micro 816-I: spaam (normal game) (gambe over)

[Irrelephant11]

I mean replace me/gemini with flavor/gamma and you have my list, which is interesting

Sorry I want to be posting analysis but my internet is being really broken

[Irrelephant11]

But also upon cursory review my current favorite partner for scum!Gamma is mutant
ugh and now I have to go

Scumread me if I don't come back to this tomorrow, I just don't have time today

[Flavor Leaf]

You know what. I think I’m good thinking that I was right Day 2 with Gamma/Mutant, and then after that they played in a way specifically so that couldn’t be seen anymore.

[Irrelephant11]

Great! Shoshin sees it too. Longer posts coming today but the short version is VOTE: mutant

[Irrelephant11]

UNVOTE:
Shoshin and I agree that it's definitely Gamma/mutant

unless

FL is maybe scum
So... figure that out gemini/RC, and if FL is town then it feels solved fmpov

[Irrelephant11]

It's not AtE, it's me being upset that Irrelephant is making a big deal out of nothing

This quote is representative of how Ircher and Prof Fridays were both scumreading Gamma for the way he approached my RVS ending, which I agree was bad, among other things. Given we know they've flipped town it's worth considering sheeping them (in addition to the fact that re-reading Gamma's reaction to me early game gives me scum vibes)

See, this is why Gamma is scum. There's nothing really pingy about GIF's second post.

GIF's last line is the equivalent of a replacement asking "Is there anything important that I should know about" when they replace in. In this case though, GIF is simply behind due to V/LA and all, but functionally, it's the same statement.

OK cool. Thing is, I'm trying to kick this game up a notch since nothing seems to be happening.

Says he's trying to kick the game up a notch, but quits as soon as the attention turns on him

So I'm caught up of the game's preceding events.

I don't really have anything to comment on since I was reading it as just some reading rather than something to engage with. However, I will be engaging with things said from now on so that y'all can get some AI stuff from my slot.

Right now I think Gamma is town and Ircher feels *different* which is giving me a scum twitch.

In general, I find something off about {Ircher, Prof Fridays, GeminiTwin12 & Flavor Leaf}. Idk why but I just feel like both scums could be in such pool as if you pick any 2 players from this pool then they make sense as a scum team.

Townreads Gamma (a read he has never wavered on) and refers to Ircher with the phrase "scum twitch" which he will later backtrack. It's his first stated scumread, and yet he ends up the only player other than me off the Ircher lynch.

Right now I think Gamma is town and Ircher feels *different* which is giving me a scum twitch.

pls talk about both of these in more detail

This is the beginning of Gamma & FL's only real interaction. Occasionally they have VERY casual interactions after this, but in large part they just assume each other to be town and move on after this "sorting" interaction D1. Given how much paranoia I and most players have had about each other, this is definitely suspect.

Right now I think Gamma is town and Ircher feels *different* which is giving me a scum twitch.

pls talk about both of these in more detail

When I was reading your posts I remember thinking "yeah, this is the stuff I had to deal with when I was scum" and I feel like Ircher should have said something with more weight by now which makes me feel like he has a little less care for this game - something I assume comes from scum!Ircher.

okay cool
that had a couple of reason to it
1) me checking your read on me cos I wanted to ensure you had something behind it. I think that's a good thought process fyi.
2) I just wanted you to expand in general to help get a decent read on you. fyi: town read for now.
and btw what games have you played with Ircher?

This is the rest of it. Then it's just mutual townreads for the rest of the game

Are you trying to discredit my knowledge of you now?

Because this:

I haven’t said something of more weight because there isn’t quite a lot to go by.

Gave me the impression that you thought I was right about my analysis and that your defence was that there isn't a lot to go on yet.

Do you want to change your defence to that I'm not familiar enough with you?

More pushing of a scumread on Ircher that he drops and retcons later

Professor why did you just speculate on someone’s PR status???????

Oh good I’m already voting you. Like that’s not even setup spec, either. It just helps scum???

