SUPP 2017 MAFIA: COMPLETE

[Commander Shepard]

Why are you so concerned with appearing town rather than just playing to a town wincon in order to just help town win?

Super Pro Tip, do town things, and town reads will follow, this much concern about being townread by people troubles me. It troubles me quite a bit.

I understand why you'd be concerned about this but you also need to understand where I'm coming from. Even the best townies get mislynched sometimes; being townread isn't always as simple as doing pro-town things, sometimes it's a matter of presenting your thought process in a way that allows others to understand how it comes from a town perspective.

I'm concerned about appearing town because I've been disengaged from the game to the point where there's an understandable amount of paranoia about my alignment, and when I started getting back into the game doing pro-town things, people still called me scum because I didn't have enough certainty and they didn't like my question-based approach.

My sense is that people are getting caught up in the way I'm presenting my thoughts instead of actually looking at what I'm saying, so I'm presenting basically the exact same information except in the form of cases. Like, I had said most of the stuff in my PP case before. There's not really much new stuff there. I just put the information together in a different way so that players who can't read between the lines see what I'm saying and are better able to understand my thought process.

does anyone here have experience with scum Shoshin? this post just ruined my scumread but it could be faked by someone with any sort of reasonable skill at doing so.

I just finished a game with scum!shoshin, and while it feels similar in terms of general content, the tone behind it is pretty different, especially in a post like this one. I also resonate a lot with the being disengaged but wanting to be townread. She was one of my townreads D1, and she still is. I think it's a huge mistake to go after her.

Also disagree with lynching Fire today. I agree he's the most likely Scum out of the 4 linked by roles, + Maria's claim, but if he's town, leaving him alive forces the mafia to either get copped or deal with him for us. We've got way less dangerous scummy lynches like PP. I'd also be ok with seeing Shepard swing. I had a weak town read on Nahdia but I really don't like how much Shepard has avoided commenting on PP directly and obviously I don't like his push on Shoshin. #chainsaw

I will 1v1 wallpost against anyone who wants to come for

TW's

life atm.

ftr, this is not helpful. if someone genuinely wants to scumread tw, stifling that discussion is not good

Lol this is flawed as fuck and I need to see if it’s town flawed or scum flawed

If I comment on PP oh no! I am scum for not catching up!
If I comment on stuff other than PP oh no! Must be chainsaw for not talking about PP.

No one has answered the question I asked and no one has said it is a bad question Ergo the push is good.

[Commander Shepard]

let's do thisssssssss

scores are approximate since the double-weighted scores are not an exact doubling of themselves (evidenced by Pine's slot; to get his average he'd have needed a 0 from Reuben/Lovebird which we know is not correct).
even so these are probably close enough to the actual scores that I'm feeling comfortable.

Position	Name	Rank
1st	Chara	8.29
2nd	the worst	7.19
3rd	Taly	6.71
4th	TehBrawlGuy	6.29
5th	Dunnstral	6.25
6th	Punreader	6.06
7th	Nahdia	6.00
8th	DeasVail	5.56
9th	Espeonage	5.56
10th	Shoshin	5.44
11th	MariaR	5.38
12th	Pine	4.94
13th	ManWithNoName	4.75
14th	Fire Assassin	4.71
15th	Vaxkiller	4.13
16th	PenguinPower	4.06
17th	Lovebird	2.00
18th	NicoRobin	1.63

Spoiler: data tabled (more #aesthetic than useful but....fight me)

X axis : receiver of score
Y axis : giver of score

	RECEIVER
GIVER	TehBrawlGuy	Taly	Punreader	MariaR	DeasVail	Espeonage	Dunnstral	Nahdia	the worst	Pine	Shoshin	Fire Assassin	Lovebird	Chara	ManWithNoName	Vaxkiller	PenguinPower	NicoRobin
TehBrawlGuy	10	1	10	8	5	0	9	6	2	10	7	4	5	6	3	4	0	0
Taly	5	10	10	6	6	0	2	4	9	5	8	1	3	10	7	0	0	4
Punreader	0	10	10	6	4	6	9	8	5	0	7	5	2	10	1	4	0	3
MariaR	9	4	10	10	5	10	5	0	8	2	4	3	0	6	6	1	7	0
DeasVail	3	10	10	0	10	2	4	5	9	4	8	5	1	6	7	6	0	0
Espeonage	9	8	4	5	6	10	10	4	7	0	3	0	1	5	2	10	6	0
Dunnstral	2	9	7	6	4	8	10	5	5	4	3	10	0	10	6	0	1	0
Nahdia	4	5	10	3	5	6	2	10	7	4	6	9	1	10	0	0	8	0
the worst	6	10	5	8	6	9	2	7	10	4	3	1	0	10	0	4	5	0
Pine	10	9	0					0		10		8		10			0
Shoshin	8	10	5	0	6	3	6	4	9	1	10	2	0	10	7	5	0	4
Fire Assassin	8	2	3	9	5	0	4	10	7	4	6	10	1	10	6	0	4	0
Lovebird
Chara	10	10	8	6	5	4	5	9	7	0	6	4	3	10	0	0	2	1
ManWithNoName	10	10	4	1	0	0	6	5	7	4	8	5	3	9	10	6	0	2
Vaxkiller	0	0	7	0	6	4	2	10	5	10	4	9	5	3	6	10	8	1
PenguinPower	9	0	0	10	8	7	10	3	6	2	4	4	5	0	5	6	10	1
NicoRobin	4	6	0	8	8	20	14	12	12	20	0	0	2	16	10	10	18	10
	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE	AVERAGE
	6.29	6.71	6.06	5.38	5.56	5.56	6.25	6.00	7.19	4.94	5.44	4.71	2.00	8.29	4.75	4.13	4.06	1.63
	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS	TENS
	4	7	6	2	1	3	3	3	1	4	1	2	0	9	2	3	1	1
	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES	ZEROES
	2	2	3	3	1	4	0	2	0	3	1	2	4	1	3	5	7	8
unaccounted votes	1	1	1	2	2	2	2	1	2	1	2	1	2	1	2	2	1	2
unaccounted points	???	???	???	???	???	???	???	???	???	0	???	???	???	???	???	???	???	11
av. unacc. score	???	???	???	???	???	???	???	???	???	0	???	???	???	???	???	???	???	5.5

Putting this here for my reference

[Taly]

can someone tell that im frustrated and i want help

[Shoshin]

Hey Taly, I've been trying to talk with you for a few pages now, are you around?

[Taly]

im typing a post directed to the last 4 people in this thread rn

[Fire Assassin]

Protected from people below them, kills people ranked higher. That screams “self-aligned” to me.

I’m not opposed to leashing it.

This is the only thing close to a read I could find in Pine’s ISO.

I could buy scum and Punreader shooting this.

Especially if SK.

I also find that with everyone giving their reads list Fire’s claim seems possible and now need to look at Maria’s. Fire still gives me the heebie jeebies of reaper influence though.

What?

[Taly]

1)

Because why would

Maria

-scum fakeclaim an innocent on

Vax

of all people, one of the most suspected people of the game?

2)

Because why would

Maria

-scum merge with

Chara

of all people, one of the most townread people of the game?

3)

Because why would

Maria

-scum claim cop at all, or challenge at a cop claim like

Fire's

?

4)

Because why would

Maria

-scum openly be OK with lying about reads D1 since it'd mean her scumself wouldn't have accurate thread info. on town's mindset?

5)

Because why would

Maria

-scum counter a

PP

-town wagon, or a

PP

-scum wagon with her own scumread-

Nahdia

wagon??

There's lots of plausible scum narratives to answer those questions.

1) If Vax is town, Maria could be buddying. If Vax is scum, Maria could be protecting a teammate.

But is there anything else that could outright suggest a potential

Vax/Maria

team?

And I guess I can see that... but with

Maria

claiming cop - despite her alignment, town would be getting to-some-degree valid results periodically throughout the game, because if

Maria

-scum is lying about results or claim, we'd have concrete evidence to suspect that.

I just don't see a long-term benefit to scum claiming cop?

I still don't like

Maria/Fire's

immediate

"this is a fakeclaim"

reaction to each other, but yeah.

2) I don't really understand the merge thing or what happened there... if Maria chose to merge with Chara, she could be buddying Chara... and besides, the question you should ask is, how is Maria both a cop and a merger?

I don't think there's a defined post that states

Chara

did/didn't do the merge? Did

Maria

claim she did it explicitly?

Also,

MNWW/Screenplay

used a role that affected

Me/TW

so that's what I'm wondering.

3) To push a mislynch on Fire. To create chaos. To make you think she's town based on role. There's plenty of games where scum claim or counterclaim cop.

Fire

and

Maria

had pretty similar reactions to each other, since this is role madness, I don't really think it's impossible for them both to be town. I just don't like their play at several points, and I think otherwise they're claims best serve town if alive.

4) Scum openly lie about reads on D1 so that they're immune from suspicion. I don't understand what you mean by "accurate thread info" when scum's goal isn't to help town, it's to hurt town. It hurts town when you openly lie about reads so that nobody can form accurate reads about you.

Because with rankings, scum would want certain people dead, or deaths that would throw the town off.

Giving reads and viewpoints EoD1 helps scum articulate where and why they want their rankings done.

When I said I'd be OK with reasonable lying EoD1, I meant people who WOULD be lying should and had to open up D2. I haven't seen much that would indicate someone lying.

5) If both PP and Nahdia are town, she could be setting up a mislynch on Nahdia based on PP's flip. If PP's scum and Nahdia's town, she could be redirecting towards a mislynch while protecting her teammate. If PP's town and Nahdia's scum, she could be looking for town credit while also believing that PP's going to get lynched, not Nahdia.

I've seen scum do everything that Maria's doing. None of it is very indicative of alignment either way.

Can you find town-motivation in what she's doing?

Taly, answer the flipside of your question: Why would Maria-town be okay with lying about reads on D1 since it'd mean her townself wouldn't have accurate thread info. on town's mindset? Or to put it another way, who do you think cares more about accurate thread info, town or scum?

1)

To not give scum information,

Maria

strikes me as the player to think and observe versus show and tell her thoughts. I don't think scum promoting this would be beneficial for them.

2)

Personally, I care a hella lot about accuracy as scum. Either I position myself to be accurate, or I find reasons to justify why I'm not. I don't care about accuracy much as town. As long as I lynch scum EoD.

I also don't vote hop as scum.

I'm a little uncomfortable that people have lightly thrown theories in the thread with me and a scumteam-mate, and then have never mentioned them again.

I'm highly suspect of Fire at this point

Interesting change of pace.
In ten pages you will be townreading me

I just don't understand your perspective in this game.

You have valid reason to believe that

Espe

is town and you still scumread him.

You know 2 people saying the other is fakeclaiming is a dichotomy, but deciphering that isn't your big focus(???) - judging that you just L-1'd

PP

You seem to be on/off active, and I don't know what to make of you, to be honest.

Who do you think could be scum with Fire then?

This is another reason why I won't vote him... I can't really say.

If Punreader shot Pine then either
A) Punreader is scum
B) Punreader is town and scum also shot Pine
C) Scum shot someone else and they lived

And also why can’t there be two one shot cops in games are both claiming to be full blown cops?

None of them specified it was 1-shot, so I believe they are full-blown cops.

Furthermore if you believe there can’t be two cops why is this not a 1v1 for both claimed cops?

Actually, I've made multiple posts entertaining this idea and questioning

Maria/Fire

as a pair, and it's driving me a bit crazy. Nobody seems interested too interested in that though...

1287 to 1294

They seem to spout so much about how the other is fakeclaiming, but it seems like they're actively ignoring each other.

I will 1v1 wallpost against anyone who wants to come for

TW's

life atm.

ftr, this is not helpful. if someone genuinely wants to scumread tw, stifling that discussion is not good

You're right, stifling discussion is not good, but so far, there's been little to no discussion made about him.

Right now, I'm confident about

TW

and nobody's really pushed back on me over this thought unlike half my other townreads.

Also, in reference to

Screen's

message role thing, I'm feeling better about him.

[Commander Shepard]

Vi

Welcome, NicoRobin.

