Newbie 1889: Ice Cream (Game Over)

[RCEnigma]

I won't vote vote horrordudes slot now out of shame q.q sorry Sky.
*Obligatory Thor Disclaimer, the above sentence is a joke*

I agreed that lynching into the u productive slots was probably a good move but all three were interchangeable in my mind so all were good options. I'm still wary of Thor a bit which is why I wanted to get a gauge of why UC specifically. Experienced player prod dodging vs inexperienced player prod dodging isn't a great defense for slots that should be interchangeable.

As far as Volxen goes, I think he latched onto his scumread and took that train into the tunnel and far as he could go. I did agree that it wasn't S/S but it could still be TvS. I didnt like his vote on UC that's my main issue with Volxen now since its the scumread on his scumread so of all the inactive to place a vote on, that's an odd one I can't really wrap my head around. If not for that vote I would say his fos on Nova is surface level OMGUS but an attempt to look outside of Xwing before he just odd back into his tunnel.

With that aside I read Volxen the way I did with myself during my first game and by chance the recipient of my tunnel just replaced in (hi Sky) in that he has it in his head that Xwing is scum and he is going to view much of Xwings actions as scummy regardless. For what it's worth it Volxen flips scum I don't believe Xwing or Thor are scum as a result. But I still don't want to lynch him. IDK a Town Volxen flip could point to anyone on the wagon at this point, I at the very least townlean his wagon but I also townlean Volxen. I will say much of my view on Xwing is due to Reundos points and not Xwings play in particular so that would probably be my first fos.

[Thor665]

Everyone being on board with UC dissuaded me from wanting to lynch him. I don't think it's an all town push.

Who do you think is the scum there?

Also yourself (Thor) and Nova trying to keep the lynch away from Angel rubbed me the wrong way. Makes me think there is something more going on there.

Suggesting I tried to keep the lynch away from Angel feels like a pretty aggressive stretch.
Where do you get that vibe?
Is that why you'd prefer an Angel lynch? Because two (one) people (person) defended them?

Meanwhile, volxen has a plethora of content to dive through if he's serious about thinking I'm scum. Considering he gave up on it a post after, offering me some sort of truce, I don't think he was. I interpret it as him trying to hastily defend himself by throwing shade at me.

Why do you think town wouldn't do that?

Also, Thor, do you still consider UC's slot the best lynch or do you consider the lurkers basically interchangeable?

They are assuredly not interchangeable.
I've also assuredly not offered a town read on any of them.

Experienced player prod dodging vs inexperienced player prod dodging isn't a great defense for slots that should be interchangeable.

But they're not interchangeable and the tell does only apply to one slot - so what's your issue with it as a tell?

[RCEnigma]

I disagree that it's a good tell is all.

Defending Angel may have been unintentional but I didn't feel UC dodging out if the game was more indicative than Angel dodging out of the game and I wanted to see what kind of resistance there would be in moving to a slot in a very similar situation.

[Thor665]

I disagree that it's a good tell is all.

Fine. I disagree with you.

Defending Angel may have been unintentional but I didn't feel UC dodging out if the game was more indicative than Angel dodging out of the game and I wanted to see what kind of resistance there would be in moving to a slot in a very similar situation.

By that logic everyone voting is, by definition, defending everyone they're not voting, yeah?
I'll agree it's "true" but also posit it's a pretty meaningless tell.
Is that the preference for Angel in a nutshell? Other people defended the slot by not voting the slot?

Also, you missed me asking you who you thought was the scum on the UC wagon.

[xwing]

Hi all!

Obligatory UNVOTE:

hi and welcome, sky! hope to hear from you after you've caught up!

[xwing]

we got a lot of inactives this game so im still worried that townies still might be killing off each other as we've got a limited lynch pool.

Why do you think we have a limited lynch pool?
What's limiting it?
I'm pretty sure we're still allowed to lynch anyone.

okay, to clear this up--town starts with very little info..the way we lynch people is based on content they have produced..so town would be more comfortable lynching an active player with scummy behaviour as they had more time to assess and be confident of their reads as compared to an inactive..so a wagon on an active has higher chances of moving compared to an inactive..that's why i feel it's pretty limited..im not talking about it in a literal sense..

what's your current read list, thor?

[xwing]

As far as Volxen goes, I think he latched onto his scumread and took that train into the tunnel and far as he could go. I did agree that it wasn't S/S but it could still be TvS. I didnt like his vote on UC that's my main issue with Volxen now since its the scumread on his scumread so of all the inactive to place a vote on, that's an odd one I can't really wrap my head around. If not for that vote I would say his fos on Nova is surface level OMGUS but an attempt to look outside of Xwing before he just odd back into his tunnel.

