Newbie 1889: Ice Cream (Game Over)

[volxen]

fos: NotNova for the time being for his questionable reasoning behind scumreading me.

[MarioManiac4]

ceejayvinoya replaces UC Voyager.

[MarioManiac4]

horrordude0215 has been prodded, they have (expired on 2018-09-16 06:09:57) to post or they will be replaced.

angel7399 has been prodded, she has (expired on 2018-09-16 06:09:57) to post or she will be replaced.

[RCEnigma]

Yikes. Hi there Ceejay. Unfortunately we are in the process of lynching you......again q.q

[ceejayvinoya]

Lols.

Gimme a while to catch up

[ceejayvinoya]

Is it serious or is it a "Lynch lurkers" kind of lynch?

[RCEnigma]

We're lurk lynching.

[ceejayvinoya]

No intents yet. So I guess I'm fine.

VOTE: Volxen

I feel that he is needlessly extending his posts, most of those could have been shorter.

I don't have any strong scumreads yet, but I think I would like to get UC's attention. So:

VOTE: UCvoyager

UCvoyager is now at L-1

I don't understand his mentality on voting lurkers either. Does he think his vote would drag a lurker into the thread? I feel that his vote on my slot at that point was opportunistic and not really town motivated.

Sure he has no strong scumreads but doesn't he want to pursue his other scumreads? Regardless of how less scummy they are? Rather than voting someone with almost no content?

[Reundo]

I explained why wagons are good when asked directly why I was trying to make a wagon, so...

I meant to say you did explain why wagons in general are good, but not that the RCEnigma wagon in particular is good. It seemed counter-intiuitive to talk about your theory to playing the game instead of just playing the game (i.e. following up with RCEnigma, explaining your scum-read, etc.).

Except when I was asked why I thought the wagon was good I answered that question also.

You can argue maybe I should have been more self-motivated forthcoming - but to argue I was avoiding providing my thoughts is clearly incorrect. Am I missing something here? I feel like this point as I understand it is silly, but you seem very serious about it. Clarify?

I was talking about solely in RVS. You did explain why RCEnigma was good to wagon later on, yes, but not when you were asking other for votes during the start of RVS, and the fact that you didn't do this in that moment is what I thought was scummy, or at least not very town motivated.

I'm bolding the part you sidestepped in your answer.

How is this a sidestep? I literally acknowledged that you did later on did elaborate on why you wanted to lynch RCEnigma, but when you were talking to volxen you were discussing more why wagons in general were good instead of the RCEnigma wagon specifically, and the fact you didn't address this in that moment was what irked me.

The flaw in your theory is that I wasn't scum-reading you for "not having discussion" -- it was based on you neither following up on RCE's response nor explaining why exactly RCE was scummy to you, but I did both of those with regards to you. If, say, I were to ask you questions and then completely ignored your response yet still scum-read you, then you'd have a point with calling me a hypocrite, but as it stands what you're describing as hypocritical is again not actually hypocritical, and I'm really struggling to see where you're coming from here.

It's mostly the "Thor posting his vote in his second vote and his reasons in his third vote vs. RCE doing both in his second vote" thing.
Like, what was my scum motive of waiting to be asked my reasons and then being fine with presenting them anyway?
What did that gain me?

The thing about "waiting to be asked my reasons" is that as scum it allows you to only put forth as much effort as deemed necessary. If you can get by without explaining your reads, that's perfect, and if someone questions you on your read then you can just explain your read and drive suspicion away. There wasn't much initiative, in a sense -- I feel town would be more inclined to explain their reads instead of needlessly waiting for someone to "ask them", especially when they're looking to drive up a wagon against them.

How is *that* scummy but finding something scummy and attacking it without waiting for answers is totally awesome?
I feel like you should think that either town is obligated to do a deeper dive, or that town is fine reacting to stuff.

I still don't get how you're connecting my posts with your own. Like sure, you can find someone scummy w/o having an in-depth conversation with them and getting into the thought process behind their actions, but I was never scum-reading you for wanting to wagon someone "without conversation".

At 7:56pm I ask for the extra vote.
At 8:30pm I explain the theory behind my push.
At 7:44am I explain my reaction to his response.

What did I gain my scum self by hiding the truth for less than 12 hours?
Is the claim that I needed to sleep on it to get my evil explanation in order?
Walk me through this slowly.

