Mini Theme 2022: Trapped! [Gameover]

[northsidegal]

a) Why does scum in Pine or Mylo or ofrhz's spot write a weak explanation when a long one is easy and seen as more pro-town?

i'm going to answer this just because i saw it when reading enigma's post i think and i feel like i have something to say here despite this post being like 3 pages ago

why would i as scum lurk or post very little or post unsubstantiated things when i know that people are more likely to townread me making big posts with huge explanations? well, for me it comes down to ability and motivation. i

know

personally how i

could

theoretically get townread as scum, but having the ability to do it and the motivation to do it are two entirely separate things. i think the exact same thing could apply when it comes to scum making their vote explanation.

[Enigma]

I agree he's in a dangerous spot for town if he's scum

also this might be true

but let me just tell you that I'm in a dangerous spot for scum because I'm town

@NSG and @Irrelephant, what do you guys think of Enigma? attacking Chickadee here is what I would expect scum in his position to do if he doesn't want to go after more active/difficult mislynch targets. He's a scumread I feel better about as I reread his ISO. and NSG if you're on the scum!ofrhz train then I see an associative there as Enigma has never commented on ofrhz and ofrhz has responded to a few of Enigma's NAI posts (D1 is boring, plan for the challenge) and then gave him a casual townread in 414.

Why just NSG and Irrelephant?
So you think Chickadee is a mislynch? Why would you so confidently think that, then make the deduction that I'm scum based on that?
Isn't active and difficult mislynch target contradictory (i.e. everyone is one and/or the other...)?

[GuiltyLion]

a) Why does scum in Pine or Mylo or ofrhz's spot write a weak explanation when a long one is easy and seen as more pro-town?
b) who are you trying to warn us to be cautious about with the last sentence?
c) what makes you say their explanations were uncommitted? Isn't the vote a commitment?

a)
Probs because they are lazy. I'm saying it is possible to write a long explanation and be town associated from that, though this takes time.
b)
Pretty obv is this in reference to NSG and the quick jump to town reads from some players (you and elephant). I suppose I dislike dishing out town reads so readily, and also view those who do so carefully.
c)
No the vote isn't really a commitment, it is a sheep on the general town consensus and no other viable alternative. And for scum, knowing it is a mislynch, easy to jump on

hold up, so people who write weak/short explanations could be lazy scum, but people who write long and pro-town explanations also shouldn't be townread? Aren't you basically saying that nothing in a vote explanation should be townread if you hold both Pine/Mylo's votes as scummy but also say NSG shouldn't be seen as town? Which vote explanations did you townread, or who do you townread at the moment?

Like is this just commentary for the sake of commentary? What's the direction you're going with here?

+1
IMO trying to be heavily town read, especially when there are no TPRs to be protecting, is not something that townies need to be do.

where am I trying to be heavily town read? This is something that I disagreed with Pine about but didn't bother to bring up, but I'll hash it out with you. I don't think I'm trying to be "Mayor", I personally am just trying to

do shit

and pressure people I think deserve pressuring. I'm totally happy for others to also take charge and bring other viewpoints to the table. So in which posts of mine do you see my trying to be town read?

[GuiltyLion]

Why just NSG and Irrelephant?
So you think Chickadee is a mislynch? Why would you so confidently think that, then make the deduction that I'm scum based on that?
Isn't active and difficult mislynch target contradictory (i.e. everyone is one and/or the other...)?

because they're actively posting townreads who were both around at that time and I feel we're trying to work together today. I trust their opinions more than most players in the game at the moment.

I think Chickadee could be a mislynch, but I also still think she could be scum - I'm trying to see both angles of the gamestate here in scum!Chickadee and town!Chickadee world. It should be pretty clear from my posting both D1 and D2 that I don't "confidently" think she's a mislynch, though I think currently with a gun to my head I would say she's town.

Don't follow the third question - people who post a lot and show a willingness to argue and throw down generally tend to be harder to lynch and so they are harder mislynch targets if they are town.