People care about what you think. To be specific, they're all clamoring to know what you think of them.
You are

Vi

, the

Ranking Townie

.

Alignment: Town

-- You win when all threats to town are dead, and there is at least one member of town alive.

Passive: Public Rankings

(

Get 'em while they're still fresh!

) -- Your D1 rankings of other people will be made public in-thread and are assigned double weight.

17. NicoRobin

(TOWN)

Average:

2.06

Number of 10s:

1

Number of 0s:

8

With that, Night 1 begins immediately and ends in (expired on 2018-06-20 21:38:00).

0
4
3
0
0
0
0
0
0

4
0

1
2
1
1
20
AVERAGE
2.25
TENS
1
ZEROES
8


Something is off here based on the numbers provided by worst. The averages are wrong. Did someone sanity check these?

[Commander Shepard]

The number of points for NicoRobin should be 35/17 to get 2.05. There's too many numbers there.

[brassherald]

Vi

Welcome, NicoRobin.

People care about what you think. To be specific, they're all clamoring to know what you think of them.
You are

Vi

, the

Ranking Townie

.

Alignment: Town

-- You win when all threats to town are dead, and there is at least one member of town alive.

Passive: Public Rankings

(

Get 'em while they're still fresh!

) -- Your D1 rankings of other people will be made public in-thread and are assigned double weight.

17. NicoRobin

(TOWN)

Average:

2.06

Number of 10s:

1

Number of 0s:

8

With that, Night 1 begins immediately and ends in (expired on 2018-06-20 21:38:00).

0
4
3
0
0
0
0
0
0

4
0

1
2
1
1
20
AVERAGE
2.25
TENS
1
ZEROES
8


Something is off here based on the numbers provided by worst. The averages are wrong. Did someone sanity check these?

We are missing the information from the other two dead people.

[ManWithNoName]

Vi

Welcome, NicoRobin.

People care about what you think. To be specific, they're all clamoring to know what you think of them.
You are

Vi

, the

Ranking Townie

.

Alignment: Town

-- You win when all threats to town are dead, and there is at least one member of town alive.

Passive: Public Rankings

(

Get 'em while they're still fresh!

) -- Your D1 rankings of other people will be made public in-thread and are assigned double weight.

17. NicoRobin

(TOWN)

Average:

2.06

Number of 10s:

1

Number of 0s:

8

With that, Night 1 begins immediately and ends in (expired on 2018-06-20 21:38:00).

0
4
3
0
0
0
0
0
0

4
0

1
2
1
1
20
AVERAGE
2.25
TENS
1
ZEROES
8


Something is off here based on the numbers provided by worst. The averages are wrong. Did someone sanity check these?

We are missing the information from the other two dead people.

Whoops.

[Shoshin]

I just don't see a long-term benefit to scum claiming cop?

I've seen scum claim cop on D2 and win the game, surviving until endgame. The benefits are pretty clear: you get to control who gets lynched, and you get some townreads without much deeper questioning.

[Commander Shepard]

Vi

Welcome, NicoRobin.

People care about what you think. To be specific, they're all clamoring to know what you think of them.
You are

Vi

, the

Ranking Townie

.

Alignment: Town

-- You win when all threats to town are dead, and there is at least one member of town alive.

Passive: Public Rankings

(

Get 'em while they're still fresh!

) -- Your D1 rankings of other people will be made public in-thread and are assigned double weight.

17. NicoRobin

(TOWN)

Average:

2.06

Number of 10s:

1

Number of 0s:

8

With that, Night 1 begins immediately and ends in (expired on 2018-06-20 21:38:00).

0
4
3
0
0
0
0
0
0

4
0

1
2
1
1
20
AVERAGE
2.25
TENS
1
ZEROES
8


Something is off here based on the numbers provided by worst. The averages are wrong. Did someone sanity check these?

We are missing the information from the other two dead people.

Whoops.

We're missing information from Lovebird yeah, but it looks like she didn't submit to get the averages to line up. We have Nico's and we have Pine's except for a few gaps?
If I put in 0's for Pine and Lovebird it doesn't make sense.

We need a number that x/y * 2.06 is roughly an integer.
x = y * 2.06 where X and Y are both integers. Going through the numbers means 17 is the only valid one meaning lovebird didn't submit.