Ircher, Gamma, take a break from each other and join this wagon please

Wow not sure what to do about gamma and ircher actually following me onto the professor

I'm thinking town more than likely includes
me
the duck
the professor
the leaf
the twin
the emerald

leaving ircher, freezer, mutant. Hmm weird

Also what if it's flavorleaf and the worst

So you are telling me this ended up a reaction test? Because I honestly don't buy it as such.
VOTE: Irrelephant

I don't think he did but I don't like how you respond

Gamma says Ircher is scummy for reacting to my "reaction test" badly, but has nothing to say about mutant's identical response on the next page

oh yeah I forgot I was voting him for a reason. Sorry I've been playing too many games the past week or so, thankfully one just ended and [redacted], so I'll be a little more able to keep my reads straight. Still, you two seemed really into scumreading each other, so it was still a little weird how quickly you both dropped it. I think you look worse from it than Gamma, possibly from conf!bias, but you're right that the professor should maybe still be in my lynchpool

honestly that reads list was more the reaction test while I catch up & re-read, which I'm still doing

What the hell is this?

honestly that reads list was more the reaction test

hahahahahhaha

VOTE: Irrelephant11

[Irrelephant11]

In general, I find something off about {Ircher, Prof Fridays, GeminiTwin12 & Flavor Leaf}. Idk why but I just feel like both scums could be in such pool as if you pick any 2 players from this pool then they make sense as a scum team.

Please talk more about these players individually. "any combo makes sense as a team" is a terrible reason to scumread individual players.
Also I find it odd that mutant's ISO has this lynchpool and then some "Ircher is scummy" posts and then his first vote is on me. I've proven to myself time and time again that I overreact to being voted and/or antagonized as town though so I'm trying to leave room on this read for others to comment

I find it odd that you'd question this now instead of earlier. My guess at your timing would be that you're trying to distract my mind and the mind of others from your slip.

And I never said that I scum read any of these individuals. I was just saying that you could pair any 2 of the individuals from this list and you could believe they're a scum team.


"Also I find it odd that mutant's ISO has this lynchpool and then some "Ircher is scummy" posts and then his first vote is on me" - You say that as though my vote on you came out of nowhere.

Here is where he starts retconning his scumread of Ircher (among other thigns I still scumread him doing)

I just think your time, if town, would be better spent trying to pull AI content from other players, rather than lynch a v active player with, I guess, the votes of the inactives?

Or like if you're unsure on tw he's around enough you could be interacting with him

If you're town I'd be surprised if your one D1 tunnel was scum when you hadn't yet sorted 1/2+ of the playerlist. Also your reads on Prof and me seem to both be scumreads, so like, is there *anyone* you think is town atm?

Gamma similar thoughts @you regarding Ircher, though I think you've been less problematic in regards to ignoring large swaths of the playerlist

ircher/mutant?

Hm? This is at me right? I don't think you're scum rn, thought I mentioned that. Beyond that also think tw and mutant are town

Typical scum move of tossing a partner in casual townreads

MUCH more coming tomorrow gtg

[GeminiTwin12]

UNVOTE:
Shoshin and I agree that it's definitely Gamma/mutant

unless

FL is maybe scum
So... figure that out gemini/RC, and if FL is town then it feels solved fmpov

Based on Flavor Leaf's post 1877 - it feels like if FL is scum with either of them then I'm crowning him the king of calculated bussing, can you ask Shoshin their thoughts on the potential for this? @Irrelephant

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: Gamma

Please hammer this asap

[Flavor Leaf]

VOTE: Gamma

GG. Gemeni and I were scum.

[Flavor Leaf]

UNVOTE

I’m willing to go Gamma and think i was correct with Gamma/Mutant.

I understand why Gamma is the one to pick first, as well, because a Mutant lynch if the team is Gamma/Myself wins. And for some reason it’s worse if I win than if Mutant wins

[Irrelephant11]

UNVOTE:
Shoshin and I agree that it's definitely Gamma/mutant

unless

FL is maybe scum
So... figure that out gemini/RC, and if FL is town then it feels solved fmpov

Based on Flavor Leaf's post 1877 - it feels like if FL is scum with either of them then I'm crowning him the king of calculated bussing, can you ask Shoshin their thoughts on the potential for this? @Irrelephant

Yeah she's re-reading FL now (now in a broad, she'll get back to me, sense)

VOTE: Gamma

GG. Gemeni and I were scum.

