Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[Shoshin]

Random, why do you think Creature's town?

[Randomnamechange]

Random, why do you think Creature's town?

i don't particularly anymore and didnt at any pint. i just thought tpf was more likely scum and them being svs was unlikely earlier but now that they've apparently given up less so.

[Scioness Sajj]

re: Anka because that will be faster probably

oh wow, took me good 4 rereads to figure out the progression thing but i see it now. i agree with 1 and 3, can't really judge 2. i will have to iso her with other people but i do think that Shoshin could be scum with por/gif (i'm basing that on Sho's opinions on por).

thanks for the read

[Scioness Sajj]

btw creature is L-2

[Scioness Sajj]

i will posting this in paragraphs, probably easier to read

it looks like you are interacting with people to the point you can get a scumread on them and you cling to that.

That's not what I'm doing - see my interaction with Nancy, for example - so I don't know why that's the sense you're getting. I've tried interacting with the players who are here but it's not going well and I can't figure out what the problem is.

I don't think a conf/obv town that has a strong town read on you is a good example of interactions.
wrt your scum read on me - you've asked Nancy about her read on me (that was 20 or so pages ago), she was leaning town. you obviously don't agree with her reasons to townread me, you didn't ever try to talk her into scum reading me or ask her to be more specific what's so town about me. you only asked for information but did nothing with them. beside suspending your scumread on me for unknown reason, you did remember to highlight it's only temporary though
I can't really tell you why people your interaction don't go well. I don't think it's really that bad, besides worst nobody really is denying you anything. (and again, i have pushed you to talk things out with worst but you dropped as soon as you were supposed to go into specific so)

I'm trying to make things happen and to inject some adrenaline into what feels (or felt) like a toxic gamestate, I'm engaging players, asking questions, trying to talk about reads, trying to refine reads, but instead I'm getting a lot of hostility and aggression or simply getting ignored.

Eh I didn't really get a feeling you are doing those things.
I'm not sure why you put so much emphasis on hostility/aggression, from my experience (i've played only 4 games so i might have just been unlucky) that happens really often in games. if it makes you feel better i have also experienced worst's uncooperativeness first hand. it super frustrating when you don't know how to go around it.

[Scioness Sajj]

I tried discussing reads with you - I asked you some questions, I tried engaging you about the game - but instead of talking with me about things you responded sort of curtly and soon after you voted me. Alright, great. We didn't get very far. We didn't reach any sort of understanding about anything. No discussion. Just me engaging you, trying to discuss stuff, and then you voting me after barely putting any effort into discussing anything with me. It feels like I'm trying to figure things out, trying to engage with players, asking them why I'm wrong about things, but for some reason it's not going anywhere. Not much I can do about that. There's only so much a single player can do.

That's fairly good point. Well, the first part. Rolling dice post was a joke, i assumed that should have been obvious, i'm sorry that it upset you, but few post before i have mentioned that i wasn't caught up and was only shitposting in the meantime. I have explained that I also said I would get back to you with more serious stuff but I forgot I promised that and you didn't remind so here we are.

I voted you most likely because:
a) it felt like a good time to vote
b) you've said something that just got a reaction from me like that
c) i never stopped scumreading you really
It was either one, two or all three of those, i don't remember.

I don't really feel like discussing stuff with you when I feel like you have shown me enough. (tbh with you, i have been engaging some with you d1 and you have backed off) (and to be fair simply asking about reads isn't really engaging; i believe my curtly responses left enough space to engage further)

Asking people were you are wrong is like assuming that you are wrong, idk.

[Scioness Sajj]

It's the same thing with the worst. I try interacting with the worst but he refuses to answer any of my questions or discuss the things I want to discuss with him - how am I supposed to react to that?

Let it go? Town should but won't always works together, you can't force people to play like you'd want them to. No answer is also an answer, thought I don't think that's a good strategy.
I think you have only asked him about the townread and some explanation about you. i have tired to solve the former for you but you abandoned the idea.

