Mini 2014: Succinct Mafia (Over)

[Dunnstral]

What don't you understand Hiraki? Eevee was my biggest scumread and Pine was my second

[MathBlade]

@Hiraki, K. Yesterday you said you didn't like some of Dunn's phrasings. Can you clarify that with examples?

They read bad in post-sight. I might've called them good before but there's something I didn't really get about them. That had a lot to do with how Lucky had Eevee and Pine pinned as scum together. I never ever got that feeling and we agreed on reads there. I think Wisdom even called me out on this and I just said I dunno.

Pine you need to get on eevee

When, at the same time:

2. Earlier in the game I'd disagree with this, but given the state of the game now, this is correct. Just sticking a single vote on someone when there are 2 or 3 other wagons going, the proponents of which aren't budging very much, is not going to go anywhere and Eevee must know this.
If Eevee actually proposed any kind of case for pushing Pine, I'd feel better about it.

Seems like a scum on scum interaction to me - eevee with pine

I get the feeling that Fuzzy is town, also I don't like seeing pine and sircakez on there

1) cause honestly i dont see why mom got killed at all

Why does that mean it wasn't pine specifically?

Weird that you said this but now can't back it up or even explain your thought process here

It's only after they CC that this theory (obviously) drops but it's weird in hindsight. There's really no reason to push it this hard. Which is something to note when the CC does happen -

I'm the doctor. Back off

Now stop with the counter wagons and get on eevee

I don't get where this shift comes from.

This argument makes 0 sense with an encryptor in play

[TrinityNZ]

Hey I’m really sorry, I’m going on holiday to Rarotonga on Saturday for a week, and probably won’t have internet. Is it best to go on V/LA or ask for a replacement? I thought the game wouldn’t last this long.

[TrinityNZ]

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

[Hiraki]

@Hiraki, K. Yesterday you said you didn't like some of Dunn's phrasings. Can you clarify that with examples?

They read bad in post-sight. I might've called them good before but there's something I didn't really get about them. That had a lot to do with how Lucky had Eevee and Pine pinned as scum together. I never ever got that feeling and we agreed on reads there. I think Wisdom even called me out on this and I just said I dunno.

Pine you need to get on eevee

When, at the same time:

2. Earlier in the game I'd disagree with this, but given the state of the game now, this is correct. Just sticking a single vote on someone when there are 2 or 3 other wagons going, the proponents of which aren't budging very much, is not going to go anywhere and Eevee must know this.
If Eevee actually proposed any kind of case for pushing Pine, I'd feel better about it.

Seems like a scum on scum interaction to me - eevee with pine

I get the feeling that Fuzzy is town, also I don't like seeing pine and sircakez on there

1) cause honestly i dont see why mom got killed at all

Why does that mean it wasn't pine specifically?

Weird that you said this but now can't back it up or even explain your thought process here

It's only after they CC that this theory (obviously) drops but it's weird in hindsight. There's really no reason to push it this hard. Which is something to note when the CC does happen -

I'm the doctor. Back off

Now stop with the counter wagons and get on eevee

I don't get where this shift comes from.

This argument makes 0 sense with an encryptor in play

No, I thought about this too. Go on with that thought.

[MathBlade]

I did. Your argument makes no sense. So pretend like I am five and explain it to me.

Trinity Jingle still looks good. Hiraki I dunno.

I really wanna see how Jingle responds here.

[LuckyOtter]

Dunn, what are your reads?

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

Are you implying that you think this is the plan to follow or are you asking for direction here?

Like I said, that's the easiest answer. It aligns with both Umlaut's and Wisdom's thoughts. I have expressed my doubts about those two as scum, and about you and Dunn as town, but since I'm still here and both Umlaut and Wisdom are gone, I'm willing to assume that at least one of my reads here is off, possibly all of them.
--
I am not following either Math or Hiraki here.

So scum!Dunn is distancing from Pine and pushing for Eevee lynch saying both are scum. Dunn knows Pine is going to claim (via encryptor), which is going to allow him to go after Eevee, again. So he can comfortably vote Pine for a bit knowing he's going to get to go back to voting Eevee.
Or, town!Dunn legit believes both Pine and Eevee are scum, and does some digging into that line of thought. After the claims, he has to decide which is scum and chooses Eevee, presumably because Eevee was the stronger scumread from the beginning (which he just said, and reading his ISO checks out)

Either scenario seems plausible to me and I don't see how the encryptor in play changes things.

