Newbie 1876 - Game Over!

[Skygazer]

I'm absolutely waffling on 2.7 at this point. His posts are really bad but I keep thinking that perhaps he's just extremely inept town who isn't dealing well with the pressure of being lynched this early as doctor. If I was doctor I don't think I'd take the prospect of being lynched well at all tbh.

[TrinityNZ]

VOTE: Trinity

Because:

You still have not answered what you think of the role claim.

And because her only two reads were on the two biggest wagons at the point she gave her reads.

You do realise this is my first game? I thought that’s what I was meant to be commenting on.

[Skygazer]

Do you have any other scum reads? Any town reads?

[Formerfish]

I never trust people who very early on throw shade at someone and then claim they don't want to vote them because of the vote count. It looks like a way for scum to test the waters and see if a wagon will stick without actually joining the wagon.
I don't trust that sort of play.

I like this post from brass, it echos my own thoughts, and is the main reason I clapped back at nonny the way that I did, where I was pretty calm in answering Trinity.

Trinity is also townlean, good questions.

Questions are pointless unless that player follows up on them. I’ll have to see if she does that.

I didn't quote a lot of your other posts, but from a tonal standpoint I like you a lot. I get town feels from you. It's cool if you don't feel the same way, people tend to warm up to me once they figure out what I'm about.

[Formerfish]

OK, so...
All right. We have friction between nonny and Formerfish. I want to scumread nonny except that it is reminding me of my last game (1872, especially in day 3).
However this is NOT day 3, this is day 1.
I still want to keep my vote on nonny. This could be a mislynch, but we can afford 2 mislynches, so...
Would you like to defend yourself or claim a power role?

I didn’t get a chance to address this way of thinking in the last game but not every interaction has to have a winner/loser or is scum v town, which is how you make it seem like it is to you. Also, I think you were too aggressive in pushing for nonny to defend or claim because of “protocol” when in reality you were probably just fishing. Scum points for you, and honestly town points for nonny.

Moving forward... UNVOTE: for now just because I want to step back for a while and analyze the situation. It is hard to say "day 1 is always tough for me" after so little experience but I also know that lurking (the most obvious way around this kind of difficulty) is also a scum read.
Are we out of random vote stage yet?

This post is icky as well. He has a (supposed) serious vote on nonny which he unvoted here, and then asks if we are out of RVS yet…

I want to wait and see how the replacement acts before doing anything else here, unless something major happens among the other 8 of us.

This is weird too. Kitty site flaked before even posting, why would you want to wait around to see how they act before doing anything? Like what about that slot was special enough to announce to the thread that you weren’t going to do anything? And then you come out of retirement a whole 2 posts later after Iceman asked you a question. And in that post you are back to calling your vote random

UNVOTE: , because doing a random vote at this point seems like Incorrect Protocol.

I may be losing a grasp of my Numbers townread.

Um, I thought we were supposed to pressure people by voting for them?

To everyone else, it's always good to be using your vote. Pressuring people with a vote may be the only way you can get a proper read on them.
VOTE: brassherald

Is there a reason why adding more pressure to the player

you

voted for (within reason, but I doubt two scum would instantly jump on this wagon unless they were suicidal) causes you to lose the townread?
Or am I misinterpreting something?

Sheeping Bins and then using the excuse that we are supposed to use our votes to pressure people is pretty bad when I can’t remember 2.8 ever saying anything about brass looking like scum. This feels like he is just trying to see what shit will stick on the wall without ever having a read of his own to follow through with. And yes votes are for pressure, but they need to have some substance behind them to be effective. Voting to make someone a wagon without a whisper of a case against them is just an empty threat. And the second part looks like a clear attempt at buddying Bins. It reminds me of a dog looking up at an owner not understanding why they are mad at him for digging through the trash.

Further evidence to support my scum read on 2.8

[Formerfish]

While nUmBeRs post was pretty funny, I'm not sure if it's scum. I mean... just think... what scum really goes "Hey, so, like, claim now, please?".

I think that he might have done just that. The way that he looks at things and how he stands on protocol he may have expected that to be the way things played out.

I'm fine with putting a wagon to L-2 this early.
VOTE: nonny
Early read, this is sus.

Sus, why?
I voted nonny for a reason too, but it was more just tonal. Anything in particular?

After seeing brass revote nonny I remembered this post existed, Bins, did you ever explain this?

I can see him hitting puberty from his first game to his second game. I don't really like how you're voting him even after his explanation leads me to believe this is more just a communication/awkwardness thing. I'm STILL not sure if it's scum, but I'm more just getting the vibe that he's a newb.

I guess it’s just that I saw a very different player from him in the first game. The play that I’ve seen from him this game makes me think he is scum in comparison to the other game where he was town. I don’t know what else to say about a guy who has 1 game under his belt and in his second…

Counterclaim is definitely the right play. All this softing going on is just a mess to deal with later. There's no reason to stall a conf!scum out until the day after, it's honestly going to put us in a much worse position.

Is this the IC talking or your personal opinion? And I don’t know if its just the way you play, but I am getting some distinct flashbacks to a game I think we played together where you were scum. Did we have a game like that? I’m lazy and hope you have a better memory than me. If not I’ll have to bite the bullet and look. It has something to do with your tone. Like here I feel like you could be backing your partners play (which if its true, would probably be your own play) to try and get someone to CC, or again, to show that no one is going to CC because that role is not in the game. And the reason why someone wouldn’t CC here is because if 2.8 is scum fake claiming then the real slim shady gets nked because they stuck their neck out. If 2.8 is going down regardless it’s a much better play for the PRs to keep their traps shut and force scum to guess.

If I had to pick a scumpartner for 2.8 this would be it. Is there enough for me to scum read her on her own? Maybe not. But definitely worth looking at more closely.

[Formerfish]

1) Those are part of my first five posts. There is nothing of substance one can offer in RVS.
2) My being a newbie means I shouldn't be able to understand game theory? I acknowledge that I'm inexperienced, but I don't think it's bad form to offer advice. You don't have to listen to me.
3) It was RVS.
4) She either willfully or unintentionally read scumminess into a blatant joke. I've seen it happen before from town, though.
5) Uh what. Is this an ego thing rn, cuz like I barely know you and I'm not interested.
6) Two people can behave independently. I wasn't defending you.
I gotta say your tone reads as purposefully aggravating as an attempt to pressure me to see what shakes. That can go lamist or earnestly town. But it is not helpful to town at all. My concern is you're gonna start jumping between read to read with this overeager pressure and dominate the thread.

1. My point was that it seemed like you were posting a lot about things that are game related, but not really specific to this game, if that makes sense. I kinda saw it as posting to seem active without saying anything of substance.
2. Wasn’t saying that you shouldn’t know about game theory, just that we have an IC and SEs for that kind of thing, again it goes back to why are

you

posting that kind of stuff instead of playing the game. It could have been a premature thing to look at from my part, but like you said, not much going on early game so things tend to get blown out of proportion.
3. I get that it was RVS, but that doesn’t mean I can’t suspect someone for shitposting (Not saying your posts were shit, they just weren’t really progressing the game at all).
4. I gotcha.
5. It’s not an ego thing, I just think that as the person who was involved with that thing directly if anyone was going to have a major issue with it it would be me. But 4 was a serious question and I liked the answer you gave to support why you felt the way you did, so 5 kinda becomes a moot point.
6. Fair enough, it came off as a chainsaw defense to me, but that isn’t AI.
And yeah, I can be aggressive in that way. Look at my last game (1872 I think?) I had almost 28% of the posts in that game and I flitted form read to read for a bit until I got my legs under me. I explained a little bit about my play sometimes, calling it steamrolling. I do it for effect and for reactions. I don’t know how well it plays yet, but we did win that game as town with 4 of us still alive on day 3. I did get feedback that I was a little too extra in that game, I will attempt to tone it down a bit in volume but hopefully not effectiveness.

Can you describe what intuits to you that I'm town? I feel like I haven't actually said anything AI.

I like this post because I feel like town will more often question baseless town reads. I feel scum do it at times as well, but those are much more infrequent and far between. Scum would, IMO, just take the town read for what its worth and run with it.

I'll take you up on that fight.

I don't want to fight you anymore. Can we make some sweet sweet dance moves together instead?

And by dance I do mean lets talk about some of our other reads in relation to each others to help sort people.

[Formerfish]

Hello all, thank you for what I can only assume will be a very warm welcome.

I mean... I still have a little bit of lean on nonny = Scum, although not as strongly as before..

Why is that?

Is this where you started reading? I find it odd that nothing before post 92 tickled you in any way enough to comment on them.

@2.7: It's not just the self-deprecation (at least for me, I can't speak for anyone else), it's about the weird push on formerfish without a vote (this could potentially be a scum move in that she could be trying to plant the idea of a formerfish lynch without drawing attention to herself by placing a vote/she could be attempting to gain towncred by pointing out how cautious she's being) and the fact that she seems to be more interested in defending herself than scumhunting in her last few posts.

