Open 65 - Mini Love (Over!) before 578

[Albert B. Rampage]

None.

[farside22]

All that time for my death. Bah

[dahill1]

Korts and Jex...hmm...

Vote Jex

for me, top suspects are either Korts or Seth
i'm leaning towards Korts atm, but i'm waiting until he posts the case against Seth to see what he thinks

[Jex]

More to come later as I don't have much time to post right now but here's my starting thoughts:

Top of my scum list: Sethaniel, dahill, korts - will explain in a bit.

I'd also like to do a read of Flameaxe and Silence. My guess is that at least one of the scum were on the opposing wagon of ABR (Flameaxe and Sethaniel) and then Silence didn't vote which seems odd to me.

Sorry for the vague messages but I will return with more detail and insight.

[dahill1]

wait flameaxe is in this game?
i seriously forgot because he hasnt posted in about 2 weeks

[ThAdmiral]

Vote Count:

Sethaniel - 2

(Korts, Babygirl)

Korts - 1

(Elderad)

Jex - 1

(ABR)

Not Voting -

(Everyone else)

With 10 alive, it is 6 to lynch

Prodding Flameaxe.

[Korts]

PBPA on Seth.

Confirming post.
Post 1:

ABR, do you have a reason for liking Jex? If you can give me a good one, I'll vote for her.

Probably joke post, but still makes me a bit uneasy, the way he's open to negotiation about a random vote.

Post 2:

Ah, wait. So you like her personally, not like her as a candidate for lynch.

Or, you believe people who think like you do should be lynched.

Which is it, ABR? do you want me to vote for Jex?

Still trying to sell his vote.

Post 3: joke post.

Post 4 is in reply to this:

unvote vote sethaniel I don't like the fact that you are looking for answers instead of creating your theories and ideas. You get a double vote from due to the fact that you're asking ABR for answers of all people.

OMGUS Jex. I'm just talking.

Calls valid accusations OMGUS. Doesn't reply to accusations.

Post 5:

Fine, scorn my affection. See if I care.

vote ABR

Oh, I guess I do care. . .

Blatant OMGUS without any reason to it. (ABR voted Seth in the post before quoted)

Post 6:

@Elderad

Incidentally, my question to ABR ("do you feel lucky?") was kinda serious, but I don't want an answer anymore.

unvote
vote Seth

for asking ABR where to place your vote. It's trying to absolve yourself of responsibility for your actions.

So, it's okay for you to ask questions regarding voting, but not for me? We're both going the same place with those questions.

Misrepresentation. Eldarad's question was nowhere near about the same thing as Seth's. While Seth asked ABR to tell him where to put his vote, eldarad's question, as far as I gather, wasn't even related to voting.

In general: I wasn't

necessarily

going to just vote whatever ABR said. I wanted to see what his response would be. Did he have any particular reason to vote for anyone, or was he just trying to bait someone into arguing with him, so he could push for a lynch? His response turned out to be voting for me, without giving any reason at all.

Two things. Bolded part: acknowledges that he's open to advice on where to put his vote, basically letting others do the scumhunting for him. Second, hypocrite. Seth didn't give reason for his OMGUS, either.

Post 7:

Defense of my actions:

Newbie. Stupid newbie. Check my join date.

Plays newbie card.

I really did just want to see what response would come of it. ABR keeps insistently making "I love Jex" posts, which is a little weird. Obviously, I didn't think people would use it as a reason to lynch me.

A lot of people were saying a lot of stupid things

,

and no one seems to have singled them out for death.

(Specifically,

elderad admits he was kind of serious in asking ABR about his vote

, then jumps on the BW to lynch me.)

Again, bolded part: I don't see where eldarad's question was related to voting. Also, pointing fingers (italic part) and some bullshit (underlined), because, in fact, farside and Qman had also been questioned about some actions, the only difference being that they had defended themselves.

Well, if I die, when I'm proven townie, I hope it helps you find the real scum.

Premature claim(L-3), also pretty obvious one. I'm thinking with this setup, everyone would claim townie. And emphasises the newbie card.

Post 8 is just a "giving up" post, in my eyes. Outraged at ABR for his scumhunting technique, confirm claim.

Post 9 is at me saying he expected me to give him a free pass.

Well, that's about it. My points against him are basically 1) the selling of the random vote to ABR, 2) the calling of valid arguments OMGUS, 3) OMGUSing himself without any said reason, 4) gross misrepresentation and hypocrisy, and 5) not being willing to defend himself with valid arguments.

[eldarad]

Yeah, but Korts, how many joke votes are reasonable?
At what point does the joking become an excuse to avoid posting content?
Also I find self-voting, even as a random vote, to be scummy. I notice Jex self-voted too, you'll see that I voted for her.

You're wrong about Yoshi being pressured in my absence. I was the first to vote him, and

other than questioning him about his belief of the ABR-claim

, relatively little attention was on him.

That questioning was leading somewhere, and Yoshi wasn't handling the attention well at all. I agree that you put the first vote on, but to claim that there was no pressure is wrong.

I was questioning, through this, again, the credibility of ABR's claim. Also, I was pretty annoyed by Yoshi's lame way of twisting words.

Hmm. You answered something directed towards me on my behalf, which I don't like.

I agreed to lead the Seth wagon because I find him most suspicious after Yoshi. And I have a mouth of my own, and a brain attached to it, I will never defend myself with "ABR told me to."

Yeah, but this is setting up the Day 2 lynch on Day 1 without reference to any information we gain from the lynch and NK. Why would you do that?
What's more, you followed through with this plan, and I have no doubt that Seth would be on more votes than he is on now if I hadn't intervened and called you up on this.

I'll let Seth respond to your case before commenting on it.

[Korts]

That questioning was leading somewhere, and Yoshi wasn't handling the attention well at all. I agree that you put the first vote on, but to claim that there was no pressure is wrong.

That questioning eventually lead to Yoshi suddenly changing his opinion, but at the point of my comeback, it wasn't looking like it would lead anywhere. The argument at that point looked like a stalemate. Yes, there may have been some pressure on him to acknowledge that ABR may not certainly be the doc, but it wasn't considerable pressure.

Hmm. You answered something directed towards me on my behalf, which I don't like.

I admit that I answered it, and that it was directed at you. That I can't defend. But the point I made while answering it was part of the case on Yoshi.

Yeah, but this is setting up the Day 2 lynch on Day 1 without reference to any information we gain from the lynch and NK. Why would you do that?

This is setting up a Day 2

bandwagon

that we can gain information from. I don't think we gain much information from yesterday's lynch, correct me if I'm wrong. And the NK doesn't help much, either. I mean, apart from the early D1 argument between farside and Qman, farside didn't pick a lot of fights. If I had thought differently, I wouldn't have started Day 2 with the Seth wagon.

[silence]

Why is ABR suddenly voting Jex when yesterday he wanted us to lynch Sethaniel after Yoshi?? His play makes no sense to me but apparently we still have to trust him if the real doctor doesn't come out.

About Sethaniel: what's the point of a vanilla townie claim? Shouldn't it make us only more interested in killing him - it doesn't prove that he isn't scum but at least he is not a powerrole...

[dahill1]

Why is ABR suddenly voting Jex when yesterday he wanted us to lynch Sethaniel after Yoshi?? His play makes no sense to me but apparently we still have to trust him if the real doctor doesn't come out.

About Sethaniel: what's the point of a vanilla townie claim? Shouldn't it make us only more interested in killing him - it doesn't prove that he isn't scum but at least he is not a powerrole...

ABR plays strangely. Also, I think I've said this before, but just because he might be the doc (or even if he was confirmed) doesn't mean he is 100% correct about who he says is scum, so we don't have to always trust him. The vanilla townie claim could mean
1) He's telling the truth and actually is a vanilla townie.
2) He's lying scum and doesn't want to claim a power role.
3) He's lying town and is claiming vanilla in order to keep his power role secret.
And I'm not against a Seth lynch, but just because he claims townie doesn't mean we should lynch him.

