Open 729 - Cul de Sac!

[Toranaga]

I love this game "Hey lets vote up this guy! " * L-1 * "woah guys im town * "Oh hey a squirrel!" *squirrel is now at L-1

haha

VOTE: mutantdevle

[Myloninja13]

VOTE: Mutant

[Almost50]

@Tor: Does it not tell you anything that half the players are willing to lynch you? I mean, let's assume you're town.. you haven't shown it! This is hard for me to grasp bc I know you

can

obv!town. Give me some effort. Give some analysis. Give me something to make me go "Oh, this is Town!Tor for sure. I won't be lynching this one."

This game is about reads and impressions (and especially so when there are no PRs). Let's

hypothetically

assume BuJaber is scum. Good for him and he deserves to win because he managed to conceal it and looked townie enough I wouldn't even consider lynching him in a 3-p LyLo.

Now everybody please stop whining and blaming everyone else but yourselves. If this game had PRs I'd understand some would not want to obv!town so they won't get NK'd before they deliver some results. In mountainous though all you have to do is obv!town and scum hunt w/o conservation. Am I right or amirite?

[mutantdevle]

Idk, when you say "I'm not really playing the game or reading it and I don't have real reads" three times in two consecutive posts it starts to feel fake and planned

I don't see where I did that 3 times in 2 posts so I'm assuming you are just being hyperbolic about how I keep stating I'm not currently interested in this game in the slightest. Maybe I keep stating that because people keep expecting me to have content.

Wait! Are not interested in getting interested or you just not interested but interested in being interested? Now that's an interesting question.

I'm not really interested in being interested tbh. This is hardly my style of game. I was expecting only being able to talk to 2 people for the majority of the game and form reads on others based on a convoluted game of Chinese whispers

[mutantdevle]

I'm not really paying attention to anyone's posting.

Because I "the equivalent of" scum read people. I would not be able to explain any of those reads though.

I was so lazy with that vote tag that I quoted and edited Almost50's post to do it.

^ these were the three times

I think you have a very loose definition of mentioning I'm not paying attention. Saying, I am not able to explain reads comes under that only at a push and stating I was lazy with a vote tag is hardly a notion of not paying attention. If anything, it states how I am not putting effort in. (though, ironically, I put more effort into typing that second sentence than I would have done if I typed the vote myself).

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: Mutant

Why the fuck are you voting for me? I would not expect this from you Mylo.

[Toranaga]

@Tor: Does it not tell you anything that half the players are willing to lynch you? I mean, let's assume you're town.. you haven't shown it! This is hard for me to grasp bc I know you

can

obv!town. Give me some effort. Give some analysis. Give me something to make me go "Oh, this is Town!Tor for sure. I won't be lynching this one."

This game is about reads and impressions (and especially so when there are no PRs). Let's

hypothetically

assume BuJaber is scum. Good for him and he deserves to win because he managed to conceal it and looked townie enough I wouldn't even consider lynching him in a 3-p LyLo.

Now everybody please stop whining and blaming everyone else but yourselves. If this game had PRs I'd understand some would not want to obv!town so they won't get NK'd before they deliver some results. In mountainous though all you have to do is obv!town and scum hunt w/o conservation. Am I right or amirite?

IDK what more can be wanted from me. I subbed in not too long ago, I didn't read the whole game and the case on me isn't about my posting but my predecessor. I have been towny and the players who bothered to read into what I'm doing are townreading me. I got these vibes from awoo, lavos, even from unrealseal when we started interacting. the people who are voting me are either doing it for association, because they don't like aa9 or because they're just scum hopping on a wagon. I'm doing my best with what I got, which was a highly POE'd down slot on a game with only 2 scum and no scum flips. I've posted way more than my predecessor did, but are you trying to read into it? are you genuinely trying to parse me out based off my posting? cause I don't think you are. I'm not gonna read the entire game and come up with the solutions to everything, but as the day progresses I feel I'm getting a better handle of the game, and that's all I can do right now.

if you can't townread me, that's fine. I expect you to be logic driven and unlikely to tone read. I've seen your TvT deathtunnels before and there's not much I can do about it.

[Toranaga]

I've managed to sort of metadive duck, and got the impression he is more free flowy as a villager and less likely to post correct formulaic stuff when he rands town. as a wolf, his play is more like this and less like his towngame. it's kind of a thin read cause I didn't read any of the games with close attention neither did I read this one in context, only ISOs.

I've also metadived unrealseal but lots of things are ongoing so I can't comment. gun to my head he is town here. I like his solvey post to me.

also @unrealseal, are you someone's alt or a new account?

[mutantdevle]

I've managed to sort of metadive duck,

I've also metadived unrealseal

Me next, me next!

[Toranaga]

I've managed to sort of metadive duck,

I've also metadived unrealseal

Me next, me next!

you know what

ok

[BuJaber]

Tora it would be unhelpful and very spammy if I literally wrote every pair I don't think can be scum together. So me not saying it about other people doesn't mean I don't have it for them. I may or may not. It's just not relevant right now.

