Micro 814: Geriatric Trio (Mafia Victory!!!)

[hitogoroshi]

wow that cheesy post is really bad. "should be commended for helping it unfold" is a really weird way to describe RVS wagoning. The point on "Are you suggesting they're partners" just seems like stirring up shit for the sake of it - if he's scum he's necessarily not scum with both of them, so what kind of theory are you even pushing here? And the interaction with Oath just gives me the heebies. Fawning praise for the MoI point and the following up blind wagoning, but then a pivot in the same post to agreeing with Oath (?) and then going out of their way to preemptively try to defend Oath? It's a really gross defense too - not utilizing your vote is ten million percent scummy, it's kind of the only scumtell from which all others flow - and it's even more so for someone who commended people for helping unfold the wagon in the first place. oh and finally I think that someone who agrees x1000 that wagons are nice in RVS would have voted me instead of RedCoyote in their first post. VOTE CHEESY FRIENDS

VOTE: Cheesy

don't like Oath either, could go either way on RC, like komala. music box has me a bit :s also but if Cheesy is scum I think Oath is the more likely buddy.

[Oath]

@hiro Why'd you vote Cheesy over myself?

10,000,000 % scummy Oath > Cheesy so far.. or no?

[MagnaofIllusion]

RVS is boring and largely unhelpful to me. Ss sometimes I participate, sometimes I don't.

What's interesting is wanting my head when there were actually only 5 in game posts before mine (not including Mod posts) and apparently I'm supposed to have "more to offer", really? Wagon for reaction is one thing, but the rationale is that my lack of RVS makes me more likely to be scum is reaching.

That being said MagnaofIllusion is better than that, even the explanation of thought (explaining that typically they'd say different) rubs me the wrong way - like simply voting me was too risky for them?

So how should be better again? I'm not really clear on what your stance is. Scum have and will continue to be found in RVS. Your post came off as artificial and not wanting to make waves. Which is something that on page 1 warrants a vote as scum tend to have to be more careful about how they open the game.

But a question to

you and Cheesy

- why do you find empty wagoning to more indicative of Town play than posts with content attached?

[hitogoroshi]

@hiro Why'd you vote Cheesy over myself?

10,000,000 % scummy Oath > Cheesy so far.. or no?

I don't think missing the RVS vote in the first post is a huge indicator of failing to utilize vote. I do think that Cheesy defending such an extreme version of the idea ("it's not scummy" vs "well, it would have been bad if it kept up, but it didn't") is suspicious.

it's like you were nibbling on a kittens ear and then Cheesy said "WHATS EVERYONE LOOKIN AT? IT'S FINE TO EAT KITTENS." I don't really think you were full on eating that kitten but it's real real bad Cheesy wanted to let you.

[Aristophanes]

VC 1.3

Oath

(3): MagnaofIllusion 14, Music Box 16, Invisibility 17

RedCoyote

(2): Cheesy 5, Oath 22

Hitogoroshi

(1): Komala 4

Komala

(1): nonny 8

Invisibility

(1): RedCoyote 18

Cheesy

(1): hitogoroshi 25

Not Voting

(0): Nobody!!!

Posts reset in (expired on 2018-07-17 12:00:00).
D1 will end when a majority is reached or on July 28/18 at 12pm EST in (expired on 2018-07-28 12:00:00).
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Mod Notes:

What a nice game pace

[Oath]

RVS is boring and largely unhelpful to me. Ss sometimes I participate, sometimes I don't.

What's interesting is wanting my head when there were actually only 5 in game posts before mine (not including Mod posts) and apparently I'm supposed to have "more to offer", really? Wagon for reaction is one thing, but the rationale is that my lack of RVS makes me more likely to be scum is reaching.

That being said MagnaofIllusion is better than that, even the explanation of thought (explaining that typically they'd say different) rubs me the wrong way - like simply voting me was too risky for them?

So how should be better again? I'm not really clear on what your stance is. Scum have and will continue to be found in RVS. Your post came off as artificial and not wanting to make waves. Which is something that on page 1 warrants a vote as scum tend to have to be more careful about how they open the game.