[silence]

[ Also, I think I've said this before, but just because he might be the doc (or even if he was confirmed) doesn't mean he is 100% correct about who he says is scum, so we don't have to always trust him.

Sorry, bad wording on my part. By 'trust him' I meant only 'not lynch him', obviously a doc doesn't have any secret information.

[Korts]

Let's do something, already. I'd like Seth to reply to my post, and I also want to ask eldarad and dahill if they have any questions for me.

[Sethaniel]

@Korts: I wasn't "expecting" you to "give me a free pass." I don't even really know what you mean by that. I thought it was good play, the way you went after Yoshi. Voting me because you promised ABR you would is a stupid reason that doesn't help the town at all. So, I'm glad to see you gave the town a nice PBPA of why you think I'm scum.

A few things regarding the vanilla claim:
Wasn't Yoshi the first one to say it was a bad thing for me to claim vanilla?
Why isn't anyone discussing ABR's doc claim? Wait, farside mentioned it, before the NK.
I think it's pretty well assumed at the beginning of each game that everyone is tacitly claiming vanilla townie.

I thought there was a very good chance I would be lynched. From what I've seen of ABR's play, it seemed like he would follow through on his threat to harm the town unless he got his way. Since I am on the town's side, I don't want to see that happen. I'm not going to vote myself, or quit the game in frustration, but I will do anything I can to try and show that he was wrong.

Okay- now:

this is setting up the Day 2 lynch on Day 1 without reference to any information we gain from the lynch and NK.

Total agreement here.

Why why why if I were scum, would I kill farside?

I voted for Q-man because I did not see his comment as a joke when I'm trying to promote discussion. I felt his vote against me was a reach at nothing and voted for him because his comment made no sense. How do you know if he was joking? I was trying to promote discussion instead of the random BW comments going on and he just off shoots at the hip for a first comment and vote I found it odd coming from him.

I read Sethaniel comments and I felt he was fishing for information. It was his question about what Albert liked about Jex that through me.

Here is one problem I had which was with dahil.

Quote:
oops sorry everyone i had thought she was asking ABR why he claimed..but yeah Seth claiming is definitely scummy when he's only at L-4. he had no need to claim right then


dahill1 wrote:
it wasn't necessary for ABR to claim so i'm not going to automatically believe it, of course. he just did it to prove a point, but which really doesn't prove anything because even if he was the doc he couldn't know anyone's alignment but his own. however, this doesn't really make me any more or less suspicious of ABR because this is how he always is


Why is ABR okay to claim with the same number of votes against him the Seth?

Yoshi here is the problem about 3 times now you have mentioned a counterclaim. The problem is if Albert is scum he is trying to get the doc to out himself so he could be claiming to do such. For you to keep pressing that point sounds more like you are looking to see if Albert is telling the truth and scum will take care of him if they believe he is the doctor. Your comments about taking the easy way out without realizing what people are saying looks like a pissed off scum who got caught instead of a town person who made a mistake.

Vote: Yoshi.

Seriously Albert did you really need to claim that early. Shame on you.
_________________

Farside did vote for me at one point, but also expressed suspicions of Qman and dahill. Farside even called out ABR for his Day One doc claim.

If I were scum, farside was no threat to me. I had nothing to gain by killing her, and unlike ABR or Korts, she didn't seem convinced I was scum.

The town needs to consider farside's death. It's highly unlikely the scum chose her randomly. Who profits by removing farside from the game? Why her, instead of the claimed doc?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Korts was right.

Unvote, vote Sethaniel

Discussing night kills, WIFOM, you've done did it this time Sethaniel. Lynch the scummy bastard guys.

[Sethaniel]

So, in your opinion, discussing night kills is scummy?

[eldarad]

The town needs to consider farside's death. It's highly unlikely the scum chose her randomly. Who profits by removing farside from the game? Why her, instead of the claimed doc?

