Mini 2014: Succinct Mafia (Over)

[mastina]

Votecount

EeveeLution Army - 3 (Dunnstral, Hiraki, MafMen)

LuckyOtter - 2 (Umlaut, Wisdom)
MathBlade - 1 (TrinityNZ)
Pine - 1 (EeveeLution Army)
Hiraki - 1 (Pine)
TrinityNZ - 1 (MathBlade)

Not Voting - 2 (ArcAngel9, LuckyOtter)

6 to lynch.

[EeveeLution Army]

Ty mastina

[Wisdom]

ill join any of these wagons bar eevee and trinity

[Umlaut]

0% on Lucky. I see exactly what you see in him. It's not scum though. I'd be willing to do a Pine lynch as a nice jesture though I really don't think that has a significant chance of flipping scum. Just a nice chance.

What does this mean? If you don't see scum in Lucky, you don't see in him what I see in him. Explain how town!Otter plays the way you agree with me that he's played.

I don't want a nice gesture from you, I want to lynch some scum. I don't really think that's Eevee. I'd deadline-wagon him over a proper townread but I don't see any scum motivation in his play.

I also think 903 is a little misleading. More than half of the people on there are rejecting the claim yet he's been lynched. That's not very truthful on a face value without looking into it.

I think

you're

confused on this... more than half the people

rejected

Fuzzy's cop claim, meaning they said Fuzzy wasn't really a cop, meaning they still wanted to lynch him, so he got lynched. Makes sense to me.

Anyway, at least you're actually engaging my case instead of skimming over it and saying "gee Umlaut sure is town for writing so many words."

*cough*Trinity*cough*

[TrinityNZ]

ill join any of these wagons bar eevee and trinity

Join the math wagon!

[Wisdom]

im spiritually still on it

[TrinityNZ]

im spiritually still on it

Why only spiritually? Why don’t you want to vote him?

[Hiraki]

I think you're confused on this... more than half the people rejected Fuzzy's cop claim, meaning they said Fuzzy wasn't really a cop, meaning they still wanted to lynch him, so he got lynched. Makes sense to me.

Yeah, you're right. My bad.

What does this mean? If you don't see scum in Lucky, you don't see in him what I see in him. Explain how town!Otter plays the way you agree with me that he's played.

By just playing this way? I just think most of your conclusions say he's scum without actually getting there. Here's an example:

He was already calling himself natural lynchbait before (293) and continued to call himself natural lynchbait after (394, 401):

This doesn't mean anything and you eventually get to:

So the entire basis for a contradiction hinges on whether this is a reasonable interpretation of "playing as lynchbait." If so, Fuzzy's explanation is sound; if not, it's scum backpedaling.

Alrighty, that's a stretch.

We're at the point where saying "I play like lynchbait" means "I play like lynchbait (please excuse my scummy play)" but you never really hit where the scummy play part is.

The only thing convincing here is:

LuckyOtter called for an immediate hammer before anyone else could talk anything through.

Which I then dug into because this without quotes is very misleading.

I don't see any quotes that say that. Here is the only post I can find that even references that:

Koki, you ready to hammer or waiting for something?

Which isn't a bad post considering Koki's last two posts are:

vote Fuzzy

im the town cop but whatever, town is bound and determine to lynch me....at this point i kinda dont care

Why would you vote yourself as cop? What the hell, that's gamethrow.

Yeah the actions dont lineup. No way he self votes as cop. That literally makes no sense.

If he didn't believe the cop claim, why would he care what others thought about it?

Like I said, I get where you're coming from but I don't see the links that correlate it toward being scum.

[Umlaut]

He was already calling himself natural lynchbait before (293) and continued to call himself natural lynchbait after (394, 401):

This doesn't mean anything and you eventually get to:

So the entire basis for a contradiction hinges on whether this is a reasonable interpretation of "playing as lynchbait." If so, Fuzzy's explanation is sound; if not, it's scum backpedaling.

Alrighty, that's a stretch.

We're at the point where saying "I play like lynchbait" means "I play like lynchbait (please excuse my scummy play)" but you never really hit where the scummy play part is.

I'm trying to understand your reply and getting disoriented. I'm not trying to point at any scummy play of Fuzzy's because... I'm not trying to convince you that the flipped town cop is scum? My case is on LuckyOtter who is actually a different player from Fuzzy. I'm not trying to say that Otter is lynchbait, or that he claimed to be.

The point of that section is that

Otter's

hard scumread of Fuzzy was based on an insistence that Fuzzy's statement could only mean "I'm deliberately acting scummy." Which means Otter should not be able to readily come up with an innocent alternate interpretation that completely eluded him as possible on d1 even as Fuzzy was offering it to him.

[Hiraki]

You're right - I misread. But then I read more and more of the situation and found myself agreeing with my previous sentiments (which is probably why I just misread the quote and kind of tagged along with it because most of my post makes sense without that quote either way)

The reason why you're currently voting Otter is because you do not think he gave a lot of time for people to interact with the claim. This is not really coherent with someone who didn't believe the claim and didn't really buy his play. I know that's how Fuzzy plays but I'm not gonna play stupid here and say that he was a clear townie. My reads always carry a bit of meta, luck, and whole understanding of the player. Otter's doesn't. That doesn't make him scum, especially in that "whole understanding" context (there might be a better word for this but I'm not very grounded on the word meta for it - I think the two are distinctly different) but does (and did!) make him wrong.

