accomplish something deeper. That is talking WITH someone .+:｡(ﾉ･ω･)ﾉﾞ

When Almost50 and I were DISCUSSING the quality of my beefster read, I felt like Almost50-hannin was ignoring the SIGNIFICANT portions of the conversation and HALF-ANSWERING my questions (●’o’●)

THUS I felt he was talking TO me and not WITH me and felt this was scummy since if he TOWNREAD me while I NULLREAD him he should be seeking to help me TOWNREAD him so that we can PROGRESS through the game and accomplish something deeper - the LACK of this I view as scum motivated ╭( ･ㅂ･)و ̑̑ ＂

HOWEVER, with ALL of your fluctuating STRENGTHS of READ you have had on Math-sensei and his scumread of you, it makes SENSE that perhaps your conversations are more of LOCKING PROVERBIAL HORNS with each other or NOT REALLY DEEPLY ENGAGING with each other! While not always ideal, it is PERFECTLY NORMAL for people to interact with their scumreads at a DIFFERENT LEVEL than their townreads o^_^o

Does this aid you?

[Ircher]

Ah, that makes more sense now; thank you.

[Taly]

You can lynch my leg if you want. But I'd prefer you didn't hang me by my neck so that I can keep breathing and speaking.

^LYNCH THIS!

True mutants breathe through their skin.

Can you articulate your reads? I keep hearing a lot of "this is town" and "this is scum" with the posts the past several pages and I'm struggling to filter out the reasons.

I want people to point to me specific posts and elaborate on their cases instead of detailing responses that engage with specific people.

178 is a lot of assumptions without engaging or asking questions. It strikes me as having an accusatory tone.

I believe you missed that with which I was attempting to engage you Σ(-᷅_-᷄๑)

Your comment on 178 was RELATIVELY RELEVANT and is a PERSPICACIOUS POINT - yet, I was interested in what your tendencies towards Iconeum’s posts later on that page were! At the present point, I can see a STRONG town motive to those posts so I wanted to hear what the SCUM perspective of it was in your view so that I can ESTABLISH which divison of my ICONEUM read I should emphasize (ʃ⌣́,⌣́ƪ)

I do agree that Brass feels LACKING however and would like to see more from him in terms of SCUMHUNTING - tonally I like what I see so far but I need more (✿´ ꒳ ` )

Also can you EXPAND on your Ircher townread?

I just didn't feel that the push on Janitor by Iconeum was genuine; 194 and 194 were essentially adding onto a discredit while simplifying Janitor's responses in the game.

I haven't dug much deeper in that, but it's one thing I found through my initial read in the thread. I don't see much of a point in pursuing it right now since Iconeum's VLA and has not even posted anywhere to my knowledge.

My Ircher Townread Is Multi-Faceted Given His Recent Posts-

1)

217 - He stayed true to his opener post and he's provided a lot of content given his reads.

2)

To an extent, I don't see the point in set-up speccing without any flip information yet, we haven't literally nothing but the draft to go on and trying to find scum in simple numbers through an order is both impractical and gives NO other information EVEN if someone is correct. It's luck, essentially. I like that

Ircher

is one of the few people stressing that notion to

Mathdino

.

3)

429 and 520 is an extremely expansive analysis, almost post-by-post, of someone's reads. Unless Ircher is doing his very best to dictate the perception in this thread - which I extremely doubt he's doing, given there's almost no defense for his wagon - tells me that his effort is coming from a sympathetic and individualistic standpoint.

Essentially, I think his reads are very towny, even with the numbers and strong doses of technicality he places into them. I don't find the strong effort here to be with an underlying scum-motivation.

I'm having a hard time grasping some of the wagons and scumreads this game

Saske

; so I'd love to hear your case for

Ircher

-scum, or any of your scumreads.

I feel like one of Ircher and MathDino are probably scum.

What's with the dichotomy here? Are you saying they both can't be scum together or town together? Why?