I like this post from sky. It shows a clear idea of why they are finding someone scummy by looking at the motivation behind their words and actions and seeing how they could benefit the player from a scum point of view. I like it because it makes sense and they say it in a way that should be clear to anyone.

Depending on how you answer my first question I am leaning town here, but only very slightly.

[Formerfish]

Not sure how I feel about the role claim. To me role claiming day one is just asking to be killed night 1. You didn't really try to build a defense prior to a role claim. Wouldn't you want to build a defense prior to claiming, claiming does not really help town at this stage. SE or IC if my logic is wrong here please explain.

I liked most of this post, but this part in particular. It makes a lot of sense especially after she just called 2.8 out for saying he had many reasons for voting brass, but would have to go back and look, only to make a reads post where he basically said he only had 1 weak reason. I don’t feel like 2.8 made any real attempt at a defense, or even made an attempt to case anyone who he thought was scum. He just leapt at claiming he was a PR because his idea of protocol says that you don’t lynch one unless there is a CC. I think that his scum partner realized that his ship was sunk and the only way to get anything out of him at this point was to try and claim a pr that A. They know isn’t in the game, so there wouldn’t be a cc (I haven’t looked to see if there are any combos where that’s possible, I’m just brainstorming right now), or B. Picked one that has a higher chance of being CCed so that they could take out the real one if there is one.

[Formerfish]

I feel like brass, Woo and Iceman are town.
Trinity, Sky and nonny are in null territory.
And my mostly likely scum right now are 2.8 and bins.

I am much more confident with my read on 2.8, and my read on bins could change dependent on how 2.8 flips. But thats where my head is at right now.

[GuerillaWoo]

UNVOTE: cuz I'm getting cold feet.

Is it really, really strange that I'm hoping to god 2.7 is town and that he gets killed N1. Feels like this entire claim destroyed town's trajectory. I both don't want to know that I led the wagon on a doctor and I can't imagine the WIFOM we're all gonna go through if he stays alive until D2.

Not sure what I want to do but I'm uncomfortable keeping him at L-1. How about instead of hammering him within the next couple of days we just spend time scumhunting? Cuz I only have Leans and nulls at this point.

VOTE: Trinity

Because:

You still have not answered what you think of the role claim.

And because her only two reads were on the two biggest wagons at the point she gave her reads.

You do realise this is my first game? I thought that’s what I was meant to be commenting on.

Don't worry about what you're meant to do. I kept getting scumread my first game cuz of this, and it wasn't until I just forgot about my own inexperience that I started making legit plays. Might take you a while but honestly, no one's"meant to" be doing everything.

[Formerfish]

UNVOTE: cuz I'm getting cold feet.

This could go the other way though too. Unless you think that both scum are already on the wagon, which I highly doubt, then one of them should have been able to come up with at least a plausible reason to have hammered him already.

[nonny]

You do realise this is my first game? I thought that’s what I was meant to be commenting on.

Trinity, this is still a non-answer. It's okay to be new, it's best to contribute.

Woo: I understand the cold feet, I've been reading "iso"s to see what else stands out.

Interested to see replies to fish's posts, no immediate disagreement with anything said from me.

Can we flesh out the lack of hammer. I haven't played in a while but it still strikes me as odd, I'm used to scum quick hammer and apologize later. Is it more likely scum is playing it safe? Scum is inactive/inexperienced? Scum doesn't want to hammer partner? Scum still holding out for a CC?

Am I missing any reasons? The lack of hammer shows 2.7 more being scum then town from what I see. Not sure the scum would hesitate as much on a town hammer.

[Formerfish]

That's kinda what I was getting at in my last post. The only thing it could be, other than 2.8 is scum and his partner not thinking there was enough to gain from bussing or they think he won't get lynched, is that both scum are on the wagon already, which I see being a very low probability.

[Skygazer]

Is this where you started reading? I find it odd that nothing before post 92 tickled you in any way enough to comment on them.

My first read-through was just a quick skim so I hadn't really developed any strong reads, so I thought I'd try asking a question about something recent. I do have some basic notes from earlier stuff after rereading a couple of times in the past couple of days but I hadn't gotten around to posting them (mostly because it's not entirely relevant considering the bizarre state of the game right now).

The early Guerilla posts were rubbing me the wrong way due to lack of substance and what I had perceived as a defensive tone in 81 but obviously there's a lot of substance coming from him now so... townread.

I really didn't like ff's early aggressive tone but oh my god he's been doing some good scumhunting and it would've been easy to continue lurking as scum but instead he came in with those great last few posts. Townread.

