Mini Theme 2007: Police Academy 1 - Game Over

[Ankamius]

No I didn't throw a fit and refused to vote Pun

It hit me that Pun doesn't make sense as scum

[Ankamius]

damn Ace

[Ankamius]

Titus

You had a lot of time to sway us to your point of view, even before today

[Ankamius]

Ank is most likely town using Punreader VCA here

No reason to drive a bus on Almost50 in that gamestate

So then continuing that line of thought then if Titus is town the jjh/Gork slot is the one off the wagon and therefore is pun.

You're like 2/3 to the game solve that Pun/Jingle/myself hit

[Ankamius]

The VCA says my scumpool. Common sense says my scumpool. Yet Mark has Ank doing three cartwheels to suggest Gork.

Idk if I should be insulted by this or not

[Ankamius]

And yes, town is dysfunctional

That's what I've been trying to fix all day

[Ankamius]

I'm just going to add to the sentiment that I think like 3 people have stated already

OTM is the only one that thinks you're scum
You're the only one that thinks OTM is scum

I think we've reached the point where you two just need to accept that you can't read each other,

which OTM is already starting to realize.

And the moment he did, guess what he's trending towards? The same scumpool that everyone else is.

[Ankamius]

Ank is most likely town using Punreader VCA here

No reason to drive a bus on Almost50 in that gamestate

So then continuing that line of thought then if Titus is town the jjh/Gork slot is the one off the wagon and therefore is pun.

Also take a look at how much care Almost50 has for saying Titus is town. It’s almost like it’s preprogrammed and he stays away from the Titus wagon and on Nos.

Someone who (Nos I love you as a person) posts very little and isn’t influential. How did Nos get to that point over Titus?

If I use Punreader VCA style it says Titus/jjh which seems really odd to me in my gut.

Like

Punreader thinks it's eddie/jjh
I think it's eddie/jjh
Jingle thinks it's eddie/jjh
OTM IS LITERALLY 1-2 STEPS AWAY FROM THIS

WE CAN'T ALL BE SCUM

[Ankamius]

I'm also going to point out that all three of us used very different methods of getting there, and OTM is using yet a different fourth to at least get close to it.

[Ankamius]

You realize that if jjh flips town, we will all have to reassess anyways, right?

[Ankamius]

In what setup?

And what happens if jjh flips

scum

?

[Ankamius]

I'd rather decide with my townreads, thanks.

And if your townreads are leading you astray?

You say you are confident it is Eddie and Pun.

I am telling you put your money where your mouth is.

If it’s a town flip we cop Titus lynch Jingle.

If it isn’t a townflip we go with majority plan.

It’s the best of both worlds.

Considering the main difference between my townreads and myself is the Pun-scumread (and I'm willing to submit to copping Pun if I have to, I just think lynching them is objectively bad for the game), I don't think that's very likely unless literally all of us is off-base.

But in that case, it'll be obvious before too long, so.

We have time to sort all this out.

Lol

You are making the type of cases I do when I'm caught scum, so

And I don't have a "caught scum" play. Mini normal 1950 (?) hosted by Mastina. I was guiltied d2, fought for 30 pages and it ended in a scum win with all the associations I forged. One of those above games I linked I was guiltied d2, and it was not arguable, so I just bascially resigned. But I didn't play like "caught scum", I resigned because I'm good enough to know when to throw in my hand and not waste time or energy. I don't care how you play as scum, I have a damn high scum winrate and it isn't from "making the type of cases you do when you're caught scum".

I'll stop typing in bold to you when you actually treat me like a human being and engage with me.

You have a way out in the form of a Punreader-lynch. Then you kill me tonight and the eddie/jjh scumteam theory holds a lot less water in the collective minds because it's both untested and less likely to be pushed because both the slots pushing it are dead. This has changed since then with Jingle also syncing with us, but this mindset and approach is consistent with how you've played the day out regarding both your tunnel on Pun and how you've went about addressing the cases on you.

THAT'S

what I'm referring to. In this type of situation, I'd do whatever I damn well can do in order to weaken the foundation of the scumreads on me even without a foundation for the cases being wrong. It's probably the simplest way of catching scum; scum will do what they

have

to do to win.

And in order for an eddie/jjh team to win,

Punreader must be lynched today.

With an eddie scumflip or a jjh scumflip, the other loses significant amounts of influence, town still has two mislynches, and suddenly the townblock becomes even stronger. That's even without OTM being proven wrong about his reads, which would remove another avenue of play you can rely on. The game would effectively be over because lynching the other becomes a non-issue. Even without my townread on Punreader, I would still be firmly against lynching them for

exactly

this reason. I'm confident in my ability to gamesolve in situations where I can read how the game flows, and I firmly believe that you two have good odds of flipping scum when layered against this.

