NY214: Project Pinecone (Game over! Town wins!)

[profii]

But yea I made a mistake on the Elbirn wagon just like you did there and you have just death tunnelled me since so excuse me for not being overly interested in what you have to say

I’m still happy to die at this point - I’d expect TW to go straight after as well

[Taly]

5 made me lol if that helps

But yea I made a mistake on the Elbirn wagon just like you did there and you have just death tunnelled me since so excuse me for not being overly interested in what you have to say

I’m still happy to die at this point - I’d expect TW to go straight after as well

Posts like these keep me from second-guessing my scumread on you.

You deem me as death-tunneling when I've only just now pushed you specifically. I don't have a problem at all with you responding, that's what I WANT to happen so I can sort you better.

You saying that you're happy to die ONLY if it means

TW

- a likely town role, if not, a non-scum role - dies as well, is the exact opposite of what I've said is helpful for Town right now.

And yeah, I admit I messed up with names in the previous post. But why are you drawing a connection between us if I'm so wrong about you being scum? I still don't fully understand your read on

A50

, even now. You townread them, but you put them up as a lynch option next yourself without contest, after you already pushed me for formulating a case on

Elbirn

, the person originally in his slot.

Honestly

profii

, if you're really town, can we actually discuss reads and the gamestate?

Why is

xyzzy

a good lynch to you?

[Taly]

X_X My access to the computer for the next few days is about to be over with. I've had more free time than I thought since I begun VLA, but I'm going to be phoneposting starting now, and until late Friday or the weekend.

[profii]

Wait I’ve messed up the replacements

[profii]

5 made me lol if that helps

But yea I made a mistake on the Elbirn wagon just like you did there and you have just death tunnelled me since so excuse me for not being overly interested in what you have to say

I’m still happy to die at this point - I’d expect TW to go straight after as well

Posts like these keep me from second-guessing my scumread on you.

You deem me as death-tunneling when I've only just now pushed you specifically. I don't have a problem at all with you responding, that's what I WANT to happen so I can sort you better.

You saying that you're happy to die ONLY if it means

TW

- a likely town role, if not, a non-scum role - dies as well, is the exact opposite of what I've said is helpful for Town right now.

And yeah, I admit I messed up with names in the previous post. But why are you drawing a connection between us if I'm so wrong about you being scum? I still don't fully understand your read on

A50

, even now. You townread them, but you put them up as a lynch option next yourself without contest, after you already pushed me for formulating a case on

Elbirn

, the person originally in his slot.

Honestly

profii

, if you're really town, can we actually discuss reads and the gamestate?

Why is

xyzzy

a good lynch to you?

The bit about TW -

I think if TW dies, less night kills, means more day lynches - means the kills are more considered. Even if we give TW a pool _and_ he decides to stick within it, I still think he will serve his own agenda

Whereas you think whittling down the pack is better - this is exactly how I play as scum, I played a game with a SK and I wanted them alive as long as poss to help us get to lylo quickly


I don’t know how you get to your side of the debate being pro town and you’ll never convince me. I’m guessing I’ll never convince you either so I’m not spending any more time there but it’s fairly easy to wrap that up

[profii]

Idk a50 is still a slot I just want to flip to learn how to read more than because of a read

You made some good points when his wagon was at its max but I don’t trust you

Also I don’t know a50 but he actively said he didn’t read the thread bar flips (that might be his thing) and he hasn’t done toooo much to find scum- his biggest contribution was the quote of known meta- seems like someone who is very conscious of how others perceive him

So whilst I don’t trust you and I’m suspicious of the wagon, it also seems like a good wagon at the same time so maybe I’m just paranoid.

[Almost50]

Idk a50 is still a slot I just want to flip to learn how to read more than because of a read

You made some good points when his wagon was at its max but I don’t trust you

Also I don’t know a50 but he actively said he didn’t read the thread bar flips (that might be his thing) and he hasn’t done toooo much to find scum- his biggest contribution was the quote of known meta- seems like someone who is very conscious of how others perceive him

So whilst I don’t trust you and I’m suspicious of the wagon, it also seems like a good wagon at the same time so maybe I’m just paranoid.

1- You will get my flip regardless, even if it had to wait till endgame. (that's the response for your 1st line)
2- Amendment: It's not that easy to learn how to read me though, so my mere flip won't give you much in the future. Play more frequently with me instead and you may get to learn to gut read me or something.
3- I am conscious of how people read me and why they do, yes. It's always fun to know why someone pops up with TR on you without having to interrogate them and expose both your roles. (Not really applicable in this very game, but it has and will always become handy in many games).
4- It's also fun to know why some people SR me aside from my general playstyle to determine if that's a genuine SR or a scum-driven fake push.
5- I find it a bit surprising that you'd bring this issue up at this precise time. You have 3 lynch candidates (one is you) and I am not even supporting your lynch. This coming from "certain other players I know better than I do you" would have alerted me to the possibility of there being TWO scums in our top 3 candidates (and it's not HWS if I had to pick the townie one).

@xy: You offered to claim. I either missed the claim itself or you never claimed. "If someone wants me to" sounds really bad and hints of stalling. Please claim if you haven't already (or point me to where you did if you did)

[Gamma Emerald]

why does the wagon im NOT on consist of all the people that have either NOT actually read my posts {Almost50 and Gamma/Andrius to an extent} or HAVE actually read my posts? {MOI, Rask, Inferno}

Doesn't that include...everyone?

[the worst]

@profii regarding throwing shade at my abilities as a killing role:
refer post 0
report back

[Gamma Emerald]

Because I've been restricted to my phone in part. And because we all don't want to lynch Chick or Sky.

Chick is town anyway
Sky I was interested in but then it died out

[profii]

@profii regarding throwing shade at my abilities as a killing role:
refer post 0
report back

Not really I’m just saying democratically killing is better

That isn’t saying you are bad, just not as good as a vote

But talking of throwing shade...

[the worst]

damn right! if you're gonna throw shade do it well. :3

also not lynching profii today
VOTE: HWS

[MagnaofIllusion]

First things first – could we stop trying to legislate how Fruit is handled aka “Popcorn claim”. If you get fruit overnight you should be thrilled to claim it in your first post. It is safe to assume that if someone’s first post of the day doesn’t have a fruit claim they didn’t get it. From there how the claims are parsed can depend on how the day plays out.

Also I am happy with my vote seeing posts from Xyzzy like 2507. He’s working to somehow justify the need for a system when it isn’t needed. It smells like scum who’s trying hard to softly undermine potential clears / muddy the waters on players getting cleared. I mean it is pretty straightforward – tomorrow there should only be one fruit claim. Two people claim? Ausuka then says “I targeted Player X” and discussion can begin on how best to handle the claim based on reads (since I don’t trust Aus to not be scum as of now). Not to mention potential for hypothetical tracker / watcher roles to confim / bust claims.

Also feel the way Xyzzy is dancing around claiming (hinting they have something worth claiming but not actively doing it even when at L-1 with deadline approaching) smells like scum waiting for the last second to fake-claim. Caught CultofAthena doing just that in The Thaw Day 1.

--

On a final note, I don’t know why there are still people calling me probscum.

Like, I’m acutely aware of the fact that my playstyle is scummy anyways

, but unless someone can actually bring a reasonable, fleshed out narrative on how my associations with dram is scum, please buzz off. And if you do, I’d love to hear it.
Because at this point I don’t even see how that accusation makes sense atp.

Also, I’ve decidedly that I’ve been using a term wrong. I’m not conftown. I’m just NARRARTIVELY IMPOSSIBLE TO BE SCUM.
Which is the same thing, but hey.

You know why people think you are possible bussing scum Inferno? Because the only people who yell loudly like you have done all today about how they can’t possibly be scum tend to flip scum. Town who feel like their player speaks for itself ... let it. This site is littered with people who have hardbussed in situations where it makes no sense to do so and then get frustrated when they don’t cruise to endgame wins. Plus the bolded above is just so bad it pains me. I mean I think you are probably Town but crap like this is why I’ve counselled confirmed Town Andy to just ignore you. If you know you are playing scummy STOP DOING IT. The only person who controls that is you.

--

and how tf has HWS gone to L-2 within 2 days of my vote when there's only a fraction of the playerlist that have worked to be cohesive with me?

Step back and think about this Taly … why would a wagon spring up in direct counter to Xyzzy when the people who are working with you is small?

MOI can you case me your thoughts on Sky? I don't like compromise lynches, and it feels like xyzzy and SOMEWHAT HWS are fitting this bill tbh.

Here is the big picture for you Taly. Day 1 Sky’s posting looks very much like scum not wanting to make waves. Her suspicions, as you have noted, were all piggybacked directly from other players and in the nice safe direction that was popular at the moment of posting. That continued into Day 2 until the point where we got down to the “Pool of Death”. At which point Sky starts being more active and focuses in directly on one player – Profii. Read through her posts since she started calling Profii scum. It feels to me like someone looking at Profii’s posting and picking out what can be attacked as opposed to an honest attempt to read the slot. It smells like survivalism … she still found a PoE acceptable target but could no longer lay back on the comfy bed of “Maybe Newbie” due to the gamestate.

