Newbie 1889: Ice Cream (Game Over)

[NotNova]

I have no idea what you mean by "putting myself in your pocket".

[RCEnigma]

Actually Xwing I want to wait on giving that a reply, at least until Thor posts a bit.

Nova don't worry about it then.

[UC Voyager]

Whoa. I will read through tomorrow. It is already like 20:45 and when I get home I want to watch my show til I decide to go to sleep...but tomorrow will be easier. I'm kind of vla during the weekends.

[Thor665]

Lots of stuff all about me, I'm going to try to keep it succinct but the wall is as the wall does.

In a faction 1(Town) vs faction 2(Mafia) game, faction one is more or less going to behave like faction 1 naturally. Faction 2 is going to attempt to behave like faction 1 (mostly reactively). Your specific deviations as either in past games are not necessarily applicable to THIS game. Because you can choose to play however you want.

Fair enough.
So why do you have expectations of my play you're judging me on and where do you draw them from?

Well now that I've told you, it doesnt make it a very good reason does it? But fair enough, you solved it a page in.

It may or may not make it a good reason, but it does prove that your initial point against me holds no water because there *are* scum reasons to do what you did, yeah?
Those reasons can be true or not true - but you trying to claim that there isn't a reason while admitting you can see at least one proves that your attack on me for this point is baseless, yes?
If I'm wrong on that conclusion - how am I wrong?

In the part you replied to is the answer. Maybe interact with me about it.

You admitted you had bad logic and kept your vote where it was - I see no value in further interaction.
Are you saying you were open to being *more* convinced your vote was bad and I should have done that?
Eh...

vNow maybe you are absolutely certain I'm scum, which you can't be. Or you aren't voting who you truly believe to be scum. Because if you have the conviction you claim to have in that you found scum in post 1 then a mislynch is just a sacrifice you are willing to accept. Correct or am I off base? If you are making decisions already based on information you have, it leads me to believe you have more information available than the rest of us. which means, well you get the gist.

Where have I suggested absolute conviction exactly?
Sounds like you're putting words in my mouth and then calling me scummy for saying them, yeah?
Quote my expression of super conviction?

I'm voting you because I disagree with the way you are fabricating stances.

Quote the reads I'm fabricating?
The most you can say is "you're voting someone early for something that is arguably not scumtell" to which I'll reply, 'sure, but it *might* be a scumtell, and I'm being perfectly open about my thoughts, so...where's the fire?'

However the way its framed is that Voyager is wrong to be wary of your scum game, because odds say that you are more likely town than scum. That doesn't really stand when the same is true for every other person in the playerlist.

I agree with your conclusion that it's the same for everyone in the playerlist.
It's why I think it's oimportant for players to understand that too much fear and distrust is inherently poor play.
Why do you disagree with that?
If you don't disagree with that then I think you're agreeing with me.

Also I gather you have at least a townlean on Volxen but not Reundo?

I have not expressed either thought and am not sure where you're getting that.
I have a neutral take on both currently. I'd be willing to lynch either.

Do you really think people are suspecting you because of this? For me personally, I can say that I'm definately not voting you solely based on that -- that's hardly a driving factor for me at all, in fact.

I kind of do - people are assuredly talking about it a lot if they don't have an issue with it.
Of course, they aren't actually really describing their issues with me, so that is hurting my assessment

I agree that putting pressure on a player is a good way to glean reactions, but you can do that without wanting them lynched ASAP. It sounded like you thought that someone voted for a player meant they want that player lynched, so it seemed like you did disagree with my theory. Can you tell me what parts you agree with then, because I'm kind of confused tbh.

I have implied (and do believe) that voting a player shows you want to lynch them. I don't support voting players you aren't willing to lynch (or at least will go to your death claiming as such) because otherwise there's no reason or point in voting them.
Please quote me saying anyone should be lynched ASAP - you are making up that belief and applying it to me. If I had said that I would at least somewhat understand your issue with me.

Well, asking the question to "Who would you like to lynch right now?" then following up with more/less "if you say 'no one' then you're playing sub-optimally as both scum and town" reads very much like you're correlating the two ideas together, and asking someone who would they want to lynch right now at RVS when most of the players haven't said so much as "hello" and judging them negatively if they say "no one" is a ridiculous notion, and probably won't glean any AI responses when both scum and town can respond "no one" with the simple reasoning that "it's RVS". Not wanting to pressure is more related to skill level, I agree, but players can do that w/o calling for someone's lynch this early on, and that idea wasn't the one that was bothering me.

I barely understand your rebuttal here I admit.
I think you're confusing me saying 'state lynch desire' with 'lynch immediately, YOLO!' which, if you had read the links I provided or presumed I wasn't really, really bad at the game wouldn't make sense.
To clarify - yes, it is poor play if you can't express a lynch interest right now (or as early as Day 1 minute 1)
No, that is not a locked belief that you can't change (and I linked a discussion that directly explains that stance)
I think if you read me 'lynch interest' and replace it with 'apply pressure' my stance would become more clear and have less made up stances in it for you.

If you didn't like that his thought process was a fallacy, why wouldn't you call that out and strengthen your case against RCEnigma?

He openly stated it in answer to my question - I didn't call it out because I presumed people were reading and would know what his answer was and thus understand my issue, and if they didn't they would ask.

Why would you not reply to his post to something akin to "Why are you scum-reading someone based on a fallacy?" and gauge his response to your follow up?

Because I decided to apply pressure to him instead by asking for another vote on him.
I'll agree I could have done what you're asking, but why *couldn't* I do what I did? It's like asking me why didn't you eat a pizza when you ate pasta? The answer is I was hungry and wanted to solve the issue and I did so in a way different than what you would have done apparently - why does it matter?

I haven't researched your previous games, but what I've gathered from what you've posted so far is that you seem to care a lot about pressuring people and treat RVS more seriously than other players, which ftr isn't scummy in an of itself or inherently wrong, but the problem so far is that you haven't really been

pressuring him prior your recent post. You asked a question at the start of the game, but didn't asses the response to your question or even really go much in depth as to why RCE's post was scummy to begin with, and for someone who valued pressuring players so much the sheer lack of pressure against your own scum-read didn't make sense to me.

I think the issue here is desagreement on pressure style.
I would suggest that asking for more votes on someone after a scummy answer *is* pressure.
You apparently would have preferred pressure by more questions after an open admission of fallacy thinking (to which I reply, ehhhh)

I don't actually track any real scumminess from me in your answers or explanation here - appears to be, at literal worst, disagreement in how to apply pressure, yeah?

Thor, I do not believe anyone is trying to lynch you because of your playstyle: it's because of your inability to consistently and adequately apply pressure on what you claimed to be your scumread, RVCEnigma.

How have I not been consistant and adequately applying pressure?
Also, what is the theory scumcase if that is their belief, that I'm scum who is unable to pressure someone I want lynched? That he's my scumbuddy and I'm doing sloppy distancing? Neither of those make sense.

I would like Thor to answer a few of my questions: Who, if anyone, is scum in your wagon? Do you think the suspicions and overall development of arguments against you have been logical? Do you think you have mishandled your pressure on RVC?

There is absolutely scum on my wagon, I would tend to currently favor RCEnigma (who I am voting) as my top pick.
Could possibly do XWing, but I'm still scumhunting that slot. Wouldn't mind the speed wagon for lulz though.

I do not think there is much logic at all in the push on me, as this wall and my last tend to showcase. Even your theory explanation has massive holes in it. Do you think there is logic? Why even ask me this? As town or scum I, as the person the wagon is on, am going to disagree with the logic, yeah?

I don't see any issue with my pressure on RCE - can you explain any issue you see?
If you don't see one, why are you asking this question?

@thor: last night i read your L-2 beginning statement as [paraphrased] "before anyone questions me, here are the links as to why i did it.."..which on reread is wrong, so i apologize..that said, im still leaving my vote parked on you for the above logic (paragraph 1)..i would have placed it at ucvoyager because of his weird "vote" on you but i dont want to derail the current momentum..

lastly, i loathe rvs..as you said in your wiki, more info = better..so im satisfied with my vote right now..

If you agree tht you're making up things/being wrong in how you're attacking me, why are you happy with your vote on me specifically?

No one here is advocating taking it to the extreme that you mention (i.e., don’t talk or vote at all on day 1). But there also needs to be a reasonable amount of content before you can seriously start pushing someone towards a lynch and develop solid townreads and scumreads.

I agree that with more info comes more valid pushes.
The problem is it's a Catch 22 - because the info you need for people to make valid pushes is reactions to pushes.
So either you need people to make early pushes, or everyone sits around not pushing and you can't get real info.
Disagree?

Are you scumreading Reundo Thor?