With that aside I read Volxen the way I did with myself during my first game and by chance the recipient of my tunnel just replaced in (hi Sky) in that he has it in his head that Xwing is scum and he is going to view much of Xwings actions as scummy regardless. For what it's worth it Volxen flips scum I don't believe Xwing or Thor are scum as a result. But I still don't want to lynch him. IDK a Town Volxen flip could point to anyone on the wagon at this point, I at the very least townlean his wagon but I also townlean Volxen. I will say much of my view on Xwing is due to Reundos points and not Xwings play in particular so that would probably be my first fos.

what do you think of my case on volxen?
who is more suspicious for you, angel or me? why?
what about my play after entrance is anti-town, or not town-like? (yeah let's forget about that stupid entrance..zzzzz..)

[xwing]

to be honest, i mostly skim on reundo vs thor walls..but i wanted to just put here what pinged me the post during my first read (i dont think i'll enjoy doing ISO reads for both thor and reundo..)

So, like here for example:

When it comes to "dodges" I don't need examples, I want em all.
I would think you would too...if I was fully convinced you were scumhunting me

context is, reundo is accusing thor of dodging questions..and gives one particular example..

thor's answer is as per above..

what do you guys think of this particular exchange?
everyone can answer except for reundo and thor..for obvious reasons..

[volxen]

I think it is very likely that there is at least one member of the scumteam among {NotNova, xwing, Ceejay[UCvoyager], and Angel}.

NotNova – I’ve already said why I suspect him. He has talked about how “fed up” he is with lurkers (see: 214), but the only slot he really has been critical of out of {Volxen, Sky[Horror], CeeJay[UC]} is mine. He basically gave Sky[Horror] a free pass just because he wrote a catch-up post (while simultaneously criticizing me for my legitimate questioning of xwing), and for whatever reason he has all but completely ignored CeeJay[UC]’s slot. UC himself really didn’t have any content in this game, and his replacement CeeJay hasn’t done much but accuse me of being scum because I was on his predecessors’ wagon (now his wagon). NotNova simply doesn’t seem to care about the lurking from Ceejay[UC]’s slot. NotNova likes to keep bringing up the fact that I didn’t have a complete readslist early on in the game (which is true), but did Sky[Horror] and Ceejay[UC] have them? No, they did not, but that doesn’t really seem to concern NotNova at all. All three of our slots have had periods of inactivity/lurking in this game, but I am the only one he is interested in questioning and pressuring.

If NotNova were town, I think he would be more inclined to equally pressure/question all three of myself, Sky[Horror], and Ceejay[UC] for our periods of inactivity/lurking. Obviously, he can only vote for one of us at a time, but he still could have made an effort to question/pressure Sky[Horror] and Ceejay[UC], but he didn’t. He pays lip service to being fed up with lurking, but then he hard tunnels all of his focus on the one out of us three who has had the most content in this game: myself. That suggests to me that he may be pushing an agenda rather than legitimately trying to scum-hunt amongst the slots that have less content in this game. If he is scum, perhaps it is because one of the other lurker slots is his partner (Sky[Horror], Ceejay[UC], or even Angel). And in 214 and 217 he sounds like he is just more interested in establishing associatives than in actually lynching scum. Why is the guy that is supposedly so “fed up” with lurking adamantly opposed to lynching the slot that

literally has zero content

? NotNova’s words and actions are just contradictory.

Xwing – I’ve already talked about xwing as well. I do find his early game behavior of voting for Thor while listing UC as his prime scum suspect (and his reasoning for doing so) to be suspicious. And then in 233, he writes a lengthy post on why he is voting for me, but his reasons for voting me are basically the same exact reasons that NotNova listed for voting me: 1) he didn’t like the fact that I had a period of inactivity that was followed by my “I’m getting caught up” post in 101 and 2) he didn’t like that I questioned him about his voting for Thor. He then goes on to compare his vote for Thor to my original vote for NotNova, even though he knows that my original vote for NotNova was a non-serious RVS vote (because I didn’t have any serious scumreads at the time that I voted for NotNova, see: 17), whereas at the time he voted for Thor he had a scumread (UC) that he neglected to vote for. He also keeps justifying his behavior in this game based on what happened in a previous game: 1) first he uses it to justify his voting for Thor (“I want to stand out unlike my last game”), and 2) second he uses it in part to justify voting for me (“in my last game one of the people that attacked me turned out to be scum”). Overall that’s just faulty reasoning as this is a completely different game with different people and different circumstances.