I’m not going to do a point by point case because frankly … I don’t have the time. But really read through that ISO and look from a high level “why is Sky acting the way they are now”. As a reminder – I think they are also a hidden Alt and thus any “Newbie” status I may have filtered my Day 1 read is completely out the door.

As for not liking compromise lynches – yeah I get where you stand but this game is in a rare gamestate Day 2 where we have a pool of very likely scum and are only compromising in that pool.

From your posts, I assume you have a light associative to Sky-Xyzzy? Or at least scumread them strongly on an independent level?

I made an assessment of xyzzy-profii unlikely to be scum together. 2376

Can you give me your read on profii? Do you see any associative with profii-Sky or profii-xyzzy that I don't see IF you scumread profii still?

Yeah I don’t tend to do strong association analysis on unflipped / uncopped players. I scum-read Sky strongest of all the pool of death. Xyzzy at the start of today was in the lower portion of that pool but I’m seeing scum intent all over the place today since they became a topic of interest.

Profi (sorry man for what I am about to say) feels like low-hanging fruit. Doesn’t make them Town but the ease with which pressure has been applied there makes me somewhat hesitant. I’m also very hesitant that my strongest scum read is pushing them.

I saw your case. While I respect your views and take them into consideration I think that there are conclusions there that are somewhat colored by your play expectations and one thing I’ve learned over the years is that alternate play methods can be confounding when logicing out associations of living players.

He, and the Mafia team, do not want each other to survive. So the Mafia wouldn't want him to last long, and TW - despite alignment - would rather survive to kill as many Mafia as possible.

Don’t take this personally Taly but this is pretty wrong.

Theworst’s only shot as a SK is to thin out Town enough that he can’t ever actually be lynched and be Dayhunting Mafia. Of course if he wants to gamethrow that’s his choice. But if he’s playing to win he absolutely doesn’t want to kill Mafia. Otherwise we drop to a single kill and people go “Whelp … time to have Duck Flambe” for the loss.

Likewise the Mafia absolutely don’t want him dead as we are in a good state as Town and the only way to reverse that is for mass Town casualties. Which translates to shooting Town until a point where the gamestate is not so dangerous via POE.

But given theWorst has a very limited pool of shots that don’t result in “Hang the SK” we can let it go for at least a couple of days until he proves he’s not a Vig with a questionable shot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI HitAlt basically put all of his cards on the table day two and was the first to do so, and those cards seem to line up with his D1 play. I really think Hit playing the way he did day one would absolutely tank his chances of surviving as scum the more I think about it. It could be some wild gambit, but on D1 in a large game? If he was scum he'd be bound to know that that kind of softclaiming gambit would get him sorted sooner rather than later. As for Andrius, he has been a huge town read of mine since day one and he's semi-clear from your fruit. If you were to flip scum, I highly doubt you'd risk the gambit of trying to clear your scum partner - I think it's much more likely that scum-MoI would want to spread wifom over a strong town player. So right now that narrows it down to yourself and Ausuka (going on the assumption that one of the investigatives is scum), and I've stated why I think Ausuka's claim doesn't come from scum already. I think your argument about my D2 play getting suspiciously better is pretty bad; there's more for me to go off of after flips and I've been playing a lot more mafia lately so I feel more comfortable in my reads and logic at the moment.

I wanted to directly respond to this because I think the logic here needs a spotlight.

First on HitAlt - this response show why it isn't from a persepctive of honestly thinking about HitAlt. It's already been said in thread (Rask and I have talked about it) that the role he claimed isn't 100% Town. It actually can reasonably be a scum role used to detect a Serial Killer. That's not completely out of the question. Yet this doesn't even impact Sky's thinking. She's all about "If it is scum it's a gambit that's dangerous". Clearly that is true (although it is also possible if TheWorst is a Vig Gamma could be a RoleCop also ... for reasons TheWorst articulated and a Tracker / Watcher would not catch that fake-claim out) but Sky doesn't even have to consider these possibilities .. she knows Gamma / HitAlt isn't a partner.

I'm setting aside Andy because he's 100% clear to me so I'm never arguing he's scum.

As for Ausuka - the "claim doesn't come from scum" angle also doesn't float. I put Aus on her heels with my info drop. Scum Aus has no real choice but to claim otherwise down the line concealing would be clear sign between the two of us who was scum. Now I do grant there is a small possibility she's also Town but again Sky is clearing her on dubious grounds. I also think there is enough hedging in this response about that issue that if there is scum in the group of us it is Aus.