No, why do you think I would be?

second paragraph last sentences, too much bravado and name calling, it just sounds like a poor sport (for me anyway, in terms of tone)..also, you cant expect people to be confident in anyone's lynch this early in the game..but as the discussion goes on, it's making me paint you in a more negative light..

What is bad about the tone exactly?
I'm actually being negative towards people who would unvote me - is that scummy somehow?

What do you like about each of their cases (I'm curious since neither actually made a case that I can spot)[/spoiler]

i'll answer this after you've posted your takes on the newer posts..do remind me to come back to this..

I am very good at reminding - consider this a reminder that I will want to see answered from the older posts.

[Thor665]

Spoiler: Messed up part of the above wall quote tags - here's a fix

Lots of stuff all about me, I'm going to try to keep it succinct but the wall is as the wall does.

In a faction 1(Town) vs faction 2(Mafia) game, faction one is more or less going to behave like faction 1 naturally. Faction 2 is going to attempt to behave like faction 1 (mostly reactively). Your specific deviations as either in past games are not necessarily applicable to THIS game. Because you can choose to play however you want.

Fair enough.
So why do you have expectations of my play you're judging me on and where do you draw them from?

Well now that I've told you, it doesnt make it a very good reason does it? But fair enough, you solved it a page in.

It may or may not make it a good reason, but it does prove that your initial point against me holds no water because there *are* scum reasons to do what you did, yeah?
Those reasons can be true or not true - but you trying to claim that there isn't a reason while admitting you can see at least one proves that your attack on me for this point is baseless, yes?
If I'm wrong on that conclusion - how am I wrong?

In the part you replied to is the answer. Maybe interact with me about it.

You admitted you had bad logic and kept your vote where it was - I see no value in further interaction.
Are you saying you were open to being *more* convinced your vote was bad and I should have done that?
Eh...

Now maybe you are absolutely certain I'm scum, which you can't be. Or you aren't voting who you truly believe to be scum. Because if you have the conviction you claim to have in that you found scum in post 1 then a mislynch is just a sacrifice you are willing to accept. Correct or am I off base? If you are making decisions already based on information you have, it leads me to believe you have more information available than the rest of us. which means, well you get the gist.

Where have I suggested absolute conviction exactly?
Sounds like you're putting words in my mouth and then calling me scummy for saying them, yeah?
Quote my expression of super conviction?

[RCEnigma]

If you're not willing to lynch NotNova (or at least claim you're willing) then what's the point of voting them exactly?

You suggested your conviction yourself. As far as fabricating stances, what I'm getting at is narrowing focus in a way that I dont feel is productive to town. Because it is in my opinion anti-town to have the playerlist focused specifically on one player rather than all of the town as a whole. I would be fine if your approach was to pressure me yourself, instead of pandering for votes, and interacting with the rest of the game to find out what X player thinks of the situation and from there links form.

Regardless I'm conflicted every time I begin to think maybe Thor is leaning town I reread your posts or a line and I think ehh maybe not. Things like your response to Xwing about Tone and your negative view of unvoters. Is that inherently scummy? Not really, but you and I know that it could be. Or could be used in a way to benefit scum. That ties back to my stance statement. The problem is that I can see angles that you can take if the set up is there and I believe you to be capable of setting them up for yourself.

[Thor665]

If you're not willing to lynch NotNova (or at least claim you're willing) then what's the point of voting them exactly?

You suggested your conviction yourself.

You have successfully shown that I'm willing to lynch who I vote.
How is that a strange or too strong level?
Are you saying you vote people you don't want to lynch?

As far as fabricating stances, what I'm getting at is narrowing focus in a way that I dont feel is productive to town. Because it is in my opinion anti-town to have the playerlist focused specifically on one player rather than all of the town as a whole. I would be fine if your approach was to pressure me yourself, instead of pandering for votes, and interacting with the rest of the game to find out what X player thinks of the situation and from there links form.

You are fine with me interacting with people as long as I don't ask them to vote someone?
What is wrong about asking someone to vote someone else exactly?
Isn't that the point of making cases and stating reads - to convince others?

Regardless I'm conflicted every time I begin to think maybe Thor is leaning town I reread your posts or a line and I think ehh maybe not. Things like your response to Xwing about Tone and your negative view of unvoters. Is that inherently scummy? Not really, but you and I know that it could be. Or could be used in a way to benefit scum. That ties back to my stance statement. The problem is that I can see angles that you can take if the set up is there and I believe you to be capable of setting them up for yourself.

That is an issue that could literally be applied to anyone in any game at any time.
That makes it not a good scumtell, no?

[RCEnigma]

1. Theres a difference between aggressive and ...apathetic isn't really the word, indifferent I guess? What you are showing (not saying) is that you are willing to lynch based on 0 information, that doesn't scream town to me.

2. I'm fine with you interacting with people however you choose, but when I see it done in a manipulative way I will voice that I see it as such.

3. Um...no. If it applies to both town and scum then no that doesn't make it a good scumtell at all.

I am saying I can see angles from your perspective, and those are the ones I'm watching. I may be scrutinizing your words and play differently based on my read but thats what I think at this point.

[NotNova]

Thor, I do not believe anyone is trying to lynch you because of your playstyle: it's because of your inability to consistently and adequately apply pressure on what you claimed to be your scumread, RVCEnigma.

How have I not been consistant and adequately applying pressure?
Also, what is the theory scumcase if that is their belief, that I'm scum who is unable to pressure someone I want lynched? That he's my scumbuddy and I'm doing sloppy distancing? Neither of those make sense.

That was the central argument as far as I could have seen. In hindsight and in light of your response, I think it was a bad one. I had a bad feeling about this wagon to begin with and your response absolutely makes sense - I believe you are more than capable of applying pressure and the reason you might not have is because of all the fire coming your way in a short timespan. Thor was aggressive as-is, anything more and I would have called OMGUS.

I would like Thor to answer a few of my questions: Who, if anyone, is scum in your wagon? Do you think the suspicions and overall development of arguments against you have been logical? Do you think you have mishandled your pressure on RVC?

I do not think there is much logic at all in the push on me, as this wall and my last tend to showcase. Even your theory explanation has massive holes in it. Do you think there is logic? Why even ask me this? As town or scum I, as the person the wagon is on, am going to disagree with the logic, yeah?

I don't see any issue with my pressure on RCE - can you explain any issue you see?
If you don't see one, why are you asking this question?

My reasoning about asking this went like this: if Thor is town, does he believe anything about his play could have led a townie to suspect him as scum? Naturally, you are going to disagree with a wagon on you, but I wanted to see your reads on members of your own wagon and potentially fallacious reasoning. You've certainly delivered in fairly detailed posts.


Looking at the wagon again, unlike RCE, I think it lost momentum over time and don't see any particular reason to suspect him. His response to accusations has been consistent and reasonable and I don't believe it is fair or accurate to judge him scummy just because of his tone. His point of view comes either from intelligent town or incredibly skillful scum. Right now, I'm more willing to believe the former than the latter. If anyone wants me to go into the minutia of it, I can, but I believe Thor's posts speak for themselves.

As far as xwing goes, I'm still most willing to say they are my scumread. Yes, they atttributed some of my concerns to playstyle difference, but I don't find their argument for staying on the wagon overly convincing, especially considering they have admitted to making a mistake. A lot of their content seems like a rehash of what other people have said, and just "wanting to see what happens" is lazy town-play at best, IMO. The townread of me at the end especially reads to me like an attempt to divert suspicion. For now, I'm going to keep my vote parked on them and would like to see if anyone else agrees with me regarding this.

The way RCE has been probing the two newbies in me and xwing still irks me somewhat. He might be trying to gather reads on us as town or trying to find something problematic enough to turn it into an issue as scum, but either way, it makes me uncomfortable.

Reundo's overall case against Thor seems to be the most grounded in logic and genuine suspicion, so I believe him to be the least likely scum on the wagon. Being the first non-RVS vote doesn't detract from that. Still, would like to see them post more before I make up my mind.

Volxen mostly posted about theory, but the attempt to question others reads as genuine townhunting. Null-to-town for now.

Pedit to RCE's response: 1. and 2. again seems like a theory/playstyle concern with nothing particularly alignment-indicative and 3. is just an admission of subpar reasoning. Overall doesn't change my view of the wagon right now.

[RCEnigma]

It could be a playstyle descrepancy and I'm mindful of that.

To add on to your post I could have easily pushed this onto Xwing, I pointed out it was slightly scummy joining the wagon and I agree most of xwings points have been stated by others previously.

I did want to see who pressed it. I'm not ready to flip a lynch there however. There's still a lot we haven't seen or heard from.

Fwiw I do like some of Thors defense and I've responded to what I have issue with. We also agree on some points but those aren't really alignment indicative.