Also it doesn't matter how many people I think you can be scummy with. I might think someone is scum but at the same time not come up with a single plausible team for them. That doesn't necessarily mean they're town. They could just be very good at keeping their partners a secret.

Fact is there are certain things that are scammy about you and yes I didn't like your predecessor's play. It'd be wrong to treat you like a different player. It will always be more difficult to townread a player that replaces into a highly suspected slot. Because they will be emotional, they will be defensive, they will be pressured. Under normal circumstances those may be easier to read depending on the context. But when it is a replace-in it is so much harder.

But let's talk about you specifically for a second and keep aa9 to the side. You seem to respond to every post but you either exaggerate or or overreact or simply miss the point of the post you react to.

You paraphrase the argument(s) of the person you respond to in a way that loses some of its key elements and/or make it sound negative. You did it with A50 and you did it with me. Even with mutant you counted 1 post as 2 just to make your point.

Maybe you are town. Maybe you are genuinenly trying to point out where people are wrong. But I just can't see it so far. Because it feels like you are deliberately trying to dismiss the arguments against you by attacking the person behind them not explaining why the argument is wrong or trying to understand the situation from their perspective. It comes off hostile and accusatory rather than cooperative and logical.

Even your scumhunting.. maybe I missed a post but if I recall the only thing you said about seal is "does anybody have a reason to townread him?". Where's the reason to scumread him?

Plus you are appealing to emotion to defend yourself. Guilt-trap defence.

I can't tell you how you should be showing us you're town because there is no specific formula. But I have to see some sign that you are following a pro-town agenda. That you are interested in pursuing the truth, avoiding mislynches, and finding scum. That you are willing to cooperate and understand that people will play differently than you and see things from a different pov.

You want to know my exact position on awoo and seal?
I have been attempting to use the PTs to get more acvurate reads on both of them. To do so effectively I need them both alive. This is because they have talked about each other. I'm not ready to explain further.

Plus I don't think seal has done anything scummy yet.

Awoo maybe. I can think of several reasons to want to lynch him. But there are also several others that hold me back.

Finally, I try to learn from every game I play. And from the last few I've played as town, I found out that I tend to find at least 1 scum based on RVS / first few pages of the game. Now some of those may have been coincidences or pure luck. But some were definitely not.

I have been pinged by the first few posts of aa9, duck, wingedcatgirl, and nsg. I tend to think that no two scum in the same game will have the exact same tells, so I have been playing with the assunption that 1 one of them is scum. This also matched up with my lynch analysis that 1 scum was on and 1 was off. Because all 3 of duck, aa9, catgirl were on the wagon.

Nsg flipped town, and duck I sort of started to feel less strongly about because he has made some decent posts lately. Also I can't come up with a convincing reason why Dino (and now A50) would defend him so strongly if they are scum. Which means either they are town and completely fooled by him or he is indeed town. (I don't really think they are the sort of player to defend a buddy like that, nor the sort to whitenight/buddy Duck like that... but I guess I could be wrong).
So that leaves aa9 and catgirl. And I've told you why I prefer you over lavos at the time being. (Though I'm definitely not townreading lavos)

[BuJaber]

So let me get this straight UD felt pretty sure dino is town, enough to discuss some plan with him while at the same time refusing to tell Dino who his other neighbor is?

Is that what went on in the PT?

Sorry if I missed it @A50 but did you respond to this?

[Toranaga]

I've managed to sort of metadive duck,

I've also metadived unrealseal

Me next, me next!

you know what

ok

viewtopic.php?t=75812&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

I'm reading this and I don't think I can parse you out by metadiving you at all cause this looks a lot like what you're displaying in that game. is there anything you think is either a towntell or a scumtell for you that you're showing here or there?

[Toranaga]

I'm not doing emotional posting on purpose. I am a bit frustrated that I replaced into this for obvious reasons. I'm not missing the context of A50's push on my slot. it's literally an associative read that he wants either me or lavos flipped for. he explained in detail that it's just that.

speaking of me voting unrealseal and asking if there was anything towny about him, combined with you not seeing a town agenda in my play: I have unvoted unrealseal when he was at L-1 and asked him to play the game because I got a townvibe from his posting. as a response, he provided reasons for everything he did, which I liked and found it comes from town more often than not. this was me being pro-town, no? especially if, as you seem to believe, US is town?

I'm not going to case people hard when I don't know them and am just reading their ISOs. people can be illogical, weird and wrong and none of these things mean they're scum. Everyone I'm parsing out in real time, trying to interact with them. I did this with awoo. I did this with unrealseal. I'm willing to believe you and lavos are genuine. it's a different playstyle, that might not work for you, might not even work on MS, but it's how I solve. I can stop at any point and read the entire thread, but it's not something I'm willing to do right now. if it gets me lynched, then so be it. I tried harder than everyone this gameday, I have no regrets.