FWIW i agree that A50 is much more likely scum than not here

but i will always disagree with lynching A50 on D1

if we're both town we'll figure it out (and one of us probably gets NK'd lol)

...So, you're pretty confident in a scumread, but you're not going to push to lynch it? Is this based solely on meta knowledge on

Almost50

?

~~~

1) the worst

, what are your reads at the moment? A quick look through your ISO and I see a lot of responses and some fluffy posts. What do you think of

Ausuka

at the moment, in retrospect to your vote on her 276 - and what about

Almost50

gives you townvibes?

2) Mathdino

, the last thing I ever want in a Mafia game is a nullread on me. I encourage you to ask me questions, that's the best way for me to formulate my thoughts in a cohesive manner.

3)

512 Elabroate here,

Lovebird

.

~~~

I'll reread the thread against tomorrow or Monday, but for now;

UNVOTE:

I'm too... not-opinionated... I'm fixing that shit ASAP.

[the worst]

taly i live on your head, you've seen my role
i'll answer your questions within a few days--unless i forget, in which case please remind me!!

[Mathdino]

- ALL scumhunting is luck. Using calculations based on empirical evidence is no different. I show my work when appropriate.
If someone's draft number makes them 15% more likely to be scum, how is that any different from the tone of someone's post making them 15% more likely to be scum?

- Your Ircher townread is based off of agreeing that you don't like my shit and on the notion that effort is alignment-indicative. Ircher is doing nothing to move the game forward or to push his agenda. His reads list reads to me like he wanted to dump a massive amount of effort while under pressure to get one or two suckers off his back.

- There are certain people that are straight up bad lynches for a variety of reasons. Confidence in a scumread doesn't mean I'm willing to take the gamble of lynching them. Lynching an A50 who I think is scum with, say, >40% confidence (which is about the threshold it takes for me to lynch someone) is high-risk low-reward. Scum A50 is not difficult to lynch and only has as much influence as town gives him.

- I can't think of anything to say or ask to you that would harden a read. Your posting style is easy to hide behind as scum. It's difficult to gauge the sincerity. I need associatives and flips for you. Kind of like A50 actually.

[Ircher]

Mathdino, I would appreciate it if you meta-dived me, or at least glanced at my wiki page.

[Mathdino]

i spent a few months on a meta-dive kick

it hasn't really turned out too well. metadive-reads are >random but don't seem to be as good as my standard reads informed by meta.

why would i do that when 1 or 2 players in this game already know you well enough anyway?

[Mathdino]

wait is this some kind of threat

like "lol the earlier you lynch me the more likely it is town loses"

because if so

:lol::lol:

[Ircher]

No, I simply wanted you to be aware of my game history. The meta dive was just suggested in case you considered actually making comparisons to this!me and past!me yourself. (But in a way, yes, my wiki page is accurate statistics' wise, so maybe it should be something you should consider.)

[SaskeIsMyYaoiKismesis]

3) 429 and 520 is an extremely expansive analysis, almost post-by-post, of someone's reads. Unless Ircher is doing his very best to dictate the perception in this thread - which I extremely doubt he's doing, given there's almost no defense for his wagon - tells me that his effort is coming from a sympathetic and individualistic standpoint.

I can EMPATHIZE with this read, but I think the MORE alignment indicative part (the EXPANSIVENESS of the ANALYSIS) is NOT town indicative - I concur with Math-sensei that effort is NOT alignment indicative. As a result I am hesitant to EXPRESS an IDENTICAL concurring on your description of 217 as "a lot of content given his reads" as you have STATED ( ´•̥ו̥` )

The presence of HUMAN ERROR however prevades, which is why I am taking care to interact with AUSUKA-CHAN about the validity of Ircher's self-meta. PLUS I would like to see how much of this read is NAI based on PERSONALITY. But now I shall WROUGHT a unblemished case for your perusal next ٩(•̤̀ᵕ•̤́๑)૭✧

[SaskeIsMyYaoiKismesis]

I just didn't feel that the push on Janitor by Iconeum was genuine; 194 and 194 were essentially adding onto a discredit while simplifying Janitor's responses in the game.