I thought brass's jump onto nonny was a little opportunistic especially considering he simply said "sus." Recently, he hasn't really been doing much to push nonny any further, only using his initial reasoning and calling her suspicious. I'd think town would be more inclined to poke and prod at nonny's more recent post rather than just sit there with the vote. Scumread.

[Skygazer]

I feel like ... Iceman [is] town.

What are you seeing here that I'm not seeing? Ice is completely null to me right now but I'd like more townreads.

[Formerfish]

I feel like ... Iceman [is] town.

What are you seeing here that I'm not seeing? Ice is completely null to me right now but I'd like more townreads.

I'd have to go back and pull actual posts, but mostly it's the way he posts, the tone, the fact that we just played together and I'm seeing a lot of the same behaviors here that he had as town there, and a similar thought process to myself. Like there is one post where he literally said almost the exact same thing I had written I'm response to a post I had just read. It was like reading my own posts from him. So mostly a gut thing.

[Skygazer]

I'd have to go back and pull actual posts, but mostly it's the way he posts, the tone, the fact that we just played together and I'm seeing a lot of the same behaviors here that he had as town there, and a similar thought process to myself. Like there is one post where he literally said almost the exact same thing I had written I'm response to a post I had just read. It was like reading my own posts from him. So mostly a gut thing.

Gotcha, it's weird not knowing anyone or their playstyles.

[Formerfish]

Nah, it's fine. People quickly figure out how to manipulate thier own meta and use it to their advantage. A lot of times you see vets use the relationships they have with other players as weapons. Like if I were scum and had a friend in the game I would know what they were looking for from me and would be able to play that aspect of my game up to get a town read.

Not having that means you have a clean slate to work with and you can avoid any bais or congnative dissonance as a result of those relationships.

[Skygazer]

Nah, it's fine. People quickly figure out how to manipulate thier own meta and use it to their advantage. A lot of times you see vets use the relationships they have with other players as weapons. Like if I were scum and had a friend in the game I would know what they were looking for from me and would be able to play that aspect of my game up to get a town read.

Not having that means you have a clean slate to work with and you can avoid any bais or congnative dissonance as a result of those relationships.

Thanks for the reassurance (:

UNVOTE: cuz I'm getting cold feet.

Wanna sheep my trinity vote?

[Skygazer]

And because her only two reads were on the two biggest wagons at the point she gave her reads.

To flesh this out more, I think those two reads are easy and convenient for scum to make without drawing attention to themselves. She hasn't really posted any other reads and these two reads just seem like she just picked the easiest reads when prompted.

[TrinityNZ]

Doh! I just wrote a long post, went back to look at an earlier page, and seem to have lost the whole thing. I’ll try to type it again, but it’s late here and my husband is lying in bed sighing loudly that I’m keeping him awake, so this version is going to be a bit shorter.

2.7 is looking like the most likely scum to me. I considered transferring my vote to him after his posts started getting a bit desperate after he made the claim, but some had said we should take more time before lynching him, so I’m not sure whether to move my vote to him now or not
Nonny still looks to me like she could be scum, she seems defensive of 2.7 and seemed to be giving him some pointers for him to use in his defence
Bins - I have a slight lean towards her a scum, because she hasn’t been active. She reminds me of a quote from West Wing that I heard tonight - ‘those who know don’t speak’
FF, brass - am leaning towards them as town, as they have been pretty aggressive, and the other half of that quote is something like ‘those who speak don’t know’
Stargazer, guerilla, iceman - slight townlean at this point

[brassherald]

Okay, Formerfish is much better with those strings of posts. And he does have a point, the townlean on Trinity was because of questions, but now Trinity really has not followed up on those posts with anything. I'm switching the two of them to Formerfish townlean, Trinity scumlean.

VOTE: Iceman

Iceman seems to be slipping by without doing much. He's voted 2.7 and well, I summarized his iso in 3 words. Top scumread right now, considering recent posts.

[Skygazer]

Nonny still looks to me like she could be scum, she seems defensive of 2.7 and seemed to be giving him some pointers for him to use in his defence

1) Do you have any specific examples of this? She's been consistently pushing him and has her vote on him and I haven't seen her defend 2.7 so I'm not buying this at all
2) As it's been said before, scum can talk to each other privately so I don't see why she'd be coaching him publicly if she was coaching him

[Bins]

Hi all, been in Paris. I’ll post tomorrow when I’m back at work!

Haven’t read the last two pages. But there’s no reason to rush anything just yet.

In the future please let us know if you are going to be away like this. It takes only a few seconds to do a simple "V/LA a few days due to (reason)" post. -Mod