micro 816-I: spaam (normal game) (gambe over)

[Irrelephant11]

Retract RC/FL scumteam I just find it odd they're fighting so hard and not voting for each other
But the RC claim makes me townread him

[Irrelephant11]

RC even helped defend Gemeni earlier by saying the only person gemeni could be scum with is me. If RC is to think i am scum, there isn’t by no means any reason they should be giving Gemeni a pass right now.

Do you usually use bad logic as town orrr
"Gemini's only realistic partner is Flavor"
"Flavor is scummy and has multiple partner options, the most likely of which is tw"
does NOT logically suggest RC should be voting Gemini

> makes zero sorting effort but treats me like I'm town all game
> partner who can't read me to save himself scumreads me
> still doesn't engage with me



I'm exhausted by this. if you're actually town after this bullshit like ircher was I think I'm gonna try and wind up my games and take a break.

This AtE is sad, tw. Come onnn provide like real analysis and thoughts
makes it more fun, especially if you're scum!

I'm currently at L-1 and the fact that no one mentioned that is scummy, also TW hopping on feels opportunistic.

You’ve literally been on L-1 for 2 posts at that point.

It’s not like being at L-1 matters too much here. We’re all aware of who’s voting who.

Then why did you ask me to unvote you?

Also, I’ll play RC’s bluff.

Here’s the deal, y’all.

Lynch Gemeni today, if RC dies tonight, even when Gemeni flips scum, lynch me.

That won’t happen because RC isn’t town. He can’t be killed off.

I’ll play that bluff real hard

This is dumb. Scum!you can mislynch gemini and then leave RC alive as the mislynch
Might not be good play but if you think the rest of us are dumb enough (and you might) this could maybe work in your mind, so obvs not going to agree to this

@Gamma - I really need your help on this one...please Unvote TW, at least for the time being. Have a pseudo vote there if you must.

The only other vote on tw at this point was gemini, who you say you're scumreading. What's the fear? That a scum and a townie will coordinate a quickhammer? Sounds like you townread gemini

[Irrelephant11]

You and RC? That's new. What changed your mind?


pedit: "reachy" how?

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah no crap RC is town
If you're scum with tw you just told him to say that with you so you can get RC off your back


great

sure, let's do this for a bit. RC is town. Assume you and I are both town (for discussion's sake). Who's scum?

[Irrelephant11]

annoyed because now it feels like RC/FL might actually be the team and that's why he has to turn it back on me
But that would be really upsetting setup-wise
If RC agrees it was tvt then I'd consider everyone just sheeping the two of them
But they'd need to 100% agree to being BoP'd.

Also, RC said i should prioritize a lynch on him not Gemeni. I was doing that. As soon as I saw RC as scum, I went after him. So that is a misrep right there.

Lynching Gemeni increases the chances of lynching RC next. It makes no sense as scum to go after Gemeni here, because if Gemeni were to flip town, I’m fucked.

That objectively clears me as town.

This isn't the worst argument I've heard for you being town, actually.
Definitely not an "objective clear", though, especially depending on where your vote ultimately ends up. I'm well aware both scum!you and scum!RC are capable of going to great theater lengths.

YOU DONT WALL CASE ME EVER WHEN YOURE TOWN!!!!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

I don’t even care anymore. Lynch me for all it matters. I caught out ScumRC. That’s a personal win in my book.

@Gamma/Irrelephant - hammer Gemeni for me, will ya? It’s gonna prove me right. If you think Gemeni will flip town, meh, just see it as it confirms me as scum in that case.

I guarantee you I’m right with the scum team at this point.

Why isn't your "I caught out ScumRC" followed by a vote on RC?

Also, RC said i should prioritize a lynch on him not Gemeni. I was doing that. As soon as I saw RC as scum, I went after him. So that is a misrep right there.

Lynching Gemeni increases the chances of lynching RC next. It makes no sense as scum to go after Gemeni here, because if Gemeni were to flip town, I’m fucked.

That objectively clears me as town.

what else are you supposed to do? you're fucked, your best play is to lynch gemini nightkill me and say whoops I was wrong and go back and try to get the irrelephant lynch.
you know what objectively clears me as town? the fact that I'm an enabler to a restricted watcher.
the idea that scum would be informed about an already limited watcher is meme tier and schadd has shown no indication that he uses roles like watcher.

but you know that you're never going to get my lynch through that and you're not trying to because you

don't have to.

Agree that informed would be OP and if it's true that schadd doesn't usually use Watcher then RC would neve think to fakeclaim
If I have time later maybe I'll double check some of schadd's setups but I'm inclined to just agree

Like honestly, I don’t make it out of this game if I was scum. And as town, this is likely my last day anyways, so let’s at least hit ScumGemeni, and you guys can figure out a way to deal with ScumRC tomorrow.

If you're town at this point it seems like you'd know that your best play is to get rid of RC while you're still around
Just because of the pure posting force you each have it'd be a cop-out here from town!you to settle for a gemini lynch when convinced of scum!RC
Makes me think you don't believe your own reads at this point (which I've thought all game day but this def adds to that)

You’re not a town enabler. You’re coasting off your fake claim.

since when do I coast off of fake claims? since when do I not have the follow through to close out games? since when do I let myself get tied to buddies when I'm basically confirmed town?

You aren’t confirmed town. I’m conftown! Objectively.

You’re just WIFOM’ing and ignoring the fact that that was easily a ploy to get you towncred for the game, and now you’re getting caught out.

Bolded is just not true no matter how many times you say it

"easily a ploy to get you towncred for the game"

how did I know the watcher existed unless I'm an enabler and why does schadd give scum an enabler to a town restricted watcher?
you're trying to act like me getting this role is something that I consciously did.

Gamma already explained this. Informed role, or you’re a Scum Enabler.

I’m leaning towards the Informed, though. It was a good scum play, I’ll give it that.

I brought this up but whatever
If you've got a role that would explain how this isn't too strong of a fakeclaim for scum to have, feel free to claim. Otherwise this just seems like a disingenuous push from the start
Especially given

I'd already said all this

and you

ignored me

I see a future where you go oh I wouldn't have killed RC after saying that I should be lynched after he dies, the rest of the town nods along reluctantly and mutant throws down another gamethrow vote tomorrow.

Gamma already explained this. Informed role, or you’re a Scum Enabler.

I’m leaning towards the Informed, though. It was a good scum play, I’ll give it that.

you can't rationalize the existence of an informed role on scum telling them about an odd night watcher.

What correlation does any of that have to the mod putting an informed role which are almost unheard of in normals?

I will say though that informed was part of the recent Normal Games Whitelist additions, so it's going to show up more than in the past (when it was Grey Listed I think?)

[Irrelephant11]

What correlation does any of that have to the mod putting an informed role which are almost unheard of in normals?

Unheard of? Nah. I’ve played a couple. But regardless, the more you get hung up on that one specific thing, the more you are subtly moving away. Sure, that could be a ridiculous thing that’s being said with the Informed, and you’re choosing to get hung up on that, and ignoring the Scum watcher Enabler comment because you feel that’s your best chance at discrediting.

You’re scum objectively as well.

You knew very well Ircher’s playstyle and chose to hard push it. You asked “why would he fake claim then take it back?”

Even though you’ve seen players like me do that multiple times as town.

You are faking thought processes this entire game

If you've done that as town before, why did you vote him? Genuine question

@Irrelephant - I don’t know what to say to you. Unfortunately, I see you as town who’s just incorrect in their reads, and I’m trying to help you see that. You helped me see that I was wrong earlier. I feel like I’m highlighting a lot of RC’s scummy objectiveness. I feel that I’ve shown why from my POV that Gemeni/RC is the team, and this is after taking all of the other pushes into account. We worked those pushes a lot, and this is where it comes down what I talked about earlier about how I’m wrong until I’m not.

My strongest bit as town is my ability to solidly town a good group of people after a while. I rarely am hardcore duped, and when I am, damn, I deserve it. Only ScumGamma here would give that feeling, and I don’t see Gamma as scum AT ALL.

I approve of your scum reach out

yeah was good
I still kinda want to work with him tbh
Like I scumread him but wish I townread him because it would be easier & more fun, if that makes sense

If I’m ever scum against you, I’ll journal it in a scum pt when I start to do it to you

I believe it. For a second this was a reason to townread, but it might also just mean he's doing this now

That's what I do as scum too boon

you systematically try to get control of everyone's votes as an individual
but you're being, in my opinion, excessively brazen about it.

I'm sure, if it helps, it works most of the time? but again, it's about those last few games.

This is a reason to townread, though. Do you think scum!FL is so brazen about it? As I read it I was like "wow so obvscum" which based on his self-analysis of scum gameplay is pretty poor
Even your analysis of his gameplay is like "come on if you're scum play better" which does kind of feel like a towncase
I just really don't know who I'm supposed to lynch if FL is town and right about tw, though.
@FL how strong is your townread on tw?

[Irrelephant11]

lol hi Gamma

[Irrelephant11]

You did? I didn't notice
Actually skimming your ISO I still don't see this?

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Irrelephant11]

mm UNVOTE:
need to look at something

[Irrelephant11]

I actually can't find this

[Irrelephant11]

nvm found it

eh still interested to see his answer here

[Irrelephant11]

FL's 1234 got me thinking.

RC claimed watcher enabler. The scum team would know RC had no reason to lie about his role if he was town. They'd also know that killing him would nullify the watcher (which they now know exists). Additionally, RC (from my understanding of his reputation) is a good player.

Why is RC still alive?

They'd have to have had real confidence that prof fridays was the watcher in order to kill him instead of RC.

Yeah I've thought about this
I couldn't find anything on re-read to suggest the professor was watcher
But it makes sense that scum might know RC is definitely getting protected after his claim

[Irrelephant11]

Irrelephant how did any of this make you start thinking me/FL was svs?

FL scum sure but where did the doubt on my slot come from?

paranoia about you both arguing a lot and having your votes elsewhere

[Irrelephant11]

Can we refrain from hammering in general for a good little while, this entire thread needs a reread and I won't be back home until later on to provide thoughts.

if this is about hammering you I don't think any of us three possible hammer-ers want you lynched atm so you're fine
Kinda interesting that that's true, though.

Like I guess I find it weird that two scum (FL & tw in my head rn) would bring a slot to L-1 if it didn't have the support from town? Maybe if they're just really hoping the support will come if they push enough
On the other hand I'd have to scumread you, Gamma, or RC to explain it any other way and you're my three highest townreads
Oh, or maybe if there isn't a townslot with enough mislynch support?
-Me: no
-RC: no
-Gamma: No
-mutant: No
-Gemini: okay now I get why this is the wagon

I'll keep thinking this over, though

@RC

pedit: yeah 'cause you actually want FL lynched
I think

[Irrelephant11]

Oops I meant to write "@RC has your read of Flavor changed at all?"

[Irrelephant11]

Nah I'll have more paranoia flashes than I otherwise would prolly but if you're scum I'll just be mad at either schadd for bad setup or whoever's role would be effectively a cc to you for not cc'ing. Until a pr claim happens that changes my idea of the setup you're just town

esp. because I'm also flip flopping on FL

[Irrelephant11]

If you think mutant is scum you think he faked not knowing Prof was watcher
possible intentional "townslip" but it felt genuine at the time

[Irrelephant11]

You realize the watcher would watch the watcher enabler right

Not necessarily. I wouldn't. Why would the mafia use someone they just claimed didn't have any night abilities to perform the kill? There's nothing you could do if they were caught doing it. In my opinion, I think prof fridays would be more likely to watch someone they scum read. Besides, since this game doesn't show role cards, for all we know prof could have known there was an enabler to his role.

I don't think you understand the watcher role
The only way to get a guilty as a watcher is to "watch" the nightkill target - your results are then anyone who targeted that player, and if you only get the one name, you get a guilty on that player. If you watch someone on the scumteam, your only results will be other town PRs who happened to also target scum with whatever ability.
i.e. Yes, watcher is very likely to watch the only claimed PR, since that's scum's most likely kill, and therefore the best way to get a guilty

[Irrelephant11]

Retract RC/FL scumteam I just find it odd they're fighting so hard and not voting for each other
But the RC claim makes me townread him

they do this every time regardless of alignment, don't read too much into the associatives of it.

that's a bullshit reason to townread someone who's competent scum btw

I mean if you have any examples of RC successfully fake claiming something confirmable that later *just happened* to get confirmed
or alternatively any examples of micros with scum enablers for gated town roles
or your role card that says "rolecop" or something similar that could counteract this strong fakeclaim
Then please do share

Otherwise it doesn't matter how good RC is at scum the claim makes him town

[Irrelephant11]

ehhhhh I don't think he's as scummy as tw, for one
And mostly I've townread him more than I've townread FL
I don't think he's the lynch?
But he's also white knighted me from FL a couple times which makes me wonder if I've been pocketed

how likely do you see mutant/flavor?

[Irrelephant11]

oh shoot is it mutant/gamma?
Would explain FL/tw townreading each other
RC/me/Gemini townreading each other and starting to townread FL
mutant's reluctance to take a side on various arguments (leave town in the trenches fighting each other)
Ircher/Prof Fridays' D1 scumread of Gamma
My D1 scumread of Mutant
Mutant's ability to point to his own posts this game day and say "it's all very consistent and you can track my thoughts very clearly, see?"
Gamma's subtle defenses of mutant a couple times this game day

waaaaaaiiiittttt lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll this is how FL started the day

pedit: we've come full circle
pedit2: yeah that's also pretty likely. I just don't remember why it's not Gamma anymore
pedit3: I don't understand that last sentence

[Irrelephant11]

Man, I don’t fucking know who’s scum

Schadd’s trolling me, and I’m the only townie left here. -.-

this is true and I had a lot of fun

gg all

let's do it again sometime

[Irrelephant11]

can you do a quick summary of your scumread of gemini?
@mutant

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: the worst

[Irrelephant11]

[Irrelephant11]

<3 u ewo

If you look at "ewo" a certain way it kind of looks like a duck with one eye open, one eye partially winking, and an open beak
so there is that

[Irrelephant11]

Is mutant at L-1?
Intent to vote there at some point

[Irrelephant11]

Still slightly prefer tw though for the record

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah true
I’m just not gonna enjoy the collective paranoia tomorrow if it’s FL/tw and you’re gone

[Irrelephant11]

Paranoia from which I am never immune

[Irrelephant11]

I'm not sure mass claiming would get guilties? There's multiple kinds of PRs that stop kills without getting a guilty, like the way a bodyguard or doctor's target is *most probably* town
Maybe a soft *something AI* if we claimed
Plus then we have the claimant to deal with

I want to talk more for now about the lynch
Why did it end up being tw? What does that say?

[Irrelephant11]

I agree that both scum were likely on wagon

[Irrelephant11]

I mean I still don't see RC making the PR claim as scum
Scum RC could just kill townly-read Gamma and say "well I was still the most likely to get protected" or whatever
I guess since it's mylo it would also be a good move to no kill
But not very good for most scumteams here: RC/FL/Gamma seem capable and familiar enough with each other to catch each other out, so if any of them (or two of them) are scum I'd think one of those three would die
If it's mutant/Gamma I'd think an RC/FL NK would happen to remove town's most confident game solvers

[Irrelephant11]

I agree that both scum were likely on wagon

Like, it’s odd, but I’m actually leaning towards Gemeni and Mutant. Why would they conform together?

Same but wow agreeing with you sends off alarm bells in my brainnnn

[Irrelephant11]

I don't know what you're getting at

[Irrelephant11]

mutant being willing to place intent to hammer on my slot D2 after hard townreading me to open the day is scummy
mutant voting with gemini after repeatedly trying to get a lynch on gemini is scummy
atm I just have FL/mutant/gemini as the most likely teams in a circle and idk which is mislynch

It's sending alarms because you're the other possible scum and I'm nervous about agreeing with you on anything
but you're right that in a strictly logical sense it should be

[Irrelephant11]

Well I'm like 60% on that and 20% on teams that include you and one of them
Feel free to teamcase

[Irrelephant11]

also after thinking about it massclaim is bad for town in the situation where an unclaimed PR allows for mylo to be mmaylo (mislynch &

maybe

lose)

[Irrelephant11]

@mutant who is gemini's partner here?

[Irrelephant11]

How would mamylo mean that it's bad for PRs to claim? The only scenario that could be bad for is if our only other PR is a protective. For every other PR, knowing everyone's roles would help to guide their own.

I mean, the only way it's mmaylo is if there's a protective. So that was kinda my point?
Also protectives can provide soft innos when there's no kill, like I already said

[Irrelephant11]

Tbh, I have no idea who could be scum besides Gemini. However, I get the feeling that it definitely has to be either Irrelephant or FL based on everyone else's reads.

I thought it was weird you said "as long as you lynch gemini first" to FL, since fmpov FL would then be the partner, but if you're reading me as gemini's partner I guess it makes sense?
If gemini's scum her partner seems to be bussing rn so that's... something. idk what yet (this is assuming RC and FL are both right that they would be able to catch scum!Gamma, which is kind of the main reason why I feel comfortable locktowning Gamma)

[Irrelephant11]

I townread most of the rest of the players

[Irrelephant11]

Also I apparently had some specific points I thought were associational last game day because I had them listed as "pretty likely" in comparison to other teams "likely" or "unlikely". After tw's flip it's the only "pretty likely" left
I just... forgot to write down what points made me feel this way

[Irrelephant11]

not yet no

[Irrelephant11]

honestly kinda just waiting for you to do that

[Irrelephant11]

but let me know if I have to, I guess

[Irrelephant11]

I know those roles exist? I'm just saying that if there's a protective, then that's the situation massclaim is maybe bad. Not really sure why you're arguing with me about that by saying "well there may or may not be a protective"??

[Irrelephant11]

Okay this is what we're doing

If you are a PROTECTIVE role (doc or variant) and you targeted anyone besides me you are claiming with your target
if you are a STOPPING role (roleblocker or variant) and you targeted anyone besides MutantDevle you are claiming with your target
If you are jailkeeper who targeted anyone besides me you should claim since it's almost certainly a roleblock

If none of the above conditions are true, you just say pass

pass obviously

pass

Like honestly, I’m the scummiest one here, and the fact more people aren’t pushing me is making me nervous as well.

In hindsight and from scum POV, I feel I’m incredibly obvtown, but I don’t expect players who are town to see that.

I don't agree that you're the scummiest here. That's clearly Gemini. I'd actually go as far to say that you're one of the towniest players here but there's just a nagging thing about you that gives me, and I assume others, doubt that you may actually be really strong scum.

The more I read your posts, however, the more I like what you say. You've inspired a lot of my thought processes this game, primarily the one that resulted in me scum reading Gemini. I'd be comfortable fully trusting you if it wasn't for the fact that I really don't know who Gemini's partner is. I'm not at all interested in voting you any time soon though so I doubt you'll be the game losing mislynch.

@mutant I'd like to see you put in work to identify gemini's partner. gemini can't be solo scum and even if you're unsure who the partner is, putting in that work should reveal more to you about gemini's alignment, which can only be helpful for knowing you're pushing the right lynch and helping others see that

@Irrelephant - I think we have the exact same read on each other, and we’re both just waiting to decide what RC feels like pushing because we’ve plataeu’d and don’t know how to go about doing something so we’re just kinda hoping RC hits scum.

I honestly don't know why y'all gamble on RC this much. This reliance on him to hit right is unhealthy and a complete gamble. From my PoV, it's such a terrible idea. He was wrong about Ircher, I know he's wrong about me, and I strongly believe he is/was (not sure if he is still defending Gemini) wrong to defend Gemini yesterday - who should have been the lynch then. I don't see anything to suggest that RC knows what he is doing. Overconfidence doesn't mean he's always going to be right.

I don't think you and irrel should be at each other's throats, but I don't think that the only reason you shouldn't be is that RC doesn't think you should. If RC agrees with your opinions, then you can take that as a sign that you're right. But don't assume you're wrong if he doesn't.

This is a pretty good AtE to not sheep RC. Honestly if RC is scum here I've been outplayed. From what I understand that happens to many players who play against scum!RC, so I won't feel bad. If you're not scumreading RC though I'm not sure why I shouldn't sheep him - he's the conftowniest player rn.

Overall conclusion: I know my own alignment, I town read irrelephant and Gamma. Hence the only person I don't think is town who is off the wagon is Gemini. Regardless of Irrelephant's alignment, I believe there to be 1 scum off the wagon. So Gemini must be scum.

VOTE: GeminiTwin12

this was the only reason you ever gave for why you were scumreading gemini, ftr.

Great point, esp. cause the quoted post sounds kind of TMI. "Gemini must be scum" is too strong a conclusion here, and it's odd that misreading tw doesn't give mutant pause about his read on Gemini
Who's stungun's partner? Oh, gemini. @gemini can you ask stungun for some thoughts about this game? Curious to hear what he thinks now

I'm curious, how much of that did FL actually write for you?

lol

I'm curious, how much of that did FL actually write for you?

Wait what? You think FL is my partner now?

Like seriously, how?

Unless you think that argument I had with him earlier about him controlling the worst's posts was completely fabricated then I think it's pretty clear that if FL tried to say to me "hey, post this" then I really wouldn't.

If FL was my partner, why would he now be voting me if he had every reason to be pushing Gemini? If we were scum, we'd just need to lynch Gemini to win. He wouldn't have much reason to bus me unless he thought he'd survive the next day - which, from his posts, he clearly doesn't think he will.

This comment here feels to me as if you liked my recent posts but because you're so intent on me being scum you want to justify it as not actually being my thoughts.


RC, if Gemini is town then I really want you to explain why because I really don't see it.

Gemini is confirmed scum to me and they should have died yesterday.

I also honestly don't understand why you scum read me. You started the game town reading but then when you decided Gemini is town you reevaluated on me and from there it's been like I'm confirmed scum to you. You've criticised my every step saying it makes me scum but never really explained how it makes me scummy. You've interpreted my words wrong so many times yet when explained how you've interpreted me wrong you've seemingly made no effort to reevaluate your statements about it. I just don't understand why you have this burning hatred towards me.

This sort of makes me paranoid about RC but not for any actual raisins. If you're right that RC is wrong, please keep working real hard and provide some better raisins. Craisins, even. Also I bolded a thing that again seems too strong a conclusion for you. In what way is it confirmed?

like 7 people on a d1 wagon that flips town
you say 'oh there is probably scum on that wagon'
yes probability states that there is probably scum on that wagon but it doesn't mean you're saying anything meaningful
and the fact that you have extra information {your townreads) changes the probabilities of scum being on or off the wagon

but again I don't recall seeing you ever push something like that as town so hopefully you do in fact know better.

The conclusion isn't about the day 1 wagon. It's about the wagon that formed on Irrelephant. This meant there were 3 people on the wagon and 4 off of it including myself. Furthermore, the conclusion isn't about "there's probably scum on the wagon". It was about how the wagon was formed with the information that no hammer was given. Regardless of Irrelephant's alignment, there is

evidence to suggest that Gemini is scum if I am to assume my town reads are correct

.