Nova I don't believe his points would be any more or less logical and town or scum considering he is defending himself here and scumreading me is a given since he needs to stand his ground to survive.

[RCEnigma]

Nova do you think both Scum are on this wagon at the moment?

[Reundo]

Do you really think people are suspecting you because of this? For me personally, I can say that I'm definately not voting you solely based on that -- that's hardly a driving factor for me at all, in fact.

I kind of do - people are assuredly talking about it a lot if they don't have an issue with it.
Of course, they aren't actually really describing their issues with me, so that is hurting my assessment

I think people are very much describing their issues with you. I didn't like your lack of follow up with RCE, RCE himself didn't like how you were talking around him and directly to him and felt it was manipulative -- I think xwing was the only one who took direct issue with your "L-2" post, and agree/disagree with other player's reasoning it's pretty apparent the cases against you were more than "people don't like me putting RCE at L-2", even from the onset.

I agree that putting pressure on a player is a good way to glean reactions, but you can do that without wanting them lynched ASAP. It sounded like you thought that someone voted for a player meant they want that player lynched, so it seemed like you did disagree with my theory. Can you tell me what parts you agree with then, because I'm kind of confused tbh.

I have implied (and do believe) that voting a player shows you want to lynch them. I don't support voting players you aren't willing to lynch (or at least will go to your death claiming as such) because otherwise there's no reason or point in voting them.
Please quote me saying anyone should be lynched ASAP - you are making up that belief and applying it to me. If I had said that I would at least somewhat understand your issue with me.

The point I was making was that voting someone to be lynched this early on is a bit ridiculous, but I guess that's just a difference of opinion so I won't harp too much on that. And as far as you saying "anyone should be lynched ASAP"...

Who would you like to lynch

right now?

I don't think equating "right now" with "ASAP" is really that much of a stretch. I interpreted this as you asking volxen "if you can end the day right now with a lynch who would it be?", which would make the answer "no one" even more viable considering its far too early to end the day when we have so much time left for discussion. It seems now that this isn't what you meant, but that's not what I originally took it as.

If you didn't like that his thought process was a fallacy, why wouldn't you call that out and strengthen your case against RCEnigma?

He openly stated it in answer to my question - I didn't call it out because I presumed people were reading and would know what his answer was and thus understand my issue, and if they didn't they would ask.

Except that RCEnigma calling his own response a fallacy clearly read off as a joke to me -- I'm actually struggling to find a serious interpretation to his answer. By that logic, you also didn't have to call out RCE's initial post, since it's obvious scum-reading someone for having a good town game is a petty case. If his response did ping you, I'd think it would be more natural as town to call out his response as a fallacy regardless instead of just assuming everyone has the same mindset as you -- town imo generally don't think about the latter that much at all in fact.

Why would you not reply to his post to something akin to "Why are you scum-reading someone based on a fallacy?" and gauge his response to your follow up?

Because I decided to apply pressure to him instead by asking for another vote on him.
I'll agree I could have done what you're asking, but why *couldn't* I do what I did? It's like asking me why didn't you eat a pizza when you ate pasta? The answer is I was hungry and wanted to solve the issue and I did so in a way different than what you would have done apparently - why does it matter?

The problem is that it's a pretty indirect way of applying pressure, and I'd think it'd be more town motivated to engage with RCEnigma directly and build up your case against him instead of merely asking people to vote for him when the case against him wasn't that strong to begin with -- in fact, stating it in the way you did almost ruins the reaction test you seemed to be going for. Of course, it's entirely possible for you as town to not follow up with RCEnigma, but imo as town it would make sense to follow up to something that pings you instead of holding back because it's scumminess is "obvious".

I haven't researched your previous games, but what I've gathered from what you've posted so far is that you seem to care a lot about pressuring people and treat RVS more seriously than other players, which ftr isn't scummy in an of itself or inherently wrong, but the problem so far is that you haven't really been pressuring him prior your recent post. You asked a question at the start of the game, but didn't asses the response to your question or even really go much in depth as to why RCE's post was scummy to begin with, and for someone who valued pressuring players so much the sheer lack of pressure against your own scum-read didn't make sense to me.

I think the issue here is desagreement on pressure style.
I would suggest that asking for more votes on someone after a scummy answer *is* pressure.
You apparently would have preferred pressure by more questions after an open admission of fallacy thinking (to which I reply, ehhhh)

I don't actually track any real scumminess from me in your answers or explanation here - appears to be, at literal worst, disagreement in how to apply pressure, yeah?