You're missing the fact that in between the last two posts a notable wagon has built up against you, so you were almost forced to explain your reasoning in that sense. If no one questioned you on your RCEnigma scum-read or wagoned you for it then I'm not sure if you would've ever elaborated on it. Again, I don't see much town motive behind "hiding the truth" -- like I said above, scum gain a lot more from doing things only when asked of them whereas town are more likely to just do things without having to be asked to do so.

Those are reads he's given regardless, so I don't see how he could be avoiding doing so. Do you disagree with those reads?

I also think him dropping Vloxen to null because Vloxen hasn't questioned me on stuff recently reads kind of shallow and odd.

Do you not agree that you were a major talking point of D1? To only engage with you during RVS and not give his take on you at all despite engaging with people on other topics reads to me like he was disengaged with the game. Also, that was only half of my reasoning for scum-reading him -- the other half was his reluctance to give out reads. Do you think holding back reads is particularly towny?

Skimming through xwing's ISO and comparing it to their other game, I almost feel like they're... playing up their newbieness?

In Newbie 1886 they seemed to be contributing most by asking questions and giving short, but fairly noncommittal reasoning for whatever they were doing. Here, they seem much more eager to please - essentially immediately apologizing whenever they get pressured and doing pretty much exactly as they are told - almost out of fear of being perceived as scum. Playing the newbie card is really quite easy to fake and in my experience tends to make other people more forgiving of whatever screw-ups they might be up to. I'm seeing a decided lack of initiative after that borderline-gaffe with L-1 at the beginning of the game. This can be interpreted as natural newbie hesitation, but it seems a lot more played-up to me in this game ("excuse my newbie questions", "I'm really trying to help town!"). The fact that they seem to really be trying to appease me isn't helping me much - I can easily see this coming from scum!xwing in an effort to appease me and diver suspicion. They've mostly tried a lot more to appear cordial compared to their first game where even when pressed they seemed less affected and overall more skeptical.

I only really see xwing being "eager to please" during early RVS, and recently I don't think he's been that willing to back down from his opinions. Xwing said in their last game that they wanted to work on their D1 entrances since they got scum-read quite a bit for it their last game, so I think him apologizing is more him realizing his entrances need some work than scum trying to back down per-say. I think xwing did care a bit too much about how he looked early game, but a lot of newbies make the mistake of needing to look townie as town instead of just acting naturally and letting their towny-ness just naturally show its colors. In my last game for instance, a player constantly talked about no-lynching during D1 despite being repeatedly told numerous times and one of the reasons he didn't back down sooner was because he thought it would make him look "scummy" and he ended up flipping town, so I think being "eager to please" can come easily from scum and inexperienced town. Also, be careful about scum-reading someone just because there's some differences between this game and his last one -- you only know whether or not it's indicative of scum once you've seen their scum game. I also disagree that xwing is "lacking initiative" -- they seem very eager to posts their thoughts on the game w/o having to be probed by others, and a lot of it comes off as natural to me.

Gonna try to give some thoughts on Thor, Reundo and RCE when I find some more time, for now I'll just comment this: reading some early game stuff again, I notice Reundo and RCE seem to be mindmelding a lot. You could chalk it up to your history, but I really hope it's not affecting your judgement. If possible, I'd like you two to give some more thoughts on each other's play, even if it's the most minor things sticking out - would help a lot in trying to read you.

I'm not really seeing anything too worthy of mention tbqh. The only thing that's sticking out is that he's holding onto vote a lot longer this game than last game, in which he always had his vote on someone D1. I won't really say it's AI though, partly because I don't know if this is scum-AI from him since I haven't seen him play scum, and partly because this game is a lot different from last game -- a third of the players have hardly posted at all until quite recently -- so I wouldn't really expect him to place a vote on anyone when there's not many players that are vote-worthy to begin with.

Quick question is I haven't read through all of XWings game, was he lynched at any point? I'm assuming he was town but I'll bring it up in a read for Xwing after that's answered.

Sorry for the slow answer to your quick question, but no, xwing was never lynched.

I don't have any strong scumreads yet, but I think I would like to get UC's attention. So:

VOTE: UCvoyager

UCvoyager is now at L-1

I don't understand his mentality on voting lurkers either. Does he think his vote would drag a lurker into the thread? I feel that his vote on my slot at that point was opportunistic and not really town motivated.

Sure he has no strong scumreads but doesn't he want to pursue his other scumreads? Regardless of how less scummy they are? Rather than voting someone with almost no content?

How do you feel about the other players who voted your slot? Can't the same be said for them that they should be pursuing other scum-reads instead of voting for someone with no content as well?


UPDATED READS:
Volxen's last post strikes me as way too defensive, and not having any scum-reads at all besides the lurking slot is troubling. In fact, I don't even know what his town reads are, really. Agree with RCEnigma that horror's catch-up post wasn't anything amazing. It wasn't scummy per-say, but there's nothing in there that can't be faked easily by scum. What's interesting is that he doesn't really comment on me at all whereas he seems to have a snippet or two for everyone else. Also not really scummy, just a bit weird. Ceejay hasn't posted enough for me to read him on, but volxen is a good vote. If we're really going for a lurker lynch today, then I feel angel is by far the best lynch. What's the chances that three players in a row decide to ditch their slot as town? I think it's far more likely that they just flaked because they didn't want to play scum, and that's far more likely to be AI than UCVoyager's site flake, which could easily be him just not having motivation to play the game in general (unless UCVoyager is historically more likely to flake as scum, but it's decidedly known for a fact that scum are far more likely to replace out than town in newbies, and replacing two, maybe going onto three, times in a row doesn't make me feel optimistic about it flipping town).

{Thor, angel} are my priority lynches for the day, and I feel there's decent partner synergy in there as well. I'll give ceejay the time to post, but horror has little excuse for his continued lack of posting, so if he doesn't make anything else substantial today I'd be fine with lynching him as well. I can faintly see a world in which Thor flips town, but the probability of wind flipping town is depressingly dim, and this would be the best lurker lynch by far if that's the route we're taking today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: angel7399

[Reundo]

Forgot to mention this, but I can definitely go for a volxen lynch today too, though I still have a few town points for him, primarily towards the way he treated Thor during RVS. I feel like RCEnima might have a meta reason for disagreeing with my volxen read, but I might be mistaken on that. I can also see some decent partner synergy between volxen/Thor from volxen's reluctance to comment on Thor specifically despite being asked by both me and NotNova. I think he's really overdue for a reads list at this point.

[Thor665]

If your case against me is that I am more likely to be scum compared to the other low-content posters because of the timing of my “I’m getting caught up” post, then, to quote Reundo, I would say your case is pretty damn “flim flam”.

The thing about "waiting to be asked my reasons" is that as scum it allows you to only put forth as much effort as deemed necessary. If you can get by without explaining your reads, that's perfect, and if someone questions you on your read then you can just explain your read and drive suspicion away.

I don't follow this.
So, as scum, i have a reason - but I intentionally don't tell it to...avoid telling it, then, if asked, I can tell it and look town.
Why, as scum, hide my town looking reason in the first place then?
To avoid doing something that will make me look town?
This is sounding very much like a playstyle disagreement at best to me - why are you so convinced it's scummy?

{Thor, angel} are my priority lynches for the day, and I feel there's decent partner synergy in there as well.

Can you describe this partner synergy?
Clearly you are scum for not describing it immediately

[RCEnigma]

I'd also rather vote Angel here. Not that Ceejay is the most active poster and I think his vote isnt based on the overall game. Not sure how far back he has read so it seems like a reach for the first thing that pinged him about his wagon.

[ceejayvinoya]

I don't have any strong scumreads yet, but I think I would like to get UC's attention. So:

VOTE: UCvoyager

UCvoyager is now at L-1

I don't understand his mentality on voting lurkers either. Does he think his vote would drag a lurker into the thread? I feel that his vote on my slot at that point was opportunistic and not really town motivated.

Sure he has no strong scumreads but doesn't he want to pursue his other scumreads? Regardless of how less scummy they are? Rather than voting someone with almost no content?

How do you feel about the other players who voted your slot? Can't the same be said for them that they should be pursuing other scum-reads instead of voting for someone with no content as well?

The others are fine, I think those go something like "this player will just lurk through the game he's not worth keeping" and if you're out of options, lynching a lurker isn't a bad idea.

Volxen pinged me in particular because most of his posts question or comment something on the thread but has no clear stance (is this scummy or towny?). I'm seeing this apparent lack of sorting as scummy. The others I can understand, they have at least some ideas for themselves on who they think is town.

