Mini Theme 2022: Trapped! [Gameover]

[Irrelephant11]

207

I'm not mod but I don't see why not

[teacher]

208

I agree; I just wanted it explicit (from the mod) so nobody could woopsies that without also making clear that they aren't reading the thread.

[Irrelephant11]

209

okay, slight townread on you for that

at one point someone asked about the show re:red herrings - I watched an episode on Youtube and it seems pretty straightforward. It's usually played by kids, with each round only lasting a couple minutes to fit everything into a half hour. I don't think anything about the theme is here to trick us

[mutantdevle]

void

void means ignore this post when taking into consideration the counting. Eg. the previous post is 209 and the next will be 210.

Mod: Does the seven posts in a row rule extend across pages?

Yes.

[teacher]

210

back to ending on 5s

[Irrelephant11]

211

[Irrelephant11]

212

[Irrelephant11]

213

[Irrelephant11]

214

[Irrelephant11]

215

[GuiltyLion]

216

201

@Guilty and @Kokichi - what do you think was at all vague about NK15's shade? It was pretty clear and sunny to me.

If Kokichi faked the mistake in order to purposefully throw the current count, then he's scum. Full stop.
If Kokichi genuinely made a mistake, he could be careless town or careless scum.

Do you get the sense from Not Known 15 that he's actually expressing whether he thinks:
a) whether Kokichi faked the mistake?
b) whether Kokichi is scum?

Because I don't think he's actually taking a firm stance on either of those questions. He's just calling it "suspicious". He's implying that he

could

have faked it, but not saying that he necessarily did.

Heck, look at his clarification:

I am not sure that Kokichi faked their second mistake, but it is a possibility. It isn't a great scumtell though(but it makes Kokichi slightly scummy).

this is so waffley and wishy-washy. Which makes it scummy. He's not committing to firm opinions and giving himself room to either scumread Kokichi or back down if it goes too far against thread vibe. Not "clear and sunny" at all.

[GuiltyLion]

217

202

Also the "point" of the post seems pretty obvious - to advance the game by talking about suspicions. What were the points of your posts if not the same?

I didn't ask you what you thought the point of his post was. I asked Not Known 15 because I wanted his answer. Why are you jumping in like this, especially when NK15 didn't even explicitly answer this question towards him?

further, obviously yes that post can be said to "advance the game". But it ties back to my point about being wishy-washy and not taking firm stances. What is gained from simply calling somebody "suspicious"?? If he's trying to sell us on a Kokichi vote tonight, he's not doing a good job of it, because that's not a case and it's not convincing. If he's not actually scumreading Kokichi at all, then the post is useless directionless shade. and it's not directed at Kokichi, so he's clearly not trying to directly sort Kokichi himself.

So I find it a pointless post, one that's much more likely to come from scum trying to blend in and pretend to sort. In contrast, my posts are pretty explicitly meant to call out scummy behavior from NK15 quite directly, in the hopes that other townies will see what I'm saying and perhaps flip him tonight.

204

And even that is wrong, because Kokichi SAID they had read the rules.

Oh, sorry guys. I should read from

now

on.

a) No, he said he "should" read the rules, not that he did. So you are the one who is wrong
b) setting that aside, I'm not here to play semantics games, I'm here to play mafia. What's your actual disagreement here? Are you saying we should believe that Kokichi did in fact read the rules very carefully, and then purposefully faked a mistake? Or do you think he read the rules carefully and yet forgot them and made a genuine mistake?

I think there's little reason to assume Kokichi read the rules carefully given that he had already posted in thread without reading the challenge/rules, and it's more likely he just made a second mistake. If you disagree with me on that, explain why - am I to believe that you think this post means Kokichi could not have possibly missed the rule about the count having to be the first thing in your post?

If you don't disagree with that then what are you arguing about?

[GuiltyLion]

218

I don't like the amount of coasting currently going on in this game, especially as we get halfway through the day and continue to spam count. Very few people are actually trying to pressure anyone or express reads, and I feel we are speeding towards 325 and thread-lock, and then what will essentially be a random collection of votes tonight. randommidget hasn't even posted in thread yet.

I'd like everyone to say who they currently want to vote tonight and why

[Kokichi Oma]

219

205

I'm inclined to attribute Kokichi's agreement to OMGUS, and not add to the questions I have about them messing up the count twice. But Guilty's original post is the post of theirs I like the least this game.

How is that omgus when it's bad reasoning. If I planned to mess up I'd do it when the count was high

[teacher]

220

I’m mobile so I’ll be briefer than I normally am.

@guilty- Re385: I thought NK15’s post was a clear, and light, scumread. What you are criticizing as wishywashy I view as an honest portrayal that it was not significant but still worth discussing. Difference of opinion.

More important, re386: I didn’t jump in to answer. I waited literal hundreds of posts until after (1) NK posted without answering, (2) someone else echoed it, and (3) a third person asked me for a read on you. So it’s those three things that led me to talk about it.. Why are you so angry about it given theose three facts?

Re whether Kokichi knowingly screwed up a second time - not important to me. I’m slightly inclined to NK15’s view - that someone who knows they “should” read is more inclined to do so. I also question whether the second error was a fake “whoops”slip. But my read on Kokichi is pretty weak and primarily questions.

At this point, as for who I’d vote, it’s kind of a PoE pool of who I wouldn’t vote. Most people are still open game and I don’t have a scumread outside the margin of error. But I’m at you, Kokichi, pine, midget, and chickadee.

Since this has been long, I’ll repeat that it was post 220 and 221 comes next.

