Mini 572 - Packrats (game over)

[Zindaras]

Zindaras - you can post more rather than just endlessly repeat yourself while deadline creeps up. Even thought he rest of hte game is moving on, you want me to talk about who you quoted in another game, presumably as some way to detract from the allegations I'm making about you in this game. Why?

510 is directed towards yos and eldarad, do youw ant me to respond to that too?

Are you hiding behind waiting for other people to respond to avoid contributing and/.or actually scumhunting yourself?

Your holier-than-thou hypocrisy annoys me.

[Ether]

2 Mizzy (Skruffs, eldarad)
1 Rotten Snitch (Yosarian2)

6 Unvote (Andycyca, hasdgfas, Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Y, Zindaras)

9 alive; 5 to lynch.

[Skruffs]

All you do is say my rhetoric is rubbish, then say you are waiting for me to reply before you are going to continue playing the game. I'm not being holier-than-thou. You're playing like Zindie scum, and I got criticized for saying that. You pretty obviously have spent almost every single post in this game belittling or reprimanding me, and now you can only say that I'm holier than thou.

Whatever. If I remember correctly, you waited a day or two after deadline before you started contributing. Do you intend to disappear when this deadline hits, too? It gets significantly easier for town to wind up with a no-lynch with every higher ratio of scum to town.

There's no proof of there being any power roles, and I'm not saying there should be. I am putting everything I see out there, I think I make some good points - you completely ignored everything I've said about/to Mizzy since the whole "group of scum through ignorance" thing

You've just made it pretty clear that you would rather ignore actual casess and focus on earlier cases that you know nobody cares about anyways, and yet I'm the one who's ridiculous for seeing hte connection between the two.


What do you think abuot Mizzy's following you onto Capricious, pushing hte capricious wagon, pushing me away from attakcing you and trying to get me to focus on capricious, then, like you, jumping offf shortly before deadline, hoping off the wagon and then criticizing the people on it?

Why doesn't Mizzy's post-capricious stance on teh capricious wagon strike you as 'holier - than - thou"?

[Mizzy]

• Rules (you should probably read these)

1. Assuming you don't lynch anyone, a day phase should last two weeks. When the two weeks are up, the game will enter a deadline. In every 24-hour block after the deadline, a majority of the living players must post or the game will go to night. Basically, lynch quickly or keep things active.
   
2. If the game goes to night due to a deadline, there won't be a lynch. Someone has to consciously place a hammer.

Mizzy, the game started with a KNOWN two-week deadline, every day.


You can't say we didn't start off with one, because it was public knowledge that we did. You were too busy trying to prevent actual scum hunting from going on to read the rules, I guess.

Except that we can keep the deadlines postponed by being active. Which, we did, quite successfully.

[Mizzy]

Oh, and I've already mentioned who I suspect most and why...those are the people I think are scum. No one has asked me anything about my cases on them, and no one has bothered asking me much without then attacking the crap out of me for answering. In short, I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

[Zindaras]

All you do is say my rhetoric is rubbish, then say you are waiting for me to reply before you are going to continue playing the game. I'm not being holier-than-thou. You're playing like Zindie scum, and I got criticized for saying that. You pretty obviously have spent almost every single post in this game belittling or reprimanding me, and now you can only say that I'm holier than thou.

"Hi, I'm Skruffs. I've just spent most of the game metagaming Zindaras with irrelevant and crappy references. I will now proceed to rebut everything he's raised against my pretentious metagaming by strawmanning him and accusing him of bringing up stuff that's irrelevant to the game."

I've rebutted

every

single argument you've posted. I've asked you

direct questions

. If you are town, you have

no

reason to ignore my arguments. The reference to California Trilogy proves that the scumtell you so arrogantly claimed was committed by me was not, in fact, a scumtell.

Relevant quote:

I will follow this up with a quote-post from Andycaca. (Here's a hint: he doesn't quote Zindaras, either)

So, thanks Zindaras. Your blatant mockery led me to a rather unusual find: You , Mizzy, and Andycac rarely quote each other. ^.^

Where's the follow-up, Skruffs?

And now you accuse me of spending too much time on you? Oh, I'm sure that if I didn't go through the time-staking process of stemming your arguments, I'd be accused of "ignoring" your beautiful case.

Whatever. If I remember correctly, you waited a day or two after deadline before you started contributing. Do you intend to disappear when this deadline hits, too? It gets significantly easier for town to wind up with a no-lynch with every higher ratio of scum to town.

So I'm town now? Make up your mind.

And my time constraints are not of the issue here. I am not able to post every day. I have my study to attend to.