I just don't understand why he would pressure a slot for content to hopefully sort it when he doesn't even sort more active posters. I feel like he's mostly just fence-sitting.

[ceejayvinoya]

I'd also rather vote Angel here. Not that Ceejay is the most active poster and I think his vote isnt based on the overall game. Not sure how far back he has read so it seems like a reach for the first thing that pinged him about his wagon.

This is true, I skimmed most of the game. I can get behind an Angel vote but I'd prefer Volxen's.

[NotNova]

Nova, is there a particular reason why you singled me out compared to the other players with low-content? In 115 you voted for me and called me out after I had made a post (101) indicating that I was in the process of getting caught up in the thread. You called me out for lurking, but you didn’t call anyone else out and it came across like the only reason why it bothered you is because I made that post before I would have gotten prodded, as opposed to making it after I got prodded. In the very next post in the thread, 116, UC made a similar “I need to get caught up” post, but it didn’t phase you at all. Literally the only difference between my “I need to get caught up” post and UC’s “I need to get caught up” post is that I made mine before I would have gotten prodded, and he made his after he got prodded.

That's some shoddy reading comprehension. I clearly said I was getting frustrated with EVERYONE who was lurking, I just thought the circumstances regarding YOUR lurking were more likely to be incriminating. If you'll notice, UC has now completely flaked - so it's perfectly reasonable to assume he literally did not have time to post more (amounting to his prod dodges being in vain and IMO not alignment-indicative), whereas you were active lurking and bringing hardly anything new to the table with what you did contribute to the thread.

In the very next post in the thread, 116, UC made a similar “I need to get caught up” post, but it didn’t phase you at all. Literally the only difference between my “I need to get caught up” post and UC’s “I need to get caught up” post is that I made mine before I would have gotten prodded, and he made his after he got prodded. Also, at the time you made 115, Horrordude only had two posts (6 and 72), one of which was his RVS vote and the other being his “I need to catch up” post. UC also had only two posts (16 and 52) at the time you made 115, and again here one of his posts was a unvote/vote and the other was a “I need to catch up post”. I, on the other hand, had 5 posts (17, 19, 21, 40, and 101) at the time you made 115, and 3 out of those 5 posts contained serious game-related content. The fact of the matter is that I had more game-related content than both Horror and UC

combined

at the time you made 115, but out of us three “lurkers” the

ONLY

thing that stuck out to you was the fact that I made my “I’m getting caught up” post before getting prodded as opposed to making it after getting prodded? Seriously?

I was completely fed up with all three of you, and I had to pick one to push - what do you want from me, to push three different lynches at once? I had to make a decision between no content and mostly empty, non-committal active-lurking and I picked the latter. If your best defense is "these guys were doing it too, but I posted slightly more!" then count me as thinking it's a pretty terrible one. Active lurking is more incriminating than regular lurking (from two SEs, no less, who really ought to know that lurking isn't good town-play.) Thus I'm willing to subject it to more scrutiny and accept it as an argument for scumreading you prima facie. And yes, context and timing are perfectly relevant factors in determining whether or not something is scummy.

You haven't given me much reason to excuse your lurking - out of you, horrordude and ceejay, I pick you, even though you all have a stain on your record. I believe I have shown why this is the case.

If you had equally called all three of us out in 115If you had equally called all three of us out in 115 for having low-content, that would have been one thing. But you completely ignored UC’s and Horror’s own lack of content and hammered down on me solely because of the timing of my “I’m getting caught up” post. And then in 179, you continued to double down on me while still basically ignoring UC’s lack of content (you briefly name dropped him here but that was it). And here you also praised Horror for making a catch-up post, while downplaying my exchange with and questioning of xwing, as if that’s somehow not legitimate game-related content.

Again, I can't push three different lynches at once, unless I want to look completely bonkers. Horror's holistic approach to a catch-up offers much more perspective FMPOV than your entire push on xwing which was already mostly explained by the time you started it. I'll note that you gave up pushing xwing's buttons only after Thor pretty much spelled out that it isn't happening and everyone agreed to lynch lurkers, putting UC at L-1 without any original reasoning of yours at all - just as I thought it was scummy coming from xwing then I think it's scummy coming from you. Maybe you should have thought about finding those scumreads of yours instead, but I suppose it's easier to skate by sheeping the wagon?

