Open 730: Donner Party [Terminado]

[OkaPoka]

the only world in which abandoing a wagon that is potentially gaining steam (my wagon with lucky joining unreal's vote) is less safe than starting a vote on no-one else wagon (AP) is one in which AP is scumread/unreal has a lead.

I don't see this as a scumSEAL play, rather I don't see this as the optimal way for scumSEAL to play this game. The safer and higher winrate play imo for a scumSEAL is to stick on me and try to get others to join on my wagon b/c AP is townread and would be a tough lynch to sell while I'd be an easier lynch target.

Seal gets the benefit of not being a bandwagoner for hardpushing me to get lynched too.

[AP]

Well, my plan is already in this thread. You can lynch me (it's safer than wagoning someone else who might turn to be a PR)

Now, Vig still targets their N1 target and RB still blocks the same target. IF the Vig didn't submit a kill on N1, please pick between Oka and Seal.

Now that I've got this out of the way, I'm just wondering if Unreal has any idea what the word "tactic" means.

So, I offered myself to be Vigged, and I'm scum??

The ONLY way I could even do that -as Mafia- is for me to have eaten Blackstar and he flipped VIGILATE (so I know I'm safe there). The problem is I claimed VT and there's a Gunsmith out there, so how am I going to explain a Gunsmith guilty on me when my only chance was to fake Vig??

Or maybe Blackstar us the GS?? But that would mean I'm inviting the Vig to kill me and thus playing directly against my win con!

Tell you what? Forget Mafia. Indeed, worst case scenario is I'm the SK . I still have no idea if the Vig already acted or not, so it's a 50-50 chance they'll hit me (according to my own plan). But apply the above hypothetical conditions (Blackstar is Vig/GS). If he was Vig I STILL DON'T BLOODY KNOW if he has acted, and neither do I know about the Mafia shot. I thus don't know if I have my 1-shot BP on or not.

But let me go down further and assume I'm taking a gamble here. I'm inviting the MAFIA to shoot me, because they know the Vig is dead, and it's best play for either of us to FAKE CLAIM VIG in this case. Furthermore. that still doesn't protect me against the GS (all I have is protection against the TB and the Vig).

I mean, anyway you slice it, I want you to come up with a scenario where I could be scum

who outright claimed town

suggesting I should be targeted by the Vig, regardless of whether the Vig is alive or dead.

Once you've done your homework and come back with a solution to this problem I will help you lynch me by voting myself.

GO!

[OkaPoka]

here's the thing AP, I don't think your scum but I also think that your vote on Seal is barking up the wrong tree. I don't really see scumSEAL voting for you in this phase.

how about u vote not mafia with me

[Eragon]

VOTE: UnrealSeal

greatest scum equity in my PoV, followed by oka.

this puts him at L-2, thats why I was waiting for VC to make sure I didn't put him in hammer range.

[OkaPoka]

same question for you eragon, would scumseal really abandon a potential wagon on me for one on AP?

[Eragon]

it all depends on which one he thinks he can push.

if he doesn't have a good case on you then he wouldn't try to push you, but if he thinks he can convince people to vote AP then he would vote AP.

it just depends on which one he feels more confident in, so I see it as NAI in itself

[Sando]

the only world in which abandoing a wagon that is potentially gaining steam (my wagon with lucky joining unreal's vote) is less safe than starting a vote on no-one else wagon (AP) is one in which AP is scumread/unreal has a lead.

So you're saying that if Unreal flips town or claims a PR you're not going to have some piercing questions for those on the wagon? Sitting on a wagon is not "safe", or at least it shouldn't be. Vote-parking, which Unreal specifically says he's doing, is "safe" because you're saying that you're not really pushing a lynch, you just want to park your vote somewhere, preferably somewhere where it's not about to become the hot button topic.

You're also ignoring that both times he votes, he specifically says "I have no real scumreads", how is that not an indicator of playing it safe and expressing a lack of conviction in votes/reads?

I'm away for the next 24 hours or so. Please be aware that you have N_M in the game with a penchant for lolhammering. You also have Manatee in the game with a penchant for stealing N_Ms lolhammer

[OkaPoka]

the only world in which abandoing a wagon that is potentially gaining steam (my wagon with lucky joining unreal's vote) is less safe than starting a vote on no-one else wagon (AP) is one in which AP is scumread/unreal has a lead.

So you're saying that if Unreal flips town or claims a PR you're not going to have some piercing questions for those on the wagon? Sitting on a wagon is not "safe", or at least it shouldn't be. Vote-parking, which Unreal specifically says he's doing, is "safe" because you're saying that you're not really pushing a lynch, you just want to park your vote somewhere, preferably somewhere where it's not about to become the hot button topic.

You're also ignoring that both times he votes, he specifically says "I have no real scumreads", how is that not an indicator of playing it safe and expressing a lack of conviction in votes/reads?

