Newbie 1888 | Stuff I Found Online IV | Over

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.02

"The X.Y problem, as it is sometimes called, is a mental block which leads to enormous amounts of wasted time and energy, both on the part of people asking for help, and on the part of those providing help. It often goes something like this:

User wants to do X.
User doesn't know how to do X, but thinks they can fumble their way to a solution if they can just manage to do Y.
User doesn't know how to do Y either.
User asks for help with Y.
Others try to help user with Y, but are confused because Y seems like a strange problem to want to solve.
After much interaction and wasted time, it finally becomes clear that the user really wants help with X, and that Y wasn't even a suitable solution for X."

The article goes on to provide some quite entertaining examples specific to bash programming, but it can be useful to think of the X-Y problem more broadly when troubleshooting a problem.

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Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

Mister Rogers

(3): Inferno390, xx2008, innocentvillager

the worst

(2): Draynth, Hugo Stiglitz

xx2008

(1): Mister Rogers

Not Voting

(3): the worst, boguspotatohead, Volxen

Deadline:

(expired on 2018-09-17 18:00:00).

Mod notes:

Keep it fun

Volxen is the new Nastytoe! boguspotatohead has not confirmed and is being replaced. If they confirm before a replacement can be found, they can stay.

[volxen]

Hello all! Going to read through the thread and get caught up.

[Plotinus]

innocentvillager has request replacement. Finding a new one...

[Mister Rogers]

On re-read of this thread, my townread on Hugo has stregthened because of his concern over replacements and the game state.

[the worst]

onoes it's volxen

hey again friend

[Mister Rogers]

Well, TWO friends can only be good here.

[volxen]

So most of the content in this game seems to be the Mister Rodgers vs Inferno argument. I’m not really sure that anything meaningful came out of it, and it could very well just be a heated TvT dispute that came out of differences in playstyle. However, what interests me the most so far is how xx2008 has responded to things.

First, xx2008 votes for Mister Rodgers in 49. As MR pointed out in 88, xx’s vote for MR came just three minutes after Inferno’s own vote for MR. Now it is possible that xx started typing up his post before Inferno made his own post where he voted for MR, and xx simply ignored the warning about their being new posts when he went to submit his own post. However, xx’s subsequent posts and behavior makes me doubt that.

So he votes for MR in 49, and then in 64 and 67, he says that his vote for MR is purely RVS and not serious. He also claims he did not see the second page at the time he posted, which implies that he thought that no one else had voted for MR at the time he voted for MR. xx’s posts 49, 64, 67, 72, 73, and 78 were all made within about an hour timespan, and he maintains throughout these posts that 1) his vote for MR is

PURELY RVS

and 2) that he was

completely unaware

of the fact that Inferno had already voted for MR at the time he placed his own vote for MR. But then my question is this: If xx did NOT intend to start a potential bandwagon against MR (or anyone else for that matter),

why didn’t he simply unvote (or randomly vote for someone else who didn’t have any votes) as soon as he realized that Inferno had already voted for MR?

All he had to do was to make a post to the effect of “I didn’t realize MR already had someone voting for him, and I don’t want to start a bandwagon against him, so I am going to vote for someone else that has no votes (or unvote)”. It literally would have been that simple. But instead, he simultaneously 1) maintains that his vote for MR is purely RVS and not serious or based on scumreading him, 2) maintains that he wasn’t aware that Inferno already had voted for MR and implies that he wouldn’t have voted for MR if he had known that Inferno already voted for him, and 3) keeps his vote on MR anyways despite 1) and 2). There were plenty of people who had no votes that he could have placed an RVS vote on, and yet he chooses to keep his vote on MR. The whole thing just comes off as highly contradictory and suspect to me.

And also in 78, he again reinforces the fact that his vote for MR was purely RVS, but then at the same time is defending himself when he says, “Although you shouldn't go after Inferno right away during RVS”. Why does he feel the need to justify himself here if his vote for MR was purely RVS? More specifically, if the vote truly was RVS, then why does he in the same sentence 1) reiterate the fact that the vote was RVS and 2) criticize MR for “going after” Inferno? I don’t know, but it just feels like he is almost trying to cover his bases, like he wants his vote to somehow simultaneously be both RVS but also serious because he found MR to be scummy in his interactions with Inferno, which he directly said in his earlier post 72. It’s either pure RVS or it’s serious; it can’t be both at the same time.