There's no proof of there being any power roles, and I'm not saying there should be. I am putting everything I see out there, I think I make some good points - you completely ignored everything I've said about/to Mizzy since the whole "group of scum through ignorance" thing

If you'd actually have bothered reading 508, you'd have seen that I do not, actually, ignore what you say about Mizzy and that I do not disagree with everything you've said.

You've just made it pretty clear that you would rather ignore actual casess and focus on earlier cases that you know nobody cares about anyways, and yet I'm the one who's ridiculous for seeing hte connection between the two.

You

are the one who sees this case you've apparently brought up on me as something that indicates that I am scum. I have rebutted your case, yet you still see me as scum and ignore my rebuttals.

What do you think abuot Mizzy's following you onto Capricious

Directly after I called out Capricious. We also see Sir T there, but he was voting Capricious before and not because I was doing that, so there's no following there.
Somewhat later.
And then, finally, Mizzy's following. Which isn't even direct following. In fact, the only real true following there is eldarad's.

Is Mizzy's following onto Capricious weird or scummy? Yes. But what I disagree with, and why I find a large part of the Mizzy case to be very disconcerting, is the fact that there is a

lot

of hypocrisy here. If Mizzy is scum for following me, then why does the same not apply for eldarad and hasdgfas here?

pushing hte capricious wagon

I'm not seeing her actions as being particularly pushy. A quick read of her posts show more of a resemblance to Yossy's posts, being exasperated with Capri's lack of posting.

pushing me away from attakcing you

If you'd have bothered reading my posts, you'd have found this out a long time ago. Hint: it's right there where I ask you a direct question.

and trying to get me to focus on capricious

I don't see where she is doing this.

then, like you

Like me? Y'know, the part where I was off Capricious for ages?

jumping offf shortly before deadline, hoping off the wagon

I don't see her doing this, as she has never truely been

on

the wagon.

and then criticizing the people on it?

I do not see how this is a scumtell in itself. Honestly, the thing which mainly bothers me is that she singles out hasdgfas and eldarad as scum, while they're the ones who put their money where their mouth is, rather than you, Y or Yosarian. I'd like to see her explain that, actually.

Mizzy

, see line before this.

Why doesn't Mizzy's post-capricious stance on teh capricious wagon strike you as 'holier - than - thou"?

Who said it doesn't?

[Zindaras]

Oh, and I've already mentioned who I suspect most and why...those are the people I think are scum. No one has asked me anything about my cases on them, and no one has bothered asking me much without then attacking the crap out of me for answering. In short, I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

^_^

Nice coincidence. See the end of my above post. I'd like to know why you're singling out hasdgfas and eldarad from the list of Capri-voters.

[Zindaras]

Making things up to drive suspicion is

scummy

. There needs to be something concrete there and Capri wasn't giving us good reasons to suspect people.

Slightly off, given the fact that he's not attacking Skruffs over this.

471 I need to read a couple more times, but it's quite interesting to me as of right now.

Recheck, did you respond to this?

This was supposed to be in the last post too:
Mizzy's attitude towards the people on the Capricious lynch is really scummy to me. Mizzy wasn't doing anything to get a lynch, and it looked like she wanted to no-lynch, which wouldn't have helped anyone except the scum. She wasn't doing anything to get the wagon off of Capri either. She didn't have another target for us. To me, it seemed like she wanted to be off-wagon so as not to come under suspicion and so she could hold it over our heads today, while she was actually fine with Capri getting lynched because she's scum and knew he was town. If she actually was serious about not wanting him lynched, she could have provided another option for us instead of saying "he's town, don't lynch him" then today saying "I told you so" which is actually a scumtell and leads me to a

FoS: Mizzy

What do you think of Rotten Snitch's non-voting?

Yosarian has provided a solid defense for his Capri-vote in 520. I am okay with his explanation.

And yes, the entire Capri wagon (and those NOT on the wagon) do need to be scrutinized because that's kind of how you play the game.

I'll say it again: you failed to lynch scum too.

Does that make her wrong? We, collectively, failed to lynch scum yesterday. This argument is getting dangerously close to "We should discard what happened on previous lynches". Mizzy is right in trying to find scum on the Capricious-wagon. And others are right in trying to find out why Mizzy was non-voting and seeing if she had underlying reasons for that (read: she did it because she's scum). But these two arguments do not cancel each other out.

The "I told you so." You may not like it, but it is scummy.

I don't find anything wrong with the rest (in fact, it's prety much what I wanted: a concise explanation of why you think Mizzy is scum), but I can't say I like this. I'd have to have some statistics for this, but I don't believe "I told you so" is a scumtell.

Somewhat in-depth analysis of 471:

You're not particularly hypocritical, I just see you claiming that Andy's lynch was "necessary", when I see it completely and utterly differently. The only necessary lynches are scum lynches.

An excellent point. They are technically the only necessary lynches. I agree that it wasn't a necessary lynch. Capricious was my main suspect, however, so I thought it was a good lynch, especially since he didn't seem to care enough to defend himself.

You see, I see you saying that no other lynch was going to happen, but I see you claiming you would've preferred someone else. I see Skruffs saying that he's just ensuring a Day 1 lynch. I see Y claiming Capri's not his main suspect. I see Andy, where I'm not sure what he was thinking.

Interesting observation. It is true, from what I can see, and not really a good thing to be doing at all. Since there's no "hard deadline" in this game from what I can tell, you still can try to convince people to switch suspects if you don't like the wagon of choice at the time. Don't just resign yourself to the lynch of someone that you think is time because "it's necessary." It isn't. Make a good case on someone else and a better lynch can happen.

But, if you look at the "real" vote count, you see something interesting (before Andy's hammer):

2 Capricious (eldarad, hasdgfas)
1 Andycyca (Elmo)
1 hasdgfas (Capricious)
1 Mizzy (Skruffs)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Zindaras)

4 Unvote (Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Andycyca, Yosarian2)

I have no idea where you would've put your vote because I don't think you ever said anything about your main suspect (and I'm skimming because I want sleep), but, basically, the people who just wanted to assure a lynch? They're the ones who got Capricious killed.

Interesting again. It seems like just because the most discussion was about Capricious before the deadline insanity votes, that was why Capricious was the one chosen. Those who just jumped on to ensure a lynch could probably have convinced the town to jump onto a different suspect if there was a good case, but nobody seemed to care enough. I wonder why that is.

I can hardly disagree with your observations, but I'd so like to hear just a little more than this. Do you think that, given this, it is truely so odd to go crack down somewhat on the people who didn't actually put their money where their mouth was? Do you think that is a scumtell? Then what do you think of Skruffs/Y/Yosarian?

I do not like Skruffs posts. Although they do make sense in some ways they just make ya feel like he is intentionally leading you. Don't like that. rather make my own observations.

Could you point out what makes you feel this way?

Zindy I get a bad vibe from. I do not like from the first few posts Skruffs was out to get him. This was all based on Meta and the exchange between them had 0% current game-scum hunting-pro town-content.

I'm scum because Skruffs is attacking me?

I disagree. Specifically, I don't think it is valid to exclude some votes as being "not genuine." I don't agree that certain kinds of votes have less weight than others. Although certainly I agree that we can question the motivation behind the vote.

Okay, so if I post that I think Yosarian is town and then vote him, my vote will still be genuine and good? Because that situation is pretty comparable. They're just voting someone down the line of scumminess, while it was just as possible to get a wagon going on someone else, even the person of

their

choosing. Yet they settled for second best, or third best, or whatever. Not their first suspect.

I am strongly of the opinion that those who didn't vote at all Yesterday do not get a free pass Today because they didn't help to lynch a townie.

And where do you see anyone saying that? Because nobody did.

You'll notice that I have not made a case for you as scum as yet - although I note that you have similar attitude to Mizzy with respect of not being on the Capri wagon and therefore being somehow beyond reproach Today.

Where do you see me saying this? All I've been arguing for is a careful consideration of the people who voted Capri while he wasn't their main suspect, and I've been trying to get some responses out of them.

Top page 23, I'm grabbing myself some sleep and leaving the rest of the game and Y's response on Page 21 or wherever it is till tomorrow.

[Mizzy]

Zind: This is what I said already about Eld and Has:

Has, you're up from a 5 because of (and only because) of you kind of disappearing from the game and then coming back and appearing to attack the "opportune" target without having given much content first. I would have given you those points no matter who you had attacked if that person was the "opportune" target, whether it was myself or not.

Eld is up there because his aggressive behavior kind of came out of left field. It does feel like he's trying to take out frustration on someone, and I don't like it.

I don't suspect anyone based on their Capri-wagon activity, but mostly based on their D2 actions.

[hasdgfas]

471 I need to read a couple more times, but it's quite interesting to me as of right now.

Recheck, did you respond to this?

Yes, you quoted it later in this post.

This was supposed to be in the last post too:
Mizzy's attitude towards the people on the Capricious lynch is really scummy to me. Mizzy wasn't doing anything to get a lynch, and it looked like she wanted to no-lynch, which wouldn't have helped anyone except the scum. She wasn't doing anything to get the wagon off of Capri either. She didn't have another target for us. To me, it seemed like she wanted to be off-wagon so as not to come under suspicion and so she could hold it over our heads today, while she was actually fine with Capri getting lynched because she's scum and knew he was town. If she actually was serious about not wanting him lynched, she could have provided another option for us instead of saying "he's town, don't lynch him" then today saying "I told you so" which is actually a scumtell and leads me to a

FoS: Mizzy

What do you think of Rotten Snitch's non-voting?

