NY 213 - Game Over!

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: uzuka VOTE:

[Hopkirk]

Fumiki' do you scum read screenplay yet?

[Hopkirk]

Pining for a scum lynch.
Happy with my vote.

[Hopkirk]

Can I get in on this?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: osuka

[Hopkirk]

Prove it.

[Hopkirk]

Creature didn't post pregame, hence is disengaged, hence is scum, right?

VOTE: JarJarDrinks for jumping on the osuka bandwagon.

Why is that bad?

VOTE: Osuka

[Hopkirk]

Bandwagons this early in day 1 seem to me more scummy than town, so thats where I put my vote. Makes it easier to "accidentally" lynch town.

It's what, L-13? You can't 'accidentally' get 8 more votes down. Even if you did, the fourth one wouldn't be explicitly bad there. Have you played any other large games?

almost that might be the shittiest attempt at a game starting post I’ve ever seen, I’m sorry

it’s like you’re trying to grasp at straws when, actually, there are no straws

The vote on A50 here looks missing.

VOTE: Creature

I'm fine with this vote.

Interested in hearing more.

@A50: Why is 38 the only one of my posts you said you disliked? Did you not dislike the others too?

[Hopkirk]

He quoted my post 6 instead of any other post and said he townread and scumread it, come on

I only read the bit with my name because I've played with him before.

Bandwagons this early in day 1 seem to me more scummy than town, so thats where I put my vote. Makes it easier to "accidentally" lynch town.

It's what, L-13? You can't 'accidentally' get 8 more votes down. Even if you did, the fourth one wouldn't be explicitly bad there. Have you played any other large games?

No, first large game here. Used to playing in smaller groups.

Does considering lynch requirements chane anything?

[Hopkirk]

Charles can be town.

VOTE: Creature

I'm fine with this vote.

Interested in hearing more.

He's Creature. He's not interested. His response to the wagon will be easily sortable. His flip could either support or disprove the Almost theory. What more evidence is needed?

If the almost thing is false jarjar is still scummy btw.

-Sortable after a few days- yeah I've heard this.
-Voting him immediately then saying 'oh it's fake' when he posts.
-Better method would be leave it a few days without interacting with him and then decide. Putting a wagon on him is more likely to make it sound fake.

I was voting your for the stupid BS stuff you were doing earlier, you could have ridden that out. But now you are super number 1 scum with a bullet.

I think you can do better than "stupid BS". How about "low life SoB"? Like, I started the game with the intention to have fin,. and I'm not gonna let a #@$% like you ruin that for me, so you are on my ignore list already. Over and out.

Stop TvTing.

I get that Texcat, but why sign up to play when you knew you had those coming down the pipe?

Good question.

Is it? Didn't sound like weeks of stuff, sounded like days of stuff in a month long game. Ramp fine, Tex minor dislike.

[Hopkirk]

Just some thoughts while I skimmed through; am not taking any of what I write seriously at this point but just want to put content on the table:

I plan on active lurking through D1 at least. This is a very large game, and my reads are traditionally sub-random in crowded D1s.

Can you explain what sub-random reads means?

How about this, nobody posts anything d1 and we don’t Lynch in case we end up voting a townie

Then we convince the mafia not to kill anyone and we call it a draw

I'm going to call an early SR on this. Some kind of combination of LAMIST and "haha let's do this anti-Town thing as a joke but no really."

You know, I kind of agree with this; not the lamist part but the jokes. It's RVS and it's the phase where people are making jokes and trolling but 52 just feels slightly, if not, a tiny bit forced.

Don't SR this post though because RVS is just an edgy phase in general; don't know many players here and SR'ing due to playstyle in RVS is stupid.

i mean what they say will vary, but I generally get called out as being scummy very early in the game by at least some of the players. Usually during rvs

A50 and his reads list is actually pretty fcking towny and am liking him as town already; not the reads but the effort he put in to make a pile of collective crap in one post. Don't think scum would put this much effort into something so early on just to draw attention to themselves unless scum A50 has balls of steel.

almost that might be the shittiest attempt at a game starting post I’ve ever seen, I’m sorry

it’s like you’re trying to grasp at straws when, actually, there are no straws

It's RVS; your attempt at jokes seems forced and you're acting like his reads list is serious.

Don't understand?

This is scum.

[Hopkirk]

It was just a random vote slinging with a not well thought out reason.

Why aren't you more proactive? This is a little beetlejuicy (showing up after someone mentions/attacks you a bit)

This is Town!Creature:

1- Town!Creature.
2- Town!Creature. (I wasn't in this)
3- Town!Creature.

And this is Scum!Him

1- Scum!Creature.
2- Scum!Creature.

Feel free to find more games and compare his play as either alignment to his play here then tell me the wagon on him is bad.

Like sure if he’s the same later on go for it

It’s been like 2 pages though

I think the biggest tell on creature was that after 2 votes on him, he didn't appear and say sorry guys, I have a busy schedule, but here is what I see right now. He just said, sorry, got a busy schedule, keep me alive to Day 2 and I will be more active, and then left again. Creature needs to go and then we can continue on with active town players the rest of the game.

How would you read him if he posted stuff now? Would you think it's legit, or say it's him posting because you've said that's what town him would do?

Almost is good.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Almost50 until I figure out what the hell you're doing

This is very unlike your tone in other games we've played and I'm not sure if you're just trying something new or if you're really as scummy as you're making yourself sound, and that's almost impossible to believe but as of yet I have no other explanation

Why's Almost your first (/almost only it looks like) priortiy to sort? Especially given you've admitted he'd be a hard sort for you.

Not getting on that Almost50 wagons. Looks like a lot of unnecessary votes there!!

So, my revised scum team is Creature+Android+Fumuki+Hopkirk+Mylo

Game solved!!

LOL, I liked your long post and this. Mixed feelings!!!

VOTE: Creature

Solely based on his inactivity. New policy, lynch all inactives

Why only creature? Easy pick?

VOTE: TheRampge

Can you expand on 'unnecesary'?

[Hopkirk]

Almost wagon is bad. Edo/Lal on it are the bad bits.
Odd that there's so much discussion of the Almost wagon but nothing about the Osuka wagon when they started the page at equal sizes.

VOTE: Lalendra person

A50 is obv town here

Whemestar is obv town here.

I kinda think Almost50 is town here lol?

VOTE: Edo

Yay more town.

[Hopkirk]

@Love: Why Lalandra town? Agree otherwise.

Fine. We will see. I'm fine with the day being me vs him for the lynch. An unofficial gladiator shot here. Vote one of us.

P-edit: EVERYONE knows (and a few explicitly said) that post #97 was a JOKEY ENTRANCE. Do I TR Pine "because he sounded town when he typed .confirm"??

It thus follows that #105 is a sarcastic response to Osuka taking my early reads too seriously.

Now if you look closer (back to #97 you'd see I only had ONE serious read (on Hopkirk). Why else would I state -within the post.. between brackets- it was a serious read if all other reads were also serious???

Last time we played didn't I pick on something you put in a joke post and you responded saying it was a joke post so all of it was non-serious even the bits that looked serious?

[Hopkirk]

Don't want to be on Osuka now. Tempted to go Asuka. Tempted to go a few other places (Rob, EDo, Pine, someone whose name I've forgotten).

VOTE: Lalandra
Lets sort stuff.

[Hopkirk]

Like

Post 1
Joke
Joke

Post 2
Joke
Serious
Joke

Reads as odd.

[Hopkirk]

How my mind works
-Start of d1 is to interact with people and form reads on them.
-I want to interact with Lalandra but nobody else does. No need to interact with Edo as there's a wagon which is a subsitute.
-Vote Lalandra.

[Hopkirk]

Edo sure is a super pure wagon so far.

I kinda think Almost50 is town here lol?

this post started off fine but the "lol" is scummy and so is the "?"

I thought it sounded newb town legitimate tonally.


The activity rate is oddly low for the game size.

[Hopkirk]

Forgot that I needed to post here.

What reminded you by the way?