If you had equally called all three of us out in 115 If your case against me is that I am more likely to be scum compared to the other low-content posters because of the timing of my “I’m getting caught up” post, then, to quote Reundo, I would say your case is pretty damn “flim flam”.

If you want me to consider what you've been doing townplay, you should have seriously put a lot more effort. To note: not posting any serious reads up until this point, not analyzing the biggest wagon incriminating context to your actions, not showing any initiative other than pushing the buttons of the most lynchbaity player in the thread until it was obvious he wasn't going to get lynched and overall just avoiding any meaningful dialogue with most of the active players in the thread. If you're town, you're not giving me much reason to believe otherwise - screaming "your case is garbage!" might have worked for Thor, but unfortunately for you, your defense is mostly garbage. Couldn't you have spent the time writing this post to do, I don't know, literally anything you've been asked to? Surely you agree that would be a much better way for you to prove you're not scum?

Also, you must not have been paying much attention, because you're quoting Thor from his defense in his wagon on him. Lack of scrutiny and attention to detail for the big event of D1? How could I possibly not interpret that as towny?

fos: NotNova for the time being for his questionable reasoning behind scumreading me.

What a lazy accusation. You could have gone through my ISO and found incriminating evidence against me, explained my dastardly scum motivations, shown how I've been unfolding my master-plan, or even explained why my reasoning being "questionable" shows that I am scum. Instead, all you can say is "he's suspecting me of being scum, so I will suspect him, too!" You're not infallible, I can suspect you of being scum until proven otherwise. I can safely say you've done absolutely no real proving at all.

At this point I'm perfectly satisfied on volxen as a counter-wagon, even if I am wary of ceejay (who is basically fighting for his life atm) putting the wagon in motion. He is without a doubt my top scumread for today.

Reundo, I urge you to reconsider. Town gains absolutely nothing from lynching angel today as there are no meaningful associatives if they flip scum or meaningful wagon analysis we can do if they flip town - defending angel as your scumpartner at this point of the game is tantamount to suicide. I believe both that the case against volxen is both strong enough for him to be lynched and that it gives town much better info on D2 whichever way they flip.

This goes without saying, but I'm staying off of ceejay's wagon unless something seriously incriminating comes along.

[RCEnigma]

Reundo, I urge you to reconsider. Town gains absolutely nothing from lynching angel today as there are no meaningful associatives if they flip scum or meaningful wagon analysis we can do if they flip town - defending angel as your scumpartner at this point of the game is tantamount to suicide. I believe both that the case against volxen is both strong enough for him to be lynched and that it gives town much better info on D2 whichever way they flip.

And what is gained if Volxen flips town?

Even if we are lynching non associated scum it's win/win for town. We run into the same issues with angel that we had with UC. Except UC has replaced out now. Say we don't lynch Angel today and Angel actually is Scum. I don't think we gain info after a scum flip there either since there is all the incentive to buss and none to really back Angel up.

[NotNova]

Also, sorry everyone, but I really won't have time to go over all of Reundo, RCE and Thor.

I've tempered my opinion of Thor because he's still intent on engaging Reundo in a back and forth, even though it's pretty obvious neither of them is going to get lynched (IMO, at least.)

Reundo's remarks pacified me a bit regarding xwing — it might well have been paranoia and overanalysis on my part. If volxen gets lynched today and flips scum, I'll consider xwing mostly cleared, for now I'll call it a scumlean on xwing.

Also Angel, horrordude, xwing, really expecting you guys to give your take on which wagon you'd support right now. No use fence-sitting, the deadline is approaching soon.

[NotNova]

Reundo, I urge you to reconsider. Town gains absolutely nothing from lynching angel today as there are no meaningful associatives if they flip scum or meaningful wagon analysis we can do if they flip town - defending angel as your scumpartner at this point of the game is tantamount to suicide. I believe both that the case against volxen is both strong enough for him to be lynched and that it gives town much better info on D2 whichever way they flip.

And what is gained if Volxen flips town?

Even if we are lynching non associated scum it's win/win for town. We run into the same issues with angel that we had with UC. Except UC has replaced out now. Say we don't lynch Angel today and Angel actually is Scum. I don't think we gain info after a scum flip there either since there is all the incentive to buss and none to really back Angel up.