And we've never played a game together so I don't understand your final statement. Unless you're trying to say you've meta dived me? If you have then you should really know how this game is nothing like my scum games. At all.

Okay but
1) what evidence? I still haven't seen you like quote anything of gemini's to discuss it or actually dissect what gemini is saying. I mean I guess my bad for giving scum advice here but it's true
2) this is a big if! No?

VOTE: Gemini

I'm unlikely to move from this vote tbh. The only alternative I'm really feeling at the moment is a no lynch.

I am curious why no lynch hasn't come up before now
But I guess with potential killstopping roles no lynch doesn't make as much sense as lynch, probably

Gemini is the only mislynch you guys are trying for and if lynching you first helps him lynch gemini why wouldn't he?
Furthermore: why would you feel the need to argue that you're not scum with flavor leaf if you were town

I was about to argue that since you scum read FL so much there is no chance he could win on his own and that we'd need to win today. But then I realised that even if we did lynch scum today we'd still be in mylo hence having Gemini lynched at any point would mean we would win. So it's fair enough I guess that from your PoV that we could be scum with that plan. But I'm telling you you're wrong.

And ofc course I'm going to argue I'm not scum with FL because I'm not scum... furthermore, I don't think FL is scum either so I will defend him from any push. If FL is scum then he'll be caught. I feel certain about that.

What do you mean saying you don't think FL is scum but if he is he'll be caught? Not by you, so..?

I will say mutant, if scum, is doing a great job of misdirecting who his partner is. I feel like his associatives are bouncing my head back and forth like a tennis game "It's gemini! It's flavor leaf! It's gemini! Hmmmm"


where's gamma

[Irrelephant11]

eh this argument is no longer interesting
please move on to actually casing gemini or trying to get a real read on RC

[Irrelephant11]

because I don't like to use our pt

[Irrelephant11]

oops meant to put that in the pt

[Irrelephant11]

I'm not really interested in your survivalism (reads scummy btw) and I'm pretty sure I'm the fourth vote for you to die, so since I'm not going to vote you yet you've got time to lay out cases

My concern if you're town (this is a possibility in my head and I'm not ready to 100% sheep RC yet) is that if you can't find a partner for gemini you're misunderstanding the game state. If you scumread a player but they can't be *anyone's* partner then they're probably actually town working individually and both scum are in your blindspot. Given you voted tw who was your scumread and -surprise!- they flipped town I'd think this would be more of a worry for you.

[Irrelephant11]

I have reasons to town read everyone else :/ I don't really have any reasons to town read Gemini and on top of that I have reasons to scum read her.

I guess my point is I think it would be time well spent for you if town to give a nice strong case for every living player, their alignment, and why. Doesn't need to be super long or wallpost-y, just the strongest reasoning you have for everyone left. You keep referring to "reasons" that I mostly am not aware of coming from you.

pedit: Assuming your own townreads to be correct when you have not shown proof that you can correctly lynch scum is dangerous. You have gotten something wrong this game in tw's lynch. So you

should

actually assume you have something wrong & re-evaluate transparently (especially when your PoE leaves you with just one scum - something obviously incorrect unless you're scum). Any time someone says this to you you go "well I like my reads from last game day so I'm just gonna sheep past me" who is DEMONSTRABLY incorrect

[Irrelephant11]

What do you mean saying you don't think FL is scum but if he is he'll be caught? Not by you, so..?

It's kinda complicated, but I feel that by tomorrow I will know whether or not I should be sheeping RC on FL.

then uncomplicate it for me

pedit: terrible plan, do the thing I said instead

[Irrelephant11]

It's probably FL/mutant at this point? FL's D2-ending vote was terrible

I hate that we lynched tw it has my parano-meter going crazyyyyyyy

pedit: RC

[Irrelephant11]

except when I'm paranoid, in which case it's Gamma

[Irrelephant11]

I'm not getting pings from Gamma, gut feeling that they're least likely to be scum. I dont see them actively "doing anything". If that makes sense.

Main concern about this is if his partner is "doing everything". I guess that'd be me/FL/RC, probably?
@FL & @RC, do you both still confidently townread Gamma?

pedit: oh hey gamma one sec

[Irrelephant11]

I mean I still don't see RC making the PR claim as scum
Scum RC could just kill townly-read Gamma and say "well I was still the most likely to get protected" or whatever
I guess since it's mylo it would also be a good move to no kill
But not very good for most scumteams here: RC/FL/Gamma seem capable and familiar enough with each other to catch each other out, so if any of them (or two of them) are scum I'd think one of those three would die
If it's mutant/Gamma I'd think an RC/FL NK would happen to remove town's most confident game solvers

What do you think about mutant/RC or mutant/FL?

I have spent literally 0 minutes considering mutant/RC
mutant/FL seemed pretty likely coming into this game day and still does

Are you asking what I think about their equity or about what they'd do in the night?

[Irrelephant11]

I think mutant/FL would kill RC or you
I think mutant/RC would... hm. Kill you? No kill? Interesting question.

[Irrelephant11]

@gemini what does tw's flip do to your reads
@gamma where's your head at

[Irrelephant11]

Every time I feel like I'm getting somewhere by conversing in real time the person/people I'm talking to disappear
Happens with too many players to be AI, but sure is annoying

[Irrelephant11]

hmmmmmm I'm actually having fun this game day this has gotten interestingggg

scum has obviously played well (and town pretty terrible - looking at you, Ircher) to get three townflips up to this point. That's why my paranoia keeps telling me that my solutions to the game must be wrong

Hey @RC, remember earlier this game day when you told me my reads were bad and that I should re-evaluate the gamestate, and then you came to a really similar conclusion about who was scum as I had? what was that about? What did you want me to re-evaluate?

[Irrelephant11]

All I know, is I’m most likely to be mislynched for the town defeat. And I’m trying my hardest to avoid that.

Stop saying this please

So I know I'm town

Gamma is pushing on Gemini
Irrelephant is pushing on Gemini
Mutant is pushing on Gemini
you're pushing on Gemini

Gemini is floundering in a towny way

No, scum just want to mislynch gemini and if you're town you should think long and hard about your townreads on irrelephant and gamma because gemini isn't scum here ever.

I'm... not really pushing on gemini? She's in my bottom three, but I've already said how confusing it is that the other two in my bottom three are pushing her, making her less likely to be either partner.
I know you lampshaded how this would make you look more like a gemini partner but this makes you look more like a gemini partner

Also, it looks like I'll have to get my own read on Gamma, because no one seems to have a confident read on him anymore...

I’m also not married to the idea, RC. I’m just putting that forth as what I think right now. I can see a world where anybody in this game is scum still

qft

also there's a certain amount of righteousness to the hey I'm not scum with FL because I wouldn't pull that shit that I kind of buy

same

I have a question

If Mutant wasn't scum, who would the scumteam be?

Why ask this? Thought you were pretty confident mutant was scum

I'll read up on things in a minute - @Irrelephant Stun says "I'm bombarded with college work, so it’d be kinda hard right now, maybe i can spare a few thoughts this weekend, but i would not expect it. I could try to give thoughts on someone specific if wants."

I would like stungun's thoughts on mutant, then if he has time, gamma.

Had intentions of responding asap, I have taxing things to deal with, that being said here are some thoughts regarding this.

I have a question

If Mutant wasn't scum, who would the scumteam be?

Irrelephant + Gamma? = That feels to..perfect. Too good to be true, if that makes sense because I've town read Rel mostly and Gamma isn't giving me pings. Also because earlier Gamma was scum reading them and if that was for distancing purposes..it wasn't really needed at the time.

Irrelephant + Flavor Leaf?= Flavor's been scum reading Rel often this game, if they're partners they he just threw him under the bus and backed over it several times throughout.

Gamma + Flavor Leaf?= maybe from a PoE standpoint but I don't see anything direct to actually support it this. Thoughts on this would be helpful.

Flavor Leaf + RC?= it's not out of the realm of possibility given them, It just doesn't seem as likely to me given how extra their play would feel. I'm saying that it's not..cohesive, doesn't make sense because RC could have just jumped on any slot FL was on and vice versa.

Gamma + RC?= Not much interaction to gauge how likely this is. Gut feeling is telling me no but if someone seems something I don't then I'm all ears of course.

RC+ Irrelephant?= Feels the same as Flavor + RC.

Is this your way of saying mutant has to be scum?
Also, this leaves me wanting to talk more with you about Gamma, and (even more) having you talk to Gamma. Seems like you need to sort his slot

I’ll stop scumcasing myself now...

No, go on. I was just starting to get convinced

but I’m just town reading Gamma, RC, and Irrelephant so much to the point if I am wrong about one of them, I have no clue who i’m Wrong about

same

[Irrelephant11]

I honestly don't really know what you're saying there (first half)
I think I'm a little braindead from work but yikes I've read that like five times and don't know what you're trying to get across

I don't think it's as obvious as you say it is that because gemini is being considered scummy by many players she is therefore town
I also just kind of think it's a good idea to lynch FL/mutant atm, though. Do you disagree?

[Irrelephant11]

Can it be Gamma/FL? Gamma's ISO is like 75% in D1, when FL wasn't playing really. Then they traded activity levels. Gamma has townread FL reallll easily and vice versa, FL even accusing me of "abusing" "locktown" Gamma.

RC I need your eyes on this because a big reason I was townreading both these players was me trying to be a good sheep
@mutant and @FL (and @gemini I guess let's be thorough) I also want your thoughts on Gamma's play since the start of D2

[Irrelephant11]

Let’s vote Gamma

[Irrelephant11]

@gemini what does tw's flip do to your reads
@gamma where's your head at

sorry about leaving, had to take a call
I'm not sure who's scum but I definitely think looking at voting patterns will help, I just need to get to that

Here’s my reason

[Irrelephant11]

I was starting to freak out that we don’t have time to make sense of this game but we have over a week, phew

Ummm can we talk more about Gamma/Flavor? I feel like it makes a lot of sense and everyone just kind of ignored it when I said it

[Irrelephant11]

I still think I think it's Flavor/Gamma
@mutant, thoughts?
@RC?

[Irrelephant11]

I'll have more analysis about it later today

[Irrelephant11]

It's either that or Gamma/mutant

Either way let's do Gamma today

[Irrelephant11]

I'll need to check who's partnered with stungun first though.

gemini

why?

[Irrelephant11]

Wow if you're town you play an extremely frustrating game

[Irrelephant11]

wow how nice
It's a good thing this isn't a social team game where frustrating your own team is against your own wincon

[Irrelephant11]

Let's do the thing where I'm frustrated with you and we think the other might be scum but we also have an objective conversation

I'm gonna start pulling gamma's early interactions because while mutant/gemini isn't off the table, Gamma is my focus for now

pedit: also my frustration with you is that you have provided very little analysis for most of your theories

[Irrelephant11]

I mean replace me/gemini with flavor/gamma and you have my list, which is interesting

Sorry I want to be posting analysis but my internet is being really broken

[Irrelephant11]

But also upon cursory review my current favorite partner for scum!Gamma is mutant
ugh and now I have to go

Scumread me if I don't come back to this tomorrow, I just don't have time today

[Irrelephant11]

Great! Shoshin sees it too. Longer posts coming today but the short version is VOTE: mutant

[Irrelephant11]

UNVOTE:
Shoshin and I agree that it's definitely Gamma/mutant

unless

FL is maybe scum
So... figure that out gemini/RC, and if FL is town then it feels solved fmpov

[Irrelephant11]

It's not AtE, it's me being upset that Irrelephant is making a big deal out of nothing

This quote is representative of how Ircher and Prof Fridays were both scumreading Gamma for the way he approached my RVS ending, which I agree was bad, among other things. Given we know they've flipped town it's worth considering sheeping them (in addition to the fact that re-reading Gamma's reaction to me early game gives me scum vibes)

See, this is why Gamma is scum. There's nothing really pingy about GIF's second post.