You should post content rather than a naked vote. I'm assuming you're still online right now.

[Hopkirk]

Skimmed a bit. Not time to make a full post tonight. Should do tomorrow.
If I said I liked Ouska, I don't now.

[Hopkirk]

Starting a catch up.

sorry didn't realise it was two days. almost is town creature is probscum but i suppose he needs time to finish up rl things before we can tell for sure. kublai is a scumlean but it might just be unfamiliar play style

This is not engaging.

Tempted to go a few other places (Rob, EDo, Pine, someone whose name I've forgotten).

you should vote me am rearing to have a piece of someone since I've come back

Huh?

not sure how i feel about hopkirk. very up in the air right now, but i'm fairly sure that slot is either pr or scum.

a50 has been having a breakdown as of page 12. tops my lynch pool, along with aa9 and jarjar.

khan can be town for now

Ousuka is ew.

UNVOTE:

Sorry Ircher and everybody. 25 players and 13 pages already. Too much for me to keep up with and post any kind of intelligent analysis.

Ircher asked me to sign up as a favor and I did. There's a reason I don't play mafia. I am no good at mafia and I don't really enjoy it. I'll be over in the mish mash forum.

Please go ahead and replace me out.

this reads to me as someone that didnt want to roll scum but did.

Reads more town to me, but that might be because so many scum have been lurkers in my recent games. Scum seems more likely to stay in, or at least take longer than 2-3 days to sub out.

[Hopkirk]

So you know he usually doesn't do anything day 1, but can easily be spotted as scum if he continues his lurk on later days?

My last unfinished game w creature was a while ago but all I recall is not thinking his play is anything special.

Which is why I think it's shady that so many people are clamoring to keep votes off him. Like I'm not saying u people should be voting him but he's done nothing in this game to warrant a defense from anybody.

It's the scum/town comparative that's considered important. You need to have seen both (personally I've only skimmed his scum haven't finished a game vs it yet).

VOTE: mylo

dislike sajj

forgot to declare this before but v/la until friday please

Ew. Torn between the sukas right now.

Performer opening is eh. Conflicted on it.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: JarJarDrinks for jumping on the osuka bandwagon.

I see I'm gonna need an inhaler for this page.

Correction: I will need an inhaler for your one-line posts, creature.
-------

Did an ISO on scioness, vax, & wavemode:

scioness & vax keep defending creature - who has posted a little more on pgs like 16-18. Later vax makes what looks like an opportunistic vote on scioness, while she votes asuka.
wavemode naked votes osuka, votes texcat as a joke or rvs post?, votes the charles slot due to him asking a game setup question, does a prodge post.

Why are these bad interactions?

I agree with A50 about Creature, but am willing to give Creature the benefit of doubt for the moment. Sometimes people do just get busy with their real lives.

Not the texcat I used to know 2

You said this same thing the last game we played together and I was town then too.

Ew.

@Scion: why is Lalandra in your towns.

[Hopkirk]

JarJarDrinks(4) ~ Golden Robster, Myloninja13, Osuka, Vaxkiller

Robster is town. Mafia logic says one or more of these other numbnuts are scum.

VOTE: Osuka

Lotsa good folk on this wagon

Can you go over Town Rob. I don't feel strongly about him right now.

How my mind works
-Start of d1 is to interact with people and form reads on them.
-I want to interact with Lalandra but nobody else does. No need to interact with Edo as there's a wagon which is a subsitute.
-Vote Lalandra.

1) You say that I am one of the bad votes on the A50 wagon but never explained why, unless I missed it - can you do so now? Not sure why mine is different than the others.
2) I don't remember anyone saying they don't want to interact with me, but I'm here so interact away.

I will respond to this after reisoing you.

17. Andriod18+ (Scum. Forgetting to post "here" = already posting in the Scum PT)

If you were serious on this, we're on the same page.

I can see that but I read it more as forgetting that the mod required us to post in pre-game in addition to confirming privately, which is normally all that's required.

wtf page 6 is like trying to guess how many scum there are? What's the point?

I think it can be helpful when trying to determine associatives, do you not agree?
I guess it could also be someone going "hey look I'm not scum because I'm trying to figure out how many there are and if I was scum I'd already know!!!"

This is not a content heavy catch up.

[Hopkirk]

How my mind works
-Start of d1 is to interact with people and form reads on them.
-I want to interact with Lalandra but nobody else does. No need to interact with Edo as there's a wagon which is a subsitute.
-Vote Lalandra.

1) You say that I am one of the bad votes on the A50 wagon but never explained why, unless I missed it - can you do so now? Not sure why mine is different than the others.
2) I don't remember anyone saying they don't want to interact with me, but I'm here so interact away.

Ok, I did semi cover it in 276 like I thought.
You were 'engagin' with A50 in a way that doesn't look useful in helping you sort him at the expense of sorting other people.7

-You weren't calling out specifics or anything, it was playstyle. Nothing hard there, nothing he can really respond to beyond 'I play like this sometimes'.
-If you can't work out what he's doing, the vote won't necesarily help you read him. Despite this, you vote him but don't really interacts with other people. Gives impression you're less interesting in forming wider reads.
-As above, it isn't obvious why A50 is your top/only priority to sort.
So interactions outside+with A50 both make it feel different.

-Briefly- overfocused on Almost50 without obvious town motivation. Reads as alternative to giving content.

[Hopkirk]

Something like this sounds right

Town: Almost 50/JJD/Creature/Wheme/Charles(Vaxkiller)/Myloninja/KK/Dunn
Townish: Pine/Scion/Lovebird
Neutral/POE 1 pool: Robster, Android/ Flavor leaf/ Wave/Rampage/(Arc/ETL- considered in very light town)
POE 2 pool: Performer, Edosurist, Ausuka, Lalendra, Osuka, Texcat

Robster is the only active person in my neutral pile. Someone help me read him.

[Hopkirk]

JarJar please help me improve my reads.

[Hopkirk]

Rereading mylo, I think I attributed a good post to him that he didn't actually make.
Slightly like him on tone for 233, but would put him around Arc/ETL.
Thanks for the assist.

[Hopkirk]

Lalendra's posting feels honest and earnest. I don't mind having her as town. Hop I want to know more about your JJD townread, I can understand Creature/myloin to some degree but the JJD and Wheme ones are the interesting ones on that list.

I'll probably go through JJD again when I catch up. Interested in more on your like of Mylo and Lalaendra.

(Not to mention the post above isn't even towny in fact it's quite bad.)

We're not even sure which post Lovebird's referring to, mine or Charles's.

Which one are u saying is bad?

I'm saying your reasoning for the replace out is bad. The fact Lovebird called it towny is even worse

Why don't you like it? I liked it more as town. My Vax townread is from Charles.

hopkirk has too many townreads.

I think you'll find I don't have

enough

townreads.

as far as "what is too many", i guess that's subjective. more than i feel he should.

What are your thoughts on JarJar. Based on his comments on my reads list he has as many, or maybe 1 more than me? Did you miss that, think it was legitimate, or not care as you townread him, or something else?

[Hopkirk]

Thanks Performer.

Pining for a scum lynch.
Happy with my vote.

Ok what. Did you mean to say you were happy with voting no one?

Votes didn't count at this stage and voting on my phone takes 8 extra keyboard changes.
Pine had just posted.
Anything else about the post that doesn't make sense?

How my mind works
-Start of d1 is to interact with people and form reads on them.
-I want to interact with Lalandra but nobody else does. No need to interact with Edo as there's a wagon which is a subsitute.
-Vote Lalandra.

This wasn’t brought up originally though.

Not sure what you mean. He said how he approaches things, I said how I approach things.
I've been town a lot recently, so you can see the same process in probably my last fiveish games.
If you mean something else, I want to know what.

@Gamma: your catchup comes from scum Gamma. It reminds me a lot of a scum sub-in and catch up you did last time we played. Is this playstyle/do you catch up the same as town (if so can you link something I guess).