For one it gives you reason to reconsider your stance on me and Reundo (who I believe you think town), considering you found Reundo's read on volxen "odd" and that I started the hypothetical lynch on volxen. If you were to stay off the wagon, it would give you towncred at least in my eyes for doing so (though that shouldn't stop you if you think what's been presented so far is presented.) These are just a few things that would specifically apply to you, but Volxen has been mentioned far more times in this game than angel's slot, who we perceived as completely null for 90% of the game. UC is also different from angel considering the wagon on his slot had much more time to build up - again, more talking points than angel in any case, allowing all of us to draw at least somewhat reliable conclusions.

If we don't lynch Angel today and they really are scum, then you get to interpret their actions done tomorrow - I might be wrong, but I feel as if reading a complete newbie shouldn't be that much of a hassle. In any case we wouldn't be at a complete loss.

The worst scenario is if they flip town - can you think of any meaningful points of analysis from D1 concerning their lynch if that's the case? I'm having a hard time thinking of any. At most we'd continue some of the confusion of our current reads, I don't think we'd have much reason to rethink them since lynching Angel is for the most part completely null. If they flip town, we have little reason to consider whoever lynched them much scummier or townier than before. I'll point out this scenario is statistically much likelier at face value.

Overall I'm still of the opinion Angel is the worst lynch today of all the lurkers if we want to have the most info as town on D2. The most convincing argument I can see for their lynch is Reundo's - which is the principle that flaked newbie slots are more likely to be scum. I don't think that's a much better than simply lynching at random. Going off of stated scumreads and my suspicion of volxen is enough to not make me want to go along with that plan and the fact that most of the people considering lynching Angel would agree on lynching volxen, I'd really like them to reconsider, since this seems like a shot in the dark.

[RCEnigma]

I don't think reading Angel is an issue but at this point it's likely Angel replaces out as well, if we lynch Volxen here and he flips town we are still in a position where half the list goes back and forth and we line up a lurker again tomorrow.

I understand your issue with Volxen but we are battling scum AND inactivity this game.

[NotNova]

Who are your preferred lynches then? I get the feeling you're on board with lynching inactives - who do you pick and why?

Also, I now realize everyone except angel in my post above is already voting ceejay - it was more to the effect of "I'd like you to clarify if you have any new opinions" and it goes for pretty much everyone in the game, not just whoever I listed.

[Thor665]

I'd also rather vote Angel here.

Why?

@Nova - if you can't see how I'm trying to keep the Reundo back and forth focused and minimized I got nothing for you.

[volxen]

@NotNova, 214 is a long post which basically says

1-) That you think I am scum because of the timing of my “I’m getting caught up” 101 post
2-) That you didn’t like my questioning of xwing

Look, I don’t know what to tell you other than you are reading way too much into my “I’m getting caught up” post in 101. Do you want to know why I made it? Because I was busy IRL and I wanted everyone to know that I was still here. You are acting like prod dodging somehow fits into my overall larger master scum plan. As if getting prodded is somehow noble and really pro-town. And I would think you of all people would have at least considered the possibility that maybe I was in fact just busy IRL, considering you had two days in-between 115 and your next post 160, and you indicated in 160 that you were busy IRL and that was the reasoning behind the gap in your posts. So why immediately jump to the conclusion that the timing of my 101 is scum-motivated, instead of considering that it’s simply what it looks like, a completely NAI post indicating that I got busy IRL but was in the process of getting caught up? Because that’s apparently how you treated UC’s own “I’m getting caught up” post in 116, since you never referred to it or criticized it.

That’s what I find unreasonable in your logic. In 115 you hone down on me, even though I had more content that both UC and Horror combined at the time and come to the conclusion that I am more likely to be scum than either of them because of the timing of 101. And that literally was the only distinguishing factor between me vs Horror/UC. I guess if I had made 101 after getting prodded rather than before, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, as the timing of the post is the basis of you honing down on me.

Regarding my questioning of xwing, I’m not really sure why you take issue with it. I genuinely found the disconnect between him stating UC was his top scumread but voting for Thor because others were doing it to be suspicious, so I questioned him to dig deeper into the issue and see how he would respond so I could gather more information. It seems like you’re almost trying to suggest that because my questioning of him didn’t lead to me necessarily scumreading and voting him, that it was a waste of time. If that is the case you are making, then I would argue that you are missing the entire point of what this game is all about. Questioning people and uncovering their motivations is literally what the game of Mafia is all about. Questioning someone does not always have to result in voting for them or scumreading them. I questioned him to gather more information, and I found his responses to be plausible coming from a town perspective (i.e., that he is a new player that wanted to stand out more, and he thought he could achieve that by sheeping onto the largest wagon), so I gave him the benefit of the doubt for the time being. What is unreasonable about any of that?