Yes, good, my blood pressure was certainly too low this morning


RC I want Mutant and so does Shoshin. why do you want Gamma?

[Irrelephant11]

mutant are town

wait why

Help me see past the omgus

I feel like his attitude plus perspective are towny
you can probably just read my interactions with him and you'll understand it

This now reads as "We scripted a pretty good interaction that you can use to townread us both"

Because it was a reaction test of sorts. I wanted to see what people would say if I gave some estimation of my reads - I knew that if I misremembered anything someone would bring it up

Yeah I can see how you can get something AI out of this

This was clearly a lame attempt to buddy me/do the opposite of mutant (who was pushing me for this at the time).

I said it's not obvious to me that those posts come from town, when it seemed like those were what other players were townreading you for.

What made you think those 2 posts in particular were responsible for people town reading me?

The only people explicitly town reading me are Gamma and Ircher. Maybe ducky but that's nothing official. Gamma clearly formed his town read on me from my responses to the questions he asked me

and Ircher didn't state a reason; though it can be inferred it was from my recent posts at the time - but that only justifies half of your statement.

Why ask if my answer can't ever be good enough?

I never said that your answers could never be good enough, just that the specific one you're giving me for one of my questions wasn't. It'd concern me if you felt as though your answers were hopeless to this specific event in the game.

I didn't think a mistake would lead to this mess.

How naive must you be to think it wouldn't concern others when one of your seemingly stronger reads blatantly and abruptly changed? Do you not think it's scum indictive when player's reads change for no reason?

it doesn't feel like mutant wants to understand my perspective, he just wants to push.

There's no reason that I can't both understand your perspective and push against it. I understand your proposed perspective very well. If you are town, you've made a mistake which you see as being blown out of proportion. Whilst I understand that perspective, to accept it would be to assume you are town. I do not accept your perspective. I see a likelihood of you being scum here so pushing against your perspective is the best way to discover the truth. For all I know, your perspective could be that of scum who made a slip and is now frustrated on being pushed for it.

I find it hard to believe this wasn't you giving a scum/lynch pool. Especially because if it wasn't a lynchpool, you have offered basically no reads since replace-in aside from scumreading me and Ircher.

no reads aside from town reading gamma and scum reading you*

I never said I scum read Ircher.

And that's how I like to play - I don't care for leans in either direction. If my read isn't strong, it's null. Right now I have a strong belief that you are scum and an even stronger belief that Gamma is town. If you expect me to have a read on everyone by the end of the day then you're just going to be disappointed. It's entirely plausible that we could make it to end game without me forming a read on anyone.

You never voted Ircher. It was a scumcase without a vote to back it up. Why?

Do all scam cases really need a supporting vote? I believe that the more you use your vote the less value it holds. It's more significant that I'm voting you due to the fact that I didn't use it on Ircher.

Whilst I expressed reasons that Ircher is scummy, I don't actually scum read him at this time.

I've played around with the idea that he is scum, expressed in the thread what has been going through my mind, but arrived at the conclusion that it isn't enough to scum read him fully. I'm likely to view Ircher with a more critical eye though, but that doesn't warrant a vote. If I had reached the opposite conclusion then my vote would definately have been on Ircher.

1) Subtle defense of Gamma's choice to townread mutant
2) Who says this to the player they're tunneling as scum?
3) More Ircher retconning - maybe to avoid being seen as playing too similarly to Gamma?

I mean you admit here that you have listed reason why Ircher is scummy. I will add that you have also not listed a single reason he might not be scum. Apparently my single post was enough for a vote, so I do find it scummy that you refuse to vote him despite listing multiple reasons he could be scum.

