Overkill 1: Serenity/Firefly (GAME OVER)

[Reasonably Rational]

So sad. I ask for no posting while I sleep and end up at L-...3? 4?, this necessitating that I read these pages especially thoroughly.
@two. the toranaga pressure stopped being necessary by the time you actually voted. Do you read through everything before posting/voting, or reply as you go along?

No other real thoughts on the intervening 4 pages at the moment. Elsa Jay's reasons for making votes continue to be questionable, I guess.

Actually. Elsa Jay, do you give a reason for every vote you make when you make it?
Work time, will try to get Drixx in here to play with all of you while I'm busy.

-Cerb

[Elsa Jay]

Well for now, I'm paranoid for everyone and against everyone.

Letting others lead the town for now while I decide what I need to do during the Night phase.

[BuJaber]

Letting others lead the town for now while I decide what I need to do during the Night phase.

Mighty big of you

[BuJaber]

Sorry I couldn't resist having that be its own post.

I'd be glad to see you take a leadership role here. At the very least it will make reading you easier.

[Thor665]

1 day and 20 pages?

Yeah - I'm skipping all of that.
Off of Page 1 I liked Elsa and Toranaga.
Is anyone in quickMjolnir range yet?

[Elsa Jay]

A dude named Rational is at 5 votes I think?

No hammer powet yet.

[Thor665]

Then let's give someone that power;

Vote:Reasonably Rational

[Randomnamechange]

whymst the fucketh are there 20 pages

[Randomnamechange]

WAIT RR IS HERE YESSS

[Thor665]

So off RR's own personal count that's L-2-3?
Let's get another vote!

Pedit: @randommidget - because town hasn't put someone to L-1 to force a claim yet. Want to help out? We're random wagoning the random guy.

[BuJaber]

Page 18 VC:

votecount

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

Toranaga (3):	RadiantCowbells (350),	Reasonably Rational (363),	the worst (419),
TPFKAP (1):	Flicker (63),
Flicker (1):	northsidegal (153),
Skygazer (1):	Toranaga (330),
the worst (1):	Skygazer (380),
RadiantCowbells (1):	BuJaber (384),
Not voting (9):	Toogeloo,	NