Newbie 1867 - Game Over

[nancy]

Eh, maybe you're just mafia. I guess I need to figure out how and when you flipped into this stupid mode you're in and whether that makes sense coming from town.

[Ircher]

*sigh*

Not explaining myself is by no means a toxic attitude.

[Scioness Sajj]

If you're not going to play the game, Ircher, then replace out.

You need not concern yourself with bothering Huntress, either, since I know of someone who is interested in subbing in and you would be doing the game a service by removing your toxic attitude.

you'd also be doing the game a service if you'd stop trying to force people out of the game, thanks

------

i'll get back to people in some time, need to get rid of a headache first

[teacher]

Nancy I’ll respond re. Lucan tonight. Work reared its head. The tl/dr is that I liked the early content but could see why people were casing it. The silence after a wagon seems more scummy than towny, but I am not at all hard in my read and looking for more info action.

[Huntress]

Vote Count 1.14

teacher (3) - Nachomamma8, TheRampage, Ircher
vulcan logician (2) - Draynth, nancy
Ircher (2) - teacher, vulcan logician
nancy (2) - northsidegal, Scioness Sajj

Not voting (0) -


With nine players alive, it takes five votes to lynch.

New deadline for Day One is Monday, 21st May, 11pm BST

, (in (expired on 2018-05-21 23:00:00)).

vulcan logician has been prodded.

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: northsidegal

Busy at work and planning to spend a good chunk of time tomorrow with my wonderful girlfriend. Hoping I can find the time to post significantly Sunday, but it's possible that the time will come early Monday.

[Scioness Sajj]

Why do you expect me to do something that would change how you see my slot before I have even read the game or formed reads? Why weren't you voting harambey before? I don't think it makes sense that you would judge a replacement shortly after they come in before they have a chance to do anything and say that they aren't good enough if you were genuinely interested in figuring out their alignment. I've made posts even if they haven't been anything substantial yet, why haven't you said anything about them or talked to me at all? Why haven't you bothered talking to Nachomamma about his read on me, since he strongly believes that I am town?

Why are you voting as though only the current wagons are viable lynches? Are you only scumreading the people who are being wagoned right now? If not, why do you not care that no one else is scumreading them except you and why are you content to just shruglynch a replacement because they aren't fast enough at providing content for your liking? If you are town and you really just can't be bothered putting in any effort, why did you replace in? I don't really understand your mindset here at all.

Maybe knowing what your reads are would help me understand but I don't think so.

Since you doubt that you'll understand what and why I'm doing why did you bother drowning me in all those questions to which answers you would know if you read the game? Actually, you have probably read most of my posts so I understand this even less.

Why do you expect me to do something that would change how you see my slot before I have even read the game or formed reads?

by the end of yesterday we had about the same post count. i have expected you'd focus on catching up and providing content not having your presence known. i think that if i'm wrong on your slot your input would make me doubt my read. why do you expect me to wait until you read the game in this gamestate if i'm already sring your slot?

Why weren't you voting harambey before?

I have reppped in the same day you did. i was talking with harambey while catching up he repped out before i was done. i didn't vote you immediately because i wanted to give you some free space.

I don't think it makes sense that you would judge a replacement shortly after they come in before they have a chance to do anything and say that they aren't good enough if you were genuinely interested in figuring out their alignment.

you know i'm scumreading your slot so i don't know why you are pushing this angle. i think your slot is scum, your contribution to the game has been null so far (with a meh policy push).
it's been two days and about 30 posts for both of us. three people has already stated some reads on my slot that was earlier null for them. i had a chance to do something and so had you.
i'm sring your slot so it's not really about being interested in figuring out your alignment but giving you a chance to redeem your slot. i can't really talk to you if you haven't caught up.

I've made posts even if they haven't been anything substantial yet, why haven't you said anything about them or talked to me at all?

i have been busy talking with other people that has engaged me, you have also engaged me but you left it be. i can't really ask you about game related content becuase you haven't read the game, the majority of your posts has been written to Nachomamma, didn't see anything that i'd want to engage with. he is in the middle of my readlist and can wait till d2.

Why haven't you bothered talking to Nachomamma about his read on me, since he strongly believes that I am town?

i don't think it is my job to make people convince me that i'm wrong.
i have been trying to talk to him about my townread that he is scumreading and other things but he left me hanging. i'm also not really fond of his reads, you saw my readlist.
i have been bothering with preventing mislynches on people that i townread, that's my priority for this phase tbf.

Why are you voting as though only the current wagons are viable lynches?

i'm voting where my strongest sr is mand and you know it.