Also like I and others have said, your "not-a-lynchpool" list from one of your early posts is meaningless as associational data, and if it's not a set of scumreads it makes no sense to share. You can pick most pairs of players on D1 (heck, even us) and say they're a likely scumteam. You could have listed every single player in between those brackets. I haven't seen from you that you're doing any work to find pairs who cannot be scum together, so why did you list those four names specifically? I think it made a ton of sense as a lynchpool, but I think now that you've decided you'd rather have me lynched you feel the need to backtrack, say you haven't given many reads, that you might never give reads! (even though you say at the same time that you have two strong reads)

Your play makes zero sense to me so far. I would expect to understand something about your town mindset if we shared an alignment. I don't. VOTE: mutantdevle
This also explains why I thought there was at most one scum in the five or six players who have been active since daystart. I found the one who needed to be replaced.

Do I need to provide reasons he is

not

scum? Surely the burden of proof here is that, for him to be scum, I need to provide reasons to prove that he

is

scum. Hence the lack of that means he isn't. All my reasons to suspect him I do not believe to be enough to say with any degree of certainty that he is scum.

I'm not scum reading you for a single post. It's a mixture of your original slip, your attempts to justify it - my vote was for these reasons - and then your answers thereafter giving me no reason to back off. And the suspicion of you and the suspicion of Ircher are completely different. My suspicion of Ircher is entirely based on my expectations of him. He's not meeting my expectations. That doesn't make him scum because my own expectations are by no means an accurate measure of his alignment. On the other hand, you made a slip that is specifically to do with the very nature of being scum. As scum, your reads aren't real. I believe your reads list, shit justification of a mistake, and reaction thereafter, to be indicative that your reads are made up. Do you see how the 2 are completely different?

If you think that my list doesn't give any associations then clearly you aren't looking for them. The very fact that I felt the need to mention those 4 is worth something. And it does make sense to share... if I later make a case that 2 of these players are a scum team then you'll be able to trace back the moment I started believing in such premise - where the route of the idea came from. You can then asses whether I've had a natural progression of thought or if I've been planning a fake case in the long run.

And I disagree that you could pick anyone and say they could be a scum team. Naturally, some people are going to make more sense than others. And, as I've said, I mentioned those 4 in particular as, from reading all the posts before the replace in, I thought their posts complemented each other well. I've made no backtracking of any sort, I still have this belief of these 4.

It's true I haven't given many reads. I have 2. That's how I play. My reads build slowly and carefully.

I don't care for rushing the progression of my reads

or claiming a town read where I've merely liked a single post. As for not forming a read on anyone, I meant someone. I'm not likely to complete a game with no reads, that would be ridiculous. But it's plausible that I could go a game without forming a conclusive read on player B for example. I find that you don't always need to.

"Your play makes zero sense to me so far. I would expect to understand something about your town mindset if we shared an alignment. VOTE: mutantdevle"
So basically, your vote on me is because we think differently? Nice.

1) Like what?
2) Bolding this as an early instance of multiple references by mutant to his own "progression" - mutant has really held to the idea that the fact he can point to his own clear progression is a towntell, but I don't think town is ever so careful. But because he thinks it earns him townpoints, he plants the idea here that this is what will happen.
3) Impressive AtE to get me to unvote him but also a bizarre thing to say to someone you think is lying

[schadd_]

ha yah, i've got plenty of time
ha yah, you've got light in your eyes
and you're standing here beside me
i love the passing of time
never for money, always for love
come up and say goodnight, say goodnight
talking heads - this must be the place

Vote count 3.3

GeminiTwin12 (1):

mutantdevle

Gamma Emerald (1):

RadiantCowbells

not voting (4):

Gamma Emerald, GeminiTwin12, Irrelephant11, Flavor Leaf

with 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. day 3 ends september 12th at 08:30 central US time; in (expired on 2018-09-12 08:30:00)

mod notes

• ;

[/area]

[Irrelephant11]

and tw to provide deeper thoughts than he has been.

I'd like to echo this. I'm noticing a distinct lack of a quack which usually brightens up my games.