Now that that’s out of the way, I would like to actually start addressing other things here. To start, RCEnigma is a townread for me, and I will elaborate more in my next post.

I’m not sure yet on Reundo and Thor. I probably need to ISO both of them some more and re-read through their arguments/discussions. I think it’s entirely possible that the 3-way arguments involving {Thor, Reundo, RCEnigma} are TvTvT. I need to analyze Reundo and Thor more to see if anything sticks out to me as potentially scum-motivated.

NotNova, if you are town, then I would encourage you to keep a more open mind about my slot. Just as I am trying to keep an open mind about your slot, as I do think it’s possible that you are just misguided about me and I can see town!NotNova being genuinely fed up with lurkers, and it is a fair argument to suggest that scum could be residing within lurkers. I do find your focus on me over the other lurkers with less content to be illogical, but I still think it’s entirely possible that you are town and are simply misreading me. Besides myself, who is your next strongest scumread?

[volxen]

@Thor, my apologies to you. It was you, not Reundo, who used the term "flim flam". So in 199, it should say "to quote Thor" rather than "to quote Reundo".

[NotNova]

Look, I don’t know what to tell you other than you are reading way too much into my “I’m getting caught up” post in 101. Do you want to know why I made it? Because I was busy IRL and I wanted everyone to know that I was still here. You are acting like prod dodging somehow fits into my overall larger master scum plan. As if getting prodded is somehow noble and really pro-town. And I would think you of all people would have at least considered the possibility that maybe I was in fact just busy IRL, considering you had two days in-between 115 and your next post 160, and you indicated in 160 that you were busy IRL and that was the reasoning behind the gap in your posts. So why immediately jump to the conclusion that the timing of my 101 is scum-motivated, instead of considering that it’s simply what it looks like, a completely NAI post indicating that I got busy IRL but was in the process of getting caught up? Because that’s apparently how you treated UC’s own “I’m getting caught up” post in 116, since you never referred to it or criticized it.

I've already made it pretty clear - you as well as most everyone here, including me, seems to think there probably isn't reason to suspect anyone in the threeway of Thor, Reundo, RCE scum. That leaves us the inactives. I have to pick whose buttons I want to push, I reasoned that your play looked the most like active lurking, I thought it more incriminating than what horrordude and UC were doing. From a consequentialist perspective, UC has flaked - I interpret his dodges to be NAI now, giving me no reason to change my mind about that. At that point in time, it was for the most part equally likely that any of the inactives were scum - therefore more minor details have to be considered. I don't see how that's illogical - the question was "who's most likely scum there?" and I think my conclusion follows for the most part.

I'd consider prod dodging a very minor tell, usually, but in the context of the game I interpret it as scum!volxen coasting for an easy mislynch without having to commit to any one position just yet, with the bonus being able to give your stated defense whenever questioned about: "I'm more active than these guys, they're more likely to be scum." It's hardly a reason to clear you.

That’s what I find unreasonable in your logic. In 115 you hone down on me, even though I had more content that both UC and Horror combined at the time and come to the conclusion that I am more likely to be scum than either of them because of the timing of 101. And that literally was the only distinguishing factor between me vs Horror/UC. I guess if I had made 101 after getting prodded rather than before, we wouldn’t even be having this conversation, as the timing of the post is the basis of you honing down on me.

That's where you are wrong. Yes, that was my initial thought process, but what really struck a nerve was your almost willing ignorance of most everything that's been happening in the game and your inability to speak your mind about what your thoughts are. Your defense read as trying to throw mud at my case, without even trying to consider why I'd have problems with the way you were playing.

Getting all uppity about accusing you and then FOSing me for it isn't a good appearance from anyone playing town. I expect town to help me figure out what's going on, not try to get me heated and then suspect me with a shambled-together explanation. Had you thought to act in a manner that suggests a transparent thought process and a genuine attempt at solving, THEN we wouldn't be having this conversation. I don't think you were doing that.