Ceejay[UC] – His predecessor UC didn’t really have much content, and the first thing Ceejay did when he joined the game was accuse me of being scum (see: 207). Interestingly, he was fine with the other three people being on his wagon (Thor, Sky[Horror], and xwing), and it was only my being on his wagon that he took issue with (see: 212). I feel like that was a very easy play to make, because I had already taken heat for inactivity/lurking (mostly from NotNova), and out of the four people on his wagon I was the easiest target for him to attack. In essence, he basically just agreed with NotNova’s case against me. And out of the 200+ posts that this game currently has, the only thing that seems to have stuck out to him is the fact that I was on his predecessors’ wagon (now his wagon), even when I made it clear that I voted for UC primarily to get his attention (see: 183).

Angel – I don’t really have much to say here as there is literally no content from this slot. But as Reundo said, multiple people have replaced out of this slot, which may suggest a higher likelihood of it being a scum slot.

[volxen]

EBWOP: Why is the guy that is supposedly so “fed up” with lurking adamantly opposed to lynching the slot (Angel) that

literally has zero content

?

[NotNova]

I think it is very likely that there is at least one member of the scumteam among {NotNova, xwing, Ceejay[UCvoyager], and Angel}.

NotNova – I’ve already said why I suspect him. He has talked about how “fed up” he is with lurkers (see: 214), but the only slot he really has been critical of out of {Volxen, Sky[Horror], CeeJay[UC]} is mine. He basically gave Sky[Horror] a free pass just because he wrote a catch-up post (while simultaneously criticizing me for my legitimate questioning of xwing), and for whatever reason he has all but completely ignored CeeJay[UC]’s slot. UC himself really didn’t have any content in this game, and his replacement CeeJay hasn’t done much but accuse me of being scum because I was on his predecessors’ wagon (now his wagon). NotNova simply doesn’t seem to care about the lurking from Ceejay[UC]’s slot. NotNova likes to keep bringing up the fact that I didn’t have a complete readslist early on in the game (which is true), but did Sky[Horror] and Ceejay[UC] have them? No, they did not, but that doesn’t really seem to concern NotNova at all. All three of our slots have had periods of inactivity/lurking in this game, but I am the only one he is interested in questioning and pressuring.

I'll repeat it again in case you missed it from my last two walls - both of their slots have now flaked, so if they were active lurking, it's all for naught. I've repeatedly indulged other players to offer their thoughts and that goes for everyone, I don't have to write their names in every time.

What you were doing looked the most like active lurking and skating by, which I think is more incriminating than regular lurking and then flaking. You haven't shown me why I'm mistaken in believing this.

If NotNova were town, I think he would be more inclined to equally pressure/question all three of myself, Sky[Horror], and Ceejay[UC] for our periods of inactivity/lurking. Obviously, he can only vote for one of us at a time, but he still could have made an effort to question/pressure Sky[Horror] and Ceejay[UC], but he didn’t.

And all the other players are just not doing that because...? Am I supposed to carry all of town? If you think it's scummy to "not pressure everyone equally" then I think you ought to be scumreading everyone playing.

Yes, I'm frustrated with lurking, it's stalling progress of the game immensely. Doesn't mean I have to feed everyone questions with a silver spoon.
Right now, I think I have a solid case against you and a high likelihood of you being scum, so what time I do have for the game, I'm using to focus on lynching you. Choosing to push your scumread is in no way, shape, or form scummy. From what I've been reading, I haven't seen much to consider anyone else a better pick.

He pays lip service to being fed up with lurking, but then he hard tunnels all of his focus on the one out of us three who has had the most content in this game: myself. That suggests to me that he may be pushing an agenda rather than legitimately trying to scum-hunt amongst the slots that have less content in this game. If he is scum, perhaps it is because one of the other lurker slots is his partner (Sky[Horror], Ceejay[UC], or even Angel).

Can you give me any sort of scum motivation for not going for the easy lynch on UC or Angel? Offering intent on UC a few pages back would have been easy, so the only way I wouldn't have agreed to that as scum is if the scumteam was exactly me and UC and not anyone else. That makes your scumpartner list not consistent with your thought process. Besides, I don't know why you'd ignore my every interaction with a player prior to the end of this game in making the list of my potential scumpartners. Feel free to go through my ISO and show what's scummy in it, see if anyone agrees. You'd probably have more luck with that than mucking up theories and scum-motivations for me pushing a lynch on you.

And in 214 and 217 he sounds like he is just more interested in establishing associatives than in actually lynching scum. Why is the guy that is supposedly so “fed up” with lurking adamantly opposed to lynching the slot that

literally has zero content

? NotNova’s words and actions are just contradictory.