I tell him that it's making me paranoid about his alignment and ask him kindly to interact with me so that he can help me townread him and we can work on refining reads - he continues to ignore me. I'm doing my best not to let my paranoia get the best of me but when I'm confronted with a choice between suspecting perpetual lurkers or the guy who posts more than anyone else but doens't seem to actually be saying much plus can't even spend a second to explain one of his reads to me or to engage with me about the game, what am I supposed to do? I scumread that player because I find what he's doing pro-scum in effect.

yeah what you talk about is perhaps antitown. but you can keep lurkers and hm in his poe. like i'm not really sure what do you expect me here to say to you. i see you are trying to talk with other people about him and i think that's the way to go.

[Scioness Sajj]

I point out something in Random's posts that were pinging me, his reaction to Nico - but instead of walking me through his thorugh process he immediatley gets defensive and calls my post a "misrep." Okay, great. Now he's calling me scum and saying all my stances are random when they're not. What am I supposed to do on that front? Townread the guy? I think it'd be weird if I weren't concerned about the way he responded to me. I reread his posts trying to figure out what I can, trying to see if there's any hints of town, but all I'm seeing is scum - so I try talking with my townreads about him (e.g. Nancy) because I'm trying to figure shit out and to get input from others. But apparently that's me "clinging" to a scumread. Okay...

well, i have talked to you about Random misrep thing. it doesn't seem to have any impact on you, that's why i think you are clinging. i think something very similar is also random's reasoning but don't quote me on that.
it also feels like that with your read on my slot.

[GuyInFreezer]

btw I'll come back to this and read properly tomorrow.
Try not to end the day until I do so

I'm totally not stalling the creature lynch, I promise
I think that slot can go.

[Scioness Sajj]

why is someone town reading me such a big deal

i don't think anybody in this game justified their reads on me

It matters because scum tend to throw townreads out without thinking about whether it's merited - usually when they know a player is town or when they're trying to manipulate townies into reading their partner as town - and then when they're questioned about it they struggle to explain the read because it never had any basis in the actual game.

Nancy had reasons to townread you when questioned, so yeah, comparing Nancy to the worst, Nancy's town, the worst is blah.

do you think knowing why the worst is town reading me will clear both of us?

[Scioness Sajj]

and by that i mean obv town status till death do us part.

[Scioness Sajj]

Mod v/la for the weekend

(i may be around or disappear completly, we will see)

[Nancy Drew 39]

well yeah it's good for scum if it goes through

the problem is it's DOA

it's never going through

so there's no point in scum pushing it

They don’t need the lynch to actually go through,

all they really need is enough votes to prevent a Creature lynch from happening

. What part of we need 8 to lynch are you not getting?

that's never going to work unless it causes a no lynch

Hello? No lynch is great for scum, why the hell do you think the worst is pushing so hard for Creature lynch? *bangshead a thousand more times*

And FYI, wtf do you think happened d1? I misunderstood the that you needed a maj to have a deadline lynch because there is no way Creature would not have gotten lynched on MU.

The whole derailming and distraction to push other wagons than Creature, is precisely what’s going to sink town if we don’t get a d2 lynch.

[Shoshin]

i will posting this in paragraphs, probably easier to read

it looks like you are interacting with people to the point you can get a scumread on them and you cling to that.

That's not what I'm doing - see my interaction with Nancy, for example - so I don't know why that's the sense you're getting. I've tried interacting with the players who are here but it's not going well and I can't figure out what the problem is.

I don't think a conf/obv town that has a strong town read on you is a good example of interactions.
wrt your scum read on me - you've asked Nancy about her read on me (that was 20 or so pages ago), she was leaning town. you obviously don't agree with her reasons to townread me, you didn't ever try to talk her into scum reading me or ask her to be more specific what's so town about me. you only asked for information but did nothing with them. beside suspending your scumread on me for unknown reason, you did remember to highlight it's only temporary though
I can't really tell you why people your interaction don't go well. I don't think it's really that bad, besides worst nobody really is denying you anything. (and again, i have pushed you to talk things out with worst but you dropped as soon as you were supposed to go into specific so)

I'm trying to make things happen and to inject some adrenaline into what feels (or felt) like a toxic gamestate, I'm engaging players, asking questions, trying to talk about reads, trying to refine reads, but instead I'm getting a lot of hostility and aggression or simply getting ignored.

Eh I didn't really get a feeling you are doing those things.
I'm not sure why you put so much emphasis on hostility/aggression, from my experience (i've played only 4 games so i might have just been unlucky) that happens really often in games. if it makes you feel better i have also experienced worst's uncooperativeness first hand. it super frustrating when you don't know how to go around it.