Are you only scumreading the people who are being wagoned right now? If not, why do you not care that no one else is scumreading them except you and why are you content to just shruglynch a replacement because they aren't fast enough at providing content for your liking?

you should know the answer to the first question.
i'm not the only person sring your slot nor the only person voting you now.
i want to lynch my strongest scumread, not a replacement that has yet to maybe deliver i think that should be clear to you but i guess this angle favors you.

If you are town and you really just can't be bothered putting in any effort, why did you replace in?

do you really think i didn't put in any effort?

[Scioness Sajj]

Vote: northsidegal

Busy at work and planning to spend a good chunk of time tomorrow with my wonderful girlfriend. Hoping I can find the time to post significantly Sunday, but it's possible that the time will come early Monday.

would really appreciate if you could write even a line of reasoning for this vote since you never really talked about her.

from what i saw in your iso you liked alciel and disagree with NSG's metareading.

[nancy]

*sigh*

Not explaining myself is by no means a toxic attitude.

You're not just not explaining yourself. You're saying that there's no point in town doing anything to try to explain things to each other, there's no point trying to understand each other, there's no point because if we try we'll just fail and it will all go wrong and everything is horrible. It's a completely useless and unhelpful approach to the game. You're encouraging bitterness and apathy and that is toxic. Your approach to the game on the most basic and fundamental level is horribly, horribly warped if you are town.

[Nachomamma8]

I haven't been intentionally blowing you off. I haven't had the mental capacity for deep diving in mafia lately, and I don't feel we can have the conversation you're looking for until I take a little more time to build and discuss thoughts.

However, if you don't see anything in my posts that you want to engage with or comment on, then you're either not reading my posts or not giving them the chance you should - I haven't been high volume, but I haven't posted so little to where you should be unable to talk to me.

[Nachomamma8]

Last post @Scioness

[Ircher]

@Ircher, you said you were planning to be useful. Posting random numbers isnt that useful to me. It just invites people to get confirmation biased into their own cases, rather than deciding whether yours is sound. Can you actually explain a case on me (or someone else, since it looks from readslists that neither one of us is likely to go through, and Im interested in evaluating peoples' compromise pools?)

No, I'm not going to go into an entire case.

If you want explanations for SPECIFIC posts (and that doesn't mean ask about every single one), I'll oblige; otherwise, I'm not elaborating.

Have any of you done this? I don't think so.

[Scioness Sajj]

@Ircher, you said you were planning to be useful. Posting random numbers isnt that useful to me. It just invites people to get confirmation biased into their own cases, rather than deciding whether yours is sound. Can you actually explain a case on me (or someone else, since it looks from readslists that neither one of us is likely to go through, and Im interested in evaluating peoples' compromise pools?)

No, I'm not going to go into an entire case.

If you want explanations for SPECIFIC posts (and that doesn't mean ask about every single one), I'll oblige; otherwise, I'm not elaborating.

Have any of you done this? I don't think so.

i'm ALMOST doing it right now, just have to get my notes to compare.

[Scioness Sajj]

I haven't been intentionally blowing you off. I haven't had the mental capacity for deep diving in mafia lately, and I don't feel we can have the conversation you're looking for until I take a little more time to build and discuss thoughts.

i'm aware you are busy and wasn't trying to accuse you of anything. if i thought you are intentionally dodging i'd loud about it.

However, if you don't see anything in my posts that you want to engage with or comment on, then you're either not reading my posts or not giving them the chance you should - I haven't been high volume, but I haven't posted so little to where you should be unable to talk to me.

you misunderstood or i've wrote it badly; it was about nancy's posts to you.

you might have missed this, since you are only mentioning meta discussion:

What's actually your read on NSG? I don't remember you mentioning her beside that you disagree with the meta thing.

If not {NSG, teacher} then one of {me, TheRampage}, which one and why?

[nancy]

Since you doubt that you'll understand what and why I'm doing why did you bother drowning me in all those questions to which answers you would know if you read the game? Actually, you have probably read most of my posts so I understand this even less.

Oh, you've misunderstood my comment. I said that I didn't think knowing your reads would change my confusion because as I was thinking about what I didn't understand about you, I thought there was a possibility that things like voting me but not voting harambey, or only voting on the current wagons, would make sense if I knew what your reads were. But my confusion is more about your approach / mindset when doing those things and less about what your exact reads are, I think.