Also taking a SECOND look into this I do feel this interpretation makes a lot more SENSE than how I INITIALLY INTERPRETED it

ICONEUM when you are back from your V/LA could you possibly provide us with provisional placements of the players in this game? As my null pile THINS OUT and I see the case to SCUMREAD YOU I would like to place you on my own and I believe this is the right place to start - ESPECIALLY considering you are a PRIORITY sort! ٩(๑•̀ㅂ•́)و

[Almost50]

@Taly: 425 was obviously a joke. I TR mutant by tone an effort.

Also, my approach is so simple it doesn't really need much elaboration/exploration. Scum will pick the smallest numbers without repetition. So, 1-2-3 is ideal. However, if they suspected (and they should have) town might also go for those, they'd try to avoid being on duplicate numbers, so they'd probably pick 1-3-5, 1-4-6, 2-3-4 ..etc.

So, I'm going for 1/2 to have at least one scum in them, but will also note both players who picked '2' cannot be scum together (no repetition).

So, it's Icon (picked 1 when no one else did) and Janitor (picked 2, which is also what Math has picked, but I'm TRing Dino).

Hopefully by the time both are lynched we would have results from other slots on other slots. That's it in a nutshell.

[Mathdino]

interestingly, there was one game where scum both picked the same number

the mod forgot to give scum pre-game chat, and 2 scum picked "2"

the mod then didn't inform the players about the lack of pre-game chat, so one scum tried to use that as a reason they couldn't be scum together

i have 0 other evidence of 2 scum ever picking the same number in the draft given communication, and i detest the fact that some people in this game are continuing to argue "WELL SCUM

COULD'VE

DONE IT!"

without specifically discussing WHO would do that

[Taly]

1) the worst

, what are your reads at the moment? A quick look through your ISO and I see a lot of responses and some fluffy posts. What do you think of

Ausuka

at the moment, in retrospect to your vote on her 276 - and what about

Almost50

gives you townvibes?

I'll quote this so it sticks into your memory.

I'd also like to know why you'd want to lynch

mutant

, I still don't fully see the scumreads on him?

- ALL scumhunting is luck. Using calculations based on empirical evidence is no different. I show my work when appropriate.
If someone's draft number makes them 15% more likely to be scum, how is that any different from the tone of someone's post making them 15% more likely to be scum?

How do you deduce percentages of someone being scum FROM RANDOMIZED NUMBERS?

You're completely ignoring any information that someone can use to detect someone as scum or town that DOESN'T come from mathematical probabilities or subsets from numbers. Simplying scumhunting as complete luck is a DIRECT simplification of a subjective game. Right now, you're coming to me based off semantics and not off the idea of trying to UNDERSTAND something in a subjective realm where we can communicate our ideas.

This mentality does little to nothing in helping someone see your point of view in this game.

- Your Ircher townread is based off of agreeing that you don't like my shit

Stopping you right here, because you're wrong.

I never said that the setup spec was inherently wrong to do; I stated that there's no practical reason for discussing it off NO defined information.

Me Saying-

"I don't like what

Mathdino's

doing here"

and

"I don't see the point of what

Mathdino's

doing at the moment, and I agree with this other person's approach"

ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

Reread my post.

and on the notion that effort is alignment-indicative.

And instead of trying to UNDERSTAND my townread, you're minimizing MY OPINION.

- Did I say I townread Ircher because of effort?

Yeah, to a degree.

- Did I say that that was the SOLE reason I townread him because of effort?

Fucking no. I saw no scum-motivation from the depth within his reads and he wasn't using his developed reads as a source to create WIFOM or unnecessarily scumread or townread someone WITHOUT REASON.