The thing though is that I don't think you've made your thought process very clear. It wasn't apparent at all that you asked for more votes on RCEnigma because you thought his answer was scummy -- to me, it just looked like you completely ignored his response and pushed forward with wagoning RCE w/o considering if his response was actually scummy or not. In fact, what would be the scum motive in RCE admitting his own logic was fueled by a fallacy anyhow? Not saying it can't be done of course, but it certainly isn't an "obvious" response from scum. The main crux behind my original case was that I couldn't see the town-motivation behind not following up with RCE's post if you did find it scummy regardless of how "obvious" it was to you. I'd say pressuring someone by asking more votes on them is more scum-orientated than engaging with RCE directly and letting people make up their own minds on the matter -- the latter opens yourself up to criticism, strengthens your case on RCE, and allows more natural responses to your reaction test of seeing who jumps on the wagon, defends him, etc. As of what's been happening recently, I didn't like how in your original wall response a lot of your responses didn't relate directly to the questions I asked, and I also don't see much town motivation in trying to minimize the case against you by claiming players "aren't actually really describing their issues with me" when they very clearly are.

[Reundo]

That was the central argument as far as I could have seen. In hindsight and in light of your response, I think it was a bad one. I had a bad feeling about this wagon to begin with and your response absolutely makes sense - I believe you are more than capable of applying pressure and the reason you might not have is because of all the fire coming your way in a short timespan. Thor was aggressive as-is, anything more and I would have called OMGUS.

How come you feel he can't deal with all the fire coming at him while also applying pressure at the same time? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the last statement, especially considering Thor was the one to vote RCEnigma first.

Looking at the wagon again, unlike RCE, I think it lost momentum over time and don't see any particular reason to suspect him. His response to accusations has been consistent and reasonable and I don't believe it is fair or accurate to judge him scummy just because of his tone. His point of view comes either from intelligent town or incredibly skillful scum. Right now, I'm more willing to believe the former than the latter. If anyone wants me to go into the minutia of it, I can, but I believe Thor's posts speak for themselves.

Considering UCVoyager referred to him as "one of the best scum players on site", I feel you should be giving the "incredibly skillful scum" side a bit more thought. Thor doesn't come off as obvtown to me as all, so I'd like a bit more elaboration on your town read of him.

The way RCE has been probing the two newbies in me and xwing still irks me somewhat. He might be trying to gather reads on us as town or trying to find something problematic enough to turn it into an issue as scum, but either way, it makes me uncomfortable.

You can theoretically say anything can come from town and scum -- which one are you leaning towards? Also, why is RCE probing newbies such a problem in the first place? It's not like he could probe the SEs since they haven't posted much at all, so would you have preferred him acting as a sitting duck?


As far as reads go, I'm kind of in the same boat as RCE in that I'm wary of his potential to be good as scum as well, but I don't really have any reason to suspect him right now. Xwing's entrance rings similar to the last game I played with them where we were both town, but I do understand where NotNova is coming from regarding his scum read of xwing, even if I don't exactly agree with it myself. I like volxen's interactions with Thor, but @volxen, I'm not really sure where you lean regarding him -- do you read him more as scum or town? Regarding Thor himself, the best case I can make for him being town is that the wagon on him did build up pretty quickly w/o much resistance at all and I do have a few minor town pings from him, but I don't really have much issues with other players thus far so I'm pretty content with my vote. I will say though that if he is town there is almost certainly scum within {horror, wind, UC} for basically letting this wagon take its course w/o providing any input of their own, and even if he is scum I'm still wary of the lurkers.

@Mod, I'm pretty sure horrordude0215 needs a prod.

[NotNova]

I find that unlikely. I'd expect distancing rather than a coordinated lynchmob this early in the game. The only reason I can see for scum to push for a lynch is fear from Thor's towngame, something I'm not willing to discount just yet. With a few players we haven't heard from much still being here (Voyager, horrordude) it's statistically unlikely, but the possibility is there.

As far as my view of Thor's defense, I understand he has to defend himself — that's a given. The point was that his rebuttals of suspicions against him have convinced me for the most part. I do not scumread him as of right now, so I'm choosing to look elsewhere and explore possibilities.

Pedit: Just saw Reundo's post, will give it a response in a second.

