Mini Normal 2024 - Endgame

[panthaleon]

Hi friends. I don't think that my initial post went out before I went to brunch for this morning. Sorry!

I've been ISOing my slot and the dead players get a general idea of what is going on. My initial take is severe suspicion of BlueBloodedToffee, especially with the recent DrDoolittle wagon. I am a fan of Post 1139, which feels genuine and gives good vibes. I am still going through things, but can get more details out going forward.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[panthaleon]

So to start with I agree with whomever it was that said there was at least one mafio on the wagon to lynch Kop. While he was sketchy and weird with his posting, I think there's no way the wagon is entirely clean. That leaves:

Ejjinami
BlueBloodedToffee
Mumble

Tchill13

Now Krazy
Creature

Rei

Me!

Irrelephant

Dead

Ejjinami - Since Kop appeared as a lurker-based wagon at least to start with, I like a townie starting the wagon. I am also a big fan of Post 337 since it is an extremely similar vibe I have been having about Nauci. I also like Post 394 for the Nauci wagon not being completely genuine, but I'll get to that later. Overall I like leaning town for Ejj.

Mumble - Mumble is...fine? Like, some of our reads line up, which isn't 100% reassuring, but is at least a place to start with the null-leaning-town.

Tchill slot - My slot was a big fan of Tchill at the start, which I don't exactly understand, but I am willing to humor the perspective. I do like Krazy from the start, though. The vote on the Kop wagon seems fine enough, since I cannot fault how sketchy he seemed to get there at the end.

Creature - Eh. I read through this ISO twice over and it just kinda washed over me. I feel like I need to postpone a read here, since I can honestly go either way.

BlueBloodedToffee - Mentioned that this feel kinda like the scum on the wagon. Wild guess he was also the scum on Nauci's wagon.

@BBT

- I didn't, like, love the response in 1142. Like, I definitely intellectually understand what you said, but I am low-key concerned that you were a little too concerned with specific words used. Also it kinda feels too quick to rationalize the Kop vote. That said, I am not permanently locked in on you being a mafio and I am prepared to have been completely wrong about my initial read. I can't get behind a DDL wagon at this point, though. Who do you think the scum on Kop's wagon was? Or do you think it was a totally genuine day one wagon?

[panthaleon]

Oh my goodness there are so many people still around.

1)

Creature

- null
2)

BlueBloodedToffee

- lean scum
3)

HeWhoSwims

- null
4)

Alchemist21

- null
5)

Nauci

- lean scum
6)

ejjinami

- lean town
7)

Toranaga

- null
8)

Scioness Sajj

- null
9)

Krazy

- lean town
10)

DrDolittle

- lean town

[panthaleon]

Oh hey HeWhoSwims is Mumble. That makes that convenient.

BBT I don't like your positioning on the Kop or Nauci wagons, and I don't like the case you're pushing on DrDoolittle, like I mentioned.

Also I thought I mentioned that I felt Nauci was scummy.

I don't love this:

Everyone who started this game and doesn’t get replaced is getting a T-shirt at the end.

I promise not to replace out

I've only been replaced out once (...>_> <_< I was scum and I like being scum about as much as NSG does oops)

I also see a lot of her talking, but not a lot of content behind it. Mentioning how many old games also feels a bit unnecessary. It seems more like a way to look productive without having to commit to actual opinions in this game.

[panthaleon]

BBT I don't think there's anything that you can say that will make the votes on Kop or Nauci less suspicious to me. Frankly your pushes to try to get me to pin things down for you to argue does not seem to be coming from a pro town mindset. It's similar to your response to DDL. It feels like you are really, really focused on trying to win this argument.

I asked you who you believed was the scum on Kop's wagon day one, and you still have not addressed that. Why?

[panthaleon]

BBT, like I said before, I believe there is scum on the Kop wagon. That means that I have narrowed my pool of interest to there. Of those five remaining people, you have the most suspicious body of activity, which is the reason that I am pushing you. I can say that you are not really handling that tiny pressure well and you have ignored two opportunities I have given to quit tunneling and trying to dig into a pointless fight.

I will repeat: if you are not the scum on the Kop wagon, then who is? If you can't answer that, I might as well keep my vote parked here until you do.

--

Toranga is also a good vote too, but I vastly prefer pushing BBT. Particularly I take issue with the lack of any voting that Krazy mentioned, as well as this vote:

I still think scum!BBT doesn't make that kill.