[MathBlade]

Dunn, what are your reads?

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

Are you implying that you think this is the plan to follow or are you asking for direction here?

Like I said, that's the easiest answer. It aligns with both Umlaut's and Wisdom's thoughts. I have expressed my doubts about those two as scum, and about you and Dunn as town, but since I'm still here and both Umlaut and Wisdom are gone, I'm willing to assume that at least one of my reads here is off, possibly all of them.
--
I am not following either Math or Hiraki here.

So scum!Dunn is distancing from Pine and pushing for Eevee lynch saying both are scum. Dunn knows Pine is going to claim (via encryptor), which is going to allow him to go after Eevee, again. So he can comfortably vote Pine for a bit knowing he's going to get to go back to voting Eevee.
Or, town!Dunn legit believes both Pine and Eevee are scum, and does some digging into that line of thought. After the claims, he has to decide which is scum and chooses Eevee, presumably because Eevee was the stronger scumread from the beginning (which he just said, and reading his ISO checks out)

Either scenario seems plausible to me and I don't see how the encryptor in play changes things.

With an encryptor in play scum has zero reason to tell a buddy
“Partner you need to do <x>” they say it in the daychat.

Hiraki’s argument that scum!Dunnstral would openly say his buddy needs to change votes in the game thread is silly

[Jingle]

What’s the proper strategy here Jingle?

I recognize all of these as English words.

I recognize that together those words form a sentence.

I don't recognize that sentence as having any meaning at all in the context of this game, and would appreciate translation.

I await your mysterious scumtell, preferably sooner than later, so that I can tell if you're blowing smoke up my ass or just hilariously wrong.

And for the record, I have read the thread at this point.

@LO: What?

viewtopic.php?p=10176950#p10176950

The place where your scum tell exists.

You said you had to be lynched before Mylo. I scumread you. You’re following a scum tell.

You need to die.

What are your reads in more detail?

Counter-argument:

Grey Flag Geriatric Game.

I do need to die.

I'm working on them as we speak. When I'm ready, I'll talk about them, but until then I'd like to engage with the players in thread and refine them. I only get the one shot at this, and my read so far is that scum is rather unworried by the gamestate. That means I need to be thorough. We have the time to play solve the thread, so I'm going to work on solving the thread.

@Jingle, if you've read the thread, there should be no confusion at this point

False Dichotomy.

Let's phrase this a different way then. Why does it make any sense for me to be specifically a likely scumpartner to someone on the basis that I was attempting to engage a townread about their suspicion on that player? Specifically, what is the logical reason that leads you to the partner conclusion based on me replacing in and asking someone to talk MORE about why a particular player is scum, especially after I have already expressed that I cannot be allowed to survive into LYLO?

Hey I’m really sorry, I’m going on holiday to Rarotonga on Saturday for a week, and probably won’t have internet. Is it best to go on V/LA or ask for a replacement? I thought the game wouldn’t last this long.

Normally, I'd say a week is the limit and you should ask for a replacement. In this particular case, I happen to know that mastina has been having some issues finding replacements and it might just be best to stay in it.

I'd be fine with letting you go V/LA that long given the relaxed nature of this game, but you might also consider telling mastina that you are requesting replacement, but that if your slot is still vacant when you return you'd be happy to resume playing in it. That way the game isn't stalled on your account if it would otherwise have been progressing, but she doesn't have to deal with as much pressure searching for a replacement for your slot would normally cause.

[LuckyOtter]

@Math, right, but is that what he's arguing? Actually, let's let Hiraki answer that.
--

@Jingle, if you've read the thread, there should be no confusion at this point

False Dichotomy.

It's not, really. Both Umlaut and Wisdom had you and Hiraki as Pine buddies. They are both dead. The easy answer to this is you and Hiraki are scum. That doesn't make it the right answer, but it's the easy answer and you should be well aware of this if you've read the thread. I believe you've read the thread, just not that you are confused about why people are putting you and Hiraki together.

Let's phrase this a different way then. Why does it make any sense for me to be specifically a likely scumpartner to someone on the basis that I was attempting to engage a townread about their suspicion on that player? Specifically, what is the logical reason that leads you to the partner conclusion based on me replacing in and asking someone to talk MORE about why a particular player is scum, especially after I have already expressed that I cannot be allowed to survive into LYLO?