But a question to

you and Cheesy

- why do you find empty wagoning to more indicative of Town play than posts with content attached?

It's not so much that the empty wagon itself is more indicative of town, it's that votes with explanation lead me away from what I think would be the town motivation of an RVS wagon specifically - reaction testing/pressure. Which I explained in my previous post is largely unsuccessful when exposed imo. Given that your vote had an explanation, it's easy to say that vote is serious (not simply to gauge) and you support the reasoning you put forth - reasoning that I find weak and more indicative of scum because as I stated there were on 5 in game posts before mine. It seemed like an easy NAI thing to latch onto, especially since your explanation began with a contradiction of how you would normally interpret things. It seems like over -explaining weak scumhunting.

@hiro Why'd you vote Cheesy over myself?

10,000,000 % scummy Oath > Cheesy so far.. or no?

I don't think missing the RVS vote in the first post is a huge indicator of failing to utilize vote. I do think that Cheesy defending such an extreme version of the idea ("it's not scummy" vs "well, it would have been bad if it kept up, but it didn't") is suspicious.

it's like you were nibbling on a kittens ear and then Cheesy said "WHATS EVERYONE LOOKIN AT? IT'S FINE TO EAT KITTENS." I don't really think you were full on eating that kitten but it's real real bad Cheesy wanted to let you.

Do scum not buddy town? And vice versa?

[nonny]

it's like you were nibbling on a kittens ear and then Cheesy said "WHATS EVERYONE LOOKIN AT? IT'S FINE TO EAT KITTENS." I don't really think you were full on eating that kitten but it's real real bad Cheesy wanted to let you.

This may be my favorite analogy ever.

More seriously the whole wagon seems off but not sure which side feels off more. The two back to back votes with no reasons posted is odd, understanding saying wagons are good in RVS but you could still say why you are voting, i.e if you agreed with MoI's interpretation of the no random vote from oath.

Secondly, Cheesy's post 24 is weird. So oath's wagon is justified but you aren't continuing it?

RedCoyote, though... remarks that they agree with MoI's reservation and is the one that asserts I should have more to offer 5 posts in- lol - then votes Invisibility? If you agree with MoI, who's to say Invisibility didn't as well? Or again could have been wagoning like they suggested? In which case, a reaction test or early wagon tends to be easier to manipulate if people know that's why you're doing it.

Sorry, are you saying wagons are best unexplained? Because that's what it sounds like, so they can't be "manipulated" but then they also can't be read (and also can't be used for AI reads). This makes no sense. Voting just to vote in RVS is one thing, voting and perpetuating a wagon without posting reasons seems ill advised.

[Oath]

I'm saying RVS wagons are best unexplained if they are to yield the maximum result. Like now, let's say both those unexplained votes are town- they've pushed the game forward and allowed people to expose themselves. We now have a reference point for the day and several players philosophies on wagons. I'm not saying that they should always STAY unexplained, but the initial vote doesn't need an explanation and imo is far more successful when allowed to linger if the purpose is to reaction test or apply pressure. I, for one, will reaction test and hate having to explain myself before it's actually accomplished anything - now the reactions I'm getting are less genuine than they could have been all because people can't just chill for sec and let it play out.

[hitogoroshi]

Do scum not buddy town? And vice versa?

It's not like I'm just going after any instance of buddying. It's

specifically

the whiplash of Cheesy going so far out of their washould be commended for helping it unfold to defend you in the same post where they like how MoI started - even though the thing they're defending is pretty much the same as MoI's point. And yes, scum buddying you in this way doesn't mean you're scum too - it could also be scum trying to make friends. But I think that it makes more sense as a buddy situation if Cheesy flips scum and I feel a lot stronger about it after this post from you actually, cause you're tip-toeing around your own Cheesy read and "do scum not buddy town?" gives me pretty big you-know-Cheesys-flippin-scum vibes

[Oath]

I wasn't asked for my Cheesy read and I haven't said anything of what I feel about what he said or what you've said. Both strike me as odd. If you want to know something, you can ask btw.