So no, my statement was just a simplification. I read through your entire rebuttal to Jingle's case, and what I'm seeing is poking at the vagueness of it and outright misconstruing others. I don't think Jingle's case is especially convincing personally, but your response to it is just scum-indicative and survivalistic.

I've gone into it multiple times why I think Punreader being lynched is bad.

[Ankamius]

That's why when you pissed on my solution, I dug my heels in. As conftown, I can try to stop the trainwreck.

solution = compromise

...You didn't pop in and try to push your compromise until we had literally already reached one.

[Ankamius]

Like, Titus I would understand your viewpoint more if you had a presence in the thread, but you haven't.

I've gone into my reads and why I think the way I do at least half a dozen times. I literally just now quoted ONE of them.

You've barely had a presence in the thread up until 2 days ago; that's literally the reason I was actually hesitant on lynching you yesterday, because I don't understand how scum-Titus would have that little of an impact in the game while still being active enough to be posting consistently.

And yet I had to fight my ass off to get the compromise I did get despite not being what I would find most optimal from lynch + cop actions today and tonight, so I'm not exactly in the best mindset to be accommodating

yet another

diametrically opposed viewpoint when it only started becoming an issue just now.

[Ankamius]

That's why when you pissed on my solution, I dug my heels in. As conftown, I can try to stop the trainwreck.

solution = compromise

...You didn't pop in and try to push your compromise until we had literally already reached one.

This nonsense again. We had a pun lynch. We had everything planned. Mark comes in. Spams Jingle Titus, you accomodate him even though we have matmatical near proof of him being anti-town.

Let's stop rehashing the timeline. You aren't convincing me Mark didn't just go along with wrecking the townblock bc that's what he did and does everyday.

Just give me some help on actually sorting him when jjh flips town. If you can't do that, I have zero hope of you ever lynching scum because you'll dismiss whatever I say bc spam or excuse of the moment.

Where the hell were you when we were hashing this out? I literally forged that compromise because nothing was happening for multiple days at a time and it was the best way I could see to both get the lynch I wanted and get town to be more synced up in the future.

Nobody gave a shit, so I took the lead and MADE people give a shit.

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: jjh
VOTE: punreader

I'm done, let's get the only town cohesion out of here so we can lose. This town is too dysfunctional by this point and I'm not going to bother trying to get everyone to sync up anymore.

btw I'm sorry about this outburst; it was caused by out of game stuff.

[Ankamius]

I was going to quote where I said scum piled on A50 to make the wagon look worse, but I can't find it anymore...

[Ankamius]

Ooh do me next, how many useless one liners have I posted this game?

[Ankamius]

Nah I'll figure it out myself later

[Ankamius]

Can I finishing up by quoting 3028 five times

[Ankamius]

might as well quote it 3028 times

Is that a challenge

[Ankamius]

Cop Jingle and complain about it tomorrow

[Ankamius]

You understand that Jingle not being as town was kind of a thing in general, right?

[Ankamius]

Ankamius
EspeciallyTheLies

Nosferatu

Titus
OnTheMark

Punreader
Jingle

eddie
Gorkington

Spoiler: This interaction is incredibly awkward.

I'm up to the end of page 20:

Ankamius (replaced PenguinPower)

EspeciallyTheLies
Stop Getting Banned Again (vonflare, GuyInFreezer, Annadog40, xyzzy, mcmenno, korina, randomidget, Who, asuka, creature, the worst, tn5421, greenliquid, not_mafia, TheGoldenParadox, CooLDoG, AnonymousGhost, srceenplay, ConManMick, RedFlavor, Aristophanes)

Jingle

Draynth (replaced Mulch)
Gorkington

Nosferatu (replaced KidAmn)
Almost50
Titus

Punreader (replaced CheekyTeeky)
eddie

To be fair, punreader's posts on page 21 are so scummy that he's easily overtaking you as my strongest scumread, so there's your boon for the day.

Btw

I was never hard-scumreading you in Necromancer like I was Brass/Kokichi/Tywin, so that overreaction is very interesting.

These are the Ank side, and it's worth looking at the Eddie side too, but basically Eddie freaked out about being a scumread

before

he had even replaced into the game, on page 20. (his replacement, for reference, comes on page 23) Ank's reaction however, is WAY more interesting. Instead of pointing out that she was still catching up and that this was a reads list from before eddie himself was in the game, she immediately points out that another player (pun) is becoming more scummy and that Eddie shouldn't expect her to be able to read him because she wasn't even hardscumreading him in a recent game.

:thorface:

Bottom of 36:

Now I'm thinking {Almost50 + Gorkington + Eddie} with Nos substituting if there's a town there.

This is fairly representative of Ank's reads lists while catching up. There's not a lot of substance, when you look at them. Consistently, she's naming the people in my PoE pool as scummy, but the names are usually EVERYONE in my PoE pool (other than Nos) or different every time. For the record, this is NAI, not scummy, but I disagree entirely with a townread based on this level of content.

Votecount 2.02

Titus (4)

Punreader , Stop Getting Banned Again , EspeciallyTheLies , eddie , L-2

Nosferatu (4)

Jingle , Titus , Almost50 , Nosferatu , L-2

Not Voting (5)

Draynth , Ankamius , Porkens , Gorkington , Ginngie ,

Day two deadline is Thursday May 24, 6 PM PST. (expired on 2018-05-24 18:00:00). With 11 alive it's 6 to lynch!

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch!

[/size]

First of all, since when do dead slots have a vote?

Second, look at this:

ETL, Jingle, Stop Getting Banned Again, and Nosferatu are all scumreading Almost50.

Punreader, as far as I can tell, has been townreading Almost50 ever since early on in their replacement, only detailing that Titus-scum would increase the chances of Almost50-scum.
Draynth, besides not being here how, hasn't mentioned any read on Almost50 in two weeks (which was lean-scum anyways).

Gorkington hasn't stated any read on Almost50 since page 32, which was in itself vague.

eddie has never stated a read on Almost50 except for a recent... null read I assume?
Titus thinks the scumteam is Eddie/SGBA/Punreader, assuming a townread on Almost50 either to create that PoE or because of that team scumread.

This means that all my strong townreads are scumreading Almost50, yet nobody else is.

I don't think this is a coincidence at all.

This is the definition of low hanging fruit. Look, all of the universal townreads (and Nos) are scumreading this player and no one else is. This is not a reason A50 is scummy. This is a reason A50 is a good target for scum. Rereading A50 to check if derptown or obvscum is now a high priority, as is my reset on Nos.

Also, notably, Ank has expounded on the A50 read as A50 is scum because he's not town, which is pretty :thorface: in context.

Like

If we don't get a scumflip today

I honestly don't know if town can win if my read on the gamestate is at least reasonably accurate barring a huge cop guilty chain or other mechanics, which I try to not rely on whenever possible.

This, frankly, doesn't make any sense. Ank is hardtownreading 4 people. 3 of those people are universal townreads. It is day 2. The only way we're in a bad position here is if town is incompetent or scum has infiltrated the universal townreads. Ank clearly doesn't believe the latter, and I don't think from context that Ank believes either me or ETL to be incompetent, so the former doesn't make sense either. From my PoV this looks like a great place to be as town. This looks way more like what scum should be thinking at this point in the game.

Well

yeah

Almost50 is obvscumming

:thorface:

tbh

If I end up dead tonight, then your reads probably have a lot of merit.

Until then, I don't really agree outside of eddie.

If Ank scum, Titus town.

tl;dr, Pun, I'm gonna need that Ank towncase after all.

Also what do you make of Jingle’s soft defense of A50 while attacking Ank?

That post looks

really

bad with an Almost50 scumflip.

[Ankamius]

Tbf

If nos can't be more of a force tomorrow, my town read on that slot is going to start degrading

[Ankamius]

Have Titus blame me

I need to not have my head inflate too much and that will help a lot

[Ankamius]

You do you I guess

[Ankamius]

I'll be sitting here either grinning widely or wondering what the point of today was

But tomorrow will bring probably the latter

[Ankamius]

Titus

The trigger for that fit was you and ETL trying to brute force the Pun lynch

[Ankamius]

um

what's wrong with engaging people to sort somebody else

[Ankamius]

um

what's wrong with engaging people to sort somebody else

It's not how I deal with scum. Talking to scum just spams the thread. People call it T v T.

So I don't talk to scum. Town doesn't want to talk to me.

Can we just hammer already?

I don't engage scum.

Then you should have engaged Ankamius's reasons for me being town (when Ankamius is the player with the second-best understanding of my meta)

, and you should have engaged JINGLE YOUR STRONGEST TOWNREAD'S reasoning for me being town WHEN HE IS THE PLAYER WITH THE BEST UNDERSTANDING OF MY META.