[Enigma]

a) Why does scum in Pine or Mylo or ofrhz's spot write a weak explanation when a long one is easy and seen as more pro-town?

i'm going to answer this just because i saw it when reading enigma's post i think and i feel like i have something to say here despite this post being like 3 pages ago

why would i as scum lurk or post very little or post unsubstantiated things when i know that people are more likely to townread me making big posts with huge explanations? well, for me it comes down to ability and motivation. i

know

personally how i

could

theoretically get townread as scum, but having the ability to do it and the motivation to do it are two entirely separate things. i think the exact same thing could apply when it comes to scum making their vote explanation.

I'm saying that game motivation should not be indicative of town/scum, but rather indicative of how engaged a player is with the game. You can be engaged as scum or town.

[Enigma]

Would love to hang around and chat, but catching a plane at stupid oclock and need sleep ... hasta luego

[GuiltyLion]

why would i as scum lurk or post very little or post unsubstantiated things when i know that people are more likely to townread me making big posts with huge explanations? well, for me it comes down to ability and motivation. i know personally how i could theoretically get townread as scum, but having the ability to do it and the motivation to do it are two entirely separate things. i think the exact same thing could apply when it comes to scum making their vote explanation.

I agree with this. I think what I was trying to get at was how Enigma was saying Pine/Mylo's votes "rubbed him the wrong way", for being weak. But then in the next sentence he says we should be cautious with how we tend to naturally associate lengthy and in-depth explanations as pro-town. It feels like he's casting as wide a net as possible on being skeptical about townie-looking votes - "scum might be lazy and write a weak explanation, but also don't townread people who didn't do that." So ultimately I guess I want to figure out why he thinks Pine/Mylo specifically are scummy since they were called out in his post.

His last 1029 post might be more indicative of what he was ultimately trying to say - "effort is not indicative of alignment", basically. To be fair to Enigma that's a good point and one I should probably reconsider before making a hard townbloc to PoE. but then I guess I don't like how that's the main thing he's chosen to riff on, rather than specific engagement about his current reads

[GuiltyLion]

I think the ofrhz push on Prof Fridays is worth discussion from everyone, both in terms of read on Prof Fridays and thoughts on ofhrz's case.

ofhrz's points are valid, but I'm not sure that I actually feel like Prof Fridays is scummy. The way he's reversed a few of his reads and candidly replied to pushes on him (992, 1006) feels vaguely town to me - not strong enough to be particularly confident in calling him town but it gives me some doubts about a scumread.

While he did dodge the original question about why Pine's case was convincing, I'm not really convinced that there was an agenda to it. and ofrhz can you explain why 1001 being a 'weird' post makes it more likely to be scum?

[Enigma]

Why just NSG and Irrelephant?
So you think Chickadee is a mislynch? Why would you so confidently think that, then make the deduction that I'm scum based on that?
Isn't active and difficult mislynch target contradictory (i.e. everyone is one and/or the other...)?

because they're actively posting townreads who were both around at that time and I feel we're trying to work together today. I trust their opinions more than most players in the game at the moment.

I think Chickadee could be a mislynch, but I also still think she could be scum - I'm trying to see both angles of the gamestate here in scum!Chickadee and town!Chickadee world. It should be pretty clear from my posting both D1 and D2 that I don't "confidently" think she's a mislynch, though I think currently with a gun to my head I would say she's town.

Don't follow the third question - people who post a lot and show a willingness to argue and throw down generally tend to be harder to lynch and so they are harder mislynch targets if they are town.

nvm on point three - I thought you meant active being one of those currently in consideration as a lynch target.

[GuiltyLion]

also here's my current updated thoughts

ultimately I don't think NSG making a townread on Mylo being similar to her past scum!townread on scum-partner-ofrhz is strongly indicative - it's a good thing to note and consider if we get late in the game and probability of scum!NSG is much higher, but I think it's more likely NSG makes a meta townread like that as either alignment, is town here, and simply managed to effectively emulate something she'd do as town in that scumgame. However, I also think Feysal coming in with this angle is good evidence for him being town as well.