[hitogoroshi]

It's specifically the whiplash of Cheesy going so far out of their washould be commended for helping it unfold to defend you in the same post where they like how MoI started - even though the thing they're defending is pretty much the same as MoI's point.

I think I was thinking of adding the quote, took out part of it, and left the other part in a weird incomprehensible way. For the above please read:

"It's specifically the whiplash of Cheesy going so far out of their way to defend you in the same post where they like how MoI started - even though the thing they're defending is pretty much the same as MoI's point."

This may be my favorite analogy ever.

Thank you, I do not suppose I hold a candle to analogy master Brad Neely but it's nice to be appreciated.

I wasn't asked for my Cheesy read and I haven't said anything of what I feel about what he said or what you've said. Both strike me as odd. If you want to know something, you can ask btw.

No, you weren't asked. But a sentence like "Don't scum sometimes buddy town, and vice versa" is one that really invites you to weigh on which is which, and it's kinda weird you didn't. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Music Box]

I voted because I agreed with MoI's point and wanted to see how Oath would respond. I mostly liked her responses so unvoting for now while I look at the rest of the posts.

Unvote

[MagnaofIllusion]

It's not so much that the empty wagon itself is more indicative of town, it's that votes with explanation lead me away from what I think would be the town motivation of an RVS wagon specifically - reaction testing/pressure. Which I explained in my previous post is largely unsuccessful when exposed imo. Given that your vote had an explanation, it's easy to say that vote is serious (not simply to gauge) and you support the reasoning you put forth - reasoning that I find weak and more indicative of scum because as I stated there were on 5 in game posts before mine. It seemed like an easy NAI thing to latch onto, especially since your explanation began with a contradiction of how you would normally interpret things. It seems like over -explaining weak scumhunting.

I'm not sure I buy this. You think it is more Town motivated to just worldlessly vote as opposed to articulating reasons? Nah, that's bad. Pressure is applied by making a player defend their stances (like I've made you do here) and analyzing whether the resulting explanation makes sense. Empty wagonning does not allow for analysis.

And my vote is staying with you because you've got two conflicting narratives going on here that don't reconcile that I can see.

1. Your post can't be suspected because it was way early and like the 6th post.
2. I'm scum-hunting is "suspect" because I've latched onto a minor thing.

If it was indeed so early as you are discussing there is no feasible way you should think I could have powerful scumhunting. The logical reaction based on what you said before should be "Well OK at least we are getting out of damn RVS ASAP". What I found the tiniest crumb that I could see some scum motivation on in the first page to make a vote to help move us out of RVS into real discussion (which given you claim RVS is useless should be very Pro-Town). Yet you are working double time to continually downplay my motivation as scummy while not addressing the substance of what I saw there.

1. Do you not think scum have to work much harder in RVS than Town and can be caught in finding posts that show the natural unease that brings?
2. If you think my post is scum motivated why aren't you voting me again? I mean ... that would be the logical course of action for Town who thinks they see scum motivated posting. I know that's what I did with your awkward entrance post.
3. Do you think Music Box and Invis are more actively moving the game forward as Town than me?

Also - still waiting for

Cheesy

to respond to my question. Will have some more thoughts when he does.

@Hito

- Nothing to say to me at all?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I wasn't asked for my Cheesy read

and I haven't said anything of what I feel about what he said or what you've said. Both strike me as odd. If you want to know something, you can ask btw.

Also the bolded ... terrible if you are indeed Town. Your job is not to sit passively and wait to be "asked" your opinion. Your job as Town is to find scum.

[Invisibility]

i'm not sure what to think right now other than that hito is likely town

[Oath]

It's not so much that the empty wagon itself is more indicative of town, it's that votes with explanation lead me away from what I think would be the town motivation of an RVS wagon specifically - reaction testing/pressure. Which I explained in my previous post is largely unsuccessful when exposed imo. Given that your vote had an explanation, it's easy to say that vote is serious (not simply to gauge) and you support the reasoning you put forth - reasoning that I find weak and more indicative of scum because as I stated there were on 5 in game posts before mine. It seemed like an easy NAI thing to latch onto, especially since your explanation began with a contradiction of how you would normally interpret things. It seems like over -explaining weak scumhunting.

I'm not sure I buy this. You think it is more Town motivated to just worldlessly vote as opposed to articulating reasons? Nah, that's bad. Pressure is applied by making a player defend their stances (like I've made you do here) and analyzing whether the resulting explanation makes sense. Empty wagonning does not allow for analysis.

In your opinion. This is just a difference in game play and not even worth arguing over.

1. Your post can't be suspected because it was way early and like the 6th post.
2. I'm scum-hunting is "suspect" because I've latched onto a minor thing.

If it was indeed so early as you are discussing there is no feasible way you should think I could have powerful scumhunting. The logical reaction based on what you said before should be "Well OK at least we are getting out of damn RVS ASAP". What I found the tiniest crumb that I could see some scum motivation on in the first page to make a vote to help move us out of RVS into real discussion (which given you claim RVS is useless should be very Pro-Town). Yet you are working double time to continually downplay my motivation as scummy while not addressing the substance of what I saw there.

How exactly am I working double time to downplay your motivation as scummy? I don't think there's substance in what you saw. We largely disagree on game play obviously and I do have a scum read on you currently so I'm not sure what you're getting at?

I don't think you could have powerful scum hunting based on this game. I'm an alt. I'm confident that you're better than that

1. Do you not think scum have to work much harder in RVS than Town and can be caught in finding posts that show the natural unease that brings?
2. If you think my post is scum motivated why aren't you voting me again? I mean ... that would be the logical course of action for Town who thinks they see scum motivated posting. I know that's what I did with your awkward entrance post.
3. Do you think Music Box and Invis are more actively moving the game forward as Town than me?

1. I don't
2. Because I thought RedCoyote was scummier.
3. No, but I think they attempted to GENUINELY. Scum are great at moving games forward, if you're scum and can get locked down as town day one based on participation and conviction you are basically steering the rest of the game.

I wasn't asked for my Cheesy read

and I haven't said anything of what I feel about what he said or what you've said. Both strike me as odd. If you want to know something, you can ask btw.

Also the bolded ... terrible if you are indeed Town. Your job is not to sit passively and wait to be "asked" your opinion. Your job as Town is to find scum.

Well again, that's just game style we disagree on and as I said before I'm not saying things have to STAY unexplained, but I don't rush to volunteer or explain things this early on because I like to let things play out. As much as it's great for town to come to together and reveal things, you don't reveal when you drop crumbs until it's time to because scum is also here. Same for my reads, especially early on- I don't think all of my thoughts need to be posted in thread until I'm confident and have allowed people to answer certain things or respond. If I tell you what I'm looking for or at, would scum not just attempt to fit that?

[nonny]

i'm not sure what to think right now other than that hito is likely town

Ditto. I also get a town lean on MoI.

[hitogoroshi]

@Hito

- Nothing to say to me at all?

not really. While I disagree on the intensity you pinged on Oath for the first post, their followup has been squicky so it's not like I'm upset on the back and forth between you two. It's good for reads and it's too early for me to care about consolidation. Mostly I plan to comment on things with bemused indifference until Cheesy posts and I go for the throat slash re-assess as wararnted

[RedCoyote]

What's interesting is wanting my head when there were actually only 5 in game posts before mine (not including Mod posts) and apparently I'm supposed to have "more to offer", really?

What's wrong with trying to get the game started by voting, asking questions about the other players, speculating about the setup, et cetera? For someone that dislikes the RVS stage, you didn't really give out anything.

MusicBox and Invisibility seem like wagoning to get the game started which indeed is very towny and I have no qualms with - they didn't try to mask it with some weak explanation.

RedCoyote, though... remarks that they agree with MoI's reservation and is the one that asserts I should have more to offer 5 posts in- lol - then votes Invisibility? If you agree with MoI, who's to say Invisibility didn't as well?

Do you make it a habit of assuming other players' intentions? I prefer asking the question. If Invisiblity felt the same way, then why not add that to the post?

---

At the time you made this post, what did you think the rationale behind these votes was? What do you think now?

Most likely that they were piggybacking off of MoI. Invisibility implied that he wanted a wagon for its own sake in 20.

---

This part seems really weird to me. It's the first wagon of the game and you're immediately suggesting they're partners? Do you know something we don't?

I'm asking a question; I don't know anything. I'm trying to understand the motivations behind two naked votes.

---

I like hito's 25, but there's probably bias slipping in there.

10,000,000 % scummy Oath > Cheesy so far.. or no?

What does "10,000,000 % scummy Oath" refer to?

I'm saying RVS wagons are best unexplained if they are to yield the maximum result. Like now, let's say both those unexplained votes are town- they've pushed the game forward and allowed people to expose themselves. We now have a reference point for the day and several players philosophies on wagons. I'm not saying that they should always STAY unexplained, but the initial vote doesn't need an explanation and imo is far more successful when allowed to linger if the purpose is to reaction test or apply pressure. I, for one, will reaction test and hate having to explain myself before it's actually accomplished anything - now the reactions I'm getting are less genuine than they could have been all because people can't just chill for sec and let it play out.

I get the impression that you're overjustifying here, but I'll qualify with the fact that it's obviously way, way early in the game. The easy rebuttal to this is you're getting reactions either way (whether someone lets your reaction test play out or not).

---

I voted because I agreed with MoI's point and wanted to see how Oath would respond. I mostly liked her responses so unvoting for now while I look at the rest of the posts.

Unvote

And...?

i'm not sure what to think right now other than that hito is likely town

And...?

No need to go into a treatise. I just want to get a little more meat on these two posts. Music Box, you said you were looking at the rest of the posts. Anything stick out? Invisibility, you said the only thing you're sure on is that hito is likely town. Did you want to highlight a point? Join his wagon? Ask him a question? Make an allegation?

I don't want to give off a vibe of being too much like a moderator here (not moderator in the sense generally used on the site as a game runner, but the more common definition as someone who is trying to guide a discussion of a group), but I think this game has a unique opportunity given its slower pace to have more branches of discussion (for lack of a better description). MoI is doing some good grilling of Oath (I especially like the pressure in regards to Oath wanting to get out of RVS vs MoI's vote is silly and unhelpful). I like hito's poking at Cheesy as well. I'm encouraging more layers to these arguments from Invisiblity, MB and Komala.

That all said, I'm going to UNVOTE: Invisiblity and VOTE: Cheesy. Three reasons for doing so:

1) Selfishly, I am better served aiding the viablity of another wagon and necessarily making mine stand out a little less. While I think Cheesy and Oath are both decent places to vote now, I don't think putting Oath at L-1 is as wise as trying to promote another wagon and seeing if that shakes up other votes out there.
2) hito's 25 laid out some good questions/allegations. These should be responded to and not ignored. MoI also has questions for Cheesy. I want to see more from him, and this vote will hopefully encourage it.
3) Not to echo hito too much, but little red flags are present throughout Cheesy's 24. Heebies is the right word. "Music Box and Invisiblity should be commended for helping it unfold", "Do you know something we don't?", "RE: Oath: His wagon's justified" vs "Good reasoning on Oath's part". All these comments rub me the wrong way for different reasons. I can elaborate if anyone wants me to, but suffice it to say I want to hear more from Cheesy.

[Music Box]

And...?

Sorry, I had to break off from this last night and haven't been able to think about it today. I'll definitely get to it tomorrow.

[Aristophanes]

VC 1.3

Oath

(2): MagnaofIllusion 14, Invisibility 17

RedCoyote

(2): Cheesy 5, Oath 22

Cheesy

(2): hitogoroshi 25, RedCoyote 43

Hitogoroshi

(1): Komala 4

Komala

(1): nonny 8

Not Voting

(1): Music Box 36

Posts reset in (expired on 2018-07-19 12:00:00).
D1 will end when a majority is reached or on July 28/18 at 12pm EST in (expired on 2018-07-28 12:00:00).
With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

Mod Notes:

Komala and Cheesy are being prodded.