[Commander Shepard]

Or it could be 18 and 37 or 17 and 35

[Commander Shepard]

The sum of the NicoRobin column is 36. Something is hinky there. If Lovebird submitted it's a 1 for Nico but if she didn't then the numbers are too high.

[Commander Shepard]

RadiantCowbells

Welcome, ReubenWasFine.

You're a force to be reckoned with.
You are

RadiantCowbells

, the

Loud Doctor

.

Alignment: Town

-- You win when all threats to town are dead, and there is at least one member of town alive.

Active: I Like Doctors

(

And so you are one.

) -- Twice during the game, you can target someone during the Night Phase to protect them from the first kill attempt on them. They will be informed that you visited them.

18. Lovebird

(TOWN)

Average:

1.78

Number of 10s:

0

Number of 0s:

4

If Lovebird submitted, it's a mandatory 10 for herself.
If we assume Pine put in a zero that makes the average
2.33333 repeating

To get 1.78 you'd need 32 points total. There's 32 there before Lovebird did anything. So if Lovebird submitted we have 10 too many, if she's treated as all zeroes then the NicoRobin column sum is off and all the zeroes calculations are wrong.

Something is wrong with these numbers.

[MariaR]

But then Fire claims and he's scum because there can't be two cops? I thought claims weren't AI... I thought Maria was open to crazy setup stuff... but nah, guess not.

I said this before and I'll say it again. I didn't believe fire was a cop because of his invest result more so then him claiming cop itself.

[Shoshin]

You thought a guilty on Esp wasn't plausible?

[Commander Shepard]

But then Fire claims and he's scum because there can't be two cops? I thought claims weren't AI... I thought Maria was open to crazy setup stuff... but nah, guess not.

I said this before and I'll say it again. I didn't believe fire was a cop because of his invest result more so then him claiming cop itself.

Thus begs the question, why aren't you voting Fire? And why aren't you looking for Fire's partners if you believe that? Why is this day not a 1v1 between you both if you believe he can't be a cop.

[MariaR]

Her posts feel more defensive than scumhunting oriented.

Can you show me what defensive posting you're talking about? That could just be more playstyle given I'm a very reactive player but I'd like to see what you're on about.

On D1, she said she was openly lying about reads/rankings in a way that makes me think she's trying to avoid commiting to any positions, a pretty typical scum pattern.

I don't see why this is an issue when scum me can just give you reads and stick to them for the most part because it's kinda easy to do that. Well at least for me given I find scum easier than town but you wouldn't know that if you didn't know me

She quickly jumped onto Nahdia's reasoning to end the day without wanting to scumhunt.

I have no idea where you're going with this? Yes I did agree with Nahdia that the day should end early but I don't get where you got the "without scumhunting" part I wanted the day to end early so people didn't second guess reads.

And the way she voted Fire today after he claimed didn't square with the way she was thinking on D1 about the game's roles/setup (i.e. on D1 she's going on about how the scum might have roles to screw with our rankings, which is a really speculative position, but then when Fire claims, she's suddenly can't speculate about multiple cops?),

Na more cops isn't the problem godfathers can be a thing etc etc I really disliked his result and the way he went about it. The fact he unvoted after my claim was...interesting

[Commander Shepard]

Her posts feel more defensive than scumhunting oriented.

Can you show me what defensive posting you're talking about? That could just be more playstyle given I'm a very reactive player but I'd like to see what you're on about.

On D1, she said she was openly lying about reads/rankings in a way that makes me think she's trying to avoid commiting to any positions, a pretty typical scum pattern.

I don't see why this is an issue when scum me can just give you reads and stick to them for the most part because it's kinda easy to do that. Well at least for me given I find scum easier than town but you wouldn't know that if you didn't know me

She quickly jumped onto Nahdia's reasoning to end the day without wanting to scumhunt.

I have no idea where you're going with this? Yes I did agree with Nahdia that the day should end early but I don't get where you got the "without scumhunting" part I wanted the day to end early so people didn't second guess reads.