I'm away for the next 24 hours or so. Please be aware that you have N_M in the game with a penchant for lolhammering. You also have Manatee in the game with a penchant for stealing N_Ms lolhammer

i guess if he has no intent on lynching then you are right and I am wrong

but we do not yet know he has no intent on pushing AP and lynching him, its been like a day since he voted him and we are pretty early so he still has time to hard push

[OkaPoka]

I'm bored lets do an analysis of what N_M has done this game.

He has made 8 posts day 1 and 2 posts day 2, for a grand total of 10 posts!

Three of which are solely commenting on a joke he wanted to be posted, a conversation with the mod. Technically speaking, he did talk to Sando in one of these posts on the subject of jokes, but he did so in an unmeaningful manner, refering to jokes again. Remember this is also the stage of RVS, 3/10 posts from Not_Mafia are in RVS and do not create a real conversation with any players. It can be argued he was conversing with Sando here, but really, was that his intention? I believe that he made these 3 posts as a meme, a shitpost, with no intention of hunting mafia. I mean it is hard to scumhunt in RVS so we can forgive him for that one, but I think it is glaring when 30% of your posts are in RVS and are directed mainly towards the moderator.

Spoiler: joke posts

Where's my joke? Also fix the second post please

Where's my joke? Also fix the second post please

VOTE: NM

You're meant to send the joke, not get one

I did, I even created it myself

I demand it be posted in all it's hilarity

NM's joke

(which I don't get but we're not here to discuss the semantics of a joke)

: I went to the shop earlier and asked the shop assistant "Where are you Oxo Cubes?", she replied, "Sorry, we're out of stock."
-Kor

Not_Mafia has 4 of his 10 posts (40%!) as merely naked vote posts! No explanation, no question, no commentary, just merely a vote and that is all. Some can argue that we can forgive not_mafia because "meta" and that well technically he is doing something. But this also means that he is generating no content whatsoever, he is merely another vote and that is all. At the root of it all, the strength of all town roles is the ability to voice their opinions and to vote. Not_mafia with his playstyle has essentially removed the voice aspect of playing town, if he is even playing town. Explain to me how 40% of someone's posts can merely be a naked vote and that being an indicator of pro-town, and indicator that he is indeed not scum. Point to me a game in which Not_mafia has had 40% of his posts be simply a vote and that is all.

Spoiler: vote posts

VOTE: MM

VOTE: ceejay

VOTE: MM

VOTE: Sando

2 of his 10 posts (20%!!!!!!) are again talking to the mod and that is all. Here Not_mafia is arguing the definition of twilight with the moderator. One can argue this is not alignment indicative, but really? Is it productive to have a fifth of your posts be arguing with the moderator what the definition of certain terminology and game states should be? Is it really indicating that not_mafia is playing to the town's win condition when a fifth of his posts are about what twilight should be? Any town player has the right to question what the moderator's definition of certain things should be, I am not arguing with that, but is it town when you have your most complex ideas and sentences presented only when talking to the moderator rather than creating a conversation with the rest of town?

Spoiler: talking to the mod

MM may continue posting until their role is flipped btw

Twilight posting is also fine with me, all rules still apply though

Twilight is the time between a hammer and mod coming to the thread, not whatever this is

MM may continue posting until their role is flipped btw

Twilight posting is also fine with me, all rules still apply though

Twilight is the time between a hammer and mod coming to the thread, not whatever this is

R u the mod?

Here, finally, not_mafia asks a question to the rest of town. A whole 10% of his posts are generating content. A simple question, excellent. But let me ask you this, is it really town to have only 10% of your posts be content/content generation? Also not_mafia has not followed up on this question, he has remained in the shadows once again.

Spoiler: finally

Why are the people not voting not voting?

3/10 posts by Not_mafia are solely on the topic of "jokes"
4/10 posts by Not_Mafia are talking to the moderator and the moderator alone.
4/10 posts by Not_mafia are solely naked votes
1/10 posts by Not_mafia have the potential to generate content.
9/10 posts by Not_mafia have zero potential to create discussion, generate content, or engages in a meaningful way with the other members of this village

So I ask all of you, what alignment has to gain from limited discussion? What alignment has to gain from no meaningful engagements? What alignment has to gain from town slowing down, forced to compromise on last minute lynches? What alignment has to gain from a weakened town, burdened with inactivity, and the potential to even reach no lynches?

It's not like not_mafia is unable to formulate words beyond the structure of "vote:name"
He has proven that he can speak when talking to the mod, he has proven he is paying attention when discussion twilight situations, he has proven that he reads the game when he asks his only question.

So why aren't we voting up not_mafia? Meta? Show me a game where he has done this playstyle of non interactivity, of having a sizeable amount of posts being naked votes, of interacting more with the moderator than with the players. Tell me why that his playstyle is playing to town's win condition and not scum.

If you can't, vote not_mafia.