[Hopkirk]

am i the only one who feels like day 1 of this doesn't matter

or day 2 or 3 for that matter

i'll sheep whatever almost50 wants since im pretty sure he's town

no i don't have any solid reads because that would imply i've been reading this god-forsaken early game

Oh, look, it’s townMode.

Gotten busy and haven’t kept up. I generally always eventually catch up, and then y’all wish I didn’t. it’ll happen soon.

Can you explain why? I could use two more townreads.

[Hopkirk]

@JarJar: When did you start disliking Vax?

VOTE: Osuka

[Hopkirk]

My read list might make more sense if you look at it as how I'm forming my lynchpool/focusing my attention.

[Hopkirk]

@JarJar: When did you start disliking Vax?

Charles:
132
185
347

Vax:
567
568

Why didn't you ask about the Vax read in 373/4?

[Hopkirk]

Ausuka, Lalendra,

Osuka

, Texcat
Can I get thoughts on these slots A50?

[Hopkirk]

If you use the search function with Author: Hopkirk and look for things like 'pool/POE/interact' you'll see similar things similar to stuff you're commenting on @ETL/Gamma.

[Hopkirk]

Actually 'nasty' is a good search too for what I'm saying.

Looking there and seeing me talking about this to Gamma before makes me like 665 if Gamma's using a meta tell on me there. (were you?)

[Hopkirk]

I can follow JJD's thoughts evolving. This is something I like.
Tone is also nice.
I don't remember who asked me why I liked JJD but this is at them.

[Hopkirk]

I'm assuming at least a couple of scum went 'A50 is obvtown'. Especially if scum on his wagon.
A list would sure be helpful if anyone feels like it. I don't have time to make one right now.

[Hopkirk]

Need to read gamma v osuka in depth when I have computer access.
Rampage isn't bad yet.
Osuka reads is pretty meh. Wagon looks ok, so I'll probably look at people on it to decide if it looks scum driven.
Will respond to stuff when I can type easily.

[Hopkirk]

Read up to 32 so far. I don't think I really scumread Lal/Osuka that much any more.

[Hopkirk]

Ausuka is more likely to flip scum than Osuka based on interactions like 840/1. Wouldn’t vote either though.
UNVOTE: Osuka
869 looks like Hopkirk hasn’t actually read anything properly and didn’t want to get prodded.
ETL is fine. Ousuka definitely went too long without a counterwagon. Either Ouska is town, or scum are mostly inactive and would be easy to POE out either way.
Not really a texcat fan.

[Hopkirk]

@Performer: why town on Tex.
@Robster: Why Android town? Agreeing with all of your other townreads (pedit- up to 940 too).
ETL/FL can be town with scum performer which I’m leaning towards. ETL town independently, but lighter.

[Hopkirk]

Does Wave ever flip town here.

[Hopkirk]

@Performer offtopic: Wheme/Screen are son/dad f I remember right.
@Performer ontopic: how much of your recent reads were based on stuff you were thinking but hadn’t written, and how much was based on reisoing?

[Hopkirk]

Group A: Almost 50, Ousuka, Creature, Pine, Dunn, KK
Group B: Mylo, Gamma, Robster, ETL, Wheme, Scion, JJD
Neutralish. Wouldn’t vote.: Lal, LB/Dave, Flavour Leaf, Ausuka
Need to reread pool: Vax/Arc/Performer/Android/Wave/Texcat/TheRampage

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Wavemode

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk, what does group A / group B mean?

You can read it is strong/weak town, but I didn't feel the phrasing it fit super well since it's not in order and there's people who could go in either/potentially down to neutral.
The intent is a lynchpool more than a reads list, but it's still a reads list for most intents and purposes.

[Hopkirk]

Also why the bottom group is a POE pool rather than 'scum'. I'm almost definitely townreading scums.

[Hopkirk]

Rampage's iso is hilariously ironic.

194- Attacks Creature for popping in and saying why he's been inactive. Rampage thinks town Creature would give some thoughts rather than just say he has a busy schedule.
509- (three days later)- Rampage pops in and says why he's been inactive. Rampage has a busy schedule but doesn't give any thoughts.
@Rampage: In hindsight, do you think the tell you had is legitimately something that applies to scum?

681 is very meh. The only thing that stood out being the easiest vote/lynch. Really, the second half of 681 applies to 681.

[Hopkirk]

@Gamma: see 1004 for A/B.
Why does wave not being bought up before matter?

[Hopkirk]

Given neighbors can be mafia, who are you with?
3p is like 90% including mafia. 4+ I assume is even more likely. Mafia would also know these people are neigbors given daytalk and no third parties.
2p seems odd/improbable in a 25p game.

[Hopkirk]

I missed that.
Lets get more votes.

[Hopkirk]

Why didn't you push Wave when you were townreading Performer?

[Hopkirk]

I just finished a game with a 3p neighbourhood. I think someone said there's scum in over 90%, hang on.

[Hopkirk]

I am a town neighbor.
Shoshin and brawl are both in my hood.

Then one of Screen and Shoshin and Brawl are probably scum, a 3 town neighborhood is probably unlikely?

8% of three town neighborhoods have been all town based on previous setups.

Likely one scum in the hood.

I checked post game, only looking at mini normals, and most contained 1 mafia. Not 100% where the 8% came from though.
Idk about large. Looking at the stats would probably be worthwhile.

Performer actually looks like he's been trying to sort your neighbourhood which is really good if Wave flips scum.

Anything from Wave in the neighbourhood at all? Worth summarising what he's said there, preferably with (paraphrased) timings.

[Hopkirk]

Yeah. I'd lean towards Wave scum you/Performer town then.
Assuming it's not a poorly concieved triple scum fakeclaim gambit that dies to prs

[Hopkirk]

It's confirmed 3p

[Hopkirk]

I feel like you're missing and/or misinterpreting a lot in the last couple of pages Gamma.

[Hopkirk]

Ausuka clearly means by 'mechanical level' that VT/Neighbor are better lynches than potential pr lynches.

[Hopkirk]

@Rampage: if you can't reasonably expect to be able to play a game eventually (if you expect to be busy for a long time) then sub out.
This isn't even slightly hard to replace into as larges go.
Either you're saying you'll sub out later when it's harder for someone to catch up, or you intend not to do anything and play against your win con, or you're encouraging us to lynch you and playing against your win con.
At the current rate, given the prod dodge rules, you're likely to get force replaced eventually anyway if your activity isn't going to improve.

[Hopkirk]

@Vax: you know Wave is hard lurking right? And has a good wagon? And is in the neighbourhood that statistically contains scum?

[Hopkirk]

People have been saying osuka is a bad wagon all game without ever touching on his actual play

"The wagon forming looks bad with so many people"
"Nobody else is getting votes"

I liked his post vomit as well. I think a couple of people who townread him after it mentioned that as why.

Rampage's iso is hilariously ironic.

194- Attacks Creature for popping in and saying why he's been inactive. Rampage thinks town Creature would give some thoughts rather than just say he has a busy schedule.
509- (three days later)- Rampage pops in and says why he's been inactive. Rampage has a busy schedule but doesn't give any thoughts.
@Rampage: In hindsight, do you think the tell you had is legitimately something that applies to scum?

681 is very meh. The only thing that stood out being the easiest vote/lynch. Really, the second half of 681 applies to 681.

If you find rampages ISO so odd, why are you voting wave?

Where do I say it's odd/that stuff is AI?
Why would disliking Rampage stop me disliking Wave (more)?
Why would I not lynch in the neighbourhood now?

@PErformer on misreading: I missed Ausuka as I was doing other stuff at the time the claim came and only saw the latest post. Ausuka didn't say Wave was VT. She said/implied Neighbour=VT in value.

[Hopkirk]

Traitor Ausuka would draw fire into the neighbourhood if no scum in it.

[Hopkirk]

@Vax: you know Wave is hard lurking right? And has a good wagon? And is in the neighbourhood that statistically contains scum?

How many neighborhoods are there? I'm not in one.