GIF's last line is the equivalent of a replacement asking "Is there anything important that I should know about" when they replace in. In this case though, GIF is simply behind due to V/LA and all, but functionally, it's the same statement.

OK cool. Thing is, I'm trying to kick this game up a notch since nothing seems to be happening.

Says he's trying to kick the game up a notch, but quits as soon as the attention turns on him

So I'm caught up of the game's preceding events.

I don't really have anything to comment on since I was reading it as just some reading rather than something to engage with. However, I will be engaging with things said from now on so that y'all can get some AI stuff from my slot.

Right now I think Gamma is town and Ircher feels *different* which is giving me a scum twitch.

In general, I find something off about {Ircher, Prof Fridays, GeminiTwin12 & Flavor Leaf}. Idk why but I just feel like both scums could be in such pool as if you pick any 2 players from this pool then they make sense as a scum team.

Townreads Gamma (a read he has never wavered on) and refers to Ircher with the phrase "scum twitch" which he will later backtrack. It's his first stated scumread, and yet he ends up the only player other than me off the Ircher lynch.

Right now I think Gamma is town and Ircher feels *different* which is giving me a scum twitch.

pls talk about both of these in more detail

This is the beginning of Gamma & FL's only real interaction. Occasionally they have VERY casual interactions after this, but in large part they just assume each other to be town and move on after this "sorting" interaction D1. Given how much paranoia I and most players have had about each other, this is definitely suspect.

Right now I think Gamma is town and Ircher feels *different* which is giving me a scum twitch.

pls talk about both of these in more detail

When I was reading your posts I remember thinking "yeah, this is the stuff I had to deal with when I was scum" and I feel like Ircher should have said something with more weight by now which makes me feel like he has a little less care for this game - something I assume comes from scum!Ircher.

okay cool
that had a couple of reason to it
1) me checking your read on me cos I wanted to ensure you had something behind it. I think that's a good thought process fyi.
2) I just wanted you to expand in general to help get a decent read on you. fyi: town read for now.
and btw what games have you played with Ircher?

This is the rest of it. Then it's just mutual townreads for the rest of the game

Are you trying to discredit my knowledge of you now?

Because this:

I haven’t said something of more weight because there isn’t quite a lot to go by.

Gave me the impression that you thought I was right about my analysis and that your defence was that there isn't a lot to go on yet.

Do you want to change your defence to that I'm not familiar enough with you?

More pushing of a scumread on Ircher that he drops and retcons later

Professor why did you just speculate on someone’s PR status???????

Oh good I’m already voting you. Like that’s not even setup spec, either. It just helps scum???

Ircher, Gamma, take a break from each other and join this wagon please

Wow not sure what to do about gamma and ircher actually following me onto the professor

I'm thinking town more than likely includes
me
the duck
the professor
the leaf
the twin
the emerald

leaving ircher, freezer, mutant. Hmm weird

Also what if it's flavorleaf and the worst

So you are telling me this ended up a reaction test? Because I honestly don't buy it as such.
VOTE: Irrelephant

I don't think he did but I don't like how you respond

Gamma says Ircher is scummy for reacting to my "reaction test" badly, but has nothing to say about mutant's identical response on the next page

oh yeah I forgot I was voting him for a reason. Sorry I've been playing too many games the past week or so, thankfully one just ended and [redacted], so I'll be a little more able to keep my reads straight. Still, you two seemed really into scumreading each other, so it was still a little weird how quickly you both dropped it. I think you look worse from it than Gamma, possibly from conf!bias, but you're right that the professor should maybe still be in my lynchpool

honestly that reads list was more the reaction test while I catch up & re-read, which I'm still doing

What the hell is this?

honestly that reads list was more the reaction test

hahahahahhaha

VOTE: Irrelephant11

[Irrelephant11]

In general, I find something off about {Ircher, Prof Fridays, GeminiTwin12 & Flavor Leaf}. Idk why but I just feel like both scums could be in such pool as if you pick any 2 players from this pool then they make sense as a scum team.

Please talk more about these players individually. "any combo makes sense as a team" is a terrible reason to scumread individual players.
Also I find it odd that mutant's ISO has this lynchpool and then some "Ircher is scummy" posts and then his first vote is on me. I've proven to myself time and time again that I overreact to being voted and/or antagonized as town though so I'm trying to leave room on this read for others to comment

I find it odd that you'd question this now instead of earlier. My guess at your timing would be that you're trying to distract my mind and the mind of others from your slip.

And I never said that I scum read any of these individuals. I was just saying that you could pair any 2 of the individuals from this list and you could believe they're a scum team.


"Also I find it odd that mutant's ISO has this lynchpool and then some "Ircher is scummy" posts and then his first vote is on me" - You say that as though my vote on you came out of nowhere.

Here is where he starts retconning his scumread of Ircher (among other thigns I still scumread him doing)

I just think your time, if town, would be better spent trying to pull AI content from other players, rather than lynch a v active player with, I guess, the votes of the inactives?

Or like if you're unsure on tw he's around enough you could be interacting with him

If you're town I'd be surprised if your one D1 tunnel was scum when you hadn't yet sorted 1/2+ of the playerlist. Also your reads on Prof and me seem to both be scumreads, so like, is there *anyone* you think is town atm?

Gamma similar thoughts @you regarding Ircher, though I think you've been less problematic in regards to ignoring large swaths of the playerlist

ircher/mutant?

Hm? This is at me right? I don't think you're scum rn, thought I mentioned that. Beyond that also think tw and mutant are town

Typical scum move of tossing a partner in casual townreads

MUCH more coming tomorrow gtg

[Irrelephant11]

UNVOTE:
Shoshin and I agree that it's definitely Gamma/mutant

unless

FL is maybe scum
So... figure that out gemini/RC, and if FL is town then it feels solved fmpov

Based on Flavor Leaf's post 1877 - it feels like if FL is scum with either of them then I'm crowning him the king of calculated bussing, can you ask Shoshin their thoughts on the potential for this? @Irrelephant

Yeah she's re-reading FL now (now in a broad, she'll get back to me, sense)

VOTE: Gamma

GG. Gemeni and I were scum.

Yes, good, my blood pressure was certainly too low this morning


RC I want Mutant and so does Shoshin. why do you want Gamma?

[Irrelephant11]

mutant are town

wait why

Help me see past the omgus

I feel like his attitude plus perspective are towny
you can probably just read my interactions with him and you'll understand it

This now reads as "We scripted a pretty good interaction that you can use to townread us both"

Because it was a reaction test of sorts. I wanted to see what people would say if I gave some estimation of my reads - I knew that if I misremembered anything someone would bring it up

Yeah I can see how you can get something AI out of this

This was clearly a lame attempt to buddy me/do the opposite of mutant (who was pushing me for this at the time).

I said it's not obvious to me that those posts come from town, when it seemed like those were what other players were townreading you for.

What made you think those 2 posts in particular were responsible for people town reading me?

The only people explicitly town reading me are Gamma and Ircher. Maybe ducky but that's nothing official. Gamma clearly formed his town read on me from my responses to the questions he asked me

and Ircher didn't state a reason; though it can be inferred it was from my recent posts at the time - but that only justifies half of your statement.

Why ask if my answer can't ever be good enough?

I never said that your answers could never be good enough, just that the specific one you're giving me for one of my questions wasn't. It'd concern me if you felt as though your answers were hopeless to this specific event in the game.

I didn't think a mistake would lead to this mess.

How naive must you be to think it wouldn't concern others when one of your seemingly stronger reads blatantly and abruptly changed? Do you not think it's scum indictive when player's reads change for no reason?

it doesn't feel like mutant wants to understand my perspective, he just wants to push.

There's no reason that I can't both understand your perspective and push against it. I understand your proposed perspective very well. If you are town, you've made a mistake which you see as being blown out of proportion. Whilst I understand that perspective, to accept it would be to assume you are town. I do not accept your perspective. I see a likelihood of you being scum here so pushing against your perspective is the best way to discover the truth. For all I know, your perspective could be that of scum who made a slip and is now frustrated on being pushed for it.

I find it hard to believe this wasn't you giving a scum/lynch pool. Especially because if it wasn't a lynchpool, you have offered basically no reads since replace-in aside from scumreading me and Ircher.

no reads aside from town reading gamma and scum reading you*

I never said I scum read Ircher.

And that's how I like to play - I don't care for leans in either direction. If my read isn't strong, it's null. Right now I have a strong belief that you are scum and an even stronger belief that Gamma is town. If you expect me to have a read on everyone by the end of the day then you're just going to be disappointed. It's entirely plausible that we could make it to end game without me forming a read on anyone.

You never voted Ircher. It was a scumcase without a vote to back it up. Why?

Do all scam cases really need a supporting vote? I believe that the more you use your vote the less value it holds. It's more significant that I'm voting you due to the fact that I didn't use it on Ircher.

Whilst I expressed reasons that Ircher is scummy, I don't actually scum read him at this time.

I've played around with the idea that he is scum, expressed in the thread what has been going through my mind, but arrived at the conclusion that it isn't enough to scum read him fully. I'm likely to view Ircher with a more critical eye though, but that doesn't warrant a vote. If I had reached the opposite conclusion then my vote would definately have been on Ircher.

1) Subtle defense of Gamma's choice to townread mutant
2) Who says this to the player they're tunneling as scum?
3) More Ircher retconning - maybe to avoid being seen as playing too similarly to Gamma?

I mean you admit here that you have listed reason why Ircher is scummy. I will add that you have also not listed a single reason he might not be scum. Apparently my single post was enough for a vote, so I do find it scummy that you refuse to vote him despite listing multiple reasons he could be scum.

Also like I and others have said, your "not-a-lynchpool" list from one of your early posts is meaningless as associational data, and if it's not a set of scumreads it makes no sense to share. You can pick most pairs of players on D1 (heck, even us) and say they're a likely scumteam. You could have listed every single player in between those brackets. I haven't seen from you that you're doing any work to find pairs who cannot be scum together, so why did you list those four names specifically? I think it made a ton of sense as a lynchpool, but I think now that you've decided you'd rather have me lynched you feel the need to backtrack, say you haven't given many reads, that you might never give reads! (even though you say at the same time that you have two strong reads)

Your play makes zero sense to me so far. I would expect to understand something about your town mindset if we shared an alignment. I don't. VOTE: mutantdevle
This also explains why I thought there was at most one scum in the five or six players who have been active since daystart. I found the one who needed to be replaced.

Do I need to provide reasons he is

not

scum? Surely the burden of proof here is that, for him to be scum, I need to provide reasons to prove that he

is

scum. Hence the lack of that means he isn't. All my reasons to suspect him I do not believe to be enough to say with any degree of certainty that he is scum.

I'm not scum reading you for a single post. It's a mixture of your original slip, your attempts to justify it - my vote was for these reasons - and then your answers thereafter giving me no reason to back off. And the suspicion of you and the suspicion of Ircher are completely different. My suspicion of Ircher is entirely based on my expectations of him. He's not meeting my expectations. That doesn't make him scum because my own expectations are by no means an accurate measure of his alignment. On the other hand, you made a slip that is specifically to do with the very nature of being scum. As scum, your reads aren't real. I believe your reads list, shit justification of a mistake, and reaction thereafter, to be indicative that your reads are made up. Do you see how the 2 are completely different?