Yesterday, today?

Somewhat in-depth analysis of 471:

You're not particularly hypocritical, I just see you claiming that Andy's lynch was "necessary", when I see it completely and utterly differently. The only necessary lynches are scum lynches.

An excellent point. They are technically the only necessary lynches. I agree that it wasn't a necessary lynch. Capricious was my main suspect, however, so I thought it was a good lynch, especially since he didn't seem to care enough to defend himself.

You see, I see you saying that no other lynch was going to happen, but I see you claiming you would've preferred someone else. I see Skruffs saying that he's just ensuring a Day 1 lynch. I see Y claiming Capri's not his main suspect. I see Andy, where I'm not sure what he was thinking.

Interesting observation. It is true, from what I can see, and not really a good thing to be doing at all. Since there's no "hard deadline" in this game from what I can tell, you still can try to convince people to switch suspects if you don't like the wagon of choice at the time. Don't just resign yourself to the lynch of someone that you think is time because "it's necessary." It isn't. Make a good case on someone else and a better lynch can happen.

But, if you look at the "real" vote count, you see something interesting (before Andy's hammer):

2 Capricious (eldarad, hasdgfas)
1 Andycyca (Elmo)
1 hasdgfas (Capricious)
1 Mizzy (Skruffs)
1 Skruffs (Y)
1 Y (Zindaras)

4 Unvote (Mizzy, Rotten Snitch, Andycyca, Yosarian2)

I have no idea where you would've put your vote because I don't think you ever said anything about your main suspect (and I'm skimming because I want sleep), but, basically, the people who just wanted to assure a lynch? They're the ones who got Capricious killed.

Interesting again. It seems like just because the most discussion was about Capricious before the deadline insanity votes, that was why Capricious was the one chosen. Those who just jumped on to ensure a lynch could probably have convinced the town to jump onto a different suspect if there was a good case, but nobody seemed to care enough. I wonder why that is.

I can hardly disagree with your observations, but I'd so like to hear just a little more than this. Do you think that, given this, it is truely so odd to go crack down somewhat on the people who didn't actually put their money where their mouth was? Do you think that is a scumtell? Then what do you think of Skruffs/Y/Yosarian?

It's only a scumtell if they do it merely for getting a lynch, the way a couple of them did. Those who voted for Capri who didn't find them scummy and who also didn't give good explanations should absolutely be scrutinized. Yosarian's explanation was acceptable to me, but the others haven't really given good reasons for why they felt they needed to vote for Capri.

[Y]

I actually wrote a big post, and it seems like everybody missed it. I did think, at the moment, that Capri was scum. I was just less sure about it than about Skruffs (Who keeps trying to make up accusations using some weird logic).

Zindaras, you keep me at the top of your list, yet you're the only one, and you're ignoring my responses. Why is that?

[Zindaras]

Yes, you quoted it later in this post.

Yeah, I should've deleted it myself but I forgot. >.<

Yesterday, today?

Both.

[Zindaras]

I actually wrote a big post, and it seems like everybody missed it. I did think, at the moment, that Capri was scum. I was just less sure about it than about Skruffs (Who keeps trying to make up accusations using some weird logic).

Zindaras, you keep me at the top of your list, yet you're the only one, and you're ignoring my responses. Why is that?

Top page 23, I'm grabbing myself some sleep and leaving the rest of the game and Y's response on Page 21 or wherever it is till tomorrow.

Your post looked pretty time-intensive to check everything, and I'm currently trying to just respond to what's been posted since then, and then I can go and see what I think of your post.

[Yosarian2]

hasdgfas, I still would like you to explain why you would see a mod post saying we have half a week until deadline and your reaction is to actually attack me for trying to encourage people to vote, and to tell me we have "pleanty of time". Why aren't you voting, exactally? Do you really think that you not voting for anyone right now is the correct pro-town move for you to do in this situation?

[Y]

Your post looked pretty time-intensive to check everything, and I'm currently trying to just respond to what's been posted since then, and then I can go and see what I think of your post.

You haven't read it thoroughly, yet you keep accusing me for things I explained in that post.

[eldarad]

I'll say it again: you failed to lynch scum too.

Does that make her wrong? We, collectively, failed to lynch scum yesterday. This argument is getting dangerously close to "We should discard what happened on previous lynches"

No it doesn't. This argument says "we, collectively, failed to lynch scum Yesterday and so individuals who weren't on the Capri wagon don't get a free pass today."
I think it is significant that you have freely admitted that the town, collectively, is responsible for the mislynch. That's something Mizzy was reluctant to concede.