Are you misinterpreting it deliberately? I'm pretty sure 'the thing that' is a gramatically correct way of describing a singular thing. Even if it's not, the alternative you're suggesting I'm suggesting just isn't logically following on from anything.

[Hopkirk]

I can buy town Performer based on the effort around the reads lists kind of time.

The counterwagon you're talking about started with another neighbour member, which doesn't seem bad. Where do you dislike the wagon formation?

[Hopkirk]

I can buy town Performer based on the effort around the reads lists kind of time.

*pulls my hair out*
DUDE. NO.

EFFORT DOES NOT EQUAL ALIGNMENT.....

The counterwagon you're talking about started with another neighbour member, which doesn't seem bad. Where do you dislike the wagon formation?

Look at the timing. Performer wagon started getting attention, and then suddenly wave is big news..?? gtfoh...

You're just going to take it at face value?

Ok, where's scum on the (early) counterwagon? That's where my problem is.

@Dunn: The post you quoted is in response to Vax saying he'd like a lurker lynch, and me pointing out Wave is a lurker + some other points hat should be objective.
The neighbourhood thing clearly isn't why I voted wave (since it wasn't known), but it certainly widened and deepened it.

To anyone saying neighbourhood isn't very very likely to contain scum- can you show me why not using site meta? Unless someone does, I'm assuming there's an 80-90% chance it does...

[Hopkirk]

@Dunn/ETL: Can you sell me on Performer? I could see it.

[Hopkirk]

there was NO counterwagon until performer started getting votes. that's my point.

No counterwagon to Osuka?
Ok, so where's the scum on the counterwagon to Performer?

[Hopkirk]

there was NO counterwagon until performer started getting votes. that's my point.

No counterwagon to Osuka?
Ok, so where's the scum on the counterwagon to Performer?

on the wavemode wagon

So Dave and/or Tex?

[Hopkirk]

Looking at Wave meta and he seems a lot more engaged as town.
In the games I've looked at so far he's subbed out 3/3 times as scum after not posting much.

[Hopkirk]

Looking at Wave meta and he seems a lot more engaged as town.
In the games I've looked at so far he's subbed out 3/3 times as scum after not posting much.

that's a nice sample bias you got there pal

rather than insulting my integrity by suggesting that i replace out to avoid playing scum rather than for legitimate RL reasons, why not look at games where, i dunno, i actually stayed in til the end?

Am I missing any games? I saw 4 scum games. You subbed out in three after low activity, and the other looks like your first game.
It's activity more than subbing out, and it seems like you're a lot more active as town.
Does this sound right? Do you mention D1 apathy anywhere else?

I need to do a reread of Performer at some point.

[Hopkirk]

I found this in which he is fairly apathetic I think? but doesn't replace out.

The replacing out isn't what I'm looking at, it's apathy.
Like how people view Creature.
Are you looking at the meta? Do you feel the same?

[Hopkirk]

'Perf – greetings all. why should we claim?? Based on wiki & normalcy guidelines, 1 of you should be scum so I don’t think the 3 of us are town'

This is kind of a problem given Ausuka didn't seem to be aware of this in thread.

[Hopkirk]

1st half of the Performer wagon was good/townreads.
Then Wave wagon happens pretty rapidly.
Then Performer grows by four.
Isn't Performer a counterwagon to Wave?

I was voting Wave prior to the neighbourhood thing (2nd vote, Ausuka only voted after I said I don't see Wave ever flipping town here).
I didn't ever explain

why

, and nobody asked me.

[Hopkirk]

I'm thinking about Gamma. Maybe Texcat.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Performer
I don't think I like the Wave wagon composition.

[Hopkirk]

4/25 is still a minority to me.

But yeah I'm behind ppl saying hoods are NAI, I just think wave flips red anyway.

Why didn't you talk about this with Performer when he said they were AI based on site meta in the hood?

[Hopkirk]

If it's Ausuka in the hood then it's Osuka out of the hood. Want to look more at both.

[Hopkirk]

Towning Ausuka for releasing the Neighbourhood is only legit if she thinks we'll keep lynching in there, which she's arguing against.

[Hopkirk]

Why are there no Ausuka votes here when the other two have over half the players between them.

[Hopkirk]

Where's your town on Gamma come from Ausuka?

[Hopkirk]

I need to reread Ousuka tomorrow.

pedit- uh what.

[Hopkirk]

Ok that stopped me going down dead end/objectively wrong interaction based scumteam stuff.

[Hopkirk]

Gamma and Ousuka concerns were based on 'what if Ausuka is the scum there' interactions. Not going to relook at those then.

[Hopkirk]

@Ausuka: can you give an updated townpool if anything's changed?
I have a lot of pretty confident townreads and feel good about where the game is going.
Will reread Performer hard tomorrow.

[Hopkirk]

UNVOTE: Performer
Will reread tomorrow.

[Hopkirk]

Not the whole thing, Performer/Wave.

[Hopkirk]

How do people feel on Arc/Tex/Lalendra/Dave?

[Hopkirk]

Dave's iso is commentry.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Performer

Don't think there's time to quickwagon Dave.
Would consider Arc.

[Hopkirk]

Spoiler: Love bird

Lovebird is my most confident scumread for the following posts.

Screenplay and Creature confirmed but not posted.

This post feels like shade for no reason it's not needed why did they ask this 'they wanted to point it out'

This is very unlike your tone in other games we've played and I'm not sure if you're just trying something new or if you're really as scummy as you're making yourself sound, and that's almost impossible to believe but as of yet I have no other explanation

I think Lalendra is town

UNVOTE:

Sorry Ircher and everybody. 25 players and 13 pages already. Too much for me to keep up with and post any kind of intelligent analysis.

Ircher asked me to sign up as a favor and I did. There's a reason I don't play mafia. I am no good at mafia and I don't really enjoy it. I'll be over in the mish mash forum.

Please go ahead and replace me out.

this reads to me as someone that didnt want to roll scum but did.

This is towny.

Posts like the 2 above are very lazy and feel like posting just for the sake of posting. I'd love for a lovebird wagon to start to get the pressure on them.
(Not to mention the post above isn't even towny in fact it's quite bad.)

Spoiler: A50

This was mentioned in the queue thread, but I shall mention it again here to ensure that everyone is aware and so that everyone can find this information easily.

This game is confirmed to contain solely town-aligned players and mafia-aligned players. In other words, there are no Werewolves, there are no Serial Killers, and there are no second Mafia groups.

Btw, I claim

Survivor

. Ircher forgot to explicitly announce there are none of those (it's implied, but not explicitly stated), so I'd like to claim it now to prevent him from announcing it later.

Also, I'm Ascetic Hider with 1-shot of BP/PGO on odd nights. In even nights I'm a compulsive Commuter. You simply can't touch me.

I'm gonna follow Khan here.
VOTE: Almost50

FINALLY! The "I'm gonna follow Khan here." soft-clears KK and implicates Edo. It's almost like he's saying he knows I'm town and is already blaming it on KK. Bad bad vote here.

VOTE: Edosurist

My fellow townies, follow me. Are you ready to lynch a mafioso?

I assume the survivor claim was fake and leading into this second post feels really towny coming from A50. He wanted reactions and he's leading with them i'm confident in town A50.

I already said I townread Lalendra.

Forgot about Android.

This push was bad.

[Hopkirk]

Also happy with an Android wagon.
If he flips scum then so does Mylo.

[Hopkirk]

Leaning towards staying on Performer though.

[Hopkirk]

I'm kinda wavering on Performance. Wavemode is challenging the top levels of the scummy charts.

I don't know if this game is active or coordinated enough to change course though.

What do you mean on Wave there, that could read one of two ways.

[Hopkirk]

How do people feel about Dave?

[Hopkirk]

@Frozen: Ausuka is an IC in a neighbourhood with Wave and Performer.

[Hopkirk]

@Ausuka: Is the Dave slot townread due to the site quit?

[Hopkirk]

Dave complained about people reading him as scum due to playstyle (as scum) a lot at the end of the (only other) game I played with him if I'm rememering right.
Probably town, but not 100%.