If you think that my list doesn't give any associations then clearly you aren't looking for them. The very fact that I felt the need to mention those 4 is worth something. And it does make sense to share... if I later make a case that 2 of these players are a scum team then you'll be able to trace back the moment I started believing in such premise - where the route of the idea came from. You can then asses whether I've had a natural progression of thought or if I've been planning a fake case in the long run.

And I disagree that you could pick anyone and say they could be a scum team. Naturally, some people are going to make more sense than others. And, as I've said, I mentioned those 4 in particular as, from reading all the posts before the replace in, I thought their posts complemented each other well. I've made no backtracking of any sort, I still have this belief of these 4.

It's true I haven't given many reads. I have 2. That's how I play. My reads build slowly and carefully.

I don't care for rushing the progression of my reads

or claiming a town read where I've merely liked a single post. As for not forming a read on anyone, I meant someone. I'm not likely to complete a game with no reads, that would be ridiculous. But it's plausible that I could go a game without forming a conclusive read on player B for example. I find that you don't always need to.

"Your play makes zero sense to me so far. I would expect to understand something about your town mindset if we shared an alignment. VOTE: mutantdevle"
So basically, your vote on me is because we think differently? Nice.

1) Like what?
2) Bolding this as an early instance of multiple references by mutant to his own "progression" - mutant has really held to the idea that the fact he can point to his own clear progression is a towntell, but I don't think town is ever so careful. But because he thinks it earns him townpoints, he plants the idea here that this is what will happen.
3) Impressive AtE to get me to unvote him but also a bizarre thing to say to someone you think is lying

[Irrelephant11]

and tw to provide deeper thoughts than he has been.

I'd like to echo this. I'm noticing a distinct lack of a quack which usually brightens up my games.

Around here mutant just kind of drops his scumread of me, like he forgot, and "echoes" my post. He doesn't say his read of me changed, though, and he leaves his vote until day end.

Hi so I'm probably going to be hunting on the Ircher wagon today, he should never have been lynched once Creature started participating

Basically another way of saying "Look, I'm gonna avoid talking about mutant today" (especially since it's not long from here that Gamma decide Flavor Leaf is probably right that I'm scum, even though I'm off the wagon).

This happens early on Mutants entry, and although Gamma is like Mutant’s only started town read, he is never brought up again.

What need have I to bring up Gamma again? Unless he does something that makes me reconsider my read on him, I feel no real need to engage with him given we have both formed a conclusion on each other - aside, of course, from asking him about his other reads as advice which I feel like I have no need to do at this stage.

Just gonna leave this here.

okay cool
that had a couple of reason to it
1) me checking your read on me cos I wanted to ensure you had something behind it. I think that's a good thought process fyi.
2) I just wanted you to expand in general to help get a decent read on you. fyi: town read for now.
and btw what games have you played with Ircher?

The quote of Gamma’s i posted earlier was also directed towards Mutant. Interesting.

But if we're both scum then that kinda devalues the reason you thought this post made Gamma scum does it not?

This is a really strong scum post, Gamma. Impressed.

Getting a read on you from someone else, and then having the player do something for you.

You’re getting a player to want you to trust them rather than the Mafia way of you trying to get them to trust you.

Nice.

This obviously wouldn't be his intent if he knew me to be scum.

Maybe you should take this as a sign that, if either of us was scum, we're not scum together?

This was also my conclusion at the time, but the way mutant says it (I think after I'd already said it?) is pretty suspect.

I'm okay with you scum reading a strong town read of mine - because a lot of my reads tend to turn out wrong - but trying to tie me in with them through 'PoE'? Nah. I think you need to do some reevaluating.

"When I mislynch it isn't my fault"
"You can't PoE down to me and my scum partner that's... bad"

I think Irrelephant's day 2 posting has convinced me that they are town.

Let's track this progression

This post is a reminder to myself to reread the last page and a half because I kinda skim read it due to finding it boring.

Done. Too much pointlessness for my liking. All it's done is made me slightly doubt my irrelephant town read but nowhere near enough to remove it.

You want me to vote irrelephant?

I'd prefer it if you kept engaging with Gemini tbh.

Okay, Flavour Leaf I'm going to make a choice to trust you here. In my head, you are either scum trying to take control or town who is

probably

right. So since I town read Gamma, what you're telling me is that irrelephant and Gemini are the scum team.

Do you want me to place intent to hammer irrelephant?

Definitely a surprise from a slot that seems pretty sure I'm town, so I ask about it

Anyway mutant you can't intent to hammer since there's now only two votes on me. But welcome back - please do tell why FL is right and what about me/gemini reads scummy to you

So I can just vote you normally then?

I find myself regularly agreeing with FL but not necessarily liking the tone of his posts. Of course, 'tone' is just the way one reads posts so that's me doing that and not necessarily him.

You don't seem scummy to me, I have you as a town read - I'm sheeping here because I want to see where FL's attitude and opinions lead. Despite changing his stance a few times throughout the game, he's confident in them - like he believes each one and then reaches a different conclusion. Actually, reading that back makes me have some faith in town!FL.

But the point is that giving FL what he wants is something that, I believe, will give us more information on him. If that involves lynching you, so be it. My read on you isn't the strongest and I'm known to have bad reads - so there's still the chance you could be scum from my PoV. And if lynching town!you proves later that FL is scum, then your death would be worth it and you wouldn't die in vain.

As for Gemini, she is in my lynch pool anyway. Not because she's necessarily scummy, but because she is not one of my town reads and I'm yet to sort her.

His explanation is "I wanted to flip you green to prove that Flavor Leaf is scum"

And if lynching town!you proves later that FL is scum, then your death would be worth it and you wouldn't die in vain.

yuck
this as a reason to give intent to hammer?

Yeah. I just like it when people claim :3 I doubt I'd actually have hammered you thereafter.

Good news for you is that I've reassured myself of your alignment being town (though primarily because I have now finally formed proper scum reads).

He retcons his reasoning to "I wouldn't have actually hammered, I just wanted you to claim" (explaining nothing about how this helps him read Flavor Leaf, which he previously said was central to giving intent)

Okay so this is my preferred lynch order:

Gemini > the worst >

FL > RC >

Irrelephant > Gamma.

I'm also very confident that at least one of Gemini and FL are scum.

And then I'm back at the top of his townreads with Gamma (who he has never really towncased, and who at this point didn't deserve higher than null)

Mutant did say they’d go on Irrelephant, so i am happy to stay on Mutant for the this day phase

Umm, when did I say I'd vote Irrelephant? I'm town reading Irrelephant and not willing to vote them at all. I want either Gemini or the worst lynched.

Calling this out as another retcon

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: mutant

I can keep writing these walls if you guys want, it's pretty damning stuff
But personally I've convinced myself
mutant before gamma because mutant should have been lynched last game day
But if there's some strong reason to vote Gamma first I guess I will

[Irrelephant11]

Eh I'd maybe vote Gamma if you voted there first

[Irrelephant11]

Oh right I did want to include this scumslip
And like I said I'm happy to continue to scumcase Gamma and mutant but only if anyone still needs it

because in the towncase scenario mutant doesn't understand game mechanics at all and is saying really really dumb things while attacking like a complete ass to me about them

I have a habit of confusing watcher/tracker sometimes. A few of the points, however, still stand. This 1 mistake does not reflect my ability as a whole.

If I make it to mylo, it will be because everyone believes me to be town.

I don't get close to the end of the game without obv towning and being able to easily read me as town will make the job of whoever else is involved with mylo a whole lot easier.

Town thinks "I'll be

stuck in mylo if I fail

to be the among the best townies"
Scum thinks "I'll

make it to mylo if I manage

to trick everyone into thinking I'm one of the best townies"

[Irrelephant11]

Around here mutant just kind of drops his scumread of me, like he forgot, and "echoes" my post. He doesn't say his read of me changed, though, and he leaves his vote until day end.

Come on, be fair, this is primarily because my activity flaked.

You posted again two days later, and again two days after that.

also what you're still not changing here is that your most thought-out posts have all been in defense of yourself. If you really think I'm so off on gemini, or that RC is up there in contention for gemini's likely partner, or if you really think I'm town who is likely to mislynch, make any of those scum/town cases. I have yet to be impressed by your analysis on anyone other than yourself (except mayyybe that post where you appealed to everyone to vote tw, but that was mostly based on a single point)

[Irrelephant11]

UNVOTE:
Shoshin and I agree that it's definitely Gamma/mutant

unless

FL is maybe scum
So... figure that out gemini/RC, and if FL is town then it feels solved fmpov

Based on Flavor Leaf's post 1877 - it feels like if FL is scum with either of them then I'm crowning him the king of calculated bussing, can you ask Shoshin their thoughts on the potential for this? @Irrelephant

Agreed that FL would be the king of bussing but his push on me for a minute for my partner flipping green is also pretty bad
As was his tw hammer
This is the only reason I'm not 100% certain (though I feel pretty certain)

Shoshin's thoughts so far are something like "WOW it's definitely mutant/Gamma that's the most obvious thing"
"Oh wait... FL is also scummy... hmm... I'll get around to reading FL thoroughly sometime soon"

pedit: okay great well I'm not on a team with gemini/FL and as soon as they both post we'll have confirmed one or more scum in RC/Gamma/mutant

[Irrelephant11]

But the best town don't make it to mylo
The best scum do

You don't know I'm not confbiasing, I guess?
The fact that I'm second guessing enough to not be voting either of you rn I guess is how you know?

[Irrelephant11]

k that's fine
I'm waiting to confirm that this trio (you/mutant/gamma) has a scum before moving on

[Irrelephant11]

I thought RC was your strongest town read?

He is

But the best town don't make it to mylo
The best scum do

You don't know I'm not confbiasing, I guess?
The fact that I'm second guessing enough to not be voting either of you rn I guess is how you know?

I didn't realize you weren't voting either of us, but that's beside the point, did you see anything reading that didn't feel like it fit with the idea of me and mutant being scum?
And fair point about who makes it to mylo

No not really
Maybe like one or two "hmm that might not be s/s" little moments but

please don't make me spend time on this game when I have better things to do

spend time on this game when you have better things to do
You signed up for it

I want to know

why

FL isn't scum if that's the case
And you/gemini is my paranoia case that you lurking is doing nothing to help

[Irrelephant11]

Can we say yet that enough time has passed to officially rule out me/FL, me/gemini, and FL/gemini as possible pairings? Any of those pairings would have won by now

[Irrelephant11]

So we're definitely lynching within RC/Gamma/Mutant
It really is down to which of Gamma/mutant to lynch first
Handing the game to scum!RC if it's scum!RC because I won't feel bad about losing that way in my first game against a well-known amazingscum

The way Gamma redirected my attention to his lynch "You should be voting me if you think it might be me/FL, right?" almost feels like he wants to go down and bring FL with him

So yeah, I guess I'm fine with a Gamma lynch. Sort of annoying how it feels like I've put a lot out there this game day and gotten "uh, yeah, ok, sure" lately from literally every slot

[Irrelephant11]

Hey Gamma, awhile ago you said you'd do re-reading and VCA. When you're finished with that,

did

you

see anything reading that didn't feel like it fit with the idea of me and mutant being scum?

bolding is mine

[Irrelephant11]

UNVOTE:
Shoshin and I agree that it's definitely Gamma/mutant

unless

FL is maybe scum
So... figure that out gemini/RC, and if FL is town then it feels solved fmpov

So you think it's either me and Gamma or FL and Gamma yet I'm the one you want to vote?



You're explanation better be that whatever case your about to make is that the evidence is stronger towards me than the other two otherwise I might have to put an apostrophe in the middle of that sad face.

oh my bad it was mutant who said it
@gemini what did you think I was referencing?

pedit: I'm asking if YOU see anything that wouldn't fit with you/mutant being scum together

[Irrelephant11]

o.. k?
You're probably the lynch here? Why don't you seem to care?