[Ankamius]

ok I'm not going to lie, the only reason I'm still posting is because I like my kitty

[Ankamius]

well

we're all going to be forced to leave soon

[Ankamius]

anyways

1. Punreader has a history of seeing me as a threat for my reads strength; this CAN be confirmed, though I won't do it here for hopefully obvious reasons. This drastically increases my odds of being nightkilled in a Pun-scum world
2. Day 2 ended with a scum lynch on a wagon that I pushed for. Evidence that my reads don't suck extreme ass

and

I have the influence to push them through. This is grounds for being seen as a threat
3. Put those two together and it actually makes very little sense for me to be alive coming into day three; me dying wouldn't have been weird whether Pun was scum or not since... well, #2

There's also this:

4. Punreader has been engaging me for most of the game
5. Punreader has openly admitted several times that my reads helped shape their own
6. Punreader has always had their reads in a very similar lynch pool to mine

Punreader KNOWS HOW TO COUNTER ME. ^^^THIS IS NOT HOW TO COUNTER ME.

There's also the point that Punreader is a

HUGE

planner as scum. Everything has a purpose, every action is designed to do

something

. Punreader effectively cut out half of the potential scumpool day two,

doubled down

on that scumpool, and again... didn't kill the player (myself) that was basically snaring them to that scumpool. Either Punreader is already planning on lynching within a pool of like 4 players all the way to the end of the game, then Pun outright isn't scum. They're not dumb, they know how to push town into a state where they're bound to lose in LyLo. They'd have a plan already set and in motion towards that goal. I told you this before and asked you what their plan was. I sure as hell don't see it.

[Ankamius]

btw I should mention this too

Punreader knows that the only thing that can stop me with a strong start is by either forcing me to apathy out

or kill me

[Ankamius]

aka

Pun is not scum

with the huge offchance of a massive fucking gambit and hoping I don't catch them today

[Ankamius]

huge = slight

idk why I said huge

maybe I'm tired

[Ankamius]

anyway good night friends

I look forward to seeing who gets a bullet to the head

[Ankamius]

Oh BTW we can speed night now

We can decrease the time it takes before we can start suffering again

[Ankamius]

Joke's on you I never actually read Gork's iso before replacing in

hey are you scum

[Ankamius]

you're such a tease

[Ankamius]

honestly

even if I townread the third for most of the game

I'm very proud of catching two so fast

[Ankamius]

I got town on Jingle

[Ankamius]

obligatory

VOTE: eddie

But I do have two other potential scumreads I'm considering but don't want to out presently

[Ankamius]

actually fuck it

UNVOTE: eddie
VOTE: Nosferatu

[Ankamius]

(btw to anyone who's confused, this vote makes a lot of sense if you think about why titus would be the one killed instead of... well, Punreader, ETL, or me)

[Ankamius]

I got town on Jingle

[Ankamius]

Nosferatu >> OnTheMark >>>> Punreader > eddie >>> Jingle >>>>>>> ETL

roughly my PoE list in order of highest probability scum to lowest

[Ankamius]

The kills and the way you've been playing don't match up

[Ankamius]

{Jingle, Gorkington}
{Titus, Ank, eddie, ETL, SGBA}
{Draynth, punreader}
{}
{Almost50}


I have way too many town reads lmfaooo

was anyone else strongly townreading gork around this point?

because that read is really really really weird, especially from nos

The kills and the way you've been playing don't match up

so are you still sure Pun's town?

Pun wouldn't have played d3 the way they did as scum I don't think

[Ankamius]

plus I think Punreader kills ETL n3

[Ankamius]

Actually I'll go into that a bit more

Punreader kills ETL to avoid the obvtown tunnel on their slot
Use me to lynch eddie D4
Kill me N4

Titus and OTM would have bad reads and no synergy with the rest of town
Jingle... idk
Nosferatu hasn't been a presence

That would be a pretty simple endgame to win for Pun

[Ankamius]

Because you of all people should've been able to pick up on what was obvscum about Gork's posting

because you were the one he was posting to

[Ankamius]

What do you mean what tells? I literally just said that I've only ever seen him as town.

I've also just stated (with proof unless you want to go through my entire game history too) that I've always been able to townread Gork early on and keep it at a townread for the whole game every time I've seen him.

And what's happening this game?

His entrance was scummy
His interactions with Titus was scummy
His interactions with Nosferatu was scummy

I'd have to check my notes again, but I don't think there's much that gave me townvibes on him.

Also to ETL:

Gork because he had a persistent scumread there, I suppose, though the read was never explained, and in 631 he says he can't even remember why he was voting him.

porkens is an enigma and i dont really remember why i felt they were scummy anymore.

but then the next mention of porkens isn't for nearly another hundred posts, in 788 where he votes Nos, and says

porkens and a50 are also okay alternatives on this front!