Okay, so if I post that I think Yosarian is town and then vote him, my vote will still be genuine and good?

No. If you post that you think Yosarian is town and then vote him, your vote will still be genuine.
Then we can look into the motivation behind the vote. All votes are "real" in that they contribute to a lynch.

I am strongly of the opinion that those who didn't vote at all Yesterday do not get a free pass Today because they didn't help to lynch a townie.

And where do you see anyone saying that? Because nobody did.

I see Mizzy using that argument for leverage, even if it is never explicitly stated. It's one of the things I've called her on Today. IIRC, several other players have also called her up on this.

Rotten Snitch, thanks for your answer in post 593. I'd like to follow up on one point:

Was Capri’s lynch cause by scum. I can say there is a guarantee that at least one scum was on his wagon. We do not know how many bad guys there are but we can most defiantly assume there are two or more. Looking back at the voting patterns Zindy was on Capri in the beginning and then bailed when it started gathering speed. Maybe this was to say he thought Capri was town. I think anyone at this point in the game saying Capri was town should be looked at. Capri was not acting completely scummy but was also not acting in a purely town manner.

I agree with you that, given that Capri was a villager and that the majority of players voted for him, at least one scum was on the Capri wagon.
I guess the next question is

where

on the wagon did the scum join?

Personally, I think we can search for scum more fruitfully amongst those who avoided the Capri wagon (or, indeed, those who bailed out).

~~~
I'm pretty sure there was something else I wanted to reply to, but I've forgotten it already...

[Rotten Snitch]

I'm more wondering about Yos's statements. I looked back at the previous day's voting. Yos states that he would be happier with my lynch and then moves his vote to Capri. He then states yesterday and today he did not want to lynch Capri but it was an inevitable wagon and nothing was going to change it. Although during this whole time you did nothing to try to change it. You went along with it and badgered Capri to defend himself and so on to justify your vote.
In the end you voted him because he was the easier lynch. That is not town thinking. I believe Andy's hammer was essential because we were at a point that we were posting just to keep day 1 from deadlining. But when Yos voted Capri there was still good conversation. The bandwagon could have been changed.

I'm almost convinced that Yos was just setteling for one of the two townies and didnt really care. There was a wagon and an deadline and he felt comfortable switching his vote although I was a more favorite scum choice for him.

Again I stress between day 1 and day 2 Yos has suspected me and has not yet full out attacked me or questioned pretty much anything I have done really. You mentioned my inactivity when Mizzy mentioned it. But I had made 3-4 posts by then.

Yos I would like to know why you were so quick to change your vote on someone you thought was less scummy instead of try to put a case on me?
I also want to know why you still havent put a valid case on me day 2?
Are you hiding behind your vote on me waiting for another bandwagon to jump on?
Or even the deadline? You do seem pushy to start a bandwagon before deadline.

Is it easier to get a townie lynched on a deadline bandwagon like yesterday buddy?

[hasdgfas]

Yesterday, today?

Both.

I feel like RS has had plenty of good reasons to vote for someone. He's expressed suspicion of multiple people. I'm feeling like he just wants to throw suspicion around without being accused of something if a lynch happens. I'm not reading really closely to get this conclusion, but it seems that way to me by glancing over his posts.

hasdgfas, I still would like you to explain why you would see a mod post saying we have half a week until deadline and your reaction is to actually attack me for trying to encourage people to vote, and to tell me we have "pleanty of time". Why aren't you voting, exactally? Do you really think that you not voting for anyone right now is the correct pro-town move for you to do in this situation?

Why am I not voting? I can't decide whom to vote for right now. I was going to vote Mizzy, but I've seen other things today that make me think differently. It's not an anti-town move necessarily to not vote.
The reason we still have plenty of time is the fact that the deadline mechanic just means we have to talk in order to not no-lynch. We can make this day as long as we want it to be by talking.

[Mizzy]

No it doesn't. This argument says "we, collectively, failed to lynch scum Yesterday and so individuals who weren't on the Capri wagon don't get a free pass today."
I think it is significant that you have freely admitted that the town, collectively, is responsible for the mislynch. That's something Mizzy was reluctant to concede.

Well, no, the town collectively is responsible for not lynching scum, but only the wagoners are responsible for the mislynch. Big difference.

I see Mizzy using that argument for leverage, even if it is never explicitly stated. It's one of the things I've called her on Today. IIRC, several other players have also called her up on this.

I have said multiple times that EVERYONE should be looked at, myself included.

Personally, I think we can search for scum more fruitfully amongst those who avoided the Capri wagon (or, indeed, those who bailed out).

I feel that ruling out either half of the equation is moronic.

[Yosarian2]