Re: Nancy - go back and look at how I came to townread Nancy - it was back when she wasn't obt town to anyone.

Re: convincing Nancy you're scum - I'd never try convincing anyone of something unless I had a pretty high degree of certainty about it - in particular because I like people to form their own views without my influence because that makes it more likely for them to catch things I'm missing plus it makes it more easy for me to read them - towns already struggle enough to avoid confirmation biasing and I hate adding to that unless I'm really sure about what I'm saying (e.g. with Random).

Re: interactions and hostility - I'm new to this site but I can tell you the town meta here is very weak compared with others in large part because towns don't work together - if people stopped trying to be the lone hero and instead put some faith in the collective intelligence of town, we'd get a lot more done.

It's good to know you're new - that would explain why you're paranoid about me - the experienced players (particularly Reality) should know better.

[Shoshin]

It's the same thing with the worst. I try interacting with the worst but he refuses to answer any of my questions or discuss the things I want to discuss with him - how am I supposed to react to that?

Let it go? Town should but won't always works together, you can't force people to play like you'd want them to. No answer is also an answer, thought I don't think that's a good strategy.
I think you have only asked him about the townread and some explanation about you. i have tired to solve the former for you but you abandoned the idea.

I tell him that it's making me paranoid about his alignment and ask him kindly to interact with me so that he can help me townread him and we can work on refining reads - he continues to ignore me. I'm doing my best not to let my paranoia get the best of me but when I'm confronted with a choice between suspecting perpetual lurkers or the guy who posts more than anyone else but doens't seem to actually be saying much plus can't even spend a second to explain one of his reads to me or to engage with me about the game, what am I supposed to do? I scumread that player because I find what he's doing pro-scum in effect.

yeah what you talk about is perhaps antitown. but you can keep lurkers and hm in his poe. like i'm not really sure what do you expect me here to say to you. i see you are trying to talk with other people about him and i think that's the way to go.

I didn't abandon the idea of speaking with the worst - I made a post directed at him about you based on what you said and he didn't reply. You think I need to be more specific? I want to know why he townread you back in the earlier part of the game when I scumread you - and I want to know what he thinks of your play since then. I can't get more specific than that. He's the one who townread you...

In terms of his play, the problem is that I've seen scum do what he's doing a lot - they throw out a townread on someone who is actually town without thinking about why the player is town, then when they get questioned about it they have no clue how to respond so they ignore the question hoping it goes away without ever having to answer.

[Shoshin]

I point out something in Random's posts that were pinging me, his reaction to Nico - but instead of walking me through his thorugh process he immediatley gets defensive and calls my post a "misrep." Okay, great. Now he's calling me scum and saying all my stances are random when they're not. What am I supposed to do on that front? Townread the guy? I think it'd be weird if I weren't concerned about the way he responded to me. I reread his posts trying to figure out what I can, trying to see if there's any hints of town, but all I'm seeing is scum - so I try talking with my townreads about him (e.g. Nancy) because I'm trying to figure shit out and to get input from others. But apparently that's me "clinging" to a scumread. Okay...

well, i have talked to you about Random misrep thing. it doesn't seem to have any impact on you, that's why i think you are clinging. i think something very similar is also random's reasoning but don't quote me on that.
it also feels like that with your read on my slot.

I dropped my read on your slot, in case you didn't notice.

As for Random, you said that you think I misrepped him. I know for a fact I didn't because the term misrep actually implies a scum intent, which I don't have - as for the facts, it's undeniable that Random was very hostile towards Nico - so there's no misrep. I understand that you don't think the hostility was scummy but I strongly disagree. The hostility was formed on D1 but it shoudln't have contineud into D2 the way it did.

[Shoshin]

why is someone town reading me such a big deal

i don't think anybody in this game justified their reads on me

It matters because scum tend to throw townreads out without thinking about whether it's merited - usually when they know a player is town or when they're trying to manipulate townies into reading their partner as town - and then when they're questioned about it they struggle to explain the read because it never had any basis in the actual game.

Nancy had reasons to townread you when questioned, so yeah, comparing Nancy to the worst, Nancy's town, the worst is blah.

do you think knowing why the worst is town reading me will clear both of us?