When I told him I strongly felt that Porkens was town and asked him to convince why I was wrong, he said simply that it was because Porkens just wasn't a townread... and then asked me to convince why I thought Porkens was town (which I did). He then appeals to Porkens to use his vote and be more productive. And asks people to give a hard stance on porkens, titus, and punreader with reasons, and votes porkens again, because

dont feel like theyre honestly trying to get eddie lynched at all right now, which feels especially awful given how little time is left in the day.
<snip>
as of right now im willing to vote titus for deadline if porkens towns it up.

i think it should be obvious that i like porkens lynch more than a titus lynch.

Based on the previous posts and notes here, this was not obvious to me at all...

He also asks for input on Porkens from tn, and eddie. and me. and jingle. and Nos. And argues that Porkens is scummier than Titus... I think. 1073

conclusion

Um... so... I don't have a clue what's going on here. Trajectory makes no sense. Appealing to a bunch of different people, two of which were supposedly "hard scumreads" for input on what became his top scumread (???), none of this makes any sense under the scope.

I think I need to take a long, hard look at Gork overall

I'll go into this in more detail when I go into my Gorkington scumread in the future, but this is literally the point where you're 100% locktowned for me.

I completely missed this progression, but this is exactly the type of behavior I've been noticing from him that's causing me to scumread him as much as I am.

His posts around the time where he started pushing Porkens has felt forged.
His back and forth with Nosferatu is very sketchy; Nosferatu was (apparently less obviously than I thought) giving off intimidated-town tells at Gork's counterpush despite Gork having no basis behind his attack.

There's also his lack of attention towards sorting Almost50 the entire game.
Gorkington, despite having no stated read on Titus up to that point, heavily defends against the wagon on her. This is scummy by itself, but it's even more damning if they're scum together.

That's just with your two non-me scumreads. It should be entirely believable that Gorkington is scum this game because you've already seen the type of play that's indicating it independently, and he also makes sense being scum with both Almost50 and Titus.

I personally don't believe Titus is scum and I don't believe this Titus/Nosferatu dichotomy is going to be good for town no matter which slot is lynched. It's too late for a Titus lynch to be the best scum-flip we can get now because I have a very bad feeling that one of us is going to be the nightkill tonight and that'll be all that's needed for him to run free for the rest of the game.

Btw

I also follow the philosophy that this stream of consciousness thing is very difficult to fake since it's actually really difficult to have an agenda yet manage to hide it while posting in that style. It's not overly difficult to have a consistent internal logic to spew from, but you have to be more careful when you're scum faking it since either you aren't careful enough and scum-intent shines through, or you're too careful and the stream of consciousness shows as fake.

I've never gotten that impression from Nos' posts this game. You can probably make an argument for the routes of discussion that you two have gone down indicating a scummy mindset, but... I just don't see it myself.

(ftr if it wasn't obvious already)

(this type of reasoning is why I'm scumreading gork too)

(pssssst)

[Ankamius]

There's other reasons I think you're scum too Nos

1. Timing of your lurking, it was mainly a thing after gork subbed out
2. I can see you killing Titus in general
3. The general strategy of the night kills benefits a mostly-go-with-the-flow-try-not-to-antagonize-people-too-much approach
4. Too many townreads tell
5. I kinda remember your tone feeling disheartened or defeated over time
6. I think your type of stream of consciousness posting is easier to fake than gork's was; it's plausible to think I hit a blind spot with you specifically when I really look back and go through how you've felt over time

[Ankamius]

Actually I'll go into that a bit more

Punreader kills ETL to avoid the obvtown tunnel on their slot
Use me to lynch eddie D4
Kill me N4

Titus and OTM would have bad reads and no synergy with the rest of town
Jingle... idk
Nosferatu hasn't been a presence

That would be a pretty simple endgame to win for Pun

wifom trapping yourself, but in general fair enough

nos is probs the lynch today depending on Jingle results

where we go if he is town is my concern rn

I can go into why the kills that

did

happen don't fit with Pun's general scum playstyle too if you want!