I'm more wondering about Yos's statements. I looked back at the previous day's voting. Yos states that he would be happier with my lynch and then moves his vote to Capri. He then states yesterday and today he did not want to lynch Capri but it was an inevitable wagon and nothing was going to change it. Although during this whole time you did nothing to try to change it. You went along with it and badgered Capri to defend himself and so on to justify your vote.

You're pretty much completly wrong there. There was one thing that could have prevented a Capi lynch, and that would have been Capi defending himself, and I did everything I could to ask, to cajole, to pressure, and to threaten him in order to do that. If he wasn't going to defend himself, then the 3 people already voting for him weren't likely to leave the wagon, and without those 3 the odds of us sucessfully putting together a good wagon on someone else within the time constraits were slim to none.

Anyway, I already explained all of this. If you really care about why I voted capi, go back and respond to that post. But it looks more like you're just trying to attack me because I'm attacking you, you're trying to find some kind of leverage you can use to undermine here, and that makes me think you're scum.

In the end you voted him because he was the easier lynch. That is not town thinking.

And what were you doing at the time, exactally? Were you trying to get a different wagon going? Were you trying to convince us Capi was a bad lynch? Were you trying to get the town to change directions? No. You weren't voting anyone at all. You were making vauge, wishy washy statements like this:

Some of my thoughts now that I am back. Again I apologize for being gone, if anyone has been to Ft. Polk, LA they will agree that my week sucked 

Anyway, I have done a partial read through and some things have come to my attention.
I will agree that Capri is a little odd in his posting. I have never played with Capri so I can’t say if this is usual or not. I do not really like his post 293

pro-town people are creators, scum play tag-along/ are concluders

I agree with everyone else in that this was a horrible waste of time.

I DISLIKE how you are asking if Capri has claimed. We have been making the deadline so far each time and as far as I know. In post 347 you are looking for a claim and it is no where near the chopping block for Capri yet.
I LIKE: his case he has presented on Capri and I agree with most of it. I just think the above point is a little off-ish, too soon to be asking for a roleclaim.

Mizzy I don’t like your WIFOM in post 323. You jumped down my throat so far you could touch my harbles for WIFOM. Yet it is ok when you do it because you are aware and saying so? It is still WIFOM and very two-faced. Muddying up the waters…..

Y your post 412 agrees with my previous posting on Skruffs defending me to bring it up against me later. I also agree that he could be fencing with everyone to stir up the pot later. Although I have to admit it is just the way Skruffs is. Damn him!

Where you said that you like the case againsst Capi, but that it was "too soon" to be asking for a roleclaim; where you said that he was acting "odd", but you didn't have enough meta on him to know if that meant anything or not. Basically it looks to me like you were happy with a Capi lynch (after all, you did just say you "agreed" with the case on him) but you didn't want to be directly associated with it yourself.

And then you said this:

Post......
I hate to say it I agree.
with a deadline being strung out this is getting difficult as people lose interest in posting to keep it alive. I doubt with a 24 hour deadline the wagon will swing.

Capri you really should be active right now.

Where you seem to AGREE that a Capi lynch was pretty much inevitable (I'm assuming that's what you meant for saying that you doubt the wagon will swing, right?) and say attack Capi was not being active enough (basically, for not defending himself, right?)

So everything that I've said today, everything that you're now trying to claim is scummy, you apparently agreed with at the time. And you certanly never did anything that looked like you were trying to find a better wagon yesterday, or gave any sign that you thought the capi wagon was bad, or anything. It looks like you didn't really care if there was a capi lynch or a no-lynch, that either one would be fine with you.

confirm vote:Rotton Snitch

Seriously, why is no one else voting for this guy here?

I believe Andy's hammer was essential because we were at a point that we were posting just to keep day 1 from deadlining. But when Yos voted Capri there was still good conversation. The bandwagon could have been changed.

Were you doing anything to try to change the wagon? It dosn't look like it to me.

I'm almost convinced that Yos was just setteling for one of the two townies and didnt really care. There was a wagon and an deadline and he felt comfortable switching his vote although I was a more favorite scum choice for him.

Pro-town people need to be willing to agree, to compromise, and to come together to form a consensess. I am still convinced that based on what I knew, everything I did yesterday was the best pro-town move i could do at the time I did it.

Although you're right about one thing; I should have trusted my gut instint more and attacked you harder yesterday before settling on the Capi wagon, because I'm increasingly certain you're scum.

I also want to know why you still havent put a valid case on me day 2?

A valid case? You look scummy, you feel scummy, and have done so all game. Your actions involving the Capi wagon feel scummy, as I explained above, and they certanly contradict the argument you're trying to make against me now. I've seen basically no sign so far that you've done anything to try to help the town accomplish anything. You're attacking me for things I've already explained, and doing so while totally ignoring the explinations I've already made.