[Irrelephant11]

Then don't. Just find scum?

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Gamma

@Flavor & Gemini, if you're both town, please prove it by posting without hammering

actually wait that would only work if Gamma is town

Whatever do what you will, I'm not doing any more game solving this weekend and I don't want a rushed lynch at day end
Hoping this works

[Irrelephant11]

lol wat

Who’s my partner? We’ve already proved it’s not me/Gemini

lol

[Irrelephant11]

Also, just a side bar, this has been an extremely fun game guys. I’d happily play with any of you again.

Same tho

[Irrelephant11]

Town!FL is gonna be a problem for lylo if Gemini hammers
Because this looks exactly like what scum!FL would do here

Pedit: if he says that he’s lying so

[Irrelephant11]

Hardclaim doctor. Saved RC N2 and Mutant last night

Crumbs to follow

[Irrelephant11]

Spoiler: crumbs & hints

Failed neighbor still being a good lynch because vengeful, I mean

Interested in the "watcher enabler" claim. Seems similar to Ircher's claim in terms of "don't-lynch-me" utility

I asked about the likelihood of RC's claim being fake because I wanted to save him (not thinking about how watcher would watch watcher enabler)

Honestly same, I was ready to join a Prof Fridays wagon so I'm confused about the choice here
Trying to avoid a protective? Is my only real guess

Is there any precedent for scum to be a watcher enabler? Because if not RC is basically confirmed town which would be nice

@FL you’re the only one on my wagon who has provided reasoning for voting me imo

Not claiming if I don’t need to

@tw which slots?

Moving on from that, Irrelephant. Let’s go back to our town on town, even if we have to fake it. Talk to me.

K

why is tw anywhere above the bottom of your list? Off the top of my head I only remember you saying he's done some really impressive AtE toward you. Without meta context that sounds like a reason to scumread him

Why is RC, the semi-confirmed enabler claim, lower than the top of your list?

I'm about here

RC
Gamma
Gemini/Mutant
Flavor Leaf
the worst

If there's a quickhammer that player will get speedlynched in lylo and lose
idc their alignment

I mean from where I'm sitting you (@mutant) and the worst are always the best two lynches
If you want my vote somewhere other than you it'll be on the worst
why is the worst town, again? You ignored my question to you about him like three pages ago (found it in 1218)

good post 11/10 would lynch this

Me saying I'd policy lynch anyone who quickhammers town the day before lylo is NAI and you know it
I'll stand by this post-game to prove

Yeah, I’m town reading Irrelephant for the pause he gives me. No point as scum for him to do that.

Oh look, one thing we can actually agree on, Irrelephant being town. Crazy it took them unvoting you upon request for you to come to this conclusion but whatever. Also, it's funny that you said:

I disagree if I push Irrelephant I’ll be lynched.

When for a good while there me+Irrelephant were designated scum partners in your eyes. So I'm saying that hasn't really stopped you from going down that road. And like I said before, it seems like you're spitballing all these wacky teams (Gamma/Mutant, IR/The Worst, & Me+

almost

everyone here) and seeing what sticks. That’s the type of vibe I get from you with most of your reads and like earlier, lack of real explanation.

You could be scum with TW, Gemeni, still figurin stuff out

None of anything you just said means absolutely anything

Disagree, she has basically the same scumread of you as I do. Address it or never get my vote where you want it

I am highly susceptible to pocketing. sigh

When Gemeni flips scum, you can get rid of that feeling.

If Gemeni flips town, just lynch me tomorrow.
She will flip scum, though

Gemini lynch {flips town} > Flavor lynch would actually be fine imo but idk if the playerlist would all agree to uphold it (especially since your partner would advocate for you)
Gemini lynch {flips scum} > Flavor gets to pick a lynch would also be fine
If

everyone

agrees to this plan I miiiight go with it

I know, I've brought that up, but enablers in general are much more likely to be town according to the wiki, and it's an annoyingly effective fakeclaim for such a small game if scum

postulation: what if it was an informed mafia?

This actually makes a lot of sense.

As an Informed Mafia who knows of a Watcher, Watcher Enabler mill makes it so you are the theoretically most likely kill to be made, so watch target would be on scum making the kill safe to make.

It gives off the vibe that whoever would end up claiming Watcher could still be pushed as a Mafia Watcher.

RC protecting Gemeni and going after me ensures that if they win this battle, that they open up every single ohher player as a mislynch option. They have to get rid of me because I’m town reading the right people, but making people paranoid at the same time.

RC and Gemeni are the scum team. :shrug:

It is what it is.

You haven't addressed the point I brought up about it being too strong a fakeclaim for a micro normal
Not to mention how it ALSO hurts town to actually kill a watcher enabler
Way too strong unless town has more power than I think we do

Yeah no crap RC is town
If you're scum with tw you just told him to say that with you so you can get RC off your back


great

sure, let's do this for a bit. RC is town. Assume you and I are both town (for discussion's sake). Who's scum?

annoyed because now it feels like RC/FL might actually be the team and that's why he has to turn it back on me
But that would be really upsetting setup-wise
If RC agrees it was tvt then I'd consider everyone just sheeping the two of them
But they'd need to 100% agree to being BoP'd.

Also, RC said i should prioritize a lynch on him not Gemeni. I was doing that. As soon as I saw RC as scum, I went after him. So that is a misrep right there.

Lynching Gemeni increases the chances of lynching RC next. It makes no sense as scum to go after Gemeni here, because if Gemeni were to flip town, I’m fucked.

That objectively clears me as town.

This isn't the worst argument I've heard for you being town, actually.
Definitely not an "objective clear", though, especially depending on where your vote ultimately ends up. I'm well aware both scum!you and scum!RC are capable of going to great theater lengths.

YOU DONT WALL CASE ME EVER WHEN YOURE TOWN!!!!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

I don’t even care anymore. Lynch me for all it matters. I caught out ScumRC. That’s a personal win in my book.

@Gamma/Irrelephant - hammer Gemeni for me, will ya? It’s gonna prove me right. If you think Gemeni will flip town, meh, just see it as it confirms me as scum in that case.

I guarantee you I’m right with the scum team at this point.

Why isn't your "I caught out ScumRC" followed by a vote on RC?

Also, RC said i should prioritize a lynch on him not Gemeni. I was doing that. As soon as I saw RC as scum, I went after him. So that is a misrep right there.

Lynching Gemeni increases the chances of lynching RC next. It makes no sense as scum to go after Gemeni here, because if Gemeni were to flip town, I’m fucked.

That objectively clears me as town.

what else are you supposed to do? you're fucked, your best play is to lynch gemini nightkill me and say whoops I was wrong and go back and try to get the irrelephant lynch.
you know what objectively clears me as town? the fact that I'm an enabler to a restricted watcher.
the idea that scum would be informed about an already limited watcher is meme tier and schadd has shown no indication that he uses roles like watcher.

but you know that you're never going to get my lynch through that and you're not trying to because you

don't have to.

Agree that informed would be OP and if it's true that schadd doesn't usually use Watcher then RC would neve think to fakeclaim
If I have time later maybe I'll double check some of schadd's setups but I'm inclined to just agree

Like honestly, I don’t make it out of this game if I was scum. And as town, this is likely my last day anyways, so let’s at least hit ScumGemeni, and you guys can figure out a way to deal with ScumRC tomorrow.

If you're town at this point it seems like you'd know that your best play is to get rid of RC while you're still around
Just because of the pure posting force you each have it'd be a cop-out here from town!you to settle for a gemini lynch when convinced of scum!RC
Makes me think you don't believe your own reads at this point (which I've thought all game day but this def adds to that)

You’re not a town enabler. You’re coasting off your fake claim.

since when do I coast off of fake claims? since when do I not have the follow through to close out games? since when do I let myself get tied to buddies when I'm basically confirmed town?

You aren’t confirmed town. I’m conftown! Objectively.

You’re just WIFOM’ing and ignoring the fact that that was easily a ploy to get you towncred for the game, and now you’re getting caught out.

Bolded is just not true no matter how many times you say it

"easily a ploy to get you towncred for the game"

how did I know the watcher existed unless I'm an enabler and why does schadd give scum an enabler to a town restricted watcher?
you're trying to act like me getting this role is something that I consciously did.

Gamma already explained this. Informed role, or you’re a Scum Enabler.

I’m leaning towards the Informed, though. It was a good scum play, I’ll give it that.

I brought this up but whatever
If you've got a role that would explain how this isn't too strong of a fakeclaim for scum to have, feel free to claim. Otherwise this just seems like a disingenuous push from the start
Especially given

I'd already said all this

and you

ignored me

I see a future where you go oh I wouldn't have killed RC after saying that I should be lynched after he dies, the rest of the town nods along reluctantly and mutant throws down another gamethrow vote tomorrow.

Gamma already explained this. Informed role, or you’re a Scum Enabler.

I’m leaning towards the Informed, though. It was a good scum play, I’ll give it that.

you can't rationalize the existence of an informed role on scum telling them about an odd night watcher.

What correlation does any of that have to the mod putting an informed role which are almost unheard of in normals?

I will say though that informed was part of the recent Normal Games Whitelist additions, so it's going to show up more than in the past (when it was Grey Listed I think?)

Nah I'll have more paranoia flashes than I otherwise would prolly but if you're scum I'll just be mad at either schadd for bad setup or whoever's role would be effectively a cc to you for not cc'ing. Until a pr claim happens that changes my idea of the setup you're just town

esp. because I'm also flip flopping on FL

I'm not sure mass claiming would get guilties? There's multiple kinds of PRs that stop kills without getting a guilty, like the way a bodyguard or doctor's target is *most probably* town
Maybe a soft *something AI* if we claimed
Plus then we have the claimant to deal with

I want to talk more for now about the lynch
Why did it end up being tw? What does that say?

I mean I still don't see RC making the PR claim as scum
Scum RC could just kill townly-read Gamma and say "well I was still the most likely to get protected" or whatever
I guess since it's mylo it would also be a good move to no kill
But not very good for most scumteams here: RC/FL/Gamma seem capable and familiar enough with each other to catch each other out, so if any of them (or two of them) are scum I'd think one of those three would die
If it's mutant/Gamma I'd think an RC/FL NK would happen to remove town's most confident game solvers

also after thinking about it massclaim is bad for town in the situation where an unclaimed PR allows for mylo to be mmaylo (mislynch &

maybe

lose)

How would mamylo mean that it's bad for PRs to claim? The only scenario that could be bad for is if our only other PR is a protective. For every other PR, knowing everyone's roles would help to guide their own.

I mean, the only way it's mmaylo is if there's a protective. So that was kinda my point?
Also protectives can provide soft innos when there's no kill, like I already said

I know those roles exist? I'm just saying that if there's a protective, then that's the situation massclaim is maybe bad. Not really sure why you're arguing with me about that by saying "well there may or may not be a protective"??

Okay this is what we're doing

If you are a PROTECTIVE role (doc or variant) and you targeted anyone besides me you are claiming with your target
if you are a STOPPING role (roleblocker or variant) and you targeted anyone besides MutantDevle you are claiming with your target
If you are jailkeeper who targeted anyone besides me you should claim since it's almost certainly a roleblock

If none of the above conditions are true, you just say pass

pass obviously

pass

Like honestly, I’m the scummiest one here, and the fact more people aren’t pushing me is making me nervous as well.

In hindsight and from scum POV, I feel I’m incredibly obvtown, but I don’t expect players who are town to see that.