I don't think I really care enough to go into detail on though, I just don't think Pun deviates from the above or at least finds some way to efficiently manage the suspicion on them. Titus dying doesn't achieve that

[Ankamius]

Oh right

I guess it would be hard to have a kill that saves you as Jingle-scum, wouldn't it

[Ankamius]

Maybe I shouldn't analyze when I'm really tired

[Ankamius]

Jingle is one of the few possible scum left

Having a definite result on him is very good to have

[Ankamius]

Yeah Jingle is looking really guilty

[Ankamius]

You have to assume that the three people with parity on him are all random, which I don't think is the most likely possibility by a long shot

[Ankamius]

Plus we have a fourth with a guilty on him that you also have to assume is random

[Ankamius]

Then a Jingle town flip gives us a lot of info on sanities, which makes him the best lynch anyways

[Ankamius]

haha Ank

if Jingle is scum yesterday we were both passionately fighthing about lynching scum...

too bad Titus and ETL suck

Dead thread must be having a good laugh and a good cry

[Ankamius]

Btw Jingle makes sense as partners with jjh

Jjh kind of dropped a big associative with him

[Ankamius]

Didn't Nos get two different results up to now

[Ankamius]

I'm reading your list wrong nvm

[Ankamius]

Jingle tried to push against me when A50 was going down, it makes sense now in the sense of I had pushed down one scum partner and had the other as my top scum read

It makes sense that Jingle wanted to stop me

But then why the fuck kill SGBA

[Ankamius]

It was always on the table
Just in the background

[Ankamius]

I am confident I can read pun here, mark

[Ankamius]

YES

I love it when I pour my heart out in a game and it pays off in the end

[Ankamius]

The main thing was just blocking the two mislynches on day two

That's what really swung the game I think

[Ankamius]

Dw I gotchu Nos

Until the word Titus kill anyways

[Ankamius]

Weird...

[Ankamius]

I have stuff to say when I have more time

But I want to ask why I was having that much trouble rallying people around me. I only ever pull it off when I'm mechanically cleared and I don't understand why

[Ankamius]

Punreader

I go into your identity a bit in my private pt

Do you want me to ask mhsmith to blank those references before having it released?

[Ankamius]

Watching this town crush ank's spirit makes me sad...

pretty much this

I was really hoping I'd just be nightkilled on night 3 because the way day 3 played out destroyed me even with the scum lynch

[Ankamius]

Ok, I think I'll go a bit more into why this game was really frustrating and why I blew up at the end of day 3, partially because I want to know what the hell I did wrong so I can hopefully have a little less failure at it next time I'm in this situation

I did my catch up and while I wasn't confident in my reads for most of it, I was getting increasingly confident that I had a bead on the gamestate and how it was playing out

I stopped my catchup when I hit ETL's analysis of the Porkens wagon. At that point, I was completely certain that she was town and I wanted to abuse that read to try to get us synced together since I thought at the time that I didn't confidently have the scumteam nailed and I wanted her to find the blind spots for me.

I decide that the best way to start is to push an Almost50 wagon using the advice she gave me (rally a wagon against a third target if I don't like the two current wagons)

I thought my Almost50 case was convincing, yet it was mostly people off my townlist that hopped on. I suspected (apparently only in my private PT... oops) that it was a gambit to try to make the wagon look less appealing. It fit Gork's vote.

OTM replaces in, agrees with me on Almost50, and calls me scum for weirdness I still don't understand. Eventually he scumreads me, my locktown, and the cleared Titus alongside the reasonable Jingle scumread. Titus still goes on about the hydra spamming for the first couple days of the game until it dies. I don't understand a single thing tn5421 does... which is honestly pretty standard, I think I'd be afraid if I understood what tn5421 was saying. All are still townreads but idk how the hell to get everyone on the same page

SGBA dies. Absolutely not what I was expecting. Ok, looks like my view of the gamestate is off

I let ETL convince me to vote Punreader despite my heart of hearts wanting a Gork wagon instead.

Eventually I realize that Punreader might be town and immediately realize that the team surfacing when I assume that is the same as their team. Then I realize they don't make sense as scum with close to anybody. welp

Nobody is convinced on eddie when I push it outside of those that already are
eddie and I fight
we compromise on jjhslot
we finally reach a compromise with Mark and his... bizarre reads. yay I managed to get a townread to rally with me, especially one who thinks I might be scum

ETL tries to force through a Punreader lynch. now I realize I can't work with ETL and give up. win condition failed. game over

Titus does the same thing and I cry on the inside a bit

idk why I wrote that all out but basically I went into the game trying to hold town together long enough to be able to swing the game into town's favor and hopefully get people's reads to start syncing up. At this point I feel like I didn't do anything but shout down a bunch of lynches on what I thought were pretty clearly town slots; it honestly felt at times that town was outright trying to lose since I was

that

confident that I had one more scum pegged and the third would be revealed from there :/ The part that really killed me was seeing ETL try to brute force Jingle onto the Punreader wagon and just realizing that I'd completely failed in the win condition I had for over a full day phase, so I said fuck it and decided that I'd just let whatever lynch the town wanted go through even though I was pretty damn sure the Pun lynch would swing the game back against town.

but

tbf

the town really was that dysfunctional though

[Ankamius]

I know, I was pretty certain I was dead the moment A50 flipped scum

At the very least, I'd posted enough about my history with Pun in the thread to make it pretty painfully obvious that the odds of us two syncing up would be really high, especially since I had already shown that I had the influence to push my opinions through

and

that I had a second correct scumread.