The ironic thing here is that I've always been very vigilant on how Eevee and Otter are playing almost identical games here - different opinions, sure, but not very different in style and overall thought process (or at least how the thought comes about). The problem is the execution which is something I've been trying to nail down on getting people to look at but I think I've been very unsuccessful every time. Otter uses his head, forms an opinion, and sticks with it. Eevee asks a question, throws the question away and brings up other garbage on why he's voting. It's not consistent, it's not at all townie, and there's no reason why these excuses have gotten this far tbh.

[EeveeLution Army]

So you are saying pine is not scummy at all to you?

[Pine]

Mathwagon is a bad wagon

Eeveewagon is a bad wagon

Otter wagon is a bad wagon

Hiraki is a good lynch. Dunn is a good lynch. Will support either.

[Hiraki]

Yeeeeah, no. I may be lowkey here, but I'm not so careless as to just plain make shit up.

LITERALLY the exact problem that I just complained about. In one post, Pine says:

1) He has a read on me that he has not gone into but is scummy.
2) That read is really obvious but he hasn't gone into it because...?
3) Practically ignores all posting.

this is annoying. Regardless of alignment, this is annoying. I would, and definitely have, made this same statement as scum.

No one wants to pick your brain, no one thinks you're a god among men for doing this. It is just downright annoying.

I'm mobile posting so I'm gonna address Umlaut here without quotes.

1. They honestly haven't because I don't think this game matured past Day 1. The deadline vote was on someone that I don't think gave a lot of reads and was dumb anyway. I don't think Angel is worth trying to argue right now because I don't think anyone wants to touch that. All of that being said, there are multiple shady relationships that randomly appear throughout the game. Eevee and Wisdom are two of them. I can go more into this using a keyboard.

[Umlaut]

Wisdom, what about Pinewagon?

[TrinityNZ]

Mathwagon is a bad wagon

Eeveewagon is a bad wagon

Otter wagon is a bad wagon

Hiraki is a good lynch. Dunn is a good lynch. Will support either.

Any reasons?

[Pine]

Yeah. The first three are Town, the latter two are not. Keep up.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, what about Pinewagon?

Votecount

EeveeLution Army - 3 (Dunnstral, Hiraki, MafMen)

LuckyOtter - 2 (Umlaut, Wisdom)
MathBlade - 1 (TrinityNZ)
Pine - 1 (EeveeLution Army)
Hiraki - 1 (Pine)
TrinityNZ - 1 (MathBlade)

Not Voting - 2 (ArcAngel9, LuckyOtter)

6 to lynch.

ill join any of these wagons bar eevee and trinity

[Umlaut]

VOTE: Pine

You, me, Eevee, Hiraki. That's L-2.

I feel good about this. Not as good as I would about flipping Otter, but good.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: pine

[TrinityNZ]

Yeah. The first three are Town, the latter two are not. Keep up.

I could vote Pine too, is now a good time?

[MathBlade]

My stomach is scum claiming.

Pine wagon is bad.

I have said the group of people I will vote. I don’t vote a 5th or 6th level read in a plurality game.

[Hiraki]

I hate this but Pine is literally refusing to play so I give up here. This game needs something to get it to move and this might as well be something.

Vote: Pine

[Umlaut]

I could vote Pine too, is now a good time?

I don't like how you're asking permission to vote.

Never mind "I could vote him," what do you actually think of Pine?

[TrinityNZ]

I could vote Pine too, is now a good time?

I don't like how you're asking permission to vote.

Never mind "I could vote him," what do you actually think of Pine?

I do think he’s scummy, with Math. I’ve been criticised for voting at the wrong times in other games, so just want to check I’m not doing anything wrong. I’m not sure if voting him will make him L-1 and if it’s the wrong time to do that and then I’ll get a hard time. I’m still a newbie at this

[Umlaut]

Ugh. I really do want to give you newbie-slack for this even though explicitly appealing to “I’m still a newbie” really pings me, because I remember that as a newbie I was excessively worried about looking bad even as town. Also I’m absolutely certain that as a newbie I would have had MathBlade as lock-scum too, so that’s a really natural read for you to have right now.

I wish you had more meta to dive. Looks like only one finished game, and in that you were scum (and got totally wrecked by PoE, kudos for sticking around after that) so I don’t have a town game to compare this to.

Anyway, I’ve been townreading your slot based on SirCakez and to some extent Magna, and while that read isn’t inviolable I don’t think this is enough to shake it much, especially conside

But if you’re town you really need to step up the contributions. You’ve been in the game for over a week, and all you’ve done is toss out some unexplained reads and ask a handful of questions that feel more like “please explain what’s going on” than like you’re trying to investigate anyone. You have at least one strong scumread, on MathBlade, and right now everyone else seems to be moving away from that, so if you stand by that read you should be trying to sell it to us. I understand that replace-in can be disorienting and that you may not have a lot of self-confidence, but you are letting the perfect be the enemy of the good here. Tell us what’s on your mind.

To answer your actual question, I wouldn’t be offended by an L−1 but I will regard it as a scumclaim if anyone hammers before Arc-replacement shows up.

---

I’m unnerved that Pine is completely ignoring this case and wagon on him. I’m also unnerved that none of the people voting him with me seem to actually care about said case. Eevee has his own independent reasoning for scum!Pine, Wisdom just wants to be on the biggest wagon he doesn't townread, Hiraki is voting him mostly for failure to contribute and outright says he’d rather be elsewhere, and Trinity says he’s scummy but hasn’t so much as interacted with him or pointed to anything he’s written that she scumreads.