Regarding my questioning of xwing, I’m not really sure why you take issue with it. I genuinely found the disconnect between him stating UC was his top scumread but voting for Thor because others were doing it to be suspicious, so I questioned him to dig deeper into the issue and see how he would respond so I could gather more information. It seems like you’re almost trying to suggest that because my questioning of him didn’t lead to me necessarily scumreading and voting him, that it was a waste of time. If that is the case you are making, then I would argue that you are missing the entire point of what this game is all about. Questioning people and uncovering their motivations is literally what the game of Mafia is all about. Questioning someone does not always have to result in voting for them or scumreading them. I questioned him to gather more information, and I found his responses to be plausible coming from a town perspective (i.e., that he is a new player that wanted to stand out more, and he thought he could achieve that by sheeping onto the largest wagon), so I gave him the benefit of the doubt for the time being. What is unreasonable about any of that?

I have my own issues with the way xwing is playing, I've been fairly forthright about that.
The problem isn't that you were questioning them, it's that you
a) weren't asking particularly impressive questions that would give town something new to work with
b) you weren't questioning anyone else at all
c) you gave up on the questioning only after it was universally decided inactives were going to be lynched, hastily choosing the biggest wagon.

b) is really important here: had you come out giving your take, I'd expect people to question you as well. But you didn't, you let me and everyone guess what you were thinking and you can't be surprised that what I guessed wasn't charitable.
You sat around not making a decision and then sheeped an easy wagon.

Now that that’s out of the way, I would like to actually start addressing other things here. To start, RCEnigma is a townread for me, and I will elaborate more in my next post.

I’m not sure yet on Reundo and Thor. I probably need to ISO both of them some more and re-read through their arguments/discussions. I think it’s entirely possible that the 3-way arguments involving {Thor, Reundo, RCEnigma} are TvTvT. I need to analyze Reundo and Thor more to see if anything sticks out to me as potentially scum-motivated.

Had I seen something like this much, much earlier, I would have been elated. Now it all reads like you're doing damage control after getting called out repeatedly.

NotNova, if you are town, then I would encourage you to keep a more open mind about my slot. Just as I am trying to keep an open mind about your slot, as I do think it’s possible that you are just misguided about me and I can see town!NotNova being genuinely fed up with lurkers, and it is a fair argument to suggest that scum could be residing within lurkers. I do find your focus on me over the other lurkers with less content to be illogical, but I still think it’s entirely possible that you are town and are simply misreading me. Besides myself, who is your next strongest scumread?

I'm not trying to tunnel you, if that's what you're implying. What you've been doing has simply done little to convince me you're town. If something comes along, I can reconsider, as I have over several issues over the course of the game.

As I said before, xwing is my second scumlean, but far below you in the pecking order rn as far as I'm concerned.


I'll recap responding to the first part of your post.

@NotNova, 214 is a long post which basically says

1-) That you think I am scum because of the timing of my “I’m getting caught up” 101 post
2-) That you didn’t like my questioning of xwing

214 is a long post which explains why I think that
1) you are misrepresenting my case (which I still think you're doing)
2) the circumstances relating to your prodge initially led me to believe you might be scum
3) your vote on UC is scummy
4) your push on xwing is unoriginal and easy
5) you fencesitting on the gamestate is scummy
6) your defense is more likely to come from scum than town

What you consider my main points isn't even close to what I find important here. You're heavily overestimating the post with my initial vote compared to what has happened since.

[Thor665]

@Mod - considering what has come thus far and the current prods in place, I'd like to request a very mild extension to the day. At the very least giving us the chance to maybe have some of the new players provide 3-4 posts for slots that are currently ghost slots.

@Everyone else - just for the record, I generally find time extensions to be anti-town. I'm making an exception here because we have so much dead air. This is the sort of thing you can always request from a mod, they may or may not grant it. I tend to advocate trying to minimize it because I do think that on this site lots of people grind towards deadlines too much, and all this does is feed the bad habit and not teach people to get votes in play and make up their minds. That said, we are in a replacement quagmire,a nd even though I fear an extension could cause more prods and more game lag, we have an unreasonable amount of flake slots at the moment.

@Nova - you're dinging on Vloxen for reactively attacking you. You didn't agree with, but you appeared to consider it a townish reaction when RCE reactively attacked me. What's the difference between the two for you?