Hmm. This is actually quite scummy. As ABR says, this is WIFOM and no good can come from it. However, I'm just not prepared to accept that we're owning this game so easily.

So, in your opinion, discussing night kills is scummy?

Yes. In particular, using the NK from last night as evidence that you can't possibly be scum is very scummy.

This is setting up a Day 2 bandwagon that we can gain information from. I don't think we gain much information from yesterday's lynch, correct me if I'm wrong. And the NK doesn't help much, either. I mean, apart from the early D1 argument between farside and Qman, farside didn't pick a lot of fights. If I had thought differently, I wouldn't have started Day 2 with the Seth wagon.

So how is setting up a Day 2 wagon in advance beneficial to anyone?
I agree that Yoshi's lynch wasn't the most informative but that doesn't justify setting up lynches - or bandwagons or even just the agenda - a Day in advance.
Why, exactly, did you do that? How does the town benefit from knowing that you are going to lead a bandwagon Day 2? Does the town benefit more than the mafia? How so?

[Sethaniel]

Seth wrote:
So, in your opinion, discussing night kills is scummy?

Yes.

the NK doesn't help much, either. I mean, apart from the early D1 argument between farside and Qman, farside didn't pick a lot of fights.

It's okay for Korts to discuss the NK, apparently.

[eldarad]

You missed out the crucial part of my quote there.

In particular, using the NK from last night as evidence that you can't possibly be scum is very scummy.

See?

[Korts]

Seth, please don't use my words in a way they were clearly not intended to be used. You're misrepresenting me, and making a rather sloppy job about it. Compare quotes.

Why why why if I were scum, would I kill farside?

...

[lots of quotes from farside]

...

If I were scum, farside was no threat to me. I had nothing to gain by killing her, and unlike ABR or Korts, she didn't seem convinced I was scum.

On the one hand we have the WIFOM argument concerning the NK.

the NK doesn't help much, either. I mean, apart from the early D1 argument between farside and Qman, farside didn't pick a lot of fights.

On the other hand we have an argument against necroing an essentially dead discussion, a discussion which leads, if you take into account farside's D1 play and the state of the discussion at that point, to nothing except WIFOM arguments.

How are the two quotes similar? Both revolve around the topic of NK's. But they're not about the same thing, I gather.

So how is setting up a Day 2 wagon in advance beneficial to anyone?
I agree that Yoshi's lynch wasn't the most informative but that doesn't justify setting up lynches - or bandwagons or even just the agenda - a Day in advance.
Why, exactly, did you do that? How does the town benefit from knowing that you are going to lead a bandwagon Day 2? Does the town benefit more than the mafia? How so?

Setting up a Day 2 wagon may not be beneficial to town, but it isn't any more beneficial to the mafia, either. At least, I don't see how it might be harmful.

[eldarad]

If it wasn't beneficial to anyone, why do it?
It strikes me as beneficial to scum as it immediately confines discussion to the wagon target (and, potentially, the wagoners I guess).
I also find it weird that, until very recently, ABR disowned the Sethwagon. I'm still trying to work out what that means.

In fact, ABR, why did you disown the Sethwagon at the start of the Day?

[Korts]

If it doesn't hurt anyone, why not do it, as long as I feel like it? You know, I presume, that we can go on like this for quite a long time.
It would be beneficial to scum if I would try to prevent any other wagon from happening. Competing wagons are by no means against my will.
The ABR thing interests me, too. I've never seen him play before, though, so I don't know whether he's always this erratic.

[Albert B. Rampage]

In fact, ABR, why did you disown the Sethwagon at the start of the Day?

So I could see the logic behind Kort's reasoning.

[dahill1]

wow Seth has just been bumped up way higher on the scummy list
also, this isn't based on anything concrete, but this seems kind of forced. mainly the first sentence

The ABR thing interests me, too. I've never seen him play before, though, so I don't know whether he's always this erratic.

[Korts]

Well, I can't really reply to that, dahill. English isn't my first language, maybe that's why you feel it's forced.