I still think ofrhz is a good candidate for scum

I think one of Chickadee/Enigma is likely to be scum. Chickadee still isn't really engaging with much and her turnaround on Prof Fridays based off of solely ofrhz's post is a bit weird. Enigma I have a hard time ruling out as scum but also have a hard time ruling him out as town. I think more discussion and reads from him would help me a lot here.

Third scum is a bit of a mystery, could be someone deep wolfing. I think I'm actually starting to get a liiiiitle bit paranoid of Irrelephant but I don't think that's paranoia worth indulging in until we get some more flips and day phases in. If Chick is town, maybe Prof Fridays, but the push on PF from ofrhz is worth looking further into if we get a ofhrz scumflip.

[GuiltyLion]

While he did dodge the original question about why Pine's case was convincing, I'm not really convinced that there was an agenda to it

actually I guess I should think harder about this

because it is fairly scummy to be asked why you're scumreading a player and to switch your response with an answer about why

lynching

that player is good for the gamestate. There's less cognitive dissonance in arguing about the pro-town utility of a mislynch as there is cognitive dissonance when arguing for why someone is scum.

but the fact that he acknowledged that he didn't answer the question in 992 just feels a little bravely candid for scum. I want to say scum would make a token effort to name parts that they found persuasive, even just a throwaway line or two wouldn't be that hard.

[Irrelephant11]

I think I'm actually starting to get a liiiiitle bit paranoid of Irrelephant

ditto

So I started reading things here then got too busy to consolidate thoughts. I'll be around more tomorrow
Really wish the challenges provided more that was AI. Sigh.

[Kokichi Oma]

Also, this post is weird considering you have Kokichi in your lynchpool.

VOTE: Prof Fridays

Ohhh good point

[Kokichi Oma]

I'm actually fine with Prof. We should decide on a lynch before we do numbers

[Feysal]

If you're concerned about me or Myloninja being scum, look at the meta for yourself; I think that

I'm

an easy sort based on the differences between my town and scum game, but compared to me I think Mylo is a far easier sort.

I already looked at Myloninja and agreed with your read. I also agree he probably is easier to sort, based on your own posts and what GuiltyLion said in his last will. It was only because of that post I found that I began to doubt myself.

I may look at your meta later, or WhyMafia whom you replaced, but I think my time is better used elsewhere right now. Note that I was not trying to read you before, I was trying to read Ofrhz, and since you have been prominently pushing him today and I noticed you had been in multiple games together, I wanted to see if you had any insight into his play and what your track record reading him was.

How likely do you think Ofrhz is to be scum? I liked his reply to my last post. If he were scum, I rather think he would welcome me questioning your town status.

Huh? You've never seen scum GL try to be a town leader? Can you expand on that?

My look at GuiltyLion's meta was of the quick and dirty variety. I only skimmed a couple of his scum games for anything overt, doing any more was not and is not high on my priority list. I have no reason to believe he is anything other than an active town player, and frankly I expect he will be night killed for it sooner rather than later. I could look at him more closely, but I see little reason for it unless he keeps surviving night after night.

[Feysal]

I'm saying that game motivation should not be indicative of town/scum, but rather indicative of how engaged a player is with the game. You can be engaged as scum or town.

This I have to disagree on. I suppose some people can feel motivated to play scum or any alignment, but I believe most players prefer being town. That certainly is the case with me. As town I am motivated by the mystery, to read other players and solve the game, while as scum all I have is loyalty to my team and the duty to provide the town with the best challenge I can. There is simply no contest between the two.

I think the Ofrhz push on Prof Fridays is worth discussion from everyone, both in terms of read on Prof Fridays and thoughts on Ofrhz's case.

I did not think much of Prof Fridays dodging the question of what was persuasive about Pine's case, but now that I do I think it is the better part of Ofrhz's case. It was not necessary to explain the benefits of a scum lynch when the question was why he thought it would be a scum lynch, and in fact it is worse than no answer at all.