I don't have any context to know better but I'm already assuming this is a deep enough read that scum!creature almost never makes

Looks to me like too much like trying to find an excuse to 'lock' a player as town.

[panthaleon]

That's a pretty good question, Scioness. I read it more as looking for an opportunity to have someone's reads to fall back on, as well as to artificially reduce the pool of players to actually investigate or scumhunt through. Honestly I was planning to mention the weird lack of voting, but Krazy took the though right out of my head last night. I think it's worth Toranga explaining how they have time to make silly joke posts about pizza or a flat earth, but no time to put their vote to use gathering information.

[panthaleon]

I would low-key like to lynch you principle with that talk, BBT, but I am still more than happy to engage with you. What are your reads on everyone other than DrDoolittle? Do you agree with the assessment that there was scum on Kop's wagon? If not, why? If you are town, please engage here. We still have a week here.

[panthaleon]

BBT if you want to make the optimal play and are set on dying today, at the very least you should claim to give town more information. Why are you so dead set on keeping information as limited and obfuscated as possible?

[panthaleon]

What an absolutely wretched player.

[panthaleon]

I asked for input on a variety of things and you were too hung up on trying to drag town into arguments about semantics and fighting over whether you actually looked that suspicious. Before you flip, it would be helpful if you could at least give a full reads list or something to help the town that you are so insistent is doomed without you.

[panthaleon]

Hey Toranaga why didn't you vote for DrDoolittle after this

IDK anything and I'm just suggesting but that drdolittle ISO is an absolute garbage fire and deserves death

[panthaleon]

Nice shot, Krazy.

I'm a little disappointed that BBT turned out to be town since I was more than willing to engage, but c'est la vie. I want to

VOTE: Nauci

Since they are next on my scum list. I am a little concerned that my gut reaction was wrong and there might not have been scum in Kop's Day 1 wagon. That is absurd, though, right? There has to be?

[panthaleon]

I think a 4-player scum team with a Vigilante would be a bit much in a normal game.

9/4 mislynch day one plus two town kills

6/4 - day 2 MyLo seems really bad

[panthaleon]

So some interesting tidbits out of Toronaga's posts

I still think scum!BBT doesn't make that kill.

I don't have any context to know better but I'm already assuming this is a deep enough read that scum!creature almost never makes

First action in the game is hard buddying up to Creature. I don't really know if this is done to implicate him or if this is indicative of the two of them being related.

Also interesting is this:

IDK anything and I'm just suggesting but that drdolittle ISO is an absolute garbage fire and deserves death

Fanning the flames of the DoctorDolittle wagon without committing a vote. This feels to me a good sign of town DDL with the plan eventually being to flip on BBT for tunneling and pushing a wagon so hard.

Additionally Krazy was starting to point some suspicion on Toranaga before the fiasco with BBT and self hammering went down, so it could just be that they wanted to nip that before it could be developed.

Updated reads list:

Ejjinami

- claim seems valid and I was townreading before

Scioness

- if Ejj is telling the truth, then I feel like a normal game probably wouldn't have a mafia without a gun

DDL

- leftover from yesterday, but I still like DDL as town

Alchemist

- same tho

HWS

- I don't even know anymore

Creature

- we still have two mafios to go and I find the Toranaga connections interesting

Nauci

- same feels as yesterday

[panthaleon]

Actually for bonus fun if Creature is actually scum, my initial analysis of the Kop wagon still kinda holds

[panthaleon]

I dig. This is better than my weak gut feels around Nauci.

UNVOTE: Nauci

VOTE: Creature

[panthaleon]

Ejj maybe you checked Nauci or DDL? Those look to be players you were at least somewhat suspicious of

[panthaleon]

Relevantly I think we should be careful about putting anyone at L-1 until Ejj has a chance to share the results. Last twilight was long, but I don't think it's worth risking a quick hammer/self hammer and having Ejj get killed in the night

Also Ejj out of curiosity what is the specific result you got on Scioness? Was it, like, 'No Result' or a genuine 'This player does not have a gun'?

[panthaleon]

Creature you do realize the quote where I mentioned the four player scum team was me responding to another player and explaining it was extremely unlikely, right?

[panthaleon]

Hey creature why is Nauci scum now?