I didn't say I didn't think I would be able to understand you, I said "maybe knowing what your reads are would help me". Most of my questions are about your process / mindset, not about your reads specifically. I haven't read any of your posts except the ones I've responded to or seen in Nacho's ISO, sorry. I'm getting there! I'm taking today off so hopefully I can get caught up a bunch.

by the end of yesterday we had about the same post count. i have expected you'd focus on catching up and providing content not having your presence known. i think that if i'm wrong on your slot your input would make me doubt my read. why do you expect me to wait until you read the game in this gamestate if i'm already sring your slot?

Oh I didn't realize I had more posts than you already. I think where you've gone wrong is probably that expectation about what I'll do. It's an understandable thing to expect I guess but that's not really me as a player? When I replace into games as town I love to start immediately commenting on whatever is going on at the time. Interacting with people helps me to understand them better and the game better and it's boring to just read past pages and not doing anything in the present.

I don't expect you to wait, I'm just wondering why you didn't and try to understand you better by asking about it. If I see something I don't understand then I ask about it, is fairly normal and staying silent doesn't help me. You didn't give reasons and it seemed strange that you voted me then after the posts that I had been making so I was confused and I wanted to talk to you about to figure out what was going on.

[

I have reppped in the same day you did. i was talking with harambey while catching up he repped out before i was done. i didn't vote you immediately because i wanted to give you some free space.

Oh ok, cool. Thanks for the space!

you know i'm scumreading your slot so i don't know why you are pushing this angle. i think your slot is scum, your contribution to the game has been null so far (with a meh policy push).
it's been two days and about 30 posts for both of us. three people has already stated some reads on my slot that was earlier null for them. i had a chance to do something and so had you.
i'm sring your slot so it's not really about being interested in figuring out your alignment but giving you a chance to redeem your slot. i can't really talk to you if you haven't caught up.

I don't know what you mean by pushing this angle. I agree that my content so far has been mostly null, and I guess you are referring to where I said that I would policy lynch Ircher but I don't think I would call that a push lol. Anyway I'm less confused about this now that I know you just replaced in as well but I think if you're town you should be trying to figure out the alignment of your scumreads because if you're not doing that then you're opening yourself to the risk of confirmation bias and that basically never ends well. Anyway your playstyle is your playstyle.

i don't think it is my job to make people convince me that i'm wrong.
i have been trying to talk to him about my townread that he is scumreading and other things but he left me hanging. i'm also not really fond of his reads, you saw my readlist.
i have been bothering with preventing mislynches on people that i townread, that's my priority for this phase tbf.

I think we have a very different process. I always try to talk to people about what they think about my reads because I think the more thoughts from different people that I have about everything that I think, the less chance there is that something will be missed or misread or anything like that. It's not so much about making people convince me that I'm wrong as figuring how their understanding of the game relates to my understanding of the game and what that means about their alignment and our reads.

I like that you're focusing on your townreads! We definitely have that in common.

i'm voting where my strongest sr is mand and you know it.

I probably just need to read up on where you're at with things but I'm confused? You just earlier that you're voting me because you didn't like the other wagons and I haven't impressed you, which sounds like you don't have a strong read on me and are mostly just picking the lynch out of the available options that you have the least resistance to?

you should know the answer to the first question.
i'm not the only person sring your slot nor the only person voting you now.
i want to lynch my strongest scumread, not a replacement that has yet to maybe deliver i think that should be clear to you but i guess this angle favors you.

Um. I don't think assuming that I am mafia and that I am lying about everything is very helpful and if you're town then you might want to try to change your approach a bit and give the benefit of the doubt to people?

do you really think i didn't put in any effort?

I mean, you were just saying eh and voting and your other posts seemed kind of "bluh" so that was kind of what I thought yeah. Sorry if that was uncharitable of me.

[Scioness Sajj]

*sigh*

Not explaining myself is by no means a toxic attitude.

You're not just not explaining yourself. You're saying that there's no point in town doing anything to try to explain things to each other, there's no point trying to understand each other, there's no point because if we try we'll just fail and it will all go wrong and everything is horrible. It's a completely useless and unhelpful approach to the game. You're encouraging bitterness and apathy and that is toxic. Your approach to the game on the most basic and fundamental level is horribly, horribly warped if you are town.

why are you focused only on ircher's negative attitude and not vulcan's? is it becuase ircher is more 'in your face' while vulcan is lurking?

[nancy]

A Draynth wagon would be worthwhile imo. Not a lot of content and what I consider a somewhat suspicious leap onto my wagon. (Granted, the reasoning is somewhat valid, just not necessarily “fair”.
VOTE: Draynth

Why is fair in scare quotes?

Another fact is we kinda have already pressured vulcan, and again, Draynth is a bad pick for that. But you are right that on a second inspection, Draynth and vulcan have done the same.