Newsflash - I AM lynching (what I believe to be) scum, you. You're at L-1 right now and there's plenty of reason to suspect you. I'm trying to keep this short or I'd repeat everything I said so far.

If you think I'm wrong about Angel, just tell me what it is I'm not understanding here. I wrote everything I thought about the lynch in the posts you cite. I don't see how wanting to have information or associatives on D2 is at all a scum-motivated desire: if anything, it's the opposite, the less info town has, the more the gamestate favours scum. If being frustrated means I have to flush reasoning down the toilet, then I'd better take some anger management classes soon.

Ceejay[UC] – His predecessor UC didn’t really have much content, and the first thing Ceejay did when he joined the game was accuse me of being scum (see: 207). Interestingly, he was fine with the other three people being on his wagon (Thor, Sky[Horror], and xwing), and it was only my being on his wagon that he took issue with (see: 212). I feel like that was a very easy play to make, because I had already taken heat for inactivity/lurking (mostly from NotNova), and out of the four people on his wagon I was the easiest target for him to attack. In essence, he basically just agreed with NotNova’s case against me. And out of the 200+ posts that this game currently has, the only thing that seems to have stuck out to him is the fact that I was on his predecessors’ wagon (now his wagon), even when I made it clear that I voted for UC primarily to get his attention (see: 183).

I have noticed your reasoning for your vote as well. I just think putting someone at L-1 without providing any apparent reasoning at all is irresponsible, which I've said for xwing as well. RCE has also pointed out you were voting your scumread's (xwing's) scumread. I don't think it's a huge part of the picture in the entire case, but there's certainly a reason to consider your vote scummy.


Overall, offering your entire wagon minus Reundo as scumreads (who agrees with my "scummy reasoning" regarding not lynching Angel, by the way, but I suppose his reluctance isn't scum-motivated?) is a poor way to dissuade anyone voting you right now. I again get the feeling you're just grasping at straws and making up hypothetical scenarios without providing any real evidence, and I don't get the feeling you're making a genuine attempt at finding scum.

FMPOV, if you are town attempting to provide a defense for yourself, I'd expect you to start treating the case presented against you more seriously. A minimum of 2 people on your wagon right now is town, and you should be convincing them. Right now, all you've done is convince me that I'm probably right about all of this. I have a hard time believing this comes from someone trying their darndest to play a good towngame.

[Skygazer]

Oooh lots of walls, that's exciting. I'll dig into this tonight finally, I just got through my first recital of the semester!

Hi RCE! Hi Reundo! Hi CJ!

Going off of meta and not content I think RCE and Reundo are more likely to be town for their walling, but I haven't seen either of their scum games and haven't even begun to read this game yet.

I'm excited to play with Thor especially after reading his interview with ffery!

[Skygazer]

After accidentally leading a mislynch on CJ one or two times I'm a little wary of that wagon just based on past experience. I feel like he can be easy to scumread as town.

[NotNova]

Welcome, Skygazer. I hope you'll show more initative than some of your predecessors.

I think my most urgent question is in regards to the current wagons, as we're lynching inactive players. Would love to hear what your impressions are and which way you'd swing on a lynch.

[xwing]

i removed the parts pertaining to other people to let them respond on their own..

I think it is very likely that there is at least one member of the scumteam among {NotNova, xwing, Ceejay[UCvoyager], and Angel}.
Xwing – I’ve already talked about xwing as well. I do find his early game behavior of voting for Thor while listing UC as his prime scum suspect (and his reasoning for doing so) to be suspicious. And then in 233, he writes a lengthy post on why he is voting for me, but his reasons for voting me are basically the same exact reasons that NotNova listed for voting me: 1) he didn’t like the fact that I had a period of inactivity that was followed by my “I’m getting caught up” post in 101 and 2) he didn’t like that I questioned him about his voting for Thor. He then goes on to compare his vote for Thor to my original vote for NotNova, even though he knows that my original vote for NotNova was a non-serious RVS vote (because I didn’t have any serious scumreads at the time that I voted for NotNova, see: 17), whereas at the time he voted for Thor he had a scumread (UC) that he neglected to vote for.

in my case against you, there are similarities to volxen, but to call it the "basically the same exact reasons" is reaching quite a bit..notnova was pushing you for your inactivity [oversimplification], and i was pushing for some things other than that..i think my points are quite original..

i never said that i didnt like that you questioned me about my thor vote (the action)..what i didnt like were the questions themselves (the content)..that's because others have already asked similar questions and i've already answered them..

also, when comparing my vote compared to yours, i explicitly said in my case that they were of different circumstances, and i did acknowledge it was an RVS vote..so i dont think i was misrepresenting you there..
what i found hypocritical is you're asking me to vote and pressure my scum lean, but you basically did NOTHING out of all those you mentioned to me was "logical"..im putting in quotes below [emphasis mine]

So my question is, if UC is the person you are the most suspicious of (which your ISO seems to suggest that is the case), why did you feel obligated to leave your vote parked on Thor for so long?