[panthaleon]

Ejj just to verify you are saying that you got 'Does not have a gun' for Scioness. It's pedantry and I understand that, but it is super helpful information for ~reasons~

I also like that Creature has me listed as scum via PoE over HWS and DDL, even though I was listed as a town read yesterday. What happened to your DDL suspicions, friend?

[panthaleon]

So for everyone playing at home, before on Day 2 Creature had me listed a town read. Relevantly this is the same post where Toranaga was listed as town and now-scum Nauci is listed as town.

Tchill's replacer is town
Toranaga too
Nauci probtown
ejjinami a little lower but still town
panthaleon's my newest townread

(it's not in order)

Then I vote Creature and suddenly it is time to throw shade. This is both mild mildly:

I'm a little disappointed that BBT turned out to be town

lol you

And also through a full weird misquote that was somehow both meant to be Scioness, but also cropped of context:

I think a 4-player scum team

He is also happy to sheep my read:

Hey creature why is Nauci scum now?

I'm tempted to sheep your feelings

also PoE

ALSO

rei's ISO is scummy

Toranaga's ISO feels worthless.

If Toranga's ISO is pointless, then what is the point of quoting it?

PEdit:

Thank you Ejj! That's what I needed to hear.

[panthaleon]

Hey Scioness I know you're boring me and think I'm scum and stuff, but can you tell what you think of Creature today. All these posts seem super sketch.

Also I'd like to point out that Toranga spent a LOT of time in twilight throwing suspicion my way and likely did not expect to die overnight. Like it's not exonerating, but wouldn't that be a weird amount of bussing to strike up out of nowhere?

[panthaleon]

I just realized autocorrect made me look like an ass. I mean that you are voting be Scioness, not boring.

[panthaleon]

Toranaga made 4 rapid succession posts against me after twilight began and I acknowledged Krazy was correct about his suspicious behavior:

BBT, like I said before, I believe there is scum on the Kop wagon. That means that I have narrowed my pool of interest to there. Of those five remaining people, you have the most suspicious body of activity, which is the reason that I am pushing you. I can say that you are not really handling that tiny pressure well and you have ignored two opportunities I have given to quit tunneling and trying to dig into a pointless fight.

I will repeat: if you are not the scum on the Kop wagon, then who is? If you can't answer that, I might as well keep my vote parked here until you do.

--

Toranga is also a good vote too, but I vastly prefer pushing BBT. Particularly I take issue with the lack of any voting that Krazy mentioned, as well as this vote:

I still think scum!BBT doesn't make that kill.

I don't have any context to know better but I'm already assuming this is a deep enough read that scum!creature almost never makes

Looks to me like too much like trying to find an excuse to 'lock' a player as town.

you vastly prefer "pushing" BBT? what's the problem with not voting? you understand I just replaced in yes?

what's your read on dr doolittle?

Hey Toranaga why didn't you vote for DrDoolittle after this

IDK anything and I'm just suggesting but that drdolittle ISO is an absolute garbage fire and deserves death

nice crosspost

I'm not voting anyone until I have a good handle of the game. why do you consider it scummy?

That's a pretty good question, Scioness. I read it more as looking for an opportunity to have someone's reads to fall back on, as well as to artificially reduce the pool of players to actually investigate or scumhunt through. Honestly I was planning to mention the weird lack of voting, but Krazy took the though right out of my head last night. I think it's worth Toranga explaining how they have time to make silly joke posts about pizza or a flat earth, but no time to put their vote to use gathering information.

voting "for information" on d2 isn't something I do.

What an absolutely wretched player.

you were voting him, right? and you were around when he said he'd self hammer. why didn't you unvote? you're just posting rn like you're sure that's a town slot. what did BBT do outside of self hammer that was "wretched"? his posting seems fine.

I also have no idea why you think I'm scum, but you seem weirdly confident about it.

[panthaleon]

Scioness I have no idea what you are talking about. All four of those posts are from Toranaga and addressed to me. How are they not designed to throw suspicion on me and the way I am playing. As for Krazy, of course he didn't say anything after those posts. The day was over and he already put his vote out there. He didn't need to do anything else.

[panthaleon]

Ejj before we snap lynch HWS, I would like to put forth the suggestion of a mass claim now. If the remaining team is indeed HWS and Alchemist/DDL, then my role leaves me with some questions that I would like answered before I completely clear Creature. If we are locking things in at this point, a mass claim should be pure upside for the town.