[RCEnigma]

I will say though that if he is town there is almost certainly scum within {horror, wind, UC} for basically letting this wagon take its course w/o providing any input of their own, and even if he is scum I'm still wary of the lurkers.

This is where I was going with my question to Nova. It also follows my poe if I take Thor out of the equation as scum and assume there is at least one on this wagon at the moment. Which would be horror or xwing mostly from poe itself since I'm townleaning volxen, Reundo, and Nova.

[NotNova]

That was the central argument as far as I could have seen. In hindsight and in light of your response, I think it was a bad one. I had a bad feeling about this wagon to begin with and your response absolutely makes sense - I believe you are more than capable of applying pressure and the reason you might not have is because of all the fire coming your way in a short timespan. Thor was aggressive as-is, anything more and I would have called OMGUS.

How come you feel he can't deal with all the fire coming at him while also applying pressure at the same time? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by the last statement, especially considering Thor was the one to vote RCEnigma first.

You are correct in that Thor voted Enigma first, that was a mistake on my part, I should have worded better. My point was that it is natural for anyone who is put on the defensive to focus on giving their defense first and Thor was admittedly swamped with questions - just look at the length of his walls, I don't think you can be expected to put too much time in reading people if you have to respond to all that first. If anything, I find it's slightly more likely for scum!Thor to divert suspicion by emphasizing Thor vs RVC more, but this would likely come off as tunelly, so I won't stand by this point strongly.

Looking at the wagon again, unlike RCE, I think it lost momentum over time and don't see any particular reason to suspect him. His response to accusations has been consistent and reasonable and I don't believe it is fair or accurate to judge him scummy just because of his tone. His point of view comes either from intelligent town or incredibly skillful scum. Right now, I'm more willing to believe the former than the latter. If anyone wants me to go into the minutia of it, I can, but I believe Thor's posts speak for themselves.

Considering UCVoyager referred to him as "one of the best scum players on site", I feel you should be giving the "incredibly skillful scum" side a bit more thought. Thor doesn't come off as obvtown to me as all, so I'd like a bit more elaboration on your town read of him.

As I've stated above, I think Thor has a relieving circumstance given that his case has been the primary topic since the game has started. As far as useful reads or hunting from him goes, I don't think he's done anything particularly outstanding, far from obvtown. To me, the possibility of "xwing is scum trying to cozy up and repeat the arguments of two capable players" has been more convincing than the wagon's case on Thor, in light of his response to suspicions against him being sound. Less of a "Thor is definitely not scum" than "I think xwing is likely to be scum". If anything more interesting or suspicious comes from Thor, I'm willing to lend an ear, for now I just don't buy it.

The way RCE has been probing the two newbies in me and xwing still irks me somewhat. He might be trying to gather reads on us as town or trying to find something problematic enough to turn it into an issue as scum, but either way, it makes me uncomfortable.

You can theoretically say anything can come from town and scum -- which one are you leaning towards? Also, why is RCE probing newbies such a problem in the first place? It's not like he could probe the SEs since they haven't posted much at all, so would you have preferred him acting as a sitting duck?

It was more to the effect of "I am finding RCE difficult to read" than me trying to be ambiguous, figured I would point that out for transparency and see if I can get second opinions. I am not willing to say it's scummy, it's a justified method in sorting. Something about the way it was done struck me as odd, but this could easily be a product of slight offense on my part, so I am willing to acknowledge bias.

[RCEnigma]

It was more to the effect of "I am finding RCE difficult to read" than me trying to be ambiguous, figured I would point that out for transparency and see if I can get second opinions. I am not willing to say it's scummy, it's a justified method in sorting. Something about the way it was done struck me as odd, but this could easily be a product of slight offense on my part, so I am willing to acknowledge bias.

Is it specifically the original question I posed for a reaction? I think for a new player your line of thinking is incredibly clear in the sense it's easy to follow. It also seemed like you weren't confused as to what you were looking for in a Scum vs Town sense. It led me to believe you've played before which clearly changes how I need to evaluate your slot. Compared to say a brand new player that only has say, EpicMafia experience. Or on the other end no experience at all.

[MarioManiac4]

Votecount 1.2

Thor665 (4) - horrordude0215, Reundo, RCEnigma, xwing
NotNova (1) - volxen
RCEnigma (1) - Thor665
xwing (1) - NotNova

Not Voting (2) - StandingWind, UC Voyager

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is in (expired on 2018-09-18 02:50:39).