[Hopkirk]

I'm around finally

Why is your vote where it is.

[Hopkirk]

Anyone got Lalendra meta reads here?

[Hopkirk]

I could swtch to Android.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Android
On second thoughts, I shouldn't be without access to a computer this weekend for more than an hour at a time.

[Hopkirk]

Classic (IC): Ausuka
Class TA: (town, not a priority to reread) Gamma, A50, KK, Creature, ETL, Mylo, Scion, Ousuka
Class TB: (town that i should reread tomorrow but still like) Penguin, Pine, Robster, Flavor Leaf, FA, Dunn
Class TC (as above, but concerned with some associatons specifically): Wheme, JarJar
Class S: (lynchpool): Texcat, Android, Arc, Lalendra

Class N (Neighbours with probably one scum): Performer/Wave
Class V (Claiming Vig): Vax

I think I'm looking at something along these lines roughly. A few people in TA/TB should probably swap positions. TC isn't lower necesarily lower than TB.

[Hopkirk]

@Tex/Wheme/Flavour Leaf: Why are your votes where they are?

[Hopkirk]

To me it shows that he's not reading the game and is just saying things

This is exactly what I’m doing.

Dunn, you’ve played many games with me, recently as well, I’ll show up

I hate early game especially in larges. I just get in long toxic 1v1’s

I thing early game large's are the best thing ever, so I have several disparaging remarks to make about your upbringing.

My townieness will be proven eventually.

Oh, cool. We'll just leave you alive until endgame and aw shit, you were scum. We're all dead.

The "I'm gonna lurk Day 1 and be active later" role is already occupied by Pine, Creature, ETL, and maybe one or two others. At least they all voted and provided some content.

You are so under the radar it's ridiculous that I'm the only one calling attention to it.

It feels townier than active lurking.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Performer

Why?
How are you reading Android? The only mention of him in your iso is a (minor) scumread in the 400s. You haven't commented on him since the competing wagons.

[Hopkirk]

Wave is prob scum then.
Ousuka feels too scummy to be scum but could flip scum.

[Hopkirk]

Arc is a decent looking shot.

[Hopkirk]

Wow there's actually no overlap on Ousuka/Performer wagons except KK who looks town.

Arc where were you before deadline?

[Hopkirk]

Reading through stuff. Asukua, ETL, Gamma, Frozen, Scion, Creature, KK town hard.

Penguin power: not sure scum subs out after town says ‘contribute or get out’, especially when other scum are probably lurking.

[Hopkirk]

I'd say fake guilties are almost as dumb as fake daykills.

[Hopkirk]

Dunn, Pine, and Robster can go there too. Vax I want to say.

[Hopkirk]

Scion's tone just reads as genuine.

[Hopkirk]

why you only adding on reads now

feels like wifom before being lynched

These are basically the reads I had yesterday.

why pine is town read hopkirk?

pedit: can you show me which posts look like that to you?

I'm rereading him now since I'm wondering the same thing since rereading KK makes me uneasy on pine.

KK is a scumread now for me.

[Hopkirk]

if I ask you to hardclaim will you hardclaim

either say yes or no

Rolefishing is towny.

[Hopkirk]

Yeah I'm putting KK and Pine in my scumpool.

[Hopkirk]

I do not like their pushes on the dead town. Especially KK's.

[Hopkirk]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I agree.

[Hopkirk]

I'd prefer to finish rereading stuff before posting substantive stuff.

@Ircher:

did you actually count those recent prods as prods? The overnight ones? Definitely wasn't 48h of the thread being open that I didn't post within.

No, I was just being lazy and didn't delete them.
~Ircher

[Hopkirk]

I'll talk about Pine after I spend a while staring at votecounts.

[Hopkirk]

Oh I thought the first page stars meant Ircher manually added prods there.

JJD is still town right? I want to reread there.

[Hopkirk]

Andriod18 (9) (L-4) - JarJarDrinks (1410), Creature (1449), Almost50 (1460), Hopkirk (1679), Ausuka (1680), Gamma Emerald (1711), Scioness Sajj (1760), Performer (1765), Flavor Leaf (1772)

This is crazy pure. Android is probably scum still.

[Hopkirk]

Disliking: Pine/KK/Arc/Wave/Android.
Lal/Tex/Mylo/Flavour Leaf I need to reread and see where they fall. Any thoughts would be helpful too.

[Hopkirk]

Wheme should also be in the sorty zone.
Lalendra can move to nasty pile.

[Hopkirk]

Performer feels like lynchbait to me. I don't have an issue with the Wave wagon, but I prefer Osuka still. I'll have to find somewhere positive to put my vote thogh.

Deadline is hours away and I'm on what amounts to a vanity wagon.

I am admittedly way behind and have nothing specific against Android, but he's a better lynch than Performer. I also like the wagon composition better, and EOD flashwagons in my experience are usually driven by Town, often on scum.

VOTE: Android

Dislike the thought process/trajectory. Stays on Ousuka while making minor points about not liking other wagons and not pushing Ousuka is meh. My main problem is Pine calls it a vanity wagon themself. Doesn't read as super genuine. Feels kind of positioningy.
Definitely isn't incompatible with Android scum. Could see it a bit more based on today too, especially if wagon is as pure as it looks.

[Hopkirk]

No longer townreading Scion after looking through a few previous games. Given the amount they posted in other games + Scion's approach to it this game, this feels like intentional lurking.

[Hopkirk]

Can you go through town Tex Rob?

[Hopkirk]

Can you go through town Tex Rob?

@JarJAr I mean.

[Hopkirk]

@Android: I didn't vote you because I wasn't done with what I wanted to read before voting.


Scumpool: KK, Arc, Wave, Android, Lalendra
Scumpool 2 (the ones I want to sort more. Harder to sort due to lurking): Tex, pine, Wheme, Flavour Leaf, Mylo, Scion

VOTE: Android

[Hopkirk]

2336/Tex sounds genuine.
Leaning town on Mylo, Flavour Leaf, and texy I think.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Kublai khan
Let's have a wagon here.

[Hopkirk]

Phoneposting btw so quoting and stuff is hard.

@jarjar- when did you start scum reading Scion?

[Hopkirk]

That's fair.

How about a KK wagon, followed by a wave wagon then an Arc wagon on the scumflip, then we try and sort the rest of the stuff out?

Or Wave could go first.

[Hopkirk]

@Android- can you do a read list?

[Hopkirk]

We could also slot android in there at some point.

[Hopkirk]

That's fair.

How about a KK wagon, followed by a wave wagon then an Arc wagon on the scumflip, then we try and sort the rest of the stuff out?

Or Wave could go first.

do you not have a preference for your scumreads in terms of lynch order?

talk to me about why wave and arc is scum?

you mentioned his meta, counter-wagon to performer and how he seems more engaged as town; do you still stand by these reasons?

'do you not have a preference for your scumreads in terms of lynch order?': I don't understand why you're asking this and would like to know what you mean?
For a brief answer though- yes I have a prefered lynch order. Of course a one vote wagon isn't a lynch and I'm not pushing exclusively one right now.

Yes. Other stuff too that I haven't gone over yet but should do eventually. I also still think the neighbourhood likely contains scum because most do.

How about a KK wagon, followed by a wave wagon then an Arc wagon

on the scumflip

, then we try and sort the rest of the stuff out?

Uh, what's the point of having a wagon on me if you're going to tell me ahead of time that you don't really believe in it and you actually think wavemode is scum?

^

[Hopkirk]

@Khan: how does Android make you feel? You didn't mention him D1. What about Wave? Similar, but you attacking Performer/Ausuka while not saying anything negative of note.

[Hopkirk]

I like how Wave has you as more town than the confirmed IC.

[Hopkirk]

How about joining me on Khan JJ?

[Hopkirk]

Kublai’s engagement feels kind of false. Summary of interactions/mentions of everyone in the game:

Dunn- Townreads based on Dunn pointing out when Android last posted. Doesn’t address the townread again.