Besides, even without all that, at this stage in the game a gut feeling is enough. If everyone who's pro-town should be voting right now for whomever they think is most likely to be scum, and I think they should, then people should be willing to do that even if it's just based on a gut feeling.

Are you hiding behind your vote on me waiting for another bandwagon to jump on?

Hiding behind my vote on you? Why would I have to "hide" behind any vote, when almost no one else is voting at all?

And no, I'm not "looking for another bandwagon to jump on". I'm always open to be convinced, but right now, I'm pretty sure today we need lynch you.

Or even the deadline? You do seem pushy to start a bandwagon before deadline.

Is that supposed to be attack on me?

Why AREN'T you pushy to start a bandwagon before deadline? Why weren't you yesterday?

Is it easier to get a townie lynched on a deadline bandwagon like yesterday buddy?

Um, yeah, deadline lynches aren't as good as lynches where you have more time, and that's WHY we need to start bandwagoning NOW. Actually, we should have started bandwagoning people like a week ago, but now's better then nothing.

[Yosarian2]

Why am I not voting? I can't decide whom to vote for right now. I was going to vote Mizzy, but I've seen other things today that make me think differently. It's not an anti-town move necessarily to not vote.

In this situation, I think it is anti-town to not vote, yeah. Figure out who you think is most likely to be scum, and put a vote on them. If it's a tie between two or three people, then vote for one of them and be willing to change your mind.
[/quote]

In this situation, I do think it is anti-town to not be voting right now, although since almost everyone is doing it it's not really a huge black mark against you at the moment. Basically, look back at the game, figure out who you think is most likely to be scum, and vote for that person. Give an explination if you can, or vote on gut if you can't. If it's a tie between two or three people, vote for one of them.

Basically, we really need to be focusing right now on figuring out who we want to lynch today. That needs to be the focus. And in order to do that, people have to start taking positions.

If nothing else, if all we're doing is the free-floating vauge type of discussion that's characterised most of today, then that makes it a lot easier for scum to hide, since they don't really need to commit to anything.

Continue your discussion with Mizzy about the Capi lynch if you want, but you also need to start trying to figure out who you, personally, think needs to die today.

The reason we still have plenty of time is the fact that the deadline mechanic just means we have to talk in order to not no-lynch. We can make this day as long as we want it to be by talking.

We can try, but that seems like a real gamble to me to count on us being able to do that indefinatly. What happens when just too many people happen to not get online on some random Sunday? Then we randomally no-lynch, and we start off tommorow in exactally the same place, with exactally the same information, but one less good guy and possibly with less chances to lynch the scum because we wasted one.

Towns that accidently no-lynch (basically, that just fail to lynch) generally seem to do very poorly from that point on in my experence; they get demoralized, people start posting less, the game starts to seem pointless to everyone, and it's basically a downhill slide from there into an ignoramous "scum won because town couldn't get their act together" type of loss. That's been my experence in the past; look at how the town completly fell apart in Lights Out II after failing to lynch one of the days for example.

I understand that we're probably going to go into "extra innings" again today, and that's ok, but we don't want to stay in that precarious state for too long, we certanly don't want to try and count on our ability to stay in that state for long.

[Yosarian2]

Huh, I thought I deleated one of those, I didn't mean to say that first idea twice, heh. Oh well, you get the idea.

[Rotten Snitch]

I was in agreement with the reasoning for the Capri lynch but am against your motives. I did not know the alignment of Capri and when I agreed that he should be more active it was a truthful comment. I did not place my vote because I did not believe he was scum 100%. I do not know the reasons for his inactivity but it did seem as though he was avoiding the majority.

What I am attacking you for is the deadline wagon you want day 2. Everyone else has discussed the mechanics of the deadline and all have agreed that as long as we have conversation, then there is no reason to rush a band wagon. I feel as if we rush a bandwagon then we will be stuck in the same situation as day 1.

You can say "There was one thing that could have prevented a Capri lynch, and that would have been Capri defending himself" Well Capri defending himself does not mean he will not be lynched, you were using that as an excuse to join the wagon. You joined an easier bandwagon and now are pushing for the same thing.

Let me ask you this: if you start a wagon on me and I defend myself will you continue to push it? Or are these just empty words to defend yourself from yesterday?

It's the weekend and I will not be as active but will be available

[Y]

If I'm not mistaken, deadline kicks in in less than 24 hours (It's actually the 19th already were I am).

I agree with Yos that we should at least try progressing somewhere.

Vote Skruffs.

Enough reasons were mentioned already.