Around here mutant just kind of drops his scumread of me, like he forgot, and "echoes" my post. He doesn't say his read of me changed, though, and he leaves his vote until day end.

Hi so I'm probably going to be hunting on the Ircher wagon today, he should never have been lynched once Creature started participating

Basically another way of saying "Look, I'm gonna avoid talking about mutant today" (especially since it's not long from here that Gamma decide Flavor Leaf is probably right that I'm scum, even though I'm off the wagon).

This happens early on Mutants entry, and although Gamma is like Mutant’s only started town read, he is never brought up again.

What need have I to bring up Gamma again? Unless he does something that makes me reconsider my read on him, I feel no real need to engage with him given we have both formed a conclusion on each other - aside, of course, from asking him about his other reads as advice which I feel like I have no need to do at this stage.

Just gonna leave this here.

okay cool
that had a couple of reason to it
1) me checking your read on me cos I wanted to ensure you had something behind it. I think that's a good thought process fyi.
2) I just wanted you to expand in general to help get a decent read on you. fyi: town read for now.
and btw what games have you played with Ircher?

The quote of Gamma’s i posted earlier was also directed towards Mutant. Interesting.

But if we're both scum then that kinda devalues the reason you thought this post made Gamma scum does it not?

This is a really strong scum post, Gamma. Impressed.

Getting a read on you from someone else, and then having the player do something for you.

You’re getting a player to want you to trust them rather than the Mafia way of you trying to get them to trust you.

Nice.

This obviously wouldn't be his intent if he knew me to be scum.

Maybe you should take this as a sign that, if either of us was scum, we're not scum together?

This was also my conclusion at the time, but the way mutant says it (I think after I'd already said it?) is pretty suspect.

I'm okay with you scum reading a strong town read of mine - because a lot of my reads tend to turn out wrong - but trying to tie me in with them through 'PoE'? Nah. I think you need to do some reevaluating.

"When I mislynch it isn't my fault"
"You can't PoE down to me and my scum partner that's... bad"

I think Irrelephant's day 2 posting has convinced me that they are town.

Let's track this progression

This post is a reminder to myself to reread the last page and a half because I kinda skim read it due to finding it boring.

Done. Too much pointlessness for my liking. All it's done is made me slightly doubt my irrelephant town read but nowhere near enough to remove it.

You want me to vote irrelephant?

I'd prefer it if you kept engaging with Gemini tbh.

Okay, Flavour Leaf I'm going to make a choice to trust you here. In my head, you are either scum trying to take control or town who is

probably

right. So since I town read Gamma, what you're telling me is that irrelephant and Gemini are the scum team.

Do you want me to place intent to hammer irrelephant?

Definitely a surprise from a slot that seems pretty sure I'm town, so I ask about it

Anyway mutant you can't intent to hammer since there's now only two votes on me. But welcome back - please do tell why FL is right and what about me/gemini reads scummy to you

So I can just vote you normally then?

I find myself regularly agreeing with FL but not necessarily liking the tone of his posts. Of course, 'tone' is just the way one reads posts so that's me doing that and not necessarily him.

You don't seem scummy to me, I have you as a town read - I'm sheeping here because I want to see where FL's attitude and opinions lead. Despite changing his stance a few times throughout the game, he's confident in them - like he believes each one and then reaches a different conclusion. Actually, reading that back makes me have some faith in town!FL.

But the point is that giving FL what he wants is something that, I believe, will give us more information on him. If that involves lynching you, so be it. My read on you isn't the strongest and I'm known to have bad reads - so there's still the chance you could be scum from my PoV. And if lynching town!you proves later that FL is scum, then your death would be worth it and you wouldn't die in vain.

As for Gemini, she is in my lynch pool anyway. Not because she's necessarily scummy, but because she is not one of my town reads and I'm yet to sort her.

His explanation is "I wanted to flip you green to prove that Flavor Leaf is scum"

And if lynching town!you proves later that FL is scum, then your death would be worth it and you wouldn't die in vain.

yuck
this as a reason to give intent to hammer?