[LuckyOtter]

Do you think scum unreal would leave my wagon which has the potential of gaining steam with lucky hopping in and create a new wagon on someone with no votes and seemingly townread by many?

He could believe you are the other scum (despite what he's said), in which case he benefits from keeping you around at least one more round. Or, he might just want to avoid being on the lynch. Or, he just wants to discredit AP and cause confusion. This isn't a great reason to TR him.

I am interested in hearing more from NM, but my money is on you or seal right now.

[OkaPoka]

So why aren't we voting up not_mafia? Meta? Show me a game where he has done this playstyle of non interactivity, of having a sizeable amount of posts being naked votes, of interacting more with the moderator than with the players. Tell me why that his playstyle is playing to town's win condition and not scum.

[Not_Mafia]

I'm town

[AP]

I'm town

Holy cow! An udder empty post of those and even I am going to start suspecting you!!
Do we have to milk you for reads? Say something and let's get the game moooooving!

[OkaPoka]

I'm town

Holy cow! An udder empty post of those and even I am going to start suspecting you!!
Do we have to milk you for reads? Say something and let's get the game moooooving!

vote him or he can do this without consequence

[Sando]

I'm town

Holy cow! An udder empty post of those and even I am going to start suspecting you!!
Do we have to milk you for reads? Say something and let's get the game moooooving!

vote him or he can do this without consequence

Oka he does this without consequence...it's his meta and you kinda have to deal with that. He feeds off reactions like you, and voting/lynching him will absolutely not change his playstyle, quite the opposite.

[Not_Mafia]

A fruitless endeavour

[AP]

A fruitless endeavour

Seriously, mate.

I need your help

here. Five me something.. an overview.. a clear .. a guilty .. anything.

[ManateeDude]

Im really hating Oka's push on Not_Mafia, but I still get towny vibes from it. So Idm joining the seal vote

VOTE: UnrealSeal

L-1

[Eragon]

UNVOTE: Unreal

L-2 is close enough for now


My vote is still on in spirit

[OkaPoka]

I'm town

Holy cow! An udder empty post of those and even I am going to start suspecting you!!
Do we have to milk you for reads? Say something and let's get the game moooooving!

vote him or he can do this without consequence

Oka he does this without consequence...it's his meta and you kinda have to deal with that. He feeds off reactions like you, and voting/lynching him will absolutely not change his playstyle, quite the opposite.

let's say you are right and this is his meta

how do you tell scum not_mafia from town not_mafia

[OkaPoka]

Im really hating Oka's push on Not_Mafia, but I still get towny vibes from it. So Idm joining the seal vote

VOTE: UnrealSeal

L-1

what do you hate about it?

[ManateeDude]

Im really hating Oka's push on Not_Mafia, but I still get towny vibes from it. So Idm joining the seal vote

VOTE: UnrealSeal

L-1

what do you hate about it?

BECAUSE HE DOES THIS ALL THE TIME. ITS NOT SCUMMY FOR HIM.

[OkaPoka]

Im really hating Oka's push on Not_Mafia, but I still get towny vibes from it. So Idm joining the seal vote

VOTE: UnrealSeal

L-1

what do you hate about it?

BECAUSE HE DOES THIS ALL THE TIME. ITS NOT SCUMMY FOR HIM.

okay, tell me what he does as scum and what he does as town then and how do sort him from there.

[ceejayvinoya]

As town he tries to vote scum. As scum he votes town. So yeah no idea.

[LuckyOtter]

Oka, NM just isn't a viable lynch candidate today. I get your frustration, and I could see him as SK, but I don't know his meta and enough people know his meta enough not to feel confident in scum!NM this game that I highly doubt he's scum. As far as I can tell, he has at least 3 townreads (Sando, Manatee, Seal) and 2 true null reads (CJ, Eragon), and only 4 of us even remotely entertaining the idea he might be scum (you, me barely, ejj sort of, AP sort of). The only chance I see NM being SK is if one of the town or nullreaders is lying about how they're reading him, while 2 or 3 of the townreaders are just totally wrong. That is not impossible, but it's unlikely enough that there is no way I vote NM today, and there is almost no way you gather the 5 extra votes necessary to make a lynch happen.

Now the question is whether you realize this or not. It looks to me like you're genuinely trying to get a wagon going and that your frustration is also genuine. I'm also starting to think it's from a town POV and not scum. Partly from gut and partly because if you're scum I don't know that you would fight so hard on this. Actually, the only scenario that makes sense with you as scum is if you think Seal is the other scum and you're frustrated you can't keep him around longer. Which would make sense given your defense of him, but it's not enough to keep voting you right now.

So UNVOTE: with intent to vote seal. There's no rush.

Oka, if you genuinely think NM is scum, and you don't think seal is scum, who do you think could be the other one? I actually do appreciate your pushing NM but your tunneling on him with no real reads of anyone else is unhelpful at best.