I don't agree that you're the scummiest here. That's clearly Gemini. I'd actually go as far to say that you're one of the towniest players here but there's just a nagging thing about you that gives me, and I assume others, doubt that you may actually be really strong scum.

The more I read your posts, however, the more I like what you say. You've inspired a lot of my thought processes this game, primarily the one that resulted in me scum reading Gemini. I'd be comfortable fully trusting you if it wasn't for the fact that I really don't know who Gemini's partner is. I'm not at all interested in voting you any time soon though so I doubt you'll be the game losing mislynch.

@mutant I'd like to see you put in work to identify gemini's partner. gemini can't be solo scum and even if you're unsure who the partner is, putting in that work should reveal more to you about gemini's alignment, which can only be helpful for knowing you're pushing the right lynch and helping others see that

@Irrelephant - I think we have the exact same read on each other, and we’re both just waiting to decide what RC feels like pushing because we’ve plataeu’d and don’t know how to go about doing something so we’re just kinda hoping RC hits scum.

I honestly don't know why y'all gamble on RC this much. This reliance on him to hit right is unhealthy and a complete gamble. From my PoV, it's such a terrible idea. He was wrong about Ircher, I know he's wrong about me, and I strongly believe he is/was (not sure if he is still defending Gemini) wrong to defend Gemini yesterday - who should have been the lynch then. I don't see anything to suggest that RC knows what he is doing. Overconfidence doesn't mean he's always going to be right.

I don't think you and irrel should be at each other's throats, but I don't think that the only reason you shouldn't be is that RC doesn't think you should. If RC agrees with your opinions, then you can take that as a sign that you're right. But don't assume you're wrong if he doesn't.

This is a pretty good AtE to not sheep RC. Honestly if RC is scum here I've been outplayed. From what I understand that happens to many players who play against scum!RC, so I won't feel bad. If you're not scumreading RC though I'm not sure why I shouldn't sheep him - he's the conftowniest player rn.

Overall conclusion: I know my own alignment, I town read irrelephant and Gamma. Hence the only person I don't think is town who is off the wagon is Gemini. Regardless of Irrelephant's alignment, I believe there to be 1 scum off the wagon. So Gemini must be scum.

VOTE: GeminiTwin12

this was the only reason you ever gave for why you were scumreading gemini, ftr.

Great point, esp. cause the quoted post sounds kind of TMI. "Gemini must be scum" is too strong a conclusion here, and it's odd that misreading tw doesn't give mutant pause about his read on Gemini
Who's stungun's partner? Oh, gemini. @gemini can you ask stungun for some thoughts about this game? Curious to hear what he thinks now

I'm curious, how much of that did FL actually write for you?

lol

I'm curious, how much of that did FL actually write for you?

Wait what? You think FL is my partner now?

Like seriously, how?

Unless you think that argument I had with him earlier about him controlling the worst's posts was completely fabricated then I think it's pretty clear that if FL tried to say to me "hey, post this" then I really wouldn't.

If FL was my partner, why would he now be voting me if he had every reason to be pushing Gemini? If we were scum, we'd just need to lynch Gemini to win. He wouldn't have much reason to bus me unless he thought he'd survive the next day - which, from his posts, he clearly doesn't think he will.

This comment here feels to me as if you liked my recent posts but because you're so intent on me being scum you want to justify it as not actually being my thoughts.


RC, if Gemini is town then I really want you to explain why because I really don't see it.

Gemini is confirmed scum to me and they should have died yesterday.

I also honestly don't understand why you scum read me. You started the game town reading but then when you decided Gemini is town you reevaluated on me and from there it's been like I'm confirmed scum to you. You've criticised my every step saying it makes me scum but never really explained how it makes me scummy. You've interpreted my words wrong so many times yet when explained how you've interpreted me wrong you've seemingly made no effort to reevaluate your statements about it. I just don't understand why you have this burning hatred towards me.

This sort of makes me paranoid about RC but not for any actual raisins. If you're right that RC is wrong, please keep working real hard and provide some better raisins. Craisins, even. Also I bolded a thing that again seems too strong a conclusion for you. In what way is it confirmed?

like 7 people on a d1 wagon that flips town
you say 'oh there is probably scum on that wagon'
yes probability states that there is probably scum on that wagon but it doesn't mean you're saying anything meaningful
and the fact that you have extra information {your townreads) changes the probabilities of scum being on or off the wagon

but again I don't recall seeing you ever push something like that as town so hopefully you do in fact know better.

The conclusion isn't about the day 1 wagon. It's about the wagon that formed on Irrelephant. This meant there were 3 people on the wagon and 4 off of it including myself. Furthermore, the conclusion isn't about "there's probably scum on the wagon". It was about how the wagon was formed with the information that no hammer was given. Regardless of Irrelephant's alignment, there is

evidence to suggest that Gemini is scum if I am to assume my town reads are correct

.

And we've never played a game together so I don't understand your final statement. Unless you're trying to say you've meta dived me? If you have then you should really know how this game is nothing like my scum games. At all.

Okay but
1) what evidence? I still haven't seen you like quote anything of gemini's to discuss it or actually dissect what gemini is saying. I mean I guess my bad for giving scum advice here but it's true
2) this is a big if! No?

VOTE: Gemini

I'm unlikely to move from this vote tbh. The only alternative I'm really feeling at the moment is a no lynch.

I am curious why no lynch hasn't come up before now
But I guess with potential killstopping roles no lynch doesn't make as much sense as lynch, probably

Gemini is the only mislynch you guys are trying for and if lynching you first helps him lynch gemini why wouldn't he?
Furthermore: why would you feel the need to argue that you're not scum with flavor leaf if you were town

I was about to argue that since you scum read FL so much there is no chance he could win on his own and that we'd need to win today. But then I realised that even if we did lynch scum today we'd still be in mylo hence having Gemini lynched at any point would mean we would win. So it's fair enough I guess that from your PoV that we could be scum with that plan. But I'm telling you you're wrong.

And ofc course I'm going to argue I'm not scum with FL because I'm not scum... furthermore, I don't think FL is scum either so I will defend him from any push. If FL is scum then he'll be caught. I feel certain about that.

What do you mean saying you don't think FL is scum but if he is he'll be caught? Not by you, so..?

I will say mutant, if scum, is doing a great job of misdirecting who his partner is. I feel like his associatives are bouncing my head back and forth like a tennis game "It's gemini! It's flavor leaf! It's gemini! Hmmmm"


where's gamma

I think mutant/FL would kill RC or you
I think mutant/RC would... hm. Kill you? No kill? Interesting question.

I thought RC was your strongest town read?

He is

But the best town don't make it to mylo
The best scum do

You don't know I'm not confbiasing, I guess?
The fact that I'm second guessing enough to not be voting either of you rn I guess is how you know?

I didn't realize you weren't voting either of us, but that's beside the point, did you see anything reading that didn't feel like it fit with the idea of me and mutant being scum?
And fair point about who makes it to mylo

No not really
Maybe like one or two "hmm that might not be s/s" little moments but

please don't make me spend time on this game when I have better things to do

spend time on this game when you have better things to do
You signed up for it

I want to know

why

FL isn't scum if that's the case
And you/gemini is my paranoia case that you lurking is doing nothing to help

Hopefully most of this speaks for itself. If I'm allowed I can also show you the work I did in my friemd pt to arrive at saving mutant last night

[Irrelephant11]

mutant is conftown. RC is 98% conftown. All that's left fmpov is to choose the right one of fl/gemini in the 2% chance RC is scum watcher enabler who no-killed N2.

Also to argue with the scum fakeclaim that seems inevitable I guess

[Irrelephant11]

wow I actually just made the game saving doctor move
I'm more than a little giddy rn

[Irrelephant11]

So I'm not allowed to copy from my friemd thread
I'll paraphrase, then. It went something like...

If I get shot, oh well, so assume I won't get shot:
If mutant & gemini are the team, they'll probably shoot FL
If mutant & FL are the team, they'll probably shoot gemini
If mutant & RC are the team (not likely), they'll probably shoot gemini
If FL & gemini are the team, they'll probably shoot mutant
If FL & RC are the team, they'll probably shoot mutant
If RC & gemini are the team, they'll probably shoot mutant

I don't think it's 1 or 3, so I'm gonna save mutant
Oh but what if mutant is scum
No, wait, just look at gemini/FL D1 interactions - they're the team, probably, and even if it's RC with one of them (would blow my mind, given I saved RC) this is still the right move

*a bunch more thoughts*

Yeah I'm right I'm gonna go PM schadd to doctor mutant

[Irrelephant11]

I took the slot because Shoshin is always correctly townread as town

Does scum have daychat or is gemini just silently trying to figure out her fakeclaim at this point

Also there's no chance scum no-killed last night right?

[Irrelephant11]

Mafia will be able to communicate with each other during day phases.

Ah lame

Well I'm still curious to see what they come up with

[Irrelephant11]

- It did matter who was shot because scum knew they had to avoid whatever prevented the N2 kill (either by hitting PR (which mutant semi-hinted multiple times) or hitting a player the PR wouldn't protect)
- I think you thought mutant was a jailkeeper, you did the kill, and then started the day by pretending you thought mutant saved you (indeed, this fits with my you-as-scum-think-mutant-is-the-pr and therefore-you'd-try-to-kill-him theory that I used to save him)
-Good to know you're willing to bus
-Are you suggesting RC is scum with gemini?

[Irrelephant11]

yeah what

[Irrelephant11]

..... huh

[Irrelephant11]

umm gimme a minute

[Irrelephant11]

this just isn't what I was expecting and I'm confused

[Irrelephant11]

Mafia _____
Mafia _____

Town Odd-night Watcher
Town Odd-night Roleblocker
Town Doctor
Town Watcher Enabler (negative utility)
Vanilla Town x3 (who all happen to be dead?)

[Irrelephant11]

I guess it could be mafia tracker who tracked the roleblocker no wait he roleblocked him so that doesn't make sense
Oh yes it does it's just gemini is the tracker then

I guess this makes some sense
v curious about gemini claim

[Irrelephant11]

I did pick up on it! It was one of the strongest reasons I had to townread you when I was otherwise thinking you were pretty scummy
fmpov mutant is conftown still, yes.

Also anyone who was killed last night had nothing to do with mislynchyness and everything to do with trying to outguess prs

[Irrelephant11]

It's kinda nice you were odd night because otherwise we'd probably be a lot more confused about RC
Not that he's 100% confirmed? But prolly close to it

[Irrelephant11]

happy 2018

[Irrelephant11]

I shouldn't really have to tryhard here but I have decided I'm going to tryhard here anyway

I mean, this game is on you at this point.

We’re in a direct 2v2 with you on the side.

I can case why the scum team is Mutant/Irrelephant if you’d like. I already made a post on it in my pt with Profii.

Partners slip?
Town!FL would know it could still be RC/gemini who no-kill'd night 2 to prove gemini's fake claim
mutant is the only one 100% confirmed town fmpov
VOTE: gemini is the only one 100% confirmed scum

If we lose we lose because our first two lynches were shit ftr

Ircher basically gt and y'all quicklynched TW while I wasn't here

I actually was thinking about this when deciding on the save. I asked myself: Why haven't I gotten any lynch I wanted?
FL & Gemini. I didn't get to decide anything about the D1 lynch because I was absent when gemini hammered (neither mutant nor I were around)
I didn't get to vote mutant like I said I was going to D2 because FL hammered tw before I got back from v/la
I didn't get the mutant vote yesterday mostly because of you, but meanwhile Flavor TMI'd the lynch when Gamma looked really very scummy and FL had been saying it right up until he was the lynch (and Gamma didn't do anything at the time to deserve a townread)

Let me know if you want me to talk more, RC. Flavor is saying a lot of half truths which is frustrating and I want to argue but if my talking would just get in the way of you solving I don't want to get in the way

Honestly I'm not having fun being in the 1v1 I made the right choice in the night phase and now I feel like I'm being punished for it
RC you were never the night target last night by the way, every pair of scum should have shot outside of semiconf!town for the win, as the doctor would have to correctly identify who their fellow townie was. Gemini's fake claim is fake

[Irrelephant11]

I asked Shoshin if she had thoughts. The below are paraphrased:

Mutant has to be town, because a scum roleblocker could have roleblocked the doctor while the other scum did the kill, guaranteeing a win

What am I missing? RC should see this clearly: mutant is confirmed town. That means it's FL with one of you(Irrelephant) or gemini, and a lynch on FL is always a lynch on scum.