On a purely gut level, your asking Wisdom about Hiraki reads a tad defensive and disingenuous to me. Wisdom already said he was pretty much following Umlaut on that, so that much should have been clear to you. It read to me as challenging Wisdom, not engaging him to elaborate. I could be wrong there but you are clearly not a minimalist poster so a short "Why Hiraki" doesn't seem likely to be genuinely engaging from you.

Regardless, the more important thing here is that you seem to be implying that it wouldn't make any sense for scum!you to ask Wisdom to elaborate on his scumread of scum!Hiraki. Why not? For one thing, it would make perfect sense if the goal is to distance yourself from Hiraki. I mean, here you are saying "why would I do this to my partner?', so in the event of your lynch, you would hope that we'd say "well he probably wasn't trying to put that much attention on his partner, so it can't be Hiraki."

For another thing, I'd think Wisdom giving a really vague but determined scumread on your partner would be really scary for you as scum. There's no chance to reason with him and he has potential to be very influential on the town, so getting Wisdom to elaborate on his scumread would give both you and Hiraki a chance to refute some points and diffuse suspicion (if not for Wisdom, then for the rest of the town). Whether or not you are present to do so is irrelevant. The fact that you didn't get this from Wisdom, saw that he was consistently giving vague reads over the game and wasn't likely going to be engaging you or Hiraki in any sort of 1v1 that would be beneficial to you or especially Hiraki in endgame makes his NK make perfect sense in this scenario.

[Hiraki]

Dunn, what are your reads?

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

Are you implying that you think this is the plan to follow or are you asking for direction here?

Like I said, that's the easiest answer. It aligns with both Umlaut's and Wisdom's thoughts. I have expressed my doubts about those two as scum, and about you and Dunn as town, but since I'm still here and both Umlaut and Wisdom are gone, I'm willing to assume that at least one of my reads here is off, possibly all of them.
--
I am not following either Math or Hiraki here.

So scum!Dunn is distancing from Pine and pushing for Eevee lynch saying both are scum. Dunn knows Pine is going to claim (via encryptor), which is going to allow him to go after Eevee, again. So he can comfortably vote Pine for a bit knowing he's going to get to go back to voting Eevee.
Or, town!Dunn legit believes both Pine and Eevee are scum, and does some digging into that line of thought. After the claims, he has to decide which is scum and chooses Eevee, presumably because Eevee was the stronger scumread from the beginning (which he just said, and reading his ISO checks out)

Either scenario seems plausible to me and I don't see how the encryptor in play changes things.

With an encryptor in play scum has zero reason to tell a buddy
“Partner you need to do <x>” they say it in the daychat.

Hiraki’s argument that scum!Dunnstral would openly say his buddy needs to change votes in the game thread is silly

Pine didn't care even a little about this game. You think he really checked a PT over the thread?

[TrinityNZ]

Dunn, what are your reads?

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

Are you implying that you think this is the plan to follow or are you asking for direction here?

Like I said, that's the easiest answer. It aligns with both Umlaut's and Wisdom's thoughts. I have expressed my doubts about those two as scum, and about you and Dunn as town, but since I'm still here and both Umlaut and Wisdom are gone, I'm willing to assume that at least one of my reads here is off, possibly all of them.
--
I am not following either Math or Hiraki here.

So scum!Dunn is distancing from Pine and pushing for Eevee lynch saying both are scum. Dunn knows Pine is going to claim (via encryptor), which is going to allow him to go after Eevee, again. So he can comfortably vote Pine for a bit knowing he's going to get to go back to voting Eevee.
Or, town!Dunn legit believes both Pine and Eevee are scum, and does some digging into that line of thought. After the claims, he has to decide which is scum and chooses Eevee, presumably because Eevee was the stronger scumread from the beginning (which he just said, and reading his ISO checks out)

Either scenario seems plausible to me and I don't see how the encryptor in play changes things.

With an encryptor in play scum has zero reason to tell a buddy
“Partner you need to do <x>” they say it in the daychat.

Hiraki’s argument that scum!Dunnstral would openly say his buddy needs to change votes in the game thread is silly

Pine didn't care even a little about this game. You think he really checked a PT over the thread?

I think it’s the plan.

I’ll vote now before I disappear.

VOTE: jingle

[MathBlade]

What’s the proper strategy here Jingle?

I recognize all of these as English words.

I recognize that together those words form a sentence.

I don't recognize that sentence as having any meaning at all in the context of this game, and would appreciate translation.

I await your mysterious scumtell, preferably sooner than later, so that I can tell if you're blowing smoke up my ass or just hilariously wrong.

And for the record, I have read the thread at this point.

@LO: What?

viewtopic.php?p=10176950#p10176950

The place where your scum tell exists.

You said you had to be lynched before Mylo. I scumread you. You’re following a scum tell.

You need to die.

What are your reads in more detail?

Counter-argument:

Grey Flag Geriatric Game.

I do need to die.

I'm working on them as we speak. When I'm ready, I'll talk about them, but until then I'd like to engage with the players in thread and refine them. I only get the one shot at this, and my read so far is that scum is rather unworried by the gamestate. That means I need to be thorough. We have the time to play solve the thread, so I'm going to work on solving the thread.

@Jingle, if you've read the thread, there should be no confusion at this point

False Dichotomy.

Let's phrase this a different way then. Why does it make any sense for me to be specifically a likely scumpartner to someone on the basis that I was attempting to engage a townread about their suspicion on that player? Specifically, what is the logical reason that leads you to the partner conclusion based on me replacing in and asking someone to talk MORE about why a particular player is scum, especially after I have already expressed that I cannot be allowed to survive into LYLO?

Hey I’m really sorry, I’m going on holiday to Rarotonga on Saturday for a week, and probably won’t have internet. Is it best to go on V/LA or ask for a replacement? I thought the game wouldn’t last this long.

Normally, I'd say a week is the limit and you should ask for a replacement. In this particular case, I happen to know that mastina has been having some issues finding replacements and it might just be best to stay in it.

I'd be fine with letting you go V/LA that long given the relaxed nature of this game, but you might also consider telling mastina that you are requesting replacement, but that if your slot is still vacant when you return you'd be happy to resume playing in it. That way the game isn't stalled on your account if it would otherwise have been progressing, but she doesn't have to deal with as much pressure searching for a replacement for your slot would normally cause.

VOTE: Unvote

Spiritually my vote is still here but I would love for you to keep sharing reads.

[Jingle]

Spiritually my vote is still here but I would love for you to keep sharing reads.

Literally all I ask for is the space to build my reads and a town willing to consider them when I'm dead.

Did you get a chance to look through that game I linked for my 'scumtell' yet?

It's not, really. Both Umlaut and Wisdom had you and Hiraki as Pine buddies. They are both dead. The easy answer to this is you and Hiraki are scum. That doesn't make it the right answer, but it's the easy answer and you should be well aware of this if you've read the thread. I believe you've read the thread, just not that you are confused about why people are putting you and Hiraki together.

Except that this is not the argument you made. What you did mention was a progression that lead you to think we were specifically partners.

On a purely gut level, your asking Wisdom about Hiraki reads a tad defensive and disingenuous to me. Wisdom already said he was pretty much following Umlaut on that, so that much should have been clear to you. It read to me as challenging Wisdom, not engaging him to elaborate. I could be wrong there but you are clearly not a minimalist poster so a short "Why Hiraki" doesn't seem likely to be genuinely engaging from you.

A direct request for more information is "Challenging, not engaging him to elaborate"? And this on the basis that I am not a minimalist poster? So what would you expect from me as a request for more information, as opposed to a challenge?

The rest of your post doesn't make sense in context, btw. I asked "What leads you to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" and you responded with "You asking what leads me to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner." This is necessarily false, and therefore cannot be the answer to my question.

Further, it occurs to me you never answered my 1149. What ever came of that analysis?

[MathBlade]

Dunn, what are your reads?

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

Are you implying that you think this is the plan to follow or are you asking for direction here?

Like I said, that's the easiest answer. It aligns with both Umlaut's and Wisdom's thoughts. I have expressed my doubts about those two as scum, and about you and Dunn as town, but since I'm still here and both Umlaut and Wisdom are gone, I'm willing to assume that at least one of my reads here is off, possibly all of them.
--
I am not following either Math or Hiraki here.

So scum!Dunn is distancing from Pine and pushing for Eevee lynch saying both are scum. Dunn knows Pine is going to claim (via encryptor), which is going to allow him to go after Eevee, again. So he can comfortably vote Pine for a bit knowing he's going to get to go back to voting Eevee.
Or, town!Dunn legit believes both Pine and Eevee are scum, and does some digging into that line of thought. After the claims, he has to decide which is scum and chooses Eevee, presumably because Eevee was the stronger scumread from the beginning (which he just said, and reading his ISO checks out)

Either scenario seems plausible to me and I don't see how the encryptor in play changes things.