It's a start to clearing him. If he brings up really good points about you, then it clears you too, but that depends on the quality of the worst's reasoning.

[Shoshin]

oh wow, took me good 4 rereads to figure out the progression thing but i see it now.

Explain it to me.

[Shoshin]

Sajj is town after this page's posting.

[Nancy Drew 39]

Spoiler:

VOTE: the worst

VOTE: joral

I don't really think Joral is scum tbh

Why not?

VOTE: Reality

I don't

really

think Joral is scum

tbh

I bolded some of the language that pinged me. At this point, it made no sense from a town perspective to hesitantly defend Joral - literally none - and language like "really" and "tbh" suggests that Reality don't believe what they're saying themselves. And when questioned about it, Reality completely ignored me... So I'm happy with where my vote is.

this progression is not natural

the worst, what's your read on Reality? any reason I'm wrong about them?

faintly nullish badtown rn across the both heads

Why badtown rather than scum?

faintly nullish badtown rn across the both heads

Why badtown rather than scum?

dem reads

Yeah, they're pretty bad - but why is that town rather than scum?

this shift is not natural after the above

i don't really like 145. but since we are speaking is there anything else that you don't like about rc?

Their reads suck, they lack any sort of internal logic, and their play feels passive. You're probably right that I'm distant but don't take that as a scum-tell - I'm guessing it's because I don't know anyone so I'm relating to people as strangers, whereas most others here seem to have some history together.

this is independently scummy

If Reality's town, there's a certain degree of paranoia underlying Wheme's vote that feels very town. Like, why would scum Wheme alienate town Reality, the one player who reads Wheme as strong town?

this type of logic is what I'm reading in Shoshin's interactions towards us, plus there's this weird feeling that shoshin is already setting up for our townflip despite having no support for it happening

...I can't follow your thought process too well with some of these votes.

What don't you follow? I explained the vote on Reality but it's obvious nobody wants to pressure them so I'm voting my other suspect. What's confusing about the vote on Sajj? She posts lots of meaningless commentary and doesn't commit to anything.

"I'm not scummy, I swear! look! there's another person doing exactly the same thing as me!"

Look at my correct % in recent games. I'm done trying to convince you people. My record speaks for itself.

I don't think scum would boast about how great their reads usually are.

shoshin has never met the mod before

VOTE: the worst for an answer on why Sajj is town.

sweaty get off your high horse and go find actual scum

If you helped me out, then maybe I wouldn't vote you. But if you're going to obscure your alignment, then I'm going to assume it's because you're scum.

every other post in my ISO is transparent and conspicuously town motivated. if you get a stick up your ass abt one post which is VERY OBVIOUSLY hinting that I'm planning something with obscuring my read then I can only assume you're scum using an insanely stupid tunnel as a smokescreen.

I disagree. I still have no clue why you read Reality as "badtown" rather than "scum," and you've cluttered the game with tons of pointless posts. I liked your vote on Wheme and that was about it. I've seen scum do exactly what you've done in this game multiple times (including the whole "I'm not going to explain my reads yet because I have plans"), so if that's how you're going to play, I'm going to vote you until I have strong reason to believe you're town. I was hoping your explanation on Sajj would help me read you and her better... but I guess you don't want that?

weak

this is the type of trend I've been seeing in a lot of Shoshin's votes; there's a lot of making up reasons to fit a scumread that they decided to have without a whole lot of sound analysis behind it. read: their later worst/realitycheck scumreads, it's FULL of this

WhemeStar - leans town for pushing Creature/Random and because overall he seems to play without any concern for appearances in a way that's more likely to come from town than scum.

Joral - leans town because of his early play but hasn't posted enough to solidify a read.

Vartsun (Varsoon/Taly) - leans town because they haven't done anything to make me think otherwise plus early post seem aimed at sorting alignments.

ArcAngel9 - leans town, because of early negative utility claim, which I think is more likely to be town than scum motivated, and recent posting doesn't really make much sense from a scum perspective - it's the sort of crazy that's more likely to come from town than scum.

the three townreads on whemestar/joral/vartsun are all natural because they're correct. the townread on arcangel9 is jagged and more vague than the others despite having more words on it.