[panthaleon]

For defs. I just would like Creature to claim first. Scioness claiming would also be helpful, hence why I suggested a full claim.

PEdit: That could be valid too if they're really concerned. I think jamming as many confirmed town players might just be straight up better, but I can't fault a doctor hiding. Role blockers/Jailkeepers should probably claim though 'cause that's #relevant

[panthaleon]

I can get behind that

[panthaleon]

Thank you Creature.

I am a Town Informed Neighborizor. The information that I was given is that Krazy's slot was a non-vanilla town-aligned role, which is why Rei neighborized him. The crumb was here:

I'm getting town vibes from tchill, his posts radiate genuine townie aura

twain is also a veeery slight town read
BBT I still think that post at the beginning was kinda townie tbh. I'll try to get a better read on him but for now its a town gut read.
For ejjinami, I remember the newbie we played together he was very active, like he died n1 and still had most posts by the end of the game. So far I don't see much difference tone wise, but if he is scum I'm not expecting a huge change from his town game. For now he seems like his townie self but I feel like he could fake his effort as scum, so I think I'll get a better read on it as we progress. (Oh and ejji I don't crack under pressure as scum )
UNVOTE: ejjinami

I think I'd like to pressure this wagon more
VOTE: Dr.Dolittle

Which I doubled down here:

[sic]

Mumble - Mumble is...fine? Like, some of our reads line up, which isn't 100% reassuring, but is at least a place to start with the null-leaning-town.

Tchill slot -

My slot was a big fan of Tchill at the start, which I don't exactly understand, but I am willing to humor the perspective.

I do like Krazy from the start, though. The vote on the Kop wagon seems fine enough, since I cannot fault how sketchy he seemed to get there at the end.

Creature - Eh. I read through this ISO twice over and it just kinda washed over me. I feel like I need to postpone a read here, since I can honestly go either way.

[sic]

I mentioned the Toranaga lack of vote to Krazy during Day 2, which is why he made that vote. He also mentioned to me in the Neighborhood that he was going to target Toranaga, which is why I mentioned nice shot in my opening post today:

Nice shot, Krazy.

I'm a little disappointed that BBT turned out to be town since I was more than willing to engage, but c'est la vie. I want to

VOTE: Nauci

Since they are next on my scum list. I am a little concerned that my gut reaction was wrong and there might not have been scum in Kop's Day 1 wagon. That is absurd, though, right? There has to be?

Night 2 attempted to Neighborize Creature, but failed to do so. That's why I was looking to get a claim. I'll be voting HWS, but I still do not want to make it any easier for a self hammer to shut down discussion until we finish the full claim.

[panthaleon]

UNVOTE: Creature

[panthaleon]

Yes I need Scioness to claim too. We're claiming because theoretically the game is won and more information is always better.

[panthaleon]

Yeah I am curious about that as well. Come on Alchemist friend we're all claiming. It's super fun!

[panthaleon]

Yo Nauci claim pls

[panthaleon]

Hey we have have just about all the claims go us:

Creature - Ascetic
HeWhoSwims - Neapoliton
Alchemist21 - Vanilla
Nauci - Vanilla
ejjinami - Gunsmith
Scioness Sajj - Vanilla
DrDolittle - Jack of All Trades
panthaleon - Informed Neighborizer

Kop - Vanilla Townie

Irrelephant11 - Vanilla Townie

BlueBloodedToffee - Vanilla Townie

Toranaga - Mafia Goon

Krazy - Vigilante

Now HWS's claim of Neapolitan is probably a lie because generally that role should only be able to say 'Vanilla' or 'Non Vanilla.' The NSG/Toranaga slot was a Vanilla Goon. I also really believe in town-Ejj, so I think that confirms him and Scioness. As scummy as Nauci feels, I am getting the feeling that I was wrong and that the VT claim is legit. I also think that Gunsmith + JOAT is kinda a weird duo, especially since I got a free confirmed town player from the start of the game.

Also in our Neighborhood Krazy told me his slot attempted to shoot Scioness's slot Night One. Since the closest thing we have to a Doctor claim did not claim to have protected Scioness, this suggests that the scum team has a Roleblocker. The assistance of a scum roleblocker to me suggests the Ascetic is probably town. Roleblocker + Ascetic on the scum team feels like a weird pairing.