[Scioness Sajj]

VOTE: Mutant

Why the fuck are you voting for me? I would not expect this from you Mylo.

Oh no the betrayal

[BuJaber]

I don't care that you play differently. Hell that's part of the fun.

Just wanted you to know how some things coming from you are being interpretted by me (and possibly others but I can't speak to that).

Can you show me where A50 said that you and lavos are the scumteam? That's a significant thing to note.
The way I understood his post is that he thinks lavos is scummy for unvoting. And if lavos is scum you might be or it might be the other reason he unvoted which is that you aren't. So he's 50-50 on you IF lavos flips scum. But if he said somewhere else that he thinks you are both guilty and are the team I definitely missed that one.

And for the record yes. That thing with you and seal would be an example of townie attitude. This particular one is not a slam dunk because scum can also back off when they know their case is weak but more examples of posts like that could tip the scale in your favor.

Do you have a reason to think lavos is town?

[Almost50]

So let me get this straight UD felt pretty sure dino is town, enough to discuss some plan with him while at the same time refusing to tell Dino who his other neighbor is?

Is that what went on in the PT?

Sorry if I missed it @A50 but did you respond to this?

I probably didn't. Here's what happened:

1- UD asks if there's a special approach that should improve our chances to win (Dino does that a lot in open setups)
2- Dino suggests optimizing the use of PTs and asks who UD's other neighbor is.
3- UD declines based on it being too early for him to know Dino's alignment for sure and suggests it could be done if either is put @L-1
4- Dino says he would be sharing everything in public if he got to L-1
5- Dino says to treat him as town and lynch him in LyLo if he lives that long
6- Dino states a TR in both his neighbors (and outs wave as the other one at this point)
7- Dino also states a TR on Scioness but asks for UD's reasons to TR Scioness. He is bothered by NSG not TRing Scioness and

says he will trust NSG's read over his.

(I missed this part when I skimmed the PT before)
8- UD finally declares AA9 as his other neighbor and says she's been inactive site-wide

The plan only came in the middle of page 2.

I think I can lynch Scioness as well, but I need to go back and see what exactly NSG said there.

[Toranaga]

454: Thanks, I hate it
UNVOTE: VOTE: UglyDuck

That's EXACTLY what I've been looking for/expecting. Mainly, I wanted to know if wcg unvoted AA9 first or Dino did. Then I wanted to know her reasoning for it.

So, unvoting AA9 when she gets to L-2 (when you've been leading the wagon on her) is

always

alarming in my book. The question is whether it's scum jumping off a scum partner, or scum jumping off a town wagon that now looks like going through.

My answer is it's more likely the former, since wcg needed to simultaneously find a different vote target to justify it. Usually when scum jump off a town wagon they just unvote and say something along the lines of "I'm not too confident.." or "This wagon is building too fast.." or "I don't want to end the day just yet.." or "I don't trust X on the wagon..".. etc. etc.

So, in conclusion I'm calling Lavos and Toranaga as the scum pair here.

Still not sure if there should be a 3rd, but obviously you all are confident HWS made a mistake in the OP, so I'll look for a 3rd scum if and only if we lynch these two and the game still doesn't end.

NOTE: I got what I wanted, so I won't be reading the rest of the main thread. I'll now check the neighborhoods for details.

@bujaber: bolded and this whole thing really. idk what else you're interpreting from A50.

[Toranaga]

wrt lavos, I like that he defended me the way he did and I thought his ISO was decent. the caps lock posting threw me off a bit but I can see someone being genuinely frustrated with A50 at any rate. why do you scumread lavos?

[BuJaber]

Eh mostly for catgirl. Lavos seems nullish so far. That's why I find TRs on him interesting.

[HeWhoSwims]

VC6

Toranaga (2) (L-4):

BuJaber, UnrealSeal

Lavos (2) (L-4):

Almost50, mutantdevle

UnrealSeal (3) (L-3):

Awoo, Lavos, UglyDuck

UglyDuck (1) (L-5):

wavemode

mutantdevle (2) (L-4):

Toranaga, Myloninja13

Not voting: Scioness Sajj

Day 2 will end in (expired on 2018-07-09 09:20:59)

No mod notes... Don't make this too easy on me!

[Toranaga]

Eh mostly for catgirl. Lavos seems nullish so far. That's why I find TRs on him interesting.

what do you think of mutantdevle?

[mutantdevle]

I think we have a shared love.

[Almost50]

After we've decided on a lynch but before it happens, would everyone be alright posting the full contents of their PTs? There's something I've been thinking about.

Anyone up for this?

Also, since my own scum hinting tools aren't convincing to some of you, how about a combined A50-Mathdino-NSG readlist:

BuJaber
UD
mutant
MyLo
wave
Unreal
Awoo
wcg (Lavos)
AA9 (Tora)
Scioness

[mutantdevle]

BuJaber
UD
mutant
MyLo
wave
Unreal
Awoo
wcg (Lavos)
AA9 (Tora)
Scioness

I actually really like this list tbh.