I don't understand the "Draynth is a bad pick for that" part. Are you saying that Draynth is a bad slot to pressure with a wagon or something else?

[nancy]

why are you focused only on ircher's negative attitude and not vulcan's? is it becuase ircher is more 'in your face' while vulcan is lurking?

I haven't really seen vulcan's negative attitude yet. Ircher is around and posting so that's probably why yeah.

[Ircher]

A Draynth wagon would be worthwhile imo. Not a lot of content and what I consider a somewhat suspicious leap onto my wagon. (Granted, the reasoning is somewhat valid, just not necessarily “fair”.
VOTE: Draynth

Why is fair in scare quotes?

Another fact is we kinda have already pressured vulcan, and again, Draynth is a bad pick for that. But you are right that on a second inspection, Draynth and vulcan have done the same.

I don't understand the "Draynth is a bad pick for that" part. Are you saying that Draynth is a bad slot to pressure with a wagon or something else?

1) To draw emphasis.
2) You're reading in too much; I erroneously omitted the "not" between the "is" and the "a". Does that make more sense?

Also, why are you bringing up things from very early on? As in, it feels you are being nitpickey here.
Pedit: Can you desist in this, please and thank you?

[nancy]

How can you say I'm reading into it too much when I didn't say anything about how I'm reading it there.

And yes if you forgot a word that makes sense. I brought it up because I wanted help understanding it.

Desist in what?

[nancy]

That's where I'm caught up to, Ircher, if that wasn't clear. Well, past that now, but when I made that post it was.

[Scioness Sajj]

I'm wrapping things up for today so it's time for obligatory beetlejuice post.

hey, NSG

come and play the game with me please

thanks

Nancy - i will replay to you tomorrow.
Ircher - i have 6 posts i want to talk about but it's after 3am already so i will post three and expect more tomorrow.

where are draynth and vulcan and therampage?

[nancy]

A Draynth wagon would be worthwhile imo. Not a lot of content and what I consider a somewhat suspicious leap onto my wagon. (Granted, the reasoning is somewhat valid, just not necessarily “fair”.
VOTE: Draynth

Why did you choose to vote Draynth over vulcan logician?

Primarily because Haram suggested we move attention to someone who wasn't posting that much. Vulcan has posted a good amount of content wehreas Draynth has not.[/quote]

Another fact is we kinda have already pressured vulcan, and again, Draynth is a bad pick for that. But you are right that on a second inspection, Draynth and vulcan have done the same.

VOTE: Vulcan
Actually, I really prefer this currently (in light of what I said earlier). Partially because the game state seems to have gotten a standstill plus my vote on Draynth wasn't really accomplishing anything.

This isn't very strong reasoning but I think Ircher is towny for this sequence. The way that he approaches Draynth's vote on him doesn't feel slimy or played up and I think it might if he were mafia. I think the mindset behind the third quote makes more sense coming from town because of the way he layers on argumentation that wasn't part of the immediate discussion but is relevant to the gamestate. I don't think the observation about having pressured vulcan is very salient but it feels like something that would make sense to town and it's a really weird line of reasoning for mafia to take in voting Draynth.

I also think if he were mafia he maybe wouldn't just flop back onto vulcan after that exchange, he didn't get anything out of that push and I think he would want to if he were scum.

[Scioness Sajj]

Ircher, I'm here! Alright, so I have decided to give me thoughts about the posts that stood up to both of us and you can agree/disagree give your own? I guess that's the best approach to this.

Spoiler: post 35, Harambey180

Vote: Harambey180

I think the fact that he hasn't posted yet is strange. He's been active onsite for a while after the L-1 wagon formed, and I think that it's likelier that he is scum who is avoiding posting for a little while in the hopes that what's mostly just a baseless wagon will die out than town who saw the wagon form and had nothing to say/could find nothing to address.

Other fairly equivalent votes I could see myself making are Alciel and creppy. I don't believe that either have them have done more than the bare minimum to play the game, which is sometimes a sign of scum who is uncomfortable.

The wagon was mostly formed thanks to RVS so I didn't have much to defend against.
Besides, wagons this early on hardly ever get said person lynched.

Why would I try to 'defend' myself against a wagon this early on? By staying silent I also won't give scum more information / opportunities to throw more shade in me. And the more I talk, the more I'm putting myself in a losing position based on the past. Because of how I verbalize things, I guess.

What bothers me about this posts is the use of 'defend' and how much Harambey shrug his lack of response off with pro-town motivation.
Nachomamma's post resolves around lack of reaction but Harambey answer is about defending himself. I understand '

The wagon was mostly formed thanks to RVS so I didn't have much to defend against. Besides, wagons this early on hardly ever get said person lynched.