You mentioned twice that you feared momentum would be lost if you had switched your vote from Thor to UC, but why did you believe that to be the case? Much of the posts in this thread so far consist of the back-and-forth between Thor and RC. I really don’t think you changing your vote from Thor to UC would have changed that or lessened the early game momentum that was started from Thor’s wagon.

If UC is the person you are the most suspicious of, you should be putting pressure on him to see how he reacts. The logical thing to do is to vote him and see if you can get others to follow suit to intensify the pressure and see how UC reacts. You could also start questioning him (beyond just asking him about the unvote vote thing). Why haven’t you done any of this?

i was your scum lean but you never voted for me..and i didnt feel any pressure from your questions because i've already answered them..if you had a different angle or something i would have considered you were truly pressuring/scum hunting me..but it didnt appear that way to me..

it's also hypocritical to me coz you expect me to have done the above [bolded], but you never did so yourself..

He also keeps justifying his behavior in this game based on what happened in a previous game: 1) first he uses it to justify his voting for Thor (“I want to stand out unlike my last game”), and 2) second he uses it in part to justify voting for me (“in my last game one of the people that attacked me turned out to be scum”). Overall that’s just faulty reasoning as this is a completely different game with different people and different circumstances.

this is quite the misrep/reaching again..i neatly outlined my case for you in bullets and numbering..you can see that i DID NOT include this point as my case against you, i was replying to RCE on what transpired during my last game since he asked for it..i even used a line break to differentiate it from my case..you seem to be overly defensive about this..
also, people were asking my thought process regarding my entrance, and i had to include what happened during my first game so they could understand where i was coming from..did this seem like an excuse to you as opposed to a thought process?

it's interesting to note that you mentioned that it's "faulty reasoning" but you didnt say it's "scummy reasoning"..are you equating them as the same?

do you have anything to say regarding reundo's accusations against you? you missed that part..

pedit: im glad volxen noticed this as well (my last statement)

[xwing]

sorry i messed up the tags but it's readable so i wont re-post..

[xwing]

I'm excited to play with Thor especially after reading his interview with ffery!

Spoiler: not much game related

what interview? thor is a celebrity here in mafia scum or something? can you post a link please?

[Skygazer]

Spoiler: 451 interview

https://forum.mafia451.com/t/thor665-ponders-mafia/1113

[Skygazer]

Gonna try to mostly town sort in my catchup because I'm better than that than at catching scum

Page 1:
Thor coming in with the early pressure on RCE is pretty much exactly how I'd see him approach this as town based on his interview thing, applying pressure to an early scumread to push the town out of RVS and find reactions.

...who will support me in that push and who will oppose me...

...Does sitting at L-3 help me more somehow?

This may be kinda moonlogic but the way he uses "me" here feels very transparent in that he's open about his motivations right off the bat and in a way that I think comes from town. Like, I see scum being too cautious to attach the word "me" to an early wagon.

On the other hand, I have early town pings from Reundo and RCE for their willingness to throw early votes at Thor. I feel as though relatively new scum would be too terrified of town Thor to vote for him that early (if he is town). I don't think scum would want to draw the attention of the IC/a player that's been on the site for almost 10 years.

[Skygazer]

Page 2:

town pings from xwing for knowingly placing Thor at L-1 on page 2. Shows a lack of caution that doesn't come from newb-scum

[Skygazer]

Well, you're town you mind putting yourself in my pocket today? I can wait till tomorrow but that would be the cutoff.

this post almost never comes from scum unless they're super confident in their scum-play

RCE do you have any completed scum games yet?

[Skygazer]

would lynch between CJ, Angel, and Volxen mostly on PoE

Volxen feels better to me than CJ and Angel.

Intent to hammer after an Angel replacement is found unless the deadline is extended.

[Skygazer]

CJ wagon is not the worst due to early UC posts actually

[volxen]

CJ wagon is not the worst due to early UC posts actually

Do you still have intent to hammer me?

[Skygazer]

ill think it over, im kind of unconcerned over who gets lynched as long as its not one of my strong townreads

i may end up just sheeping whichever wagon has the majority of my townreads