Ircher is doing nothing to move the game forward or to push his agenda.

I disagree, he's provides tons of content to look at later in the game when flips have been discovered.

But I do agree in the fact that he doesn't have an agenda... because what the fuck agenda would town need in this game other than townhunt and scumhunt?

His reads list reads to me like he wanted to dump a massive amount of effort while under pressure to get one or two suckers off his back.

This sounds extremely overconfident and highly tunnel-minded.

You're making the assumption that someone ENGAGING with the people suspecting them are coming from a scum mentality?

What the hell are you hoping to figure out by pushing

Ircher

with this mentality?

Another thing is, I REPLIED with a better elaboration of my Ircher townread in the first place. If you disagreed with me, you could ask me questions on my explanations or put up a case LIKE I WAS PRODDING PEOPLE TO DO.

- There are certain people that are straight up bad lynches for a variety of reasons. Confidence in a scumread doesn't mean I'm willing to take the gamble of lynching them. Lynching an A50 who I think is scum with, say, >40% confidence (which is about the threshold it takes for me to lynch someone) is high-risk low-reward. Scum A50 is not difficult to lynch and only has as much influence as town gives him.

This still doesn't give any game evidence or intrinsic reasoning behind why you wouldn't pursue a confident scumread.

Are you genuinely looking at other people to find more general confidence in your reads, or are you unsure of Almost50? I don't understand your thought process here.

- I can't think of anything to say or ask to you that would harden a read. Your posting style is easy to hide behind as scum. It's difficult to gauge the sincerity. I need associatives and flips for you. Kind of like A50 actually.

If you can't figure out anything to say or ask me, then ISO me until you do. It's really not that difficult from my perspective.

Or just keep engaging with me like this and hopefully I don't rip my hair out. I elaborated on my townread, and I'm not fond with the way you tried deconstruct one of the few reasoned townreads on

Ircher

.

And I'm taking this a step further and saying that I think

Ircher

could be town because there's literally NOBODY from what I've been reading the past few pages - correct me if I'm wrong - that's actually trying to assess the points of any case against him outside of agreeing or taking a neutral stance.

And I'm guessing you're not certain of your

Almost50

read?

...

[Mathdino]

god see i don't want to read this post now

walls don't make you easier to read, they make you harder

that said you've given me a potential tell to metadive so i'll get back to you on that

[Mathdino]

[the worst]

lmao

[Taly]

I completely reciprocate this feeling back to you and I feel like I'm being talked down to, seriously.

And I UNDERSTAND that wallposts ARE more difficult to read, but I've got a lot of thoughts and I'm not afraid to share them.

[SaskeIsMyYaoiKismesis]

that said you've given me a potential tell to metadive so i'll get back to you on that

Eh? ∑(ﾟﾛﾟ〃)

[SaskeIsMyYaoiKismesis]

My FIRST IMPRESSION from that outburst is town for what VALUE that THOUGHT possesses

[Taly]

Ugh, I'm sorry if it seemed like I got truly worked up there and bolted at you

Mathdino

, but I'm genuinely frustrated with your approach here, and I'm trying to discern if this is AI or just playstyle conflict because I'm struggling to understand your perspective and I don't think you were trying to see mine.

[Mathdino]

- ALL scumhunting is luck. Using calculations based on empirical evidence is no different. I show my work when appropriate.
If someone's draft number makes them 15% more likely to be scum, how is that any different from the tone of someone's post making them 15% more likely to be scum?

How do you deduce percentages of someone being scum FROM RANDOMIZED NUMBERS?

You're completely ignoring any information that someone can use to detect someone as scum or town that DOESN'T come from mathematical probabilities or subsets from numbers. Simplying scumhunting as complete luck is a DIRECT simplification of a subjective game. Right now, you're coming to me based off semantics and not off the idea of trying to UNDERSTAND something in a subjective realm where we can communicate our ideas.