With an encryptor in play scum has zero reason to tell a buddy
“Partner you need to do <x>” they say it in the daychat.

Hiraki’s argument that scum!Dunnstral would openly say his buddy needs to change votes in the game thread is silly

Pine didn't care even a little about this game. You think he really checked a PT over the thread?

Except by all measures he did.
He is one of the highest in post count
He fake claimed to lure out the doc
And continued posting even after being outed the next day.

These are all indications of caring.
If he was a lurker I would agree with you.

What evidence do you have that he didn’t care?

[MathBlade]

Spiritually my vote is still here but I would love for you to keep sharing reads.

Literally all I ask for is the space to build my reads and a town willing to consider them when I'm dead.

Did you get a chance to look through that game I linked for my 'scumtell' yet?

It's not, really. Both Umlaut and Wisdom had you and Hiraki as Pine buddies. They are both dead. The easy answer to this is you and Hiraki are scum. That doesn't make it the right answer, but it's the easy answer and you should be well aware of this if you've read the thread. I believe you've read the thread, just not that you are confused about why people are putting you and Hiraki together.

Except that this is not the argument you made. What you did mention was a progression that lead you to think we were specifically partners.

On a purely gut level, your asking Wisdom about Hiraki reads a tad defensive and disingenuous to me. Wisdom already said he was pretty much following Umlaut on that, so that much should have been clear to you. It read to me as challenging Wisdom, not engaging him to elaborate. I could be wrong there but you are clearly not a minimalist poster so a short "Why Hiraki" doesn't seem likely to be genuinely engaging from you.

A direct request for more information is "Challenging, not engaging him to elaborate"? And this on the basis that I am not a minimalist poster? So what would you expect from me as a request for more information, as opposed to a challenge?

The rest of your post doesn't make sense in context, btw. I asked "What leads you to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" and you responded with "You asking what leads me to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner." This is necessarily false, and therefore cannot be the answer to my question.

Further, it occurs to me you never answered my 1149. What ever came of that analysis?

The other conversation aside:
What do you make of Hiraki?
And assuming you are town and I am town and Hiraki is scum who is scum with Hiraki and why?
Assuming you are town and Hiraki is town and I am town who is scum and why?

Lastly why shouldn’t I believe you are scum with Hiraki?

If you need more words than the post limit allows post <NEED A POST> and I will provide one.

[Hiraki]

Dunn, what are your reads?

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

Are you implying that you think this is the plan to follow or are you asking for direction here?

Like I said, that's the easiest answer. It aligns with both Umlaut's and Wisdom's thoughts. I have expressed my doubts about those two as scum, and about you and Dunn as town, but since I'm still here and both Umlaut and Wisdom are gone, I'm willing to assume that at least one of my reads here is off, possibly all of them.
--
I am not following either Math or Hiraki here.

So scum!Dunn is distancing from Pine and pushing for Eevee lynch saying both are scum. Dunn knows Pine is going to claim (via encryptor), which is going to allow him to go after Eevee, again. So he can comfortably vote Pine for a bit knowing he's going to get to go back to voting Eevee.
Or, town!Dunn legit believes both Pine and Eevee are scum, and does some digging into that line of thought. After the claims, he has to decide which is scum and chooses Eevee, presumably because Eevee was the stronger scumread from the beginning (which he just said, and reading his ISO checks out)

Either scenario seems plausible to me and I don't see how the encryptor in play changes things.

With an encryptor in play scum has zero reason to tell a buddy
“Partner you need to do <x>” they say it in the daychat.

Hiraki’s argument that scum!Dunnstral would openly say his buddy needs to change votes in the game thread is silly

Pine didn't care even a little about this game. You think he really checked a PT over the thread?

Except by all measures he did.
He is one of the highest in post count
He fake claimed to lure out the doc
And continued posting even after being outed the next day.

These are all indications of caring.
If he was a lurker I would agree with you.

What evidence do you have that he didn’t care?

1) Highest post count doesn't mean anything? Half of his posts are one-liners and prod dodges.

2) Correct, as a goon who didn't care and saw the opportunity. This isn't really a huge chess move.

3) Are you serious? He continued posting? Are you going to act like any of his posts were serious?

4) He prod dodged half of the game. I even called him out several times during the game for not caring about the game, which he responded to none of them.

[LuckyOtter]

It's not, really. Both Umlaut and Wisdom had you and Hiraki as Pine buddies. They are both dead. The easy answer to this is you and Hiraki are scum. That doesn't make it the right answer, but it's the easy answer and you should be well aware of this if you've read the thread. I believe you've read the thread, just not that you are confused about why people are putting you and Hiraki together.

Except that this is not the argument you made. What you did mention was a progression that lead you to think we were specifically partners.

Here is what I said:

Easiest answer here is Jingle+Hiraki. At least one, maybe both. Both were after Wisdom D1 as well, and I felt pretty confident then that scum was pushing that wagon. Right now I'm more confident about Jingleslot than Hiraki, though it occurs to me that Hiraki might be buddying me, and Jingle's apparent confusion over Hiraki as 3rd scum (1152) makes that pairing more likely. Still need convincing it's not Trinity, though.

Note that at no point am I 100% sold on the idea that you're partners. What I'm saying is that I can see a world in which you are. Tell me what is specifically confusing you here.

On a purely gut level, your asking Wisdom about Hiraki reads a tad defensive and disingenuous to me. Wisdom already said he was pretty much following Umlaut on that, so that much should have been clear to you. It read to me as challenging Wisdom, not engaging him to elaborate. I could be wrong there but you are clearly not a minimalist poster so a short "Why Hiraki" doesn't seem likely to be genuinely engaging from you.

A direct request for more information is "Challenging, not engaging him to elaborate"? And this on the basis that I am not a minimalist poster? So what would you expect from me as a request for more information, as opposed to a challenge?

So I just typed up a 385 word answer to this. The TL/DR is that you're asking someone to explain a gut read (kind of silly), this is a really minor point in my thought process, and the person you're asking is a linguist who constantly overanalyzes things like tone in text conversation, so let's all decide if it's really worth me posting this or if it will just be a distraction.

The rest of your post doesn't make sense in context, btw. I asked "What leads you to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" and you responded with "You asking what leads me to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner." This is necessarily false, and therefore cannot be the answer to my question.

1. Misrep/strawman. Please take that "quote" you gave and align it with what I actually said.
2. Also, that's not

exactly

the question you asked me. Here it is for context:

Let's phrase this a different way then.

Why does it make any sense for me to be specifically a likely scumpartner

to someone

on the basis that I was attempting to engage a townread about their suspicion on that player?

Specifically,

what is the logical reason that leads you to the partner conclusion

based on me replacing in and asking someone to talk MORE about why a particular player is scum, especially after I have already expressed that I cannot be allowed to survive into LYLO?

1. With a

very generous

reading, there is a question here of "what leads you the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" These are the bits that I've underlined. I answered that in part by saying I see some defensiveness in your questioning Wisdom on Hiraki. If you want me to go back and check associatives further, fine, I should anyway, but that isn't really what you asked me.

2. Each of those underlined bits is accompanied by a

very defensive

second line of questioning, the bolded bits, which is "why would what I have done make sense if me and Hiraki are partners?" I chose to respond to this, saying that there is a world in which this makes perfect sense.

Further, it occurs to me you never answered my 1149. What ever came of that analysis?

I didn't see a question to respond to but I suppose you might have just wanted a reaction to it. I saw your version of events and didn't find anything particularly convincing one way or another.

You apparently find my analysis suspect because only two votes came after the claim. One of those includes your slot, so yeah, from my POV that gives you a scumpoint. From your POV, that shouldn't seem illogical or even worth me responding to...
Also, Pine might not have cared about pushing a Fuzzy lynch

if he knew he had a scumbuddy who could seal the deal

i.e. your slot, so that is still very plausible.

[Jingle]

The other conversation aside:
What do you make of Hiraki?
And assuming you are town and I am town and Hiraki is scum who is scum with Hiraki and why?
Assuming you are town and Hiraki is town and I am town who is scum and why?

Lastly why shouldn’t I believe you are scum with Hiraki?

If you need more words than the post limit allows post <NEED A POST> and I will provide one.

Acknowledged, but not answered as yet. I'll get to this in a bit, but it's neither a time nor a word amount concern.

It's not, really. Both Umlaut and Wisdom had you and Hiraki as Pine buddies. They are both dead. The easy answer to this is you and Hiraki are scum. That doesn't make it the right answer, but it's the easy answer and you should be well aware of this if you've read the thread. I believe you've read the thread, just not that you are confused about why people are putting you and Hiraki together.

Except that this is not the argument you made. What you did mention was a progression that lead you to think we were specifically partners.

Here is what I said:

Easiest answer here is

Jingle+Hiraki

. At least one, maybe both.

Both

were after Wisdom D1 as well, and I felt pretty confident then that scum was pushing that wagon. Right now I'm more confident about Jingleslot than Hiraki, though it occurs to me that Hiraki might be buddying me, and Jingle's apparent confusion over Hiraki as 3rd scum (1152) makes that

pairing

more likely. Still need convincing it's not Trinity, though.

Note that at no point am I 100% sold on the idea that you're partners. What I'm saying is that I can see a world in which you are. Tell me what is specifically confusing you here.

Your claim to be a linguist IRL actually makes this a bigger deal. Everything about this post is pairing me and Hiraki. Not that Hiraki and I are independently scum with Pine, but that we TOGETHER are scum with Pine. Trinity is independently scum, but no sentence mentioning either me or Hiraki doesn't also mention the other.

On a purely gut level, your asking Wisdom about Hiraki reads a tad defensive and disingenuous to me. Wisdom already said he was pretty much following Umlaut on that, so that much should have been clear to you. It read to me as challenging Wisdom, not engaging him to elaborate. I could be wrong there but you are clearly not a minimalist poster so a short "Why Hiraki" doesn't seem likely to be genuinely engaging from you.

A direct request for more information is "Challenging, not engaging him to elaborate"? And this on the basis that I am not a minimalist poster? So what would you expect from me as a request for more information, as opposed to a challenge?

So I just typed up a

385 word answer

to this. The TL/DR is that you're asking someone to explain a

gut read

(kind of silly), this is a really minor point in my thought process, and the person you're asking is a linguist who constantly overanalyzes things like tone in text conversation, so let's all decide if it's really worth me posting this or if it will just be a distraction.

:thorface:

The rest of your post

doesn't make sense in context, btw. I asked "What leads you to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" and you responded with "You asking what leads me to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner." This is necessarily false, and therefore cannot be the answer to my question.

1. Misrep/strawman. Please take that "quote" you gave and align it with what I actually said.

"You asking what leads me to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner."

Regardless, the more important thing here is that you seem to be implying that it wouldn't make any sense for scum!you to ask Wisdom to elaborate on his scumread of scum!Hiraki. Why not? For one thing, it would make perfect sense if the goal is to distance yourself from Hiraki. I mean, here you are saying "why would I do this to my partner?', so in the event of your lynch, you would hope that we'd say "well he probably wasn't trying to put that much attention on his partner, so it can't be Hiraki."

For another thing, I'd think Wisdom giving a really vague but determined scumread on your partner would be really scary for you as scum. There's no chance to reason with him and he has potential to be very influential on the town, so getting Wisdom to elaborate on his scumread would give both you and Hiraki a chance to refute some points and diffuse suspicion (if not for Wisdom, then for the rest of the town). Whether or not you are present to do so is irrelevant. The fact that you didn't get this from Wisdom, saw that he was consistently giving vague reads over the game and wasn't likely going to be engaging you or Hiraki in any sort of 1v1 that would be beneficial to you or especially Hiraki in endgame makes his NK make perfect sense in this scenario.

2. Also, that's not

exactly

the question you asked me. Here it is for context:

Let's phrase this a different way then.

Why does it make any sense for me to be specifically a likely scumpartner

to someone

on the basis that I was attempting to engage a townread about their suspicion on that player?

Specifically,

what is the logical reason that leads you to the partner conclusion

based on me replacing in and asking someone to talk MORE about why a particular player is scum, especially after I have already expressed that I cannot be allowed to survive into LYLO?

1. With a

very generous

reading, there is a question here of "what leads you the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" These are the bits that I've underlined. I answered that in part by saying I see some defensiveness in your questioning Wisdom on Hiraki. If you want me to go back and check associatives further, fine, I should anyway, but that isn't really what you asked me.

Very generous apparently means contextual, in this case.

2. Each of those underlined bits is accompanied by a

very defensive

second line of questioning, the bolded bits, which is "why would what I have done make sense if me and Hiraki are partners?" I chose to respond to this, saying that there is a world in which this makes perfect sense.

The question was not "why would what I have done make sense if me and Hiraki are partners?" but "why do you think me and Hiraki are partners based on that evidence?"

The important thing is not that there is a world where it makes sense. The important thing is that that is the conclusion you drew. There is a world in which hoofbeats come from a zebra. That still doesn't mean someone who shouts "Zebra!" everytime they hear hoofbeats isn't noteworthy.

Further, it occurs to me you never answered my 1149. What ever came of that analysis?

I didn't see a question to respond to but I suppose you might have just wanted a reaction to it. I saw your version of events and didn't find anything particularly convincing one way or another.

You apparently find my analysis suspect because only two votes came after the claim. One of those includes your slot, so yeah, from my POV that gives you a scumpoint. From your POV, that shouldn't seem illogical or even worth me responding to...
Also, Pine might not have cared about pushing a Fuzzy lynch

if he knew he had a scumbuddy who could seal the deal

i.e. your slot, so that is still very plausible.

The fact is that your analysis does not match the sequence of events in the thread, which I pointed out in that post. I would think that for someone as interested in analysis as you appear to be, that would definitely at least bear a response.

[MathBlade]

I think that your defense of yourself rather than posting any sort of read is rather telling Jingle.

Even if all those points are true, you advocate for what you think is the best play for town as scum.

I am waiting for you to actually post a question or some bit of hunting before I go in depth. I think I understand how you operate as scum and if you are I want to throw you off your game a bit. And if you aren’t the unbiased nature of how I will go about this will surely help you.

@Hiraki
1) Again that proves the point. One liners and prod dodges showed he cared enough to stay in the game. He didn’t want to change the gamestate at those points hence his posts were small.

2)I wasn’t implying it as a huge chess move. What I am implying is that he cared enough to see it through. He didn’t just post it once and forget about it or half ass it. He continually attacked Army. He kept on fighting. That is someone who cares whether his team wins or not.

3) Again the seriousness of the posts is irrelevant. What matters is that he kept posting. He could have just shut up. He was outed scum. That means either he was told to do it in scum chat again or cared enough to post it on his own. The tone of them is irrelevant.

4) So? Again. Him not responding to your probe if you’re town makes him scum which has been proven. However there are hall markers of him caring all over.

I do not think there is anyway Dunnstral is scum with Pine. I’d only reevaluate if Jingle flips green.

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, what are your reads?

I guess I can see jingle as mafia. Hiraki looks bad with his push on me this page (I think it's a little hard to believe what he's saying)

[Dunnstral]

2) Correct, as a goon who didn't care and saw the opportunity. This isn't really a huge chess move.

But apparently he couldn't read the mafia chat and his scum partner was guiding him in the main thread?

[LuckyOtter]

Going to agree that Jingle is just trying to stall by quibbling with me. He's yet to actually come up with any sort of case against me, or anyone else for that matter. Not going to engage with Jingle until he provides some reads since our 1v1 is clearly going to go in circles based on his last response.

Also,

@Mastina, can we get a prod of Lycanfire?

He's not posted at all D4 yet.

[Dunnstral]

Oh, add Lycanfire to my scumreads. My experience is that he has a lot to say as town.

[Jingle]

Going to agree that Jingle is just trying to stall by quibbling with me. He's yet to actually come up with any sort of case against me, or anyone else for that matter. Not going to engage with Jingle until he provides some reads since our 1v1 is clearly going to go in circles based on his last response.

Also,

@Mastina, can we get a prod of Lycanfire?

He's not posted at all D4 yet.

I'm satisfied.

L'Otter is scum, Hiraki is the likely partner.

First, L'Otter's analysis is very surface level for someone who is supposedly a linguist. Second, the complete lack of reevaluation when confronted with evidence that his read on the gamestate suggests he's not fitting reads to analysis but analysis to reads. Third, his analysis of the game itself is complete garbage, which suggests he's doing it not to critically think through what has actually happened, but rather to look like he's critically thinking. Fourth, his post today about lynching me, Hiraki, and Trinity suggests he doesn't think the game will be over after lynching both me and Hiraki, meaning exactly one scum in those two. The awkward linking of me and Hiraki means that when I flip green, he has every opportunity to back down from the Hiraki lynch and switch to whatever lynch gets the most support. Finally, as he begins realizing that my posts are not about defending myself but rather digging for his alignment, he's suddenly not interested in talking to me anymore.

If anyone wants clarification or elaboration, speak up.

Otherwise, I intend to selfvote as soon as Trinity is back. Not before, because if the game is going to sit in limbo waiting on them or a replacement it should happen while we can actually still talk, not during a nightphase.