The other part of agreeing on Ofrhz when another player from his lynchpool also does is not that compelling. Prof Fridays described it as a lynchpool, not as actual suspects, and there were too many for them all to be scum anyway.

For my part, the way Prof Fridays dropped his scum read on Myloninja just because Northsidegal said he was town did ping me as suspicious, especially since he had voted Myloninja the first night. I admit I felt the impulse to simply take her word for it myself, but ultimately I needed to look a little deeper.

I was also not impressed with the lynchpool, and not just because I was on it. Between Kokichi, GuiltyLion, Ofrhz and myself, I doubted whether there would be any scum.

VOTE: Prof Fridays

I have not yet tried to meta read him, but for now this is where my vote goes.

Unofficial vote count:
Ofrhz (3): Northsidegal, GuiltyLion, Irrelephant
Prof Fridays (2): Ofrhz, Feysal

[northsidegal]

I may look at your meta later, or WhyMafia whom you replaced, but I think my time is better used elsewhere right now. Note that I was not trying to read you before, I was trying to read Ofrhz, and since you have been prominently pushing him today and I noticed you had been in multiple games together, I wanted to see if you had any insight into his play and what your track record reading him was.

i mildly scumread her early on in open 726 before i changed my mind. that's the only one that comes to mind readily, although i'm pretty sure there are other examples (probably from other open games)

How likely do you think Ofrhz is to be scum? I liked his reply to my last post. If he were scum, I rather think he would welcome me questioning your town status.

more than anyone else and enough that if the day were to end right now i would feel fine voting there.

i'm not sure if i can be justified in saying this based on the games me and ofrhz have played together or if perhaps this is me overestimating how obviously town i am to other people, but if ofrhz scumread me here i would take it as an even greater point of suspicion. i don't think that's a reason to townread ofrhz unless it was likely that what you said would change people's minds. if you want me to elaborate on that point i can because it might be confusing (it's somewhat confusing to think about) and i tried to think of the best way to word it and i couldn't.

[Enigma]

also here's my current updated thoughts

ultimately I don't think NSG making a townread on Mylo being similar to her past scum!townread on scum-partner-ofrhz is strongly indicative - it's a good thing to note and consider if we get late in the game and probability of scum!NSG is much higher, but I think it's more likely NSG makes a meta townread like that as either alignment, is town here, and simply managed to effectively emulate something she'd do as town in that scumgame. However, I also think Feysal coming in with this angle is good evidence for him being town as well.

I still think ofrhz is a good candidate for scum

I think one of Chickadee/Enigma is likely to be scum. Chickadee still isn't really engaging with much and her turnaround on Prof Fridays based off of solely ofrhz's post is a bit weird. Enigma I have a hard time ruling out as scum but also have a hard time ruling him out as town. I think more discussion and reads from him would help me a lot here.

Third scum is a bit of a mystery, could be someone deep wolfing. I think I'm actually starting to get a liiiiitle bit paranoid of Irrelephant but I don't think that's paranoia worth indulging in until we get some more flips and day phases in. If Chick is town, maybe Prof Fridays, but the push on PF from ofrhz is worth looking further into if we get a ofhrz scumflip.

Why is it an chickadee or myself? I've had limited interactions with her, apart from a small push on her reluctance to scum hunting or game-solve (which I was not the only one to do).
Why does one rule out/confirm the other?

[Enigma]

Why just NSG and Irrelephant?
So you think Chickadee is a mislynch? Why would you so confidently think that, then make the deduction that I'm scum based on that?
Isn't active and difficult mislynch target contradictory (i.e. everyone is one and/or the other...)?

because they're actively posting townreads who were both around at that time and I feel we're trying to work together today. I trust their opinions more than most players in the game at the moment.