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin pointed out:

VOTE: Gamma

GG. Gemeni and I were scum.

And the associatives I used to determine the team last night:

Hello all!

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

I only voted Flavor Leaf an an opener, why exactly are you voting them @Irrelephant11?

It's someone YOU currently think is scum tho, we're day 1, page 2. Anything about them so far that makes you believe they are scum, besides not voting for The Worst with you initially.

mm but I'm right
tw lied so just try to tell me how he's town

why do I need more than a scumclaim to vote someone
the fact you haven't unvoted means you agree anyway

It doesn't mean I agree, I don't see anything AI from them yet. (Like I said, it was an opener) I'm going to have to see more content from them before I unvote.

[Irrelephant11]

all the scumteams feel pretty awful at this point

Reminder that we were both townreading gemini for things she would never do as scum

unless

she was flavor's partner
I'd love to see gemini's crumbs I actually have no clue why anyone ever thought she might claim doctor

Another partner indicative moment

So basically I townread the fact that you're not joining FL on the gemini train, which is I guess a conditional townread that assumes both town!FL and town!GT
Another way of saying this I guess is that I think your only two plausible partners at this point are FL and gemini

(I was talking to Gamma here)

How does me + flavor leaf work out as as plausible partners?

[Irrelephant11]

Anyway long story short I believe in your ability to sort this RC (and in the 2% chance you're scum you'll just win by voting me so whatever)
Shoshin thinks it's obvious that mutant is conftown fypov and that FL is always the correct lynch for you here
I'm going to be pissed if I made two correct doctor saves (one that no one could have seen coming) and still lose but I'm pretty hopeful that won't happen

let me know if you have questions

[Irrelephant11]

Oh one more thing (a big piece of how I figured it out last night)

I effed up the quote thingy but Essentially it was a response to your recent post @Irrelephant.

I said: "I agree with this ^ and it's making me believe that FL might not be scum here simply because you really shouldn't add your partner in as bait to be lynched but this is just logically speaking."

Gemini agreed with me that FL is towny because Gamma brought attention to FL while he was being lynched
Except that never happened
I misremembered something mutant did as something Gamma did and gemini used my incorrect memory to give FL towncred

VOTE: Gamma

I think Mutant is the partner and not FL because FL just directly scum aligned themselves with Gamma with their recent postings instead of just biting the bullet (so to speak) and voting them (in the case of Scum!FL)

She does the same here when FL last-second changes his mind on Gamma
It was a pretty obvious attempt to get me/mutant to doctor incorrectly by trying to ascribe towncred to FL

[Irrelephant11]

Also if/when you see mutant as conftown there's no way I as scum 100% confirm him town to start this game day
That should rule out me/flavor team btw

[Irrelephant11]

You had to make a fake claim. Like objectively that's what any scum in your situation has to do - Either I've cleared the entire town or you fake claim, those are the options.

You were protecting RC for why??????

lollllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
you clearly haven't been a doctor for one second. The reason RC is the right person to protect N1/N2 is because they're the semi-IC, not because their reads were great (which they weren't at any point this game, given you and I were his strongest townreads most of the game)

pedit: I don't know about scumslip (I think it was an intentional joke), but it's certainly not nothing

[Irrelephant11]

If you think we're scum what's the point of your question
Just accuse one or both of us of misrepping you

Also, which of mutant/flavor do you think is town?

[Irrelephant11]

You have two minutes remaining before I conclude Flavor is deciding for you

[Irrelephant11]

Yes that is what I mean

[Irrelephant11]

Then lynch FL
Shoshin thinks it's your best lynch

pedit: I tunneled FL D1? I'll go look I guess

[Irrelephant11]

Oh you mean to get us out of RVS?

It's a thing I learned from Shoshin that I wanted to implement here to force AI content early
Check out our American Presidents game to see where she did it that I learned from
Given we were friemds I wanted to try it out

[Irrelephant11]

It did force AI content early but I didn't know well enough how to understand that AI content until much later

[Irrelephant11]

No, if mutant is town FL is the best lynch
If mutant's claim is believable he's town

[Irrelephant11]

mutant is never a scum odd-night roleblocker (would have won last night)
mutant is never town when I'm scum (I wouldn't block a mislynch like this)

[Irrelephant11]

The only way I will be happy with you rn is if you're scum stalling for a way to get a mislynch

This is so insanely obvious I'm actually angry
But don't let me AtE you,,,,

HOW IS GEMINI A DOCTOR
HOW WERE YOU THE KILL LAST NIGHT
in what world am I not the doctor??????????????????

[Irrelephant11]

FL regardless of your alignment you should vote gemini
If you're town you'll hit scum
If you're scum you'll hit scum and look townier than RC does rn and maybe have a chance next lylo

[Irrelephant11]

who me?
Do what, be angry?

[Irrelephant11]

You're actually confirmed town I'm just trying to freaking win
This isn't hard and I think you should see this more clearly than you are
I'm upset about it and trying to trick someone I think is scum into lylo bussing so that I can prove my status without needing your vote

I'll leave the thread now I'm not going to lose because you're upset that I'm upset
Good luck figuring it out lmk if you have more questions for me or shoshin and I'll try to calm down before I come back and read them

[Irrelephant11]

yeah, I get it, it looks scummy. I've played a freaking fantastic doctor game and I'm confident enough that you'll see that when you try that you won't scumread me for angry play in lylo

I wouldn't actually think he looked townier than you and I know mutant wouldn't either, I was trying to appeal to "gimme the towncred" FL to do the thing that ruins his own game. I guess I'll just ruin that play by saying this because I think you're town anyway.

But go ahead and find a way to read that as us being partners somehow and then lynch me
I still played amazing this game and the loss won't be my fault.

[Irrelephant11]

actual bye

[Irrelephant11]

shoshin is around and willing to talk
I'll do my best at paraphrasing

[Irrelephant11]

RC. I’m town. I’d never have gotten this far with you as town and me as scum duping you this hard, along with Maria.

FL sure is good at appealing to ego

That means for me to believe that you two are town, i have to believe RC is scum, and this is townRC.

I no longer have any paranoia about RC being scum though so that's nice

RC did you want to talk to shoshin rn while we're all online? idk how often this will happen

[Irrelephant11]

Something like:

"Where's your head at? Do you have uncertainty/concerns about mutant? Irrelephant? Why are you townreading FL (if anything)? I'd like to clear things up for you, but I don't know what you're thinking."

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin:

I was under the impression she was town because one time I saw her play as maf and she asked two awkward questions and then replaced out. After her slot's flip I thought she just generally couldn't take the pressure of having a red role. It seemed unlikely that she would

choose

a scum slot.
I now see that FL has been coaching the crap out of her. It's also possible she didn't have a choice but to be scum
Her vote has been key on multiple town lynches and everything regarding her being a doctor is completely and obviously bs.

Looking back, it's also now obvious that FL was playing from an informed POV. In the context of each flip it's v scummy how he always knew more than he should while making sure he got his way as scum

[Irrelephant11]

Me about gemini:

I was partially sheeping Shoshin's confident gemini townread, partially sheeping your confident gemini townread, and I separately came to the same conclusion as you that she was v unlikely to be scum unless Flavor was her partner, given the way she handled the D1 lynch. I'd also add that stungun as a friemd would

also

be very helpful for scum!gemini, regardless of stungun's alignment

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin just posted the same thing about stungun probably coaching her while I was writing the above post.

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin wants you to look at gemini's progression on Gamma last game day from "idk" to "definitely scum"
She thinks it's very fake

[Irrelephant11]

At the time I thought FL's approach to the gamma wagon was basically a scumclaim in terms of him claiming to think a mylo lynch was town and not really doing anything about it while letting it go through and then trying to be townread for it

meh

Can I ask if/why you no longer feel this way? I thought it was a reason to townread him upon Gamma's red flip but the way you're describing it is exactly how I now see it

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin has a huge scumtell thing for you to look at for gemini (this will not be fun to paraphrase)

[Irrelephant11]

I'm not getting pings from Gamma, gut feeling that they're least likely to be scum. I dont see them actively "doing anything". If that makes sense. I wanted you out of the pool Mutant because you have more consistency compared to Flavor Leaf yes but I'm still getting scum pings because you seem to believe that I'm actually scum and I'm not, and It's easier for you to stay on me to get me mislynched in the case of scum!Mutant. That's my main thing. Also, How can I be scum with anyone here but you have "reasons" to only scumread me?

Gemini says "I'm not getting pings from Gamma... least likely to be scum"

Had intentions of responding asap, I have taxing things to deal with, that being said here are some thoughts regarding this.

I have a question

If Mutant wasn't scum, who would the scumteam be?

Irrelephant + Gamma? = That feels to..perfect. Too good to be true, if that makes sense because I've town read Rel mostly and Gamma isn't giving me pings. Also because earlier Gamma was scum reading them and if that was for distancing purposes..it wasn't really needed at the time.

Irrelephant + Flavor Leaf?= Flavor's been scum reading Rel often this game, if they're partners they he just threw him under the bus and backed over it several times throughout.

Gamma + Flavor Leaf?= maybe from a PoE standpoint but I don't see anything direct to actually support it this. Thoughts on this would be helpful.

Flavor Leaf + RC?= it's not out of the realm of possibility given them, It just doesn't seem as likely to me given how extra their play would feel. I'm saying that it's not..cohesive, doesn't make sense because RC could have just jumped on any slot FL was on and vice versa.

Gamma + RC?= Not much interaction to gauge how likely this is. Gut feeling is telling me no but if someone seems something I don't then I'm all ears of course.

RC+ Irrelephant?= Feels the same as Flavor + RC.

Here she has no clue who's scum but doesn't think it's Gamma, who isn't pinging them

Distancing is usually the reason if you're scum @Flavor Leaf. (I don't mean "you" and in you personally, I mean in general)

That being said - @Irrelephant on the case of Gamma/FL together - I mean..it's a possibility yeah, for me in terms of PoE but I don't see direct things to support it so I don't know.

She says "idk I guess it could maybe be gamma but I don't see it"

VOTE: Gamma

I think Mutant is the partner and not FL because FL just directly scum aligned themselves with Gamma with their recent postings instead of just biting the bullet (so to speak) and voting them (in the case of Scum!FL)

"Yeah, it's Gamma".
And she hammers.

This isn't town changing her mind, it's scum finding her way onto a mislynch without progression. Given Stungun is her friemd, if she was town, do you really think this is what her progression would look like? If he was trying to help her sort there would be a lot more depth to the read. It's shallow, waffle-y, and fake.

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin is insistent that the big thing here is the lack of depth to the read - gemini would be more thoughtful, sure, but especially in mylo with stungun as the partner trying to help her sort. He's the tryhardiest and there's no way he'd let her participate in a mislynch in such a lame way

[Irrelephant11]

Shoshin is happy to hear you say mutant is town

I agree that would be nice

[Irrelephant11]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf
this works too