And the way she voted Fire today after he claimed didn't square with the way she was thinking on D1 about the game's roles/setup (i.e. on D1 she's going on about how the scum might have roles to screw with our rankings, which is a really speculative position, but then when Fire claims, she's suddenly can't speculate about multiple cops?),

Na more cops isn't the problem godfathers can be a thing etc etc I really disliked his result and the way he went about it. The fact he unvoted after my claim was...interesting

Why would it matter if people second guess reads? Making sure reads are solid is a core foundation of the game.

[MariaR]

You thought a guilty on Esp wasn't plausible?

Check my rankings esp was one of my top townreads and his reaction felt legit to me. I felt it was more likely fire was bsing in some way IE gambit or just fakeclaiming then having a srs guilty on one of my top townreads yes. If it was on someone I was scumreading I wouldn't have had an issue.

But then Fire claims and he's scum because there can't be two cops? I thought claims weren't AI... I thought Maria was open to crazy setup stuff... but nah, guess not.

I said this before and I'll say it again. I didn't believe fire was a cop because of his invest result more so then him claiming cop itself.

Thus begs the question, why aren't you voting Fire? And why aren't you looking for Fire's partners if you believe that? Why is this day not a 1v1 between you both if you believe he can't be a cop.

He took it back because his is based on rankings that we can not conf and that means the base of the strong sr is gone. I can still see fire flipping scum easy because I would like to think he's decent at the game when he tries. For now he's just in a base of a scumread while I sr your slot

much

more

[Commander Shepard]

You thought a guilty on Esp wasn't plausible?

Check my rankings esp was one of my top townreads and his reaction felt legit to me. I felt it was more likely fire was bsing in some way IE gambit or just fakeclaiming then having a srs guilty on one of my top townreads yes. If it was on someone I was scumreading I wouldn't have had an issue.

But then Fire claims and he's scum because there can't be two cops? I thought claims weren't AI... I thought Maria was open to crazy setup stuff... but nah, guess not.

I said this before and I'll say it again. I didn't believe fire was a cop because of his invest result more so then him claiming cop itself.

Thus begs the question, why aren't you voting Fire? And why aren't you looking for Fire's partners if you believe that? Why is this day not a 1v1 between you both if you believe he can't be a cop.

He took it back because his is based on rankings that we can not conf and that means the base of the strong sr is gone. I can still see fire flipping scum easy because I would like to think he's decent at the game when he tries. For now he's just in a base of a scumread while I sr your slot

much

more

So you scumread more than someone who to you is mechanically confirmed scum? Seems legit.

Sarcasm detected.

[MariaR]

Her posts feel more defensive than scumhunting oriented.

Can you show me what defensive posting you're talking about? That could just be more playstyle given I'm a very reactive player but I'd like to see what you're on about.

On D1, she said she was openly lying about reads/rankings in a way that makes me think she's trying to avoid commiting to any positions, a pretty typical scum pattern.

I don't see why this is an issue when scum me can just give you reads and stick to them for the most part because it's kinda easy to do that. Well at least for me given I find scum easier than town but you wouldn't know that if you didn't know me

She quickly jumped onto Nahdia's reasoning to end the day without wanting to scumhunt.

I have no idea where you're going with this? Yes I did agree with Nahdia that the day should end early but I don't get where you got the "without scumhunting" part I wanted the day to end early so people didn't second guess reads.

And the way she voted Fire today after he claimed didn't square with the way she was thinking on D1 about the game's roles/setup (i.e. on D1 she's going on about how the scum might have roles to screw with our rankings, which is a really speculative position, but then when Fire claims, she's suddenly can't speculate about multiple cops?),

Na more cops isn't the problem godfathers can be a thing etc etc I really disliked his result and the way he went about it. The fact he unvoted after my claim was...interesting

Why would it matter if people second guess reads? Making sure reads are solid is a core foundation of the game.

I think the moment town goes into apathy and starts second guessing reads and gives less effort is the moment town loses games. If you keep questioning yourself you'll never get results. Debating reads between players is a base part of mafia but if you keep going "what if" every 5 minutes on a read you don't get anything done.

[MariaR]

So you scumread more than someone who to you is mechanically confirmed scum? Seems legit.

No one is mechanically confirmed scum.