That's a very dangerous gamble he did :/

[Ankamius]

i came around ank

you did on day 4 yes

I was wanting it to happen earlier because I was having a bad feeling that town was in a precarious position if it didn't solidify together sooner rather than later; even without the read, you were the best means to that since you were the most widely townread at that time

I think replacing into Penguin's slot was probably detrimental to that

[Ankamius]

I know, I was pretty certain I was dead the moment A50 flipped scum

At the very least, I'd posted enough about my history with Pun in the thread to make it pretty painfully obvious that the odds of us two syncing up would be really high,

which is dangerous

especially since I had already shown that I had the influence to push my opinions through

and

that I had a second correct scumread

and that it would be hard for him to combat that directly without Pun picking up on the scum intent.

.

That's a very dangerous gamble he did :/

[Ankamius]

idk

I'm just sad we never synced until the game was essentially over already

I tried so hard

[Ankamius]

yeah that didn't help me see very clearly but i had started day 3 with suspicion jingle might not be town. it was just hard to let it go. the more things didn't add up the more it became clear which is why i kind of backed off pun later in the day and agreed to cop jingle.

I had the right idea

I had Gork pegged and was already skeptical of Jingle again. I don't think it would've been impossible to convince you Gork was scum because you had already noticed the signs he was scum, just didn't connect it with scum dots specifically; Jingle would've been the biggest not-necessarily-town read for PoE and just exploring that would've probably outed a lot of the stuff that indicated Jingle-scum earlier.

[Ankamius]

i'm sorry! we need more games together. i have a hard time reading you

mm

it's kind of hard to explain how to best read me, I know very well the differences between how I think as alignments, but not as much how they show up to other people

A lot of people seem to get it after seeing me as both alignments a couple times though. I guess it's not super difficult to figure out.

[Ankamius]

the fact that jjh flipped scum meant my reads were off and you were probably town. no way the last scum hard pushes his buddy to lynch for two days.

tbf, everything I said related to why I was town was basically true.

I'm not a bad planner as scum, I'd need a very good reason to push A50 to the grave like that as scum. That doesn't exist unless I'm saving my other buddy from being lynched, and Titus had just gotten cop cleared immediately afterwards. And... well, as Jingle said, I was pretty blatantly attaching myself to Nosferatu, so that would've been a massive risk for a batch of towncred that isn't enough to endgame before people start wondering why I'm not dead yet.

[Ankamius]

well... I need to be sneaky, I don't get anything done otherwise

[Ankamius]

congrats on 6666 posts mastina

[Ankamius]

Sorry Gork

Hugs

[Ankamius]

Tbf Jingle

If you hadn't attacked me at the end of day 2, you probably would have blind sided me forever

[Ankamius]

Pun, I think you're underestimating how drastic the A50 lynch was.

Either I'd have been killed (very very likely because... well... duh) and your biggest shield is missing, or I wouldn't have had the clout from the A50 scumflip to shield you effectively. Keep in mind that even with my shielding, you still almost got lynched on day three. Assuming that town would've gone the same path as we did here... then how do you stop the lynch?

That's not even considering a Nosferatu lynch after the Titus townflip. It's actually really difficult to get a scumlynch there with the way the gamestate was.

The game becomes a huge mess really quickly, and with a competent night planner with scum (which... well, would have looked quite a bit better without that A50 defense)... I don't really favor town's chances very much there.

[Ankamius]

Another underestimated point is that Jingle essentially

had

to push me as obvtown in order to avoid any developments from the attack on me at the end of day two.

It's... kind of hard to discredit or deflect a town that is correct, influential, and someone who you're supposed to be thinking is really obviously town. Especially one that already talked down a case on your mislynch target the day before.

[Ankamius]

Well... as for me figuring out Jingle earlier than everybody else, I probably would have burnt out and apathied if I wasn't being listened to and saw all the town death going on.

A lot of my momentum was from the A50 scumflip and the Titus cop-innos, which showed me that I was well on the right track.

[Ankamius]

well

ETL had influence and charisma to get her reads pushed through, but she was far more likely to push down her two townreads over A50
You had two scum in your scumreads, but you... also had obvtown in your scumreads too, which made people not want to trust or work with you
Punreader had mediocre to ok reads and had little influence, but was willing to work with people. Sadly, that's pretty useless without someone with better reads and charisma to work with.
eddie was both being suspected and had somewhat already ruined their chances of being able to rally town together. It wouldn't really be doable to bring town together for that slot.
SGBA... is SGBA. They didn't have a whole lot of influence over anything on day two and iirc the reads I saw from whatever slots put reads out there weren't very accurate either. There's also the point that their continued existence in the game basically single-handedly ruins Titus' odds of influencing anything.

then you have one of:
Titus, who had very wrong reads and was tunneling the obvtown hydra
Nosferatu, who was willing to work with people, but had no presence anymore

That doesn't have very much chances of coming together and still having the ability to accurately push scum to a lynch. Far more likely is that even if a town (ETL, maybe eddie/Punreader) manages to bring enough town together to push a scumread down, they'll just get nightkilled themselves the next night and the trend will continue.

A50 got lynched because the suspicion was already there, it just needed to be pushed (which snowballed, since I wasn't killed N2). Even then, just outright killing me would've been a huge step towards reaching this gamestate anyways, albeit with some huge advantages over a mislynch:

1. A scumflip, obviously. More room to fuck up and still have a town win.
2. Both the players on the chopping block before the A50 wagon sprang up easily hopped on over to a confirm scum when the wagon started. That's a strong indicator that they're both town, even without my shielding.
3. Jingle's soft-defense of A50 is still there, so it's reasonable that he's in the PoE list

I don't really know what exactly ETL would have done in that scenario since it's hard to parse whether the Punreader tunnel was due to the fact that she specifically wasn't killed or that a weird SGBA kill was done instead, but if that doesn't change, then Punreader probably dies day 3, sadly.

It's a huge slippery slope :/ The gamestate was very fragile even going into day three, but hopefully the strength of my gorkington scumread would've been enough to at least make sure he gets lynched

eventually

, which would still win town the game as long as Jingle isn't allowed to fuck with the setup too much to make the results useless. At the very least, there's a realistic and obvious paper trail that town paying attention should be able to pick up on in this scenario which doesn't exist in a game where A50 doesn't die (and assuming I'm killed N2, which is blatantly the best scum play in that scenario).

[Ankamius]

Oh I should probably respond to this too:

Ank didn't die because that was as good as hanging a sign around gork's neck reading "LYNCH HERE!" Additionally, I was fairly confident in my ability to get the townread from her. SGBA on the other hand was no longer providing and background noise I could hide behind, tn can be a scary fuck, and 23 people is a lot of eyes that could choose to take a look at the thread and screw me. Of course, only like 4 of the people in the hydra were likely to do so, but...

I tend to get nightkilled very fast when I have influence for damn good reason.

The town was still dysfunctional enough that it wasn't guaranteed that Gork-slot would've been pushed down. It should be clear that was the case just by how incredibly hard it was for me to get my townreads to join the wagon. I lgot Nosferatu to join pretty easily, but literally everyone else I was appealing to either wasn't interested at all or just "...meh, I guess" hopped their way over to it.

And that's from direct appeals to people who were already scumreading Almost50

.

How the hell would anyone get Titus to follow them onto Gork? Or Mark? Gork by that point was a reasonably strong scumread, so even everyone else who could be convinced over would probably take some convincing to hop on over.

It's far more likely that town would've found tunnels on each other, or gone back to that dichotomy between Nosferatu and Titus (except without me there to shout both of them down a second time), or... really just about anything other than being coordinated enough to push down Gorkington.

And as for me... I would've caught you eventually no matter what happened just by how I gamesolve

I gamesolve by putting pieces together from various clues around the gamestate and trying to push things that have the highest scum equity but also the highest information equity. My read strength actually is mostly irrelevant, I only need one correct scumread at a time, as long as I'm seeing that scumread as the best one to push.

That's why my eddie scumread actually wasn't a bad thing at all despite being wrong: I had an accurate enough view of the gamestate that I would eventually hit the correct answer and be confident in it. That's mostly what happened with the Titus nightkill; if I hadn't locked onto a shiny object (Nosferatu)... I probably would have caught you day 4 even without the mechanical guilties, it just would have taken longer. :/

Plus I'm well aware of my blind spot towards being townread, so that wouldn't have worked

[Ankamius]

BUT

it's good to FINALLY know how my playstyle works out when I'm this engaged for so long

I get nightkilled immediately whenever I'm on track for that every single time and it's actually kind of aggravating at times.

[Ankamius]

Pun would've sheeped me most likely

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe Nos

Everyone else... nah

[Ankamius]

rip mhsmith

[Ankamius]

JESUS smith

that's actually scary

[Ankamius]

rip mhsmith