Then about four hours after he made post 78, he makes post 133, where his tune seems to have changed completely. At this point, what was supposedly an initial pure RVS vote has now turned into a full-fledged serious vote based on him now scumreading MR. Is this town!xx2008 developing a more solidified scumread on someone who just happened to be his initial RVS vote by chance, or is it scum!xx2008 realizing that he needs to come up with some sort of justification if he is going to keep his vote on MR? I don’t know yet, but I do find the reasoning behind his scumread of MR in 133 to be pretty bad. He basically says here that he thinks MR is scum because he 1) posts too much and 2) because he tried to get a reaction out of Inferno. At the end he says, “Constantly trying to get a reaction out of someone might make it seem like they are scum when they are not”, which I really don’t like. Why is he so against things like reaction testing and pressing people for answers? Engaging people and asking them questions to get to the bottom of their motivations is literally what this game is all about, and sometimes people have to be pressed/pushed in order to do that. Sometimes aggression is exactly what is needed in this game to uncover both town and scum. Overall, his scumread of MR is extremely weak, in my opinion. And why does xx place all of the blame on MR for the long and drawn-out MR vs Inferno debate? Both MR and Inferno equally contributed to how long and drawn-out their argument was, yet xx only has a problem with MR “posting too much”.

I didn’t like xx’s post 153 where says, “And, why are you going after post times? Doesn't this seem like scum trying to find an excuse to get someone?”. Here he is criticizing a legitimate tactic and trying to shutdown discussion. If MR suspects that xx is scum, then it makes a lot of sense to reiterate the post times regarding when Inferno and xx voted for MR. If xx is in fact scum, then the fact that Inferno voted for MR at 12:07 P.M. (see post 48) and xx voted for MR

three minutes later

at 12:10 P.M. (see post 49) is VERY relevant, as it would clearly indicate that xx purposely sheeped Inferno’s vote to start a bandwagon against MR.

And I really didn’t like xx’s post 172 as it just seems like lazy scumhunting. OK, so he’s made it clear at this point that MR is his top scumread, but why in the world does he just assume that the other member of the scumteam is more likely to be among the replacements rather than the original players? This doesn’t even make any sense. The original players that are being replaced are nastytoe (replaced by me), boguspotatohead (not replaced yet), and innocentvillager (not replaced yet). IV’s only content was basically saying that he wanted to replace out because he doesn’t want to play with MR, and NT and BPH literally have no content in the game. And at the time xx wrote post 172, I didn’t have any content in this game either. If anything, shouldn’t xx be nullreading these 3 slots which (at the time) basically had zero content collectively in this game?

Anyways, for now I am going to park my vote on xx as I would like him to explain himself and especially his scumread of MR more, and he is the most suspicious player for me at the moment.

VOTE: xx2008

[Mister Rogers]

So most of the content in this game seems to be the Engaging people and asking them questions to get to the bottom of their motivations is literally what this game is all about, and sometimes people have to be pressed/pushed in order to do that. Sometimes aggression is exactly what is needed in this game to uncover both town and scum.

Thank you sir. If there has been one thing burning in my heart for this town to hear, it is the above quote. Thank you.

[Plotinus]

Formerfish replaces innocentvillager! Please welcome them!

[the worst]

Hi Fish, and hi whoever you are now!
Nice to meet you officially. I've read a few of your games, and look forward to playing with you. I also think your slot just might be town.

[Formerfish]

Hello everyone.

Hi worst. Did you read games of mine for me specifically, or just happen to catch ones I was in? Which ones did you look at?

[the worst]

without checking too hard,

Newbie 1871 by aa9
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76338
Newbie 1872 by mm4
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76365

I think a couple of eithers, but these stuck out to me. and I'm not stalking you yet, you've been incidental to the fact I've been reading the games but you've been a delight to see.

[Formerfish]

without checking too hard,

Newbie 1871 by aa9
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76338
Newbie 1872 by mm4
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=76365

I think a couple of eithers, but these stuck out to me. and I'm not stalking you yet, you've been incidental to the fact I've been reading the games but you've been a delight to see.

Those are ok games. 1871 was when i replaced into a scumslot during a mass claim. I cced one of the claims, and got the actual role lynched. Then we killed the other pr unimpeded that night. I spent all of the next day just shit posting because I was confirmed scum and town didn't lynch me. We won that game off Not-Mafias endgame.

1872 was I think one of my first games back on site after about a year away. It wasnt a good town game for me. I got hooked into something that didnt let me go and I pushed a mislynch on the IC day 1. Somehow I ate the n1 kill too though...