This mentality does little to nothing in helping someone see your point of view in this game.

Are the draft numbers randomized: Yes or No?

Quote the posts that indicate that I'm ignoring scumhunting methods/reasons other than probabilities. Am I doing any non-numbers-based scumhunting: Yes or No?

Can you ever be 100% sure of someone being scum without mechanics: Yes or No?

And if the answer to the last one is "No", then it follows that everyone has a percentage chance of being scum.

Me Saying-

"I don't like what

Mathdino's

doing here"

and

"I don't see the point of what

Mathdino's

doing at the moment, and I agree with this other person's approach"

ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS.

The other person's approach is literally saying "I don't like what Mathdino's doing". Have you even been reading Ircher's posts outside of his general tone of pushing back against me?

- Did I say that that was the SOLE reason I townread him because of effort?

Fucking no. I saw no scum-motivation from the depth within his reads and he wasn't using his developed reads as a source to create WIFOM or unnecessarily scumread or townread someone WITHOUT REASON.

Scum motivation: Looking like town without having to take responsibility for actions this game because no one's going to read word he writes and he isn't attempting to influence the gamestate.

But I do agree in the fact that he doesn't have an agenda... because what the fuck agenda would town need in this game other than townhunt and scumhunt?

Does it look like he's pushing his reads or just stating them?

You don't fucking spoiler your reads list if you want it to affect the game.

His reads list reads to me like he wanted to dump a massive amount of effort while under pressure to get one or two suckers off his back.

You're making the assumption that someone ENGAGING with the people suspecting them are coming from a scum mentality?

What the hell are you hoping to figure out by pushing

Ircher

with this mentality?

You seriously think it looks like his reads lists are attempts to engage with the people who've been suspecting him? THE WHOLE POINT of this is that he hasn't been engaging with people, he's just commenting on things and judging them. His reads are not only useless (by virtue of basically everyone being at null or neutral, easy for scum to hide associatives behind), they're worse than if he picked 3 random people as his scumreads.

This still doesn't give any game evidence or intrinsic reasoning behind why you wouldn't pursue a confident scumread.

Are you genuinely looking at other people to find more general confidence in your reads, or are you unsure of Almost50? I don't understand your thought process here.

Don't really care. What should matter to you is whether this is alignment indicative for me. I'm not interested in spending walls whacking each other over the head with theory of townplay. This isn't a newbie game, and you're not a newbie. I don't lynch A50 D1, regardless of my read on him.

If you can't figure out anything to say or ask me, then ISO me until you do. It's really not that difficult from my perspective.

Or just keep engaging with me like this and hopefully I don't rip my hair out. I elaborated on my townread, and I'm not fond with the way you tried deconstruct one of the few reasoned townreads on

Ircher

.

"It should be easy for you to read me from my perspective"
"I'm townreading someone for disagreeing with you and I'm not fond of you disagreeing with me"

I don't HAVE to come up with a read on you out of thin air. Your ISOs in games are painful to get through.

[Mathdino]

Ugh, I'm sorry if it seemed like I got truly worked up there and bolted at you

Mathdino

, but I'm genuinely frustrated with your approach here, and I'm trying to discern if this is AI or just playstyle conflict because I'm struggling to understand your perspective and I don't think you were trying to see mine.

If you need to know whether it's playstyle conflict, then go meta me. We've literally played before. I was scum.

Are you more invested in reading me, or telling me off?

I've got a lot of thoughts and I'm not afraid to share them.

this isn't an empowerment disney radio pop song man

share the things that are pro-town to share
one last yes/no question

Do you think us wall v walling is pro-town? Yes or No.

[Mathdino]

How do you deduce percentages of someone being scum FROM RANDOMIZED NUMBERS?

i just wanna quote/pagebottom this for emphasis on hilarity:

taly seems to think that the draft numbers are randomized