[MarioManiac4]

Prodding horrordude0215. They have (expired on 2018-09-11 13:02:57) to post or they will be replaced.

[NotNova]

I specifically meant the original "rolling scum is unlucky" and this:

Well, you're town you mind putting yourself in my pocket today? I can wait till tomorrow but that would be the cutoff.

The first time around I got over it pretty quickly, but the exchange following this post was just... strange? I honestly couldn't give any rational reasons for feeling that way. I just honestly couldn't understand the thought process of this as a probing question, but the more I think about it, it seems it was just null.



As far as the question regarding experience goes, it makes complete sense why you would ask that, nothing to complain about there.

[NotNova]

@Mod, there are 10 votes there with 9 players alive.

volxen is simultaneously voting for me and not voting.

Also, @volxen, I would love to hear your thoughts on the wagon and what your read of everyone so far is.

[MarioManiac4]

fixed, sorry.

[horrordude0215]

Prod received, sorry all, just phone posting right now. Haven't had time to catch up reading, will have time later today or tomorrow at the latest.

@Mod and all, for future reference I'm usually V/LA on Sundays and Mondays

[Thor665]

1. Theres a difference between aggressive and ...apathetic isn't really the word, indifferent I guess? What you are showing (not saying) is that you are willing to lynch based on 0 information, that doesn't scream town to me.

2. I'm fine with you interacting with people however you choose, but when I see it done in a manipulative way I will voice that I see it as such.

3. Um...no. If it applies to both town and scum then no that doesn't make it a good scumtell at all.

I am saying I can see angles from your perspective, and those are the ones I'm watching. I may be scrutinizing your words and play differently based on my read but thats what I think at this point.

1. How am I showing this in a way indicative of me being scum exactly? I understand this is an issue - you keep repeating it, what I'm curious about is why you think a scum would do it more often than a town via these "showing its" I've done.

2. You're changing the goalpost here methinks - how was I being manipulative? I was pretty clear about my intentions, and didn't actually try to drown them in reasoning but directly asked if they would or wouldn't do something - where's the manipulation?

3. Well, just to point this out to people (because some people seem to think it's scummy when I just find this scummy ) you are AGAIN admitting to using fallacious arguments *without changing what you're doing*.

Why should I not find that VERY scummy exactly?
Because I find that VERY scummy.

[RCEnigma]

1. Theres a difference between aggressive and ...apathetic isn't really the word, indifferent I guess? What you are showing (not saying) is that you are willing to lynch based on 0 information, that doesn't scream town to me.

2. I'm fine with you interacting with people however you choose, but when I see it done in a manipulative way I will voice that I see it as such.

3. Um...no. If it applies to both town and scum then no that doesn't make it a good scumtell at all.

I am saying I can see angles from your perspective, and those are the ones I'm watching. I may be scrutinizing your words and play differently based on my read but thats what I think at this point.

1. How am I showing this in a way indicative of me being scum exactly? I understand this is an issue - you keep repeating it, what I'm curious about is why you think a scum would do it more often than a town via these "showing its" I've done.

2. You're changing the goalpost here methinks - how was I being manipulative? I was pretty clear about my intentions, and didn't actually try to drown them in reasoning but directly asked if they would or wouldn't do something - where's the manipulation?

3. Well, just to point this out to people (because some people seem to think it's scummy when I just find this scummy ) you are AGAIN admitting to using fallacious arguments *without changing what you're doing*.

Why should I not find that VERY scummy exactly?
Because I find that VERY scummy.

Because scum doesn't need information to be fine with a lynch? I'm not really getting your angle here, thats kind of self evident.

A few things jump out like goading the vote onto me to push specifically YOUR agenda, its not a stretch to view that as Personal gain > Town gain. Also as I've stated elsewhere, the issue around fearing or not fearing players as scum. It should, in my opinion be an IC tone to address that but it felt more like pushing Voyager away from that line of thinking because it isn't optimal to YOU.

I also fail to see how that point is fallacious, thats a bit of a stretch. Scum is capable of anything town is capable of and vice versa, so should you disregard any scum reads because town could also do the same as scum in a certain situation. Or disregard townreads for the same reason?

Regardless that isn't the point. I was responding to:

I'm actually being negative towards people who would unvote me - is that scummy somehow?

This is a loaded question since yes it absolutely can be. It feels like you aren't taking context into account at all. If the answer to your question is yes and no simultaneously then there isn't really a reason to ask it in the first place.