Robster- asks a couple of light questions without followup and agrees we probably shouldn’t lynch in the neighbourhood (post Ausuka claim).

Pine- Mentions Pine is active lurking about 6ish times. Doesn’t press Pine on this (like he does Scion). Townreads anyway.

Creature- A bit of doubt over the Creature meta tells. No direct conversation.

Wheme- Doesn’t really mention.

Hopkirk- Excluding this one as it’s me.

Edo/Gamma- doesn’t engage with or even mention respectively.

Ausuka- Scumreads pretty explicitly for most of the game.

Lalendra- Asks two people about their reads on the slot as part of a list of several people he’s asking about.

ETL- No engagement.

Love/Dave/FA- Minor push, doesn’t mention, doesn’t mention.

JarJar- Votes and pushes a bit D1. Isn’t voting him now/slight defence of JJ on push against him.

Android- Mentions once saying people shouldn’t complain about Android/Wave with FL around.

Tex- Townreads. Idk where.

Arc- Includes in one list of active lurkers but not another (the Android/Wave/FL post). Doesn’t really push/mention).

Vax- Doesn’t really mention. Currently voting.

Wave- Defends a lot.

The Rampage- Not sure of KK’s read.

Mylo- Mentions as a lurker a few times.

Scion- Votes and says it was to push Scion. Does not attempt to push other lurkers in the same way. Barely mentions most of the lurkers. One of the things that feels contradictory.

Flavour Leaf- Pushes a lot harder than most lurkers for basically the same thing. Want to lynch FL/calls him a bad player, largely ignores most people who aren’t contributing.

2402 attacking FL is pretty bad in this respect. Tries to discredit FL by saying about FL ‘Where's you reads on the game? Your promised analysis? You've had no comment on Pine all game? Lalendra? Myloninja13?’ which also applies to KK. Hypocritical.

Does not ask the same question to Arc, Android, Mylo etc.

(Dead town)

Almost50- Pushes a bit early on. Mostly abandons/doesn’t follow up (arguably when it became clear people townread A50)

Ousuka- Pushes hard.

Performer- Pushes hard.


Summary: Feels like he’s not actually looking to solve the game and feels kind of self-contradictory. Not engaging deeply. Not following up on stuff. Unclear reads/doesn’t really feel like he’s trying to solve. Feels especially inconsistent in regard to lurkers.

Doesn’t help that his main five pushes are the three dead townies, the IC, and a push on FL that doesn’t fit how KK interacts with other non-contributors. Also doesn’t help he ignores/defends Android/Wave (who I scumread) while pushing every other wagon that happened yesterday.

Note- decided to go through this fully and see what results I got since I noticed earlier he doesn't mention Android, defends Wave, attacks Ousuka/Performer/Ausuka.

[Hopkirk]

It might just be bad reads, mine weren’t great D1 either, but he seems active but the only pushing he’s done has been on town, a bad push on FL, and basically ignoring most of everyone else. It feels like pushing rather than solving, and it doesn't feel consistent.

[Hopkirk]

Summary: Feels like he’s not actually looking to solve the game and feels kind of self-contradictory. Not engaging deeply. Not following up on stuff. Unclear reads/doesn’t really feel like he’s trying to solve. Feels especially inconsistent in regard to lurkers.

Doesn’t help that his main five pushes are the three dead townies, the IC, and a push on FL that doesn’t fit how KK interacts with other non-contributors. Also doesn’t help he ignores/defends Android/Wave (who I scumread) while pushing every other wagon that happened yesterday.

Note- decided to go through this fully and see what results I got since I noticed earlier he doesn't mention Android, defends Wave, attacks Ousuka/Performer/Ausuka.

Huh. That looks really damning.

It'd be really town if you put a vote at the end of it. Instead the vote came a few days before. So it's not your case. It's a great example in confirmation bias. You went looking for "evidence" to justify your vote and you've found it.

You've the game repeatedly posting your full reads on everyone and you're scum-reading someone who plays differently than you. I don't play the field. I focus on a few people at a time. If I get a town-sense of someone, I drop the issue. If it's an issue I press on it.

When I put the vote down, I'd looked at how you interacted with Android, Wave, Ausuka, Performer, Flavour (though less here), Ousuka, Almost50, and a couple of lurkers. That's the main part of the case and was enough for me to move you to scum. The rest I looked at to see if I got a similar sense of things.

This, if confirmation biased, is going to be equally confirm.biased whether I do it right after reading the first set of interactions, or a few days later. So timing shouldn't matter here.

Of course whether it was put together before or after I voted doesn't change whether the content is valid or not.


Interested in some kind of reads list, especially your thoughts on Wave, thoughts on lurkers and why flavour differs.

[Hopkirk]

@KK - GET THAT VOTE BACK ON ME OR SO HELP ME! or so help me!

If you flip town, you need to be policy WOTM out of every game.

I mean, you know, been here for 4+ years, win the majority of my scum games, heard this multiple times, doesn’t stop me from solving games/fooling people as scum :shrug:

I don't believe you. I can't believe you.

Look, this isn't real life. I can't look at your face for visual cues as to whether or not you're joking around or not. I have to read your words and either take them at face value or not. This is why the "Lynch all Liars" policy is the best policy. If everyone in the game is 100% truthful all the time, then town is more likely to win.

If you're town, you're more interested in winning a scum game in the future by setting a meta of being a liar now. That's shitty. It doesn't respect the time, energy, and frustration I'm putting into this game over the days and weeks. If you're scum, you've set the set bar low so that you can say or do whatever and town are fools for letting you get away with it.

You're so self-serving that you're Scrappy-Doo.

This is a town post. I retract my scum theater comment. Leaf vs KK is legit SvT.

Is it town because he sounds like he believes what he's saying tonewise, or because you think town is more likely to rant about anti-town play?
There's a follow up to this.

[Hopkirk]

Ok, that's what I thought you were saying but I wanted to make sure.

Follow up:

I decided to look through KK's previous games for things like 'shitty', 'anti-town', and similar stuff (fun fact, 2.4% of his posts contain the word shitty and 7.4% contain the word shit).
I came across this. If I counted right, this is from the game before his previous game.
Two posts in particular stood out. One is quoted, one is linked. The linked one is more important to read.

Sure, I acknowledge that. But you took a shitty vow to uphold your shitty meta of not posting complex thoughts in a game where it's helpful for your follow players to understand the motivations behind your actions. So based on what you did post and what you didn't post, you are most likely to be scum.

(viewtopic.php?p=9879544#p9879544).

Compare these to
viewtopic.php?p=10299781#p10299781
and
viewtopic.php?p=10300200#p10300200

These strongly resemble his attack on Wisdom in that game.
Khan was town in that game for reference.

If Khan's town, it's legit because he feels that way and we have proof he feels that way.
If Khan's town, he can easily fake it looking legit because:

1.) he legitimately feels that way about town who play like he sees FL playing as. Therefore, given we're accepting scum will also rant about this kind of thing, what he's saying is going to sound legit from either alignment as he's making legit complaints that he actually believes are true. Whether he's scum or not doesn't really matter there since he should still be able to make the arguments if he's thought about it, and doesn't like it.

2.)

He's made the same argument before in a similar layout, tone, and using very similar words/phrasing

(some of the points are very similar too). This is probably also pretty fresh in his memory, and was sucessful in getting the person he was attacking lynched. If he's scum, he definitely knows how to make it look legit because he's made basically the same post and attack before.

Also, I assume you accept scum is as likely to complain about bad play as town. I don't have any stats or anything here, but based on experience I wouldn't say one stands out as super more likely. If anyone has stuff here it'd be interesting to read about. Hence, the act of ranting doesn't make it town, the metric we're looking at is how legit it looks/reads as.

TLDR- if he's town it's legit because it's legit. If it's scum, he can definitely fake it looking legit. I'm not saying it comes from scum, I'm saying it could come from scum or town so isn't a town tell at all.

[Hopkirk]

1 is enough for it to become NAI. 2 makes it definitely NAI and a little concerning (though not enough to form a read based on it).