[nonny]

Nothing big to post right now. Am also looking for a Cheesy response. VOTE: cheesy hope that encourages a post to happen.

L-2

[Oath]

@RedCoyote - hito said not utilizing a vote is 10 million percent scummy

[Komala]

Still don't know what to do/think (which is also why I'm late, sorry about that), so I'll take a look at everyone's ISOs.

Cheesy:

Post #11: This seemed really weird to me when I first saw it, like, wasn't this obviously just an RVS vote from nonny? I did have a few ideas what the reason might be, so I asked about it.
Post #24: So according to this post #11 was made both because they didn’t think it was random and because they wanted to help get the game started. I can kinda believe that, although I don't see why you'd think nonny's vote wasn't random. If not realizing it's random and wanting to get the game started is all there is to it, I'd say that's mostly NAI. If there's more... the only scum motivation I could see behind post #11 would be trying to buddy me. Now that I think about it, that actually might fit. In post #24 they also commend Music Box and Invisibility for helping the Oath wagon unfold, say Oath’s reasoning (on Coyote, I assume) is good and say that Oath not voting wasn't scummy, quoting my question to MoI in the process. So I suppose there's some kind of pattern of getting on people's good sides here. Isn't it also quite contradictory to both say that Oath’s wagon is justified and people should be commended for helping it unfold as well as that what Oath got wagoned for wasn't scummy?
Unsure if this is just weird or if it's weird for scum reasons, I'd like Cheesy to elaborate on their reasoning, but I'm considering a vote here.

hitogoroshi:

Has some good early game reads and is quite active at a point in the game when it's easy not to do much. Of course scum can do all of this as well for town credits, but so far everything seems genuine.

Invisibility:

Just a couple of one-liners, but these one-liners actually feel towny to me because I can very much empathize with his post #39 and I believe town might be more likely than scum to admit these kind of things (scum want to seem like they're doing a lot of scumhunting to seem towny and can fake reads at any point.) The vote in post #17 would've also been quite bold coming from scum.

MagnaOfIllusion:

Post #14: I believe I've asked a question about this that hasn't been answered yet
Post #27: "Your post came off as artificial and not wanting to make waves." < Oooh yeah, that might've been what felt off to me about Oath's first post. Will consider that when I get to Oath. I also like the question he asked here.
Post #37: OK, forget about my question, that explains your reasons behind post #14 anyway. And yeah, that makes sense. I also like the rest of his thoughts on Oath and Cheesy. Seems like active and genuine scumhunting similar to hitogoroshi. Although one thing that stands out to me here is that in this post that seems to be a case on Oath there's a lot of focus on MoI himself and how Oath is / should be reading him, for example "What I found the tiniest crumb that I could see some scum motivation on in the first page to make a vote to help move us out of RVS into real discussion (which given you claim RVS is useless should be very Pro-Town)" and "If you think my post is scum motivated why aren't you voting me again?", "Do you think Music Box and Invis are more actively moving the game forward as Town than me?". I'm not sure what I think about this yet.

Music Box:

Not much here yet, so I'll ask a question to Music Box: What did you like about Oath's responses? (See post #36)
Gut feeling is decent though.

Taking a break before taking a look at the other three.

Out of these five right now it's something like this for me (including gut feelings):

Invisibility
MagnaOfIllusion
hitogoroshi
Music Box
--null--
Cheesy

UNVOTE: hitogoroshi

Based on reads I want to vote Cheesy at the moment, but since I'm not really familiar with this site's voting mechanics (I'm used to plurality deadline lynches) I don't know if it's a good idea to put somebody at L-1 this early. Can anyone help me out here?

[nonny]

Cheesy is your least suspicious but you want to vote for him? Am I reading your list correctly?