I would look at these ones to get a better idea of what you'd be seeing from me:

1876- I had a better grasp and was killed n1 to get me out of the game.
1873- I tunneled and mislynched on d1, but then we got our shit together on day 2 and 3 for the town win.

[Formerfish]

I am catching up right now and I have got to be honest. If the posting from Mr Rogers doesnt calm down a bit in tone and frequency he and I are going to butt heads. I already know it. This is why I know it:

1881

Look at the way that quick interacts with me. I am seeing a lot of similarities in the play from these two guys. For some reason scum always tries to come after me in situations like that. I suppose I do have a habit of blowing up sometimes to maybe they are trying to put me on tilt. They dont tilt me, usually, but I have become pretty used to dealing with them. I dont like it and read it as scum bullying tactics, but thats just how I read it.

[Inferno390]

@Roger:
You say you are a newbie with only 2 games.
I am an SE with games in the double digits.
And I’M the one who’s misunderstanding things?

[Inferno390]

So most of the content in this game seems to be the Engaging people and asking them questions to get to the bottom of their motivations is literally what this game is all about, and sometimes people have to be pressed/pushed in order to do that. Sometimes aggression is exactly what is needed in this game to uncover both town and scum.

Thank you sir. If there has been one thing burning in my heart for this town to hear, it is the above quote. Thank you.

The fact that you are taking a tiny part what volxen is saying out of context and warping it to defend your own play is highly concerning.

[Mister Rogers]

Let's not mix up gameplay and player status. There are plenty of people on this site that have offiste experience. It is irrelevant. Let's stick to play in the game.

@Former: Welcome to the game! I am sure we ill get along fine, besides, I don't "go after people" but I certainly do lynch scum. Looking forward to your catchup.

[Inferno390]

@volxen:
I get the feeling there is some good content in 171, but it’s so long and in-depth that I’m having trouble parsing it. Would you summarize that for me plz?

[Mister Rogers]

@inferno: PLease step back a bit and realize this is not about my own play but about play across all games of mafia in the universe.

[Inferno390]

Okay.
As an SE, I am formally telling you to stop.
Your view of Mafia is not the end-all be-all of this game.
I am an SE.
You are a newbie.
If you are going to act like I don’t understand how to play this game and the technical schematics of it, and go over my head with all your “universal Mafia” high and mighty talk, I will pull that card.
You are being condescending and overbearing.
Stop it.
Right now.

[Inferno390]

Duck, speak to me more about your reads.
Why are you getting Town vibes from all these different players?

[Mister Rogers]

Excuse me? You are going outside the game play saying that I am being overbearing? OK sir. I have had enough of this. If I am supposedly being ovberbearing, please quote the specific posts so everyone here (including the Mod) may see.

Furthermore,. if you and myself are town, we are supposed to be working TOGETHER. There is not supposed to be this "default animopsity". So far I haven't had these feelings toward your slot but I am starting to now with these bizarre accusations.

I don't personally think it is fair play to mix up scum tactics in with a SE/IC slot and kind of merge them into a tool to attack town and I want to state for the record that I hope this isn't happening.

===========

Look obviously we have gotten off on the wrong foot here. Can we just start over or something? I am not your enemy. I am not mad at you or out to get you. I have gone out of my way to be nice to you and to help us both come to a consensus regarding our play. So can we please just start fresh here?

[Draynth]

Heyo, I'll 100% be able to post tomorrow, today was pretty full on so didn't manage to get any mafia stuff done.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

oh boy. volxen has replaced so now i'm feeling some heavy deja vu here u__u welcome tho !

can we move on from this ugly argument pls? like if you really can't let it go please take it to a private chat.


but onto the game:

i should probably wait for xx to respond but it's been 12 hours and i'd really like to move on from this bummer of an argument.

i thought it was an interesting point that volxen brought up about "why didn't xx change their vote"?
well, firstly, no one else had brought it up, so it doesn't seem like an idea that anyone really thought of.
also, i have my vote on another player as well - what's so wrong with a bit of pressure even at the opening of the game?
with volxen's vote, he has put on pressure on xx along with MR. just noting that here..it seems we've moved on beyond RVS now.

[Mister Rogers]

Nice post Hugo thanks. I would like to point out that I immediately pointed out to XX that I was at L-3 and they immediately demonstrated that they knew what that meant. Therefore we can see that XX had no intention of changing their vote. IMO it appears as if they just decided to magically make up a reason to stay. :shrug:

Just for clarification, putting someone at L-3 is no crime even in the RVS but what bothers me is the cog-dis way in which this wagon was created by XX.