This is just a micro example of why I don't think her posts show Town intent ... she's framing facts in the way that justifies her reads as opposed to actually considering alignment as if it is unknown.

[Skygazer]

MoI I've never actually considered that detective could be a scum counter to a serial killer. Has someone brought that up before? Because that actually seems in the realm of possibility and you're right that I hadn't considered it.

Clearly you have to argue that your claim made Ausuka scramble but that's honestly not how I'm seeing it, it seems like she genuinely feels that she caught scum with that counterclaim.

It feels like you're trying to discredit my reads by saying there's no way I could possibly know that Gamma/Ausuka are town but that's not at all what I'm getting at. I'm allowed to have reads, I'm allowed to use information in the game to arrive at those reads, the fact that you're trying to paint me as scummy for using information to arrive at the reads I've arrived at doesn't really sit right with me at all. Did I ever say that I 100% know that gamma/andrius/ausuka are town? No, if I did then I would've voted you immediately. I'm not sure why you're painting me as scum for not considering these various possibilities when the fact is I've only been on this site for a month and haven't had the experience with set-up design/spec to even consider those possibilities. You calling me a hidden alt for very flimsy reasoning feels like an absolute cop-out to just dismiss how other players are interprering my play at the moment.

You argue that the pressure hit profii way too easily but couldn't you say the same about xyzzy? Xyzzy was basically run up to L-1 with very little resistance, why aren't you considering the possibility that scum could be content with that wagon?

[Inferno390]

I could make a giant wall about how I’m town and my meta and all this other crud, but it’s not worth the space. So I’m just gonna say this:

I have challenged every single player who has accused me of bussing dramonic as my partner to show a reasonable narrative for it. So far, I have not seen a shred of anything in response. If the only reason I’m getting scumread is a bussing claim that no one can back up, I will keep shoving that in people’s faces until something changes. I will not back down on that stance.

[Raskolnikov]

think xyzzy might be better than profii
theres a world in which profii is unorthodox town

his reaction to pressure is fine

[Taly]

UNVOTE:

[Raskolnikov]

though idk xyzzy is like softing i guess but I feel like theres already decent power and ive generally been too lenient on claims

wouldnt mind lynching almost50 for his selffocus and though he voted xy the way he did was kinda bad

[brassherald]

Whats the vote counts look like?

[Taly]

phoneposting until Saturday but I don't think VLA was necessary in hindsight x.x

I think I've let my own game biases and standard cloud my thinking here.

...it's my biggest problem in Mafia.
MOI and occasionally Rask have helped me with this in this game.

Basically, a lot of what MOI says and his prompting questions to me are giving me some clarity, or helping me in a certain direction.

Nothing has come from my HWS or profii pushes except for the same people who almost follow my vote pattern without engaging with me much.

I can also see profii as town feeling actual paranoia about my slot ans those he has questioned. It doesn't read as scum muddying the waters given his vote history.

He was also more forthcoming when he was Mafia in Open 712 and i hardpushed him now that I think more about it... even as scum

Sky, why did you vote for HWS in the first place? Also, the reasons behind your profii read haven't changed since you originally voted him from what I've seen

I want to hear more about your xyzzy townread

Same HWS question goes to TW

[the worst]

I pretty stably haven't liked HWS

profii has kinda fluctuated but I think elements of his recent posting are town indicative. he's had inconsistent but minor towny pings throughout the game between his less lovely moments and idk. on the balance of probabilities I just don't wanna lynch him as much as HWS today

[Skygazer]

Mostly a PoE compromise. I think HWS could fit the bill for a profii partner, I haven't really seen much townposting from him, he fits the description of demotivated scum, he dropped his scumread on me when I wasn't a lynch option anymore, etc etc.

I really liked xyzzy's D1 posting, I think their flashwagon fits the bill for a dram counterwagon especially when you see that A50 started it and profii was on it, and I have the feeling they're being used to counterwagon profii/HWS as well. Their D2 posting hasn't been fantastic though and considering all of the claimed roles I'm not sure if I'm willing to buy that softclaim but I still think it's a bad choice compared to profii.

My reasons on profii haven't changed because he hasn't been doing much right now besides calling for his own death and putting a survivalistic L-1 vote on xyzzy.

[Skygazer]

I really wish I've played with profii before so I could evaluate that meta argument though

[the worst]

yeah the fact xyzzy is near lynch again is kinda gross lmfao
unless they're just scum but eh we can sort that out l8r