[Hopkirk]

@JJD: why do you think Kublai interacts with FL that way, but mostly ignores other lurkers?

[Hopkirk]

bad case. most of it is oversimplification and ignoring nuance. I don't see anything there that's scum indicative, especially if you juxtapose kk's supposedly shallow engagement with that of a number of other players who are much worse. I still townread Kublai

'Other people are engaging less' is pretty much textbook 'whataboutism' to detract from actually looking at an issue ('X is bad', 'Y is worse than X' doesn't mean X isn't concerning). Of course I'm also taking issue with how he's engaging/who he's engaging with- and maybe moreso, who he isn't engaging with. The critique isn't that he's not posting content, it's how he's posting and what he's not posting.

Do you feel like he was buddying you at all when he went hard against Ausuka/Performer while defending you when you were a leading dual wagon?
Do you think he's consistent in how he engages across the game?

[Hopkirk]

because FL is interacting with him I suppose.

Going over mentions/timings/when interactions began.

FL

2209- first time Flavour mentions Kublai in a game related way. Scumread/interaction comes a little later.

KK

779- mentions FL has 4 votes and 2 reads.

1204- asks FL why he hasn’t voted yet.

1347- Includes FL in a list of lurkers.

1545- Specifically says FL is the best vig shot.

1728- Says if we want to lynch someone useless, we should definitely lynch Flavour.

Note- no comment on Android here along with a six-person Android wagon is concerning, especially given I independently scumread Android. Plus, as I’ve said, KK hasn’t even mentioned Android. If he wants to lynch someone useless then why isn’t he on the Android wagon?

1741- Says FL is worse than other ‘I’m going to lurk D1’ people (Pine, Creature, ETL) as they’ve provided content. What about Android, Mylo, Scion, Arc, who’ve provided similar amounts? No mentions here.

Like, I don't know why people are whining about Android18 or wavemode or whoever else with Flavor Leaf around.

1742- Worth quoting. Defends Android/Wave saying FL is worse (hasn’t tried to start a FL wagon oddly).

1944- Votes FL here after four days of shading.

2217/8- starts engaging with Flavour directly here. Asks FL questions/responds to responses.

Conclusions

-I feel this shows pretty clearly that ‘because FL is interacting with him I suppose.’ Doesn’t explain why KK treated FL differently to lurkers given 1545/1741/1742 an such before they actually started interacting. He specifically calls FL out as the worse, feeling oddly different to Arc, Android, etc.

-KK only actually starts reallu directly engaging with flavour (asking stuff) after FL votes KK. Before that he’s talking about FL.

[Hopkirk]

What are your reads looking like Ausuka? I know last list had JJD, KK, and FL all near/at the bottom.
How do you feel about KK/FL interactions.

[Hopkirk]

@Wave, considering 2502 that I posted above, why do you think KK pushed FL while not mentioning Android. Bearing in mind that Android was a leading wagon at the time and FL had no votes on him?

[Hopkirk]

Out of interest, what is 'Town Hopkirk' @Rob.

[Hopkirk]

Oh, I was asking because I thought you meant something meta specific.

[Hopkirk]

@Wave, considering 2502 that I posted above, why do you think KK pushed FL while not mentioning Android. Bearing in mind that Android was a leading wagon at the time and FL had no votes on him?

Your 2502 is conspicuously ignoring 2211. Do you disagree with his observation? Or do you just disagree with his conclusion that FL is scum (and why, I might ask)?

I feel it's clear I ignored everything after they started interacting since at that point either one of them could retroactively apply justification- and basically everything is justifiable in retrospect. He doesn't say that when he's pushing for a Flavour wagon D1.

He mentioned it in 1204 but it went nowhere. Flavour replied on the same page and KK didn't respond to the reply. Isn't clear here he has a problem with it. He doesn't start treating Flavour differently to other lurkers at this point.

It's also unclear why scum wouldn't vote anybody if they wanted to fly 'under the radar' (as KK specified). Not voting is something that someone will definitely notice. If FL wanted to fly under the radar he could have been on a vanity wagon D1.
Taking conspicuous (in) action isn't flying under the radar in the same way active lurking is.

Are you saying KK thinks active lurking is fine, but calling attention to your own active lurking/not doing stuff D1 (he mentions this a couple of times, Flavour does it explicitly too) is scum indicative? I don't get that sense, but it seems like what he's doing/what you're saying he's doing.

On a similar note, do you have a problem with FL saying he didn't want to do stuff D1?

Also while I'm responding, on the 1% chance it's relevant, if you're not really VT and you haven't told Ausuka that in the neighbourhood then you should.

[Hopkirk]

That hammer.

[Hopkirk]

Why are you voting kk android?

[Hopkirk]

Mason/full town neighbourhood doesn't seem that likely. How do you feel about Wave?

[Hopkirk]

Those are good points. I'm not sure what to make of the language and attitude in KK's posts - as you said, it is his town meta, but would be easy to fake - but the fact that KK ignored the Android wagon is very troubling to me.

As a matter of fact, I also would like to see more from Android.

VOTE: Andriod18

This would imply you scumread KK as my partner yes? Let's change that
VOTE: Kublai Khan

What is this supposed to change?

Also, we're like 4 days to deadline and I don't know what half the game is thinking atm. Can everyone try and post some kind of reads list or at least a few scumreads?

[Hopkirk]

Actually I think I buy that logic for Wave town.
A neighbourhood is likely to out itself D1 (from what I've seen/heard). An IC in that NH is likely to IC themselves after that.
Based on site meta, if the venegeful gets lynch, they're likely to shoot Wave's slot.
If the vengeful isn't lynched, that's because Wave was.

It'd really suck from a setup design point of view (and be super unfun for the slot) if Wave got a scumrole that's very likely to get killed D1 from a mechanical/claim based thing that he can't really stop. That doesn't seem like good/fun setup design at all.

[Hopkirk]

'Here's your role, you're very likely to die d1 since site meta is kill you/the other neighbour' is a shitty position that doesn't seem super likely actually.

[Hopkirk]

Site meta isn't to lynch within neighbours? I thought it was. Might be coloured by my last game having a neighbourhood with 1 scum 2 town.
Like 80%+ have mafia. After an IC claim it seem pretty likely we'll lynch in there.

[Hopkirk]

@Ausuka: Was looking at meta quickly, and I think you played in Mylo's only full scumgame. Does this feel similar? It reads as similar, but you're in a better position to judge.
Cautious about using meta with only one game, but he was very inactive/lurky in that game, and (mostly) a lot more active in town games. I could see this as a Creature style deal.

[Hopkirk]

I'm getting a real urge to lynch Ausuka. I know she's a confirmed innocent and all, but she's also a neighbour and I'm feeling really conflicted.

[Hopkirk]

Who's that pedit at?

[Hopkirk]

Are PT cops normal?

[Hopkirk]

@JJD: am I missing something, or did he only use the phrase twice as scum? It seems like a small pool?

I tried something with looking at word use a few games ago and it went pretty badly. Had someone scoring in the 40s by the metrics I was looking at in 3 scumgames and the 10s in 3 scumgames and read them wrong because they were doing the town one as scum. Probably due to a bad choice of metrics, but it seems like a tiny data set for something that isn't inherently scummy.

Would FL bringing up an occasion where he's said that phrase (as FL) actually have changed your read on him?

[Hopkirk]

Just to make 90% into 100%
2 masons-positive
1 mason -negative

2/3 scum- +ve
1 scum- -ve

[Hopkirk]

Nvm, checked the wiki and I understood it right.

[Hopkirk]

Actually I think I buy that logic for Wave town.
A neighbourhood is likely to out itself D1 (from what I've seen/heard). An IC in that NH is likely to IC themselves after that.
Based on site meta, if the venegeful gets lynch, they're likely to shoot Wave's slot.
If the vengeful isn't lynched, that's because Wave was.