At this point I am willing to entertain the possibility of the scum team being HWS and one of Alchemist or DDL. Anyone spot any glaring issues with my logic?

[panthaleon]

Also yeah DDL an explanation into why you made those choices would be super neat. I think the rest of us have kinda given our rationales at this point.

[panthaleon]

Oh huh so it does. I'm low-key bad at this game

[panthaleon]

It's a mix of two roles. I was told that Krazy's slot was town and that he was not vanilla. Then each night I can recruit someone to the neighborhood.

My assumption for it not going through would be a roleblocker of some sort. It's difficult to tell for sure though, however I think it's also confirmed that you were not protected by anyone. There's no way there's a doctor and a JOAT with the doctor ability.

[panthaleon]

Yeah I don't really believe the claim from DDL, but if it's true, then he should doc you. We can worry about who to take out next tomorrow then.

HWS if you are town, who is scum? Which claim is the lie since 3 investigative roles certainly seems excessive

[panthaleon]

Nauci there has to be a roleblocker because Krazy's slot tried to kill Scioness's night one. If we had a doctor, they would have counterclaimed DDL by now.

[panthaleon]

Krazy thought creature was probably town and I was down to let him make the call since it would help him get a better read. Creature was also active enough that we figured the the of us sharing reads would be a solid block to get reads and push scum.

[panthaleon]

That all seems reasonable to me. I'm happy to vote HWS one we're ready for the day to end.

[panthaleon]

Oh for defs. I was just putting it there that I didn't have a ton left to do.

Also for obvious reasons I'm keeping my neighbor target secret. Both because it's not super important and also because I don't want my target to die. It would be cool if someone could back up what I've been saying

[panthaleon]

I mean if HWS then GG 'cause then my reads on this reaction are toast.

VOTE: HeWhoSwims

[panthaleon]

I mean we look at his claim, we reevaluate Ejj's slot, we see who the mafia kills. It would pretty much be anarchy though if a player was town but didn't fight this at all.

[panthaleon]

(((o(ﾟ▽ﾟ)o)))

[panthaleon]

Are you for serious right now? Why was Alchemist killed?

I attempted to neighborize him last night because I figured he was suspicious enough that scum would leave him alive. Anyway yeah look forward to what Ejj found out last night.

[panthaleon]

DDL you posted those results after I wrote that my Neighborize action failed on Creature and Creature posted that he was Ascetic. It's not exactly difficult to fabricate an investigative role.

Based on who is left, I am happy to vote DDL and see if I actually have to rethink my town reads.

[panthaleon]

Also I wouldn't be surprised if DDL killed Alchemist to try to prove his cop claim.

[panthaleon]

At this point I really don't like 1657 from DDL, and I've never felt like creature is massively scummy. Plus an Ascetic Roleblocker Goon feels like a lot of power concentrated on one slot

PEDIT
Creature literally claimed and then I explained why I wanted him to

[panthaleon]

Here I was just trying to have literally anyone come into my neighborhood so that I could at least have a second pair of eyes validating what I've been saying. I do like Nauci's claim though. It kinda feels good and helps wrap up some stuff.

I think DDL feels more likely scum than creature, but my creature read is basically entirely from Krazy. He could definitely still be scum

[panthaleon]

Ok how about this. We Lynch DDL and during the night Ejj and Nauci investigate me while I attempt to neighborize Scioness. Then we look at the possible kills

Ejj - Nauci confirms me town when Scioness doesn't get in my neighborhood
Nauci - Ejj confirms I have no gun
Scioness - Nauci and Ejj both confirm me town

Does that sound like a reasonable night plan? Ejj is basically out of people to check except me, and this at least makes scum kill slightly harder.

[panthaleon]

That seems reasonable to me. If DDL is not scum, I think that just leaves Creature. However given that DDL seems to be doing the same thing that HWS, I feel like he has to be the last scum.

Failing that, we at least know that Creature has to be the last scum, so that's pretty neat. That or somehow Ejj is the last scum and has hyper mindgamed us and hard bussed his friend out of nowhere.

[panthaleon]

I can hammer whenever. Do we give DDL a chance to respond?

[panthaleon]

I just wanted a friend

But that's ok! Good work team.

[panthaleon]

Aww Nauci you really weren't terrible at all. I think you did a fine job in your position, especially with the way you were using your PR.