' as him saying that he couldn't defend himself because there weren't any arguments against him and the wagon wasn't serious anyway. My conclusion is that he was concerned with overreacting and being lynched because of that and he sort of admits to it with the past experience part. That's okay, it's a reaction based on his experience.
But he put an emphasis on the thing being just an RVS wagon, which pings me because i believe it comes from his need to actually defend himself. Defense by trying to appear that he doesn't care.
The argument about staying silent so he won't give scum more info is pretty bad. Town needs to talk to get anything done and experience scum will always find something they can exploit. You can avoid this, scum will find a way to push if they want. I don't really understand why he had those thoughts when he is also trying to shrug the rvs as not important?

Plus, I agree that ofrhz jumped the gun here and should have waited longer to see how/if Harambey actually reacts to naked L-1. We don't know if Harambey saw the l-1 vote when it was posted or just got to the thread after he was at l-2. Still, I think it warranted a reaction as either alignment and was an opportunity to start a discussion.

Spoiler: post 45, Harambey180

"He didn't state a reason, so I voted for him" - why do you have a policy of voting people who don't state reasons?
"Didn't state mine since no one really asked him why for his vote" - I don't understand what other people's reactions to him has to do with how you approach him here; it seems a bit backwards to me. Like, I could see if you were voting for someone and didn't feel like stating reasons because they've already been said but I don't understanding voting someone and NOT giving reasons because no one else seemed to see or care about the same thing you did. Help me out?

His vote didn't have a reason compared to others that at least posted something though nothing concrete, it's my first game and I'm still testing the waters, I'm also waiting if someone would question my lack of reasoning since I don't know if not giving reasoning is that common or not.

Giving (good) reasoning will often make others trust you more than when you don't give any reasoning at all.
My vote was a random vote as we were in RVS, which stands for Random Voting Stage. In my opinion, random votes don't necessarily need reasoning. I mean, it's random, what would a reasoning be for a random vote?
Most people say something else like 'Hello everyone!' or a 'joke reasoning' as to why their random voted player should get more votes. Eventually there will be one player that has the most votes at some point. That person will then usually speak up so that the players have something to discuss about and over time, people will form reads. Then players will argue about each others' reads and posts and get someone lynched. This all started with the random voting stage.

I was that 'player' this time that got the most votes. So I had to speak to persuade people I'm a Townie (which, in fact, I am) and vote elsewhere.

At this point, most players will start to discuss my recent posts, and probably the ones of Nachomamma and I guess yours too.

I don't know how familiar you are with mafia games so I approached you here as if you're pretty new to the game. I hope this is okay as how it is.

I don't understand why you have got town vibes from this post. It's mostly game mechanics explaining post so that's nai to me. The only thing that stands out to me is the bolded part and I'm particularly fond of, the part in brackets, but not really scum read on its own.

Spoiler: post 210, Harambey180

Ircher's post 202 is pretty much a compilation of '28 things that you guys could have done better'. I like the effort you put into making such a long post consisting of 28 things you think about, but it's not quite my style.

Also, because it's a long post, it is probably a good idea to bold some parts like questions. I read about half of it because I don't want to spend too much time on this game and I have other things to do as well. If you asked me questions, then I missed them and please repeat them for me.

Your readslist is still pretty good though. It's not the type of readslist that I'm used to see but I can see you really thought well about your reads. I'm still not really fond about, how to say this, what you want with your posts. I can't really think of a way to say this that you will understand what I'm trying to say, but whatever.

Finally, when I saw that 'town leader' thing you said about me in your read on me, I remembered an idea I had earlier. I thought it would be a good idea if we had someone as a 'team leader' that coordinates everything that happens. Probably two people, because there's a chance that if we assigned this 'task' to one person, that person could be scum. If you picked two people that seem to absolutely disagree with eachother then the odds of both being scum is about 0 percent, so then you'd have at least one Townie in the team leader group. I don't know what you guys think...??

Should we need one or two people as team leader(s) to coordinate everything that happens in this game?

Things like: making sure that one discussion doesn't go out of hand, let people take turns, make sure that two topics aren't discussed at the same time (because that's less efficient imo). That's what I'm thinking of rn.

As we both were getting scum vibes from this post and I'm tired tell me first for what you are scumreading this one and I will elaborate tomorrow.

[Scioness Sajj]

My point in 'Plus...' paragraph is that generally Harambey has been displaying surface level pro-town attitude but was to concern with his safety there to see an opportunity to actually do something pro-town.