It'd really suck from a setup design point of view (and be super unfun for the slot) if Wave got a scumrole that's very likely to get killed D1 from a mechanical/claim based thing that he can't really stop. That doesn't seem like good/fun setup design at all.

what?

talk to me how you feel about setup now knowing me and FL are masons

I townread FL/bought the claim when I wrote that. Not sure if I'm misinterpreting your question.

[Hopkirk]

can't tell if FL was at work or silently ignoring my gambit

What did you expect to get out of it? If you aren't actually the partner he knows that.

What were you trying to tell with the question you asked me Robster?

[Hopkirk]

Like, he'd know you were gambiting. Interrupting gambits nullifies any point to them.

[Hopkirk]

I think everyone should take a stance on FL now. The alternative is we get a wagon that slowly builds to L3-4ish with 1 or 2 days to deadline followed by a partner claiming and a deadline scarmble that probably results in either a no lynch, or more likely a deadline scramble over someone we could have pushed now instead of in three days time.

[Hopkirk]

So how're everyone's read lists looking?

[Hopkirk]

I'm concerned about the number of people asking FL to fullclaim when he's got 5 votes on him. Attracting more votes after a PR claim that weren't there before seems like prime position for scum rolefishing. Nobody's asked KK to claim yet (and he shouldn't be expect to).

Most obviously applicable to Lalendra. I'd need to look back on who said he should have a partner claim but hasn't voted him.

[Hopkirk]

Why would you want to lynch within masons if a partner claimed?

Based on what you've said (wanting to lynch within masons/neighs)
Either you doubt the claim, in which case you should want to lynch FL.
Or you believe the claim and you should want to lynch Wave.

But you're saying you want a mason partner to claim

then

you want to vote within the 3 people. That definitely doesn't make sense.

[Hopkirk]

How about you catch up by readin some ISOs?

Also 'fuck all y'all for not assisting me in getting up to speed btw'- what exactly do you want us to point you to? In general?

[Hopkirk]

Hood
-Ausuka the IC
-Performer the lynched veneful
-Wave the living

If you want to lynch in the neighbourhood, you want to lynch Wave.

Can masons even have modifiers in a normal?

I'd suggest looking at KK (where I'm voting), FL (to decide if you buy the claim), Wave (Neighbour), Android (yesterday's leading lynch for a time and only survivor of a large wagon), and the other lurkers since it'll be quick (Wheme, yourself, Mylo, Scion, Pine whoever else slips my mind due to lack of presence).

Time to sleep.

[Hopkirk]

I've made four or five reads lists so far this game. Not even Flavour Leaf actually noticed the crumb.

Neutral/POE 1 pool: Robster, Android/

Flavor leaf

/ Wave/Rampage/(Arc/ETL- considered in very light town)

Neutralish. Wouldn’t vote.: Lal, LB/Dave,

Flavour Leaf

, Ausuka

Class TB: (town that i should reread tomorrow but still like) Penguin, Pine, Robster,

Flavor Leaf

, FA, Dunn

Lal/Tex/Mylo/

Flavour Leaf

I need to reread and see where they fall. Any thoughts would be helpful too

Scumpool 2 (the ones I want to sort more. Harder to sort due to lurking): Tex, pine, Wheme,

Flavour Leaf

, Mylo, Scion

Leaning town on Mylo,

Flavour Leaf

, and texy I think.

Whenether Flavour appeared in a tier on my reads list, every other name was shortened on the tier, while his was left as the full length Flavour Leaf.

(Exceptions: Ausuka one time since shortening Lalendra and Ausuka while not having any longer names would probably attract questions. Also pine once- so I used a lowercase p despite using uppercase for everyone else).

The other tiers on my reads lists involved both shortened names and normal length ones. Many people who are on a Flavour Leaf tier as shown above are included with their full names in other lists sometimes when not on his tier.

Plus my interactions with/around Flavour today, and my early townread on him for no reason etc are other indicators.

[Hopkirk]

@Hopkirk - Just to verify. You are claiming mason with Flavor Leaf?

Do you realize that Flavor Leaf has no "u" in his name?

Hard claiming the mason I've been subtly crumbing since early D1. Yep.
I mixed between U and no U because I'm British. That wasn't part of the crumb.

[Hopkirk]

I think these townreads are shared by me/FL/Ausuka.
Dunn, FA, Creature, Vax, ETL
JJD, Wave

I'd like to hear who these people are scumreading since I don't think we're in an amazing place for this close to deadline.

[Hopkirk]

I think these townreads are shared by me/FL/Ausuka.
Dunn, FA, Creature, Vax, ETL
JJD, Wave

I'd like to hear who these people are scumreading since I don't think we're in an amazing place for this close to deadline.

I think we all townread Gamma and Tex too.

[Hopkirk]

That leaves the following 10.
Golden Robster/Pine/Scion/KK/Wheme/TBG (Arc)/Mylo/Lalendra/Android/Penguin.

I was going to agree that I’m okay leaving KK to tomorrow since it’d be useful to reread him after some time had passed to see if I was conf.biased, but I’m probably not going to be around tomorrow.

[Hopkirk]

Two things give me pause in voting PP/make me want to leave him.

@Rampage: if you can't reasonably expect to be able to play a game eventually (if you expect to be busy for a long time) then sub out.
This isn't even slightly hard to replace into as larges go.
Either you're saying you'll sub out later when it's harder for someone to catch up, or you intend not to do anything and play against your win con, or you're encouraging us to lynch you and playing against your win con.
At the current rate, given the prod dodge rules, you're likely to get force replaced eventually anyway if your activity isn't going to improve.

Rampage subbed out after this, despite multiple days prod dodging and what looked like a desire to stay in. I think that comes more from town.

If it was anyone else but you, I would agree.

Penguin's trajectory isn't as bad as I was thinking when you bear in mind FL's self-admitted meta of fakeclaim a fair bit.

[Hopkirk]

UNVOTE: Hopkirk

[Hopkirk]

Why did i write my name instead of KKs.

UNVOTE: KK

[Hopkirk]

I want to look through Lovebird and Scion to see what their activity looks like as other alignments.
I need to reread Robster at some point. He's a good candidate for active scum.
If I had to sort Pine, I'd say town.
Wheme/Lalendra/ArcTBG aren't likely to be leaving my scumpool.
Android I want to reread.
Mylo/KK I can leave.

[Hopkirk]

By Lovebird I meant Arc. Mixing up flying things. Love slot was town.

[Hopkirk]

am just going to go ahead and claim mason with FL

[Hopkirk]

@ Scion, yeah you're posting a fraction of the amount of your previous games why? What are your reads right now? In the abscence of another reason, all that springs to mind is that you want to fly under the radar.
Also my flavour thing was that I called him 'Flavour Leaf' while shortening the names of everyone else on any line he was on in my reads list.

We could always lynch Wheme right?

Will try and get into more stuff tomorrow.

How long did you intent to wait Rob?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Wheme
Not a fan of the Penguin wagon atm.
Was busier than expected tonight. Should be able to post tomorrow.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Wheme
Not a fan of the Penguin wagon atm.
Was busier than expected tonight. Should be able to post tomorrow.

I can do wheme. Much better than PP. But first tell me why not android.

Probably could.
Want to reread there though.

[Hopkirk]

We could also lynch TBG.

[Hopkirk]

Where is scum here if any?
(Osuka (9) - Dunnstral (77), Texcat, Pine (176),

Almost50

(390), JarJarDrinks (535),

Performer

(623), TheRampage (681),

Hopkirk

(696), Kublai Khan (725))

[Hopkirk]

Wheme/Arc-TBG/Lalendra/Android/Pine/Robster/Mylo. Texcat more if town-Android.

[Hopkirk]

I was just going to say we

could

switch the TBG.

[Hopkirk]

Conditional on their actually being enough active players to lynch scum.

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk please tell me this was a reaction test.

IT would defeat the point of a reaction test if only Scion had a chance to react before I said anything.

[Hopkirk]

Or did you mean the mason claim

[Hopkirk]

Whichever one of us doesn't die can do TBG tomorrow.