Yeah. I just like it when people claim :3 I doubt I'd actually have hammered you thereafter.

Good news for you is that I've reassured myself of your alignment being town (though primarily because I have now finally formed proper scum reads).

He retcons his reasoning to "I wouldn't have actually hammered, I just wanted you to claim" (explaining nothing about how this helps him read Flavor Leaf, which he previously said was central to giving intent)

Okay so this is my preferred lynch order:

Gemini > the worst >

FL > RC >

Irrelephant > Gamma.

I'm also very confident that at least one of Gemini and FL are scum.

And then I'm back at the top of his townreads with Gamma (who he has never really towncased, and who at this point didn't deserve higher than null)

Mutant did say they’d go on Irrelephant, so i am happy to stay on Mutant for the this day phase

Umm, when did I say I'd vote Irrelephant? I'm town reading Irrelephant and not willing to vote them at all. I want either Gemini or the worst lynched.

Calling this out as another retcon

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: mutant

I can keep writing these walls if you guys want, it's pretty damning stuff
But personally I've convinced myself
mutant before gamma because mutant should have been lynched last game day
But if there's some strong reason to vote Gamma first I guess I will

[mutantdevle]

Off I should have been prodded by now. Catching up.

[mutantdevle]

Wow, only 2 pages to catch up on. I guess this game has stagnated a bit.

[mutantdevle]

No offence to NSG or anyone else but my posting is dependent upon how much time I have to actually do so, if busy or not - not because of my alignment. And NSG should know that there's no way I'm going to pick being scum over town.

@Mutant, please do share your thoughts on how you think Me/Gamma have interesting interactions, I need to see your thought process here.

Patience my child. I shall provide things for you to respond to soon.

[mutantdevle]

I was starting to freak out that we don’t have time to make sense of this game but we have over a week, phew

Ummm can we talk more about Gamma/Flavor? I feel like it makes a lot of sense and everyone just kind of ignored it when I said it

I was starting to freak out that we don’t have time to make sense of this game but we have over a week, phew

Ummm can we talk more about Gamma/Flavor? I feel like it makes a lot of sense and everyone just kind of ignored it when I said it

No, it makes sense. I’m just town is all.

What's the case on you being scum with Gamma? I guess it makes sense but it's not one of the options I'd put much credit to.

[mutantdevle]

Also, there’s zero reason for me as scum to turn on Gamma like I was pushing the past page or so, though, so that’s a rather weak reach you’re seemingly pushing.

I mean, this is exactly why I'd find it hard to believe FL and Gamma are scum together. FL is scum reading both me and Gemini and, since we've been the main 2 candidates for most of this day, he could have

easily

pushed either of us for a win.

[mutantdevle]

I still think I think it's Flavor/Gamma
@mutant, thoughts?
@RC?

I don't really see FL as scum at this point in the game tbh and even if he was I doubt it would be with Gamma.

Why exactly do you suspect these two together?

[mutantdevle]

UNVOTE:
Shoshin and I agree that it's definitely Gamma/mutant

unless

FL is maybe scum
So... figure that out gemini/RC, and if FL is town then it feels solved fmpov

So you think it's either me and Gamma or FL and Gamma yet I'm the one you want to vote?

:(

You're explanation better be that whatever case your about to make is that the evidence is stronger towards me than the other two otherwise I might have to put an apostrophe in the middle of that sad face.

[mutantdevle]

Townreads Gamma (a read he has never wavered on) and refers to Ircher with the phrase "scum twitch" which he will later backtrack. It's his first stated scumread, and yet he ends up the only player other than me off the Ircher lynch.

I mean, I have wavered on it... a few pages ago I stated how I scum read Gamma and that I have done for a while but chose not to say anything about it.

Also, the only reason I wasn't on the Ircher wagon was because my activity was low at the time. I'm fairly certain I would have been on it had I been there (which I say on day 2).

[mutantdevle]

More pushing of a scumread on Ircher that he drops and retcons later

I disagree that my post here was 'pushing a scum read'. It was 'shading someone who made a shitty post'.