[Zindaras]

I am not upset, specifically, that it was a mislynch...mislynches happen. Hell, I've caused a couple in past games just by being an over-zealous townie. They suck, but they happen, and a mislynch is better than a no-lynch. What upsets me about the Capri lynch was that most of the people on the wagon specifically said that Capri was not their top suspect, or even a suspect at all, and that they wanted a lynch in general because they freaked out about the deadline mechanism. I am hoping that we can break from that in the future and lynch those we think are scummiest, not the ones we think we can get lynched just to keep days moving.

But you've put pretty much everyone who bothers you according to this low on your list, that's what bothers me.

I said I would when I have more time. I am busy at work but I don’t want people thinking I am neglecting this game.

That was the first real thing you've said all day, Rotton Snitch, you only did it in response to pressure about your lack of contrabution, and you were incredibly vauge about it. If you think Skruffs is scum, could you explain why? Same with Mizzy or Zindy. What have they done that makes you think they're likely to be scum, exactally?

Yos I have been meaning to post but it is really hard to follow the thread with the constant battling going on between Mizzy, Zindy, and Skruffs. This is pinging my scumdar the most is what seems to be the distancing that is going on. The three of them have been bickering all game and it has really been useless posts and logic that none of the others are biting. It is really making it look like they are doing this on purpose. I will not make quotes because I am at work and it will get really lengthy. The beginning had Skruffs and Zindy fighting about Meta which did not result in anything. It did not even in the slightest way contribute to Capri’s lynch. Mizzy and Skruffles get into a lot after that and then Skruffles accuses the Zindy Mizzy buddying up which set her off. I think this is all a gambit to isolate these three and confuse the rest of us. All of the votes with the exception of these three are from other peoples observations and suspicions which means no one is really reading what they say and thinking “hey ya got a point Skruffs ….vote mizzy or zindy or vice versa” With the amount of posts coming from them it will be hard for us to go through and sort out the Bull poop from the scum tells from the scum hunting. I have been meaning to make a nice post like this one with posts and quotes and such but I do not have the patience to wade through then endless posts to make my points.

I have the bad trait of not being able to give up arguments, even when I know I've won/lost them. Quite frankly, as long as Skruffs is going to continue throwing crap at me, I'm going to point it out, if only because I need to figure out if Skruffs is actually scum.

Skruffs:

Says his justification for voting/being on the Capri wagon is information gathering and to keep from having a mislynch. Doesn't mention finding him to be scum that I can find.

My justification is that if someone isn't lynched, we don't get information.
Capricious was at three, the person I was voting was at three. I changed to Capricious to put him at 4.

That is my justification: I am trying to get a day one lynch when we have to fight every 24 hours to be able to do that and some people are blithely stalling or trying to entail a nolynch.

You are right. I thought Andycaca was more likely scum than Capricious. I didn't really think Capricious was scum. However, as uninformed town, I am not going to say, like you did, the equivalent of "Let's keep all suspicion on only two people and criticize other people for branching away from that, and then say that this person is town and criticize people for not going in other directions" because I recall you being suspicious of me for attacking Zindaras when Capricious and Rotten Snitch were the 'main targets' of the day.

Yes, I Thought Capricious was town, but it would be stupid of me to assume I know enough about Capricious to be able ot confirm he is town and to give up the only chance I, as town, had of getting the ability to kill scum just because I Wasn't sure that someone was scum. Plus, he was self voting.

You can't help focus attention on a player and then at the last moment turn around and say "People settled for a mislynch" when it's on the player you were trying to help get more and more suspicion on.

Vote stands.

So, this stuff:

(Incidentally, Mizzy's scumbuddy zindaras is not voting).

You have made it abundantly clear (to me) that you have a vested interest in protecting zindaras, over other players. Why?

Mizzy and (zind) are scum, but would prefer to lynch mito help case on zind

Can we lynch Mizzy?

Mizzy is SCUM. D: SCUM I TELL YOU LYNCH THE BETCH!!! If not today than tomorrow.

Indicates that you felt both Mizzy and I were sure scum. You're saying you felt Andy was mores supicious than Capri. You voted your

fourth

(at least) suspect (and you've also said that you only think there is three scum) over three others, of which you are supposedly

sure

that one of them is scum.

You just keep whining that you "had to do it" and there would've been a no lynch. That is not true, as I've already pointed out before (but you've been ignoring that. But, hey, ignorance is bliss, no?). We've made the post requirement under deadline every single time. There was absolutely no reason to expect us to be unable to start a bandwagon on someone else.

If you tried

.

But you didn't. You never even tried to get something started on Mizzy. Sure, you posted some crap about her being scum, but it all ended there. You did absolutely nothing to get the lynch you wanted.