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

this team makes no sense

The Worst + Reality suspecting each other on D1 but coming into D2 100% convinced they're town? Makes sense as scum interactions.

Reality delaying the lynching of Creature? Makes sense as scum/scum.

Reality listing Random as possible scum but as soon as I point out that Random is scum Reality votes me for idiotic reasons and doesn't say anything about Random at all? Makes sense as scum/scum.

The Worst supporting Reality's vote on me while offering no comments on Random? Makes sense as scum/scum.

It actually makes too much sense that I'm worried it's wrong somewhere.

bad logic followed by a preemptive /out from seeing this through

I skipped a bunch of posts and didn't go through the whole ISO, but this should be enough to at least show what I'm trying to say regarding Shoshin-scum

1. Read trajectories make no sense
2. Her playstyle reads as significantly leaning towards stream of conscious; players with this style that roll scum have a tendency to want to make sure their thoughts can be seen as consistent, which is why there's a lot of weird justifications for her votes and thoughts that are just added on, like it's an afterthought
3. She is trying to look like she has solid stances, yet she also tries to give herself as much room as possible to change them if she needs to.

Now if you cross-reference it with my reads...

It makes a lot of sense for her to be scum with AA9
It makes sense for her to be scum with Creature
I could see her also being scum with TGPKAP
Somewhat possible scum with random (mainly true if a lot of the general reads in this game are correct, that would need to be verified first)
Not quite as likely scum with Renais/GIF

Shoshin + ArcAngel9 + (Creature/randommidget/GIF/TGPKAP)

it makes a lot of sense where I'm standing

Sorry, I don’t see this at all. What I see is a sincere villagery process leading to SOSME misguided conclusions. All this wall really convinces me of is how villagery the worst, Sajj are. I think you are reaching. I also fail to see Sho/Creature connection. And while Wheme isn’t currently in my POE, I’m very far from hardtown reading him. You are wrong about both Sho and random. I think the worst was probably right about you possibly being “bad town”, because you sound like you really believe all of the questionable conclusions you’re drawing. I think a) Sho was confused about the underground hood with you/worst/Sajj and drew erroneous conclusions az a result of that. b) While I still think you’re probably town, I don’t think Sho’s reasons for scumreading you are really that off the wall. Why? Simply because it is so damned important to have a maj lynch today, your “no info” anti-Creature push IS and should be highly suspect, solely based on that. The reason I’m townreading you is because I really feel you have actually confibiased and duped yourself and are earnestly and sincerely trying to make the rest of us drink the same koolade that you drank.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I've come around on Sajj. The fact that she read Reality's post 4 times trying to understand the progression point should clear her - scum don't do that sort of thing, and I don't think she's experienced enough to fake that sort of post.

[Shoshin]

Random, why do you think Creature's town?

i don't particularly anymore and didnt at any pint. i just thought tpf was more likely scum and them being svs was unlikely earlier but now that they've apparently given up less so.

I'd understand changing your mind about this, but saying you didn't at any point is hard to believe. It doesn't square with anything you've been saying/doing so far...

[Reality Check]

hi walls!

[the worst]

I'm not reading all this garbage

Anka what's your meta on bussing like?

[Reality Check]

Sorry, I don’t see this at all. What I see is a sincere villagery process leading to SOSME misguided conclusions. All this wall really convinces me of is how villagery the worst, Sajj are. I think you are reaching. I also fail to see Sho/Creature connection. And while Wheme isn’t currently in my POE, I’m very far from hardtown reading him. You are wrong about both Sho and random. I think the worst was probably right about you possibly being “bad town”, because you sound like you really believe all of the questionable conclusions you’re drawing. I think a) Sho was confused about the underground hood with you/worst/Sajj and drew erroneous conclusions az a result of that. b) While I still think you’re probably town, I don’t think Sho’s reasons for scumreading you are really that off the wall. Why? Simply because it is so damned important to have a maj lynch today, your “no info” anti-Creature push IS and should be highly suspect, solely based on that. The reason I’m townreading you is because I really feel you have actually confibiased and duped yourself and are earnestly and sincerely trying to make the rest of us drink the same koolade that you drank.

this is really feeling like necromancer all over again

except you're mostly obvtown instead of blatantly obvtown this time