[Randomnamechange]

221
apologies for not posting, forgot to go on V/LA/ here now

[Irrelephant11]

222

Honestly best scum strat this game day might be to just help town win the round, accept the existence of one fortunate, and let town totally mislynch. Hm...

Re-reading for lynchpool

[GuiltyLion]

223

@guilty- Re385: I thought NK15’s post was a clear, and light, scumread. What you are criticizing as wishywashy I view as an honest portrayal that it was not significant but still worth discussing. Difference of opinion.

More important, re386: I didn’t jump in to answer. I waited literal hundreds of posts until after (1) NK posted without answering, (2) someone else echoed it, and (3) a third person asked me for a read on you. So it’s those three things that led me to talk about it.. Why are you so angry about it given theose three facts?

I don't believe in things that are "not significant yet worth discussing". Especially since there should be a relatively clear binary on either he faked it or he didn't. You can't have it both ways, yet NK15 - and now you as well - are trying to have it both ways.

And you did jump in to answer a question that wasn't directed at you, none of those things change that fact or matter to me. The question was towards NK15, I don't really care at all what your opinion about it is. And am I really "so angry"? Tone policing much? I am being direct and aggressive sure, but not "angry", and it's noteworthy that you're trying to frame it as such.

Re whether Kokichi knowingly screwed up a second time - not important to me. I’m slightly inclined to NK15’s view - that someone who knows they “should” read is more inclined to do so. I also question whether the second error was a fake “whoops”slip. But my read on Kokichi is pretty weak and primarily questions.

how is it not important to you? If he knowingly screwed up, he's scum!

and this second point is barely cogent to me. Is it alignment indicative to be someone who "should" read? like personally I think scum generally feel slightly more inclined to read carefully and make sure they understand what's going on, but honestly I see that point as fairly NAI overall as some people are careful/meticulous as either alignment and some people just don't care.

At this point, as for who I’d vote, it’s kind of a PoE pool of who I wouldn’t vote. Most people are still open game and I don’t have a scumread outside the margin of error. But I’m at you, Kokichi, pine, midget, and chickadee.

Nice dodge! Which of those five would you actually vote? You can't vote 5 people, you need to choose one.

And what's the case on pine? Are we just enforcing a "anyone who screwed up is more likely to be scum" policy? That seems really shallow.

[GuiltyLion]

224

Also teacher, I feel like you've ignored the point of the second half of my 386 (or we're speaking past eachother). You quoted that Kokichi post about how he "should read from now on" to suggest that I am wrong for thinking it's more likely Kokichi just genuinely missed the rule about count being at the top of your posts. But then you say you're not sure whether you think it was a "fake" slip, that you have mostly questions right now.

If you're not sure, then how are you going to say I'm "wrong" for coming to the opposite conclusion and not putting much stock in Kokichi's 111? Do you believe 111 actually implicates Kokichi? If not, then why bring it up?

[Not Known 15]

225

Yes, the question whether Kokichi faked it or not is binary.
But the question how high the chances of faking are is not binary.
That's what a scumlean is- you think that there is above average probability that they are scum, but not necessarily very high probability. For Kokichi I'd say I am currently at about thirty- five percent, as a rough estimate.

[Not Known 15]

226

[Not Known 15]

227

[Not Known 15]

228

[Not Known 15]

229

[teacher]

230

Ive now started to draft, and lost, this three times. Screw rent-a-laptops. If this is unclear, Im probably assuming I said something that was in one of the former drafts, so please ask. (I also now see NK has covered the basic point in far less room).

*****

@Guilty, Im going to respond one last time then stop, because Im not getting anything AI out of this. Feel free to have the last word, though I will answer any questions you have.

I don't believe in things that are "not significant yet worth discussing".

I do. I discuss very weak scumreads. Especially on D1. Especially when D1 is even lower information than normal. But you don’t. Fair enough, we have a difference of opinion. You do you. But I do scumread how aggressively you seem to be assuming that your opinion must be right.

there should be a relatively clear binary on either he faked it or he didn't

Ummm, only from his perspective? For the rest of us, there is only a guess of whether he faked it or didn’t? So my views of human predilections as well as the text of his followup post point me one way, but I admit it’s an assumption that could very easily be wrong? Where do you think otherwise?

I am being direct and aggressive sure, but not "angry"

You aren’t here to play semantics? You sure?

how is it not important to you? ....
....
... honestly I see that point as fairly NAI overall

Hey look, you answered your own question.

Nice dodge! Which of those five would you actually vote? …. Are we just enforcing a "anyone who screwed up is more likely to be scum" policy? That seems really shallow.

As for the vote, it depends on how the day progresses. As for the primary factor in my PoE pool, it is less “errors” and more “who has done the least to advance town”. You’ll notice most of my pool are low on the activity bar. If you think anyone is lock scum right now, or even significantly +rand scum, you either have way better skills or way more knowledge than me.

you've ignored the point of the second half of my 386 (or we're speaking past eachother). . . . . how are you going to say I'm "wrong" for coming to the opposite conclusion

Semantics again. I have no problem with your coming at Kokichi’s 111 differently, though I think it's less likely. What I have a problem with is your

underlined red text

conclusion that NK15 is necessarily scum because he reached what I view as the more likely conclusion and expressed it in an understandable manner.

*****

To be clear, Im not defending NK. He’s pretty much a pure null. But I was responding to both Kokichi and you. And F off for telling me not to answer a question. I will talk about whatever I want to talk about.

Finally, because this is a wall, I will remind the board that it is 230 and 231 is next.