I think Chickadee could be a mislynch, but I also still think she could be scum - I'm trying to see both angles of the gamestate here in scum!Chickadee and town!Chickadee world. It should be pretty clear from my posting both D1 and D2 that I don't "confidently" think she's a mislynch, though I think currently with a gun to my head I would say she's town.

Don't follow the third question - people who post a lot and show a willingness to argue and throw down generally tend to be harder to lynch and so they are harder mislynch targets if they are town.

I think one of Chickadee/Enigma is likely to be scum. Chickadee still isn't really engaging with much and her turnaround on Prof Fridays based off of solely ofrhz's post is a bit weird. Enigma I have a hard time ruling out as scum but also have a hard time ruling him out as town. I think more discussion and reads from him would help me a lot here.

Your chickadee read has evolved quite a bit from .... in just 6 posts. First post reads as a maybe maybe/null, more likely to be town lean, and then just 6 posts later you sound much more suspect of her as a likely scum ...
that's one quick reversal

[Chickadee]

I think one of Chickadee/Enigma is likely to be scum. Chickadee still isn't really engaging with much and her turnaround on Prof Fridays based off of solely ofrhz's post is a bit weird. Enigma I have a hard time ruling out as scum but also have a hard time ruling him out as town. I think more discussion and reads from him would help me a lot here.

Actually what I said was that it was compelling enough for me to look back over that slot...which I have not done yet. I have several 11 hour works days ahead of me. I'll try to get to it tomorrow.



Can we pick a first number already? I'd really like to have time to asses, and not just pick numbers back to back. If no one is opposed, I would say Irrelephant can pick the first number. As I said before, I think he's the most widely town read slot. Going with a town read is the only way we have of trying to beat this challenge.

[Myloninja13]

So because enough people townread me, does that mean I get to pick a number?

[Kokichi Oma]

I don't care who picks the number

[ofrhz]

I think the ofrhz push on Prof Fridays is worth discussion from everyone, both in terms of read on Prof Fridays and thoughts on ofhrz's case.

ofhrz's points are valid, but I'm not sure that I actually feel like Prof Fridays is scummy. The way he's reversed a few of his reads and candidly replied to pushes on him (992, 1006) feels vaguely town to me - not strong enough to be particularly confident in calling him town but it gives me some doubts about a scumread.

While he did dodge the original question about why Pine's case was convincing, I'm not really convinced that there was an agenda to it

.

and ofrhz can you explain why 1001 being a 'weird' post makes it more likely to be scum?

1) I didn't see Pine's case as convincing, and the point that may possibly have merit was his "mayor" point (and even then, I don't buy it without comparing your town meta to your scum meta). So when Friday offered up Pine's case as a reason to put you in his lynchpool, the trajectory looked fake. That made him dodging the question suspicious, because the first thing that occurred to me was that Friday threw out a reason to cast light shade on you and then didn't have the reasoning to back it up.

2) I think it's weird to quote a scumread and agree with them without further commentary. It makes his scumread on Kokichi more likely to be fake. On some sort of instinctual level, I think town would be more suspicious of their scumreads posts, even if they happened to come to the same conclusion as one of their scumreads. Although thinking about this more, this is not a particularly strong point because there are other explanations for why Friday might have quoted that.

[ofrhz]

NSG, thoughts on Friday?

[Chickadee]

These are two very different reactions to potentially picking a number...

so Feysal's analysis weakens my townread on nsg, but I agree with ofrhz it doesn't necessarily make mylo scum.

I still think we should pick someone soon, like halfway through our self-set time limit (which I like btw) to pick the first number. That way we have time to assess, and it's not just immediately the end of the day. My first nom would go to irrelephant11, for being so widely town read. Thoughts?

I don't necessarily love the idea of it being me, though if we're trying to pick town I guess I know I'm town
I do think it might be a good idea to have the first guess be halfway through the day, so we can decide if the same player should guess or not

I agree Prof Fridays didn't really answer my question.

@Mylo please provide some scumreads

So because enough people townread me, does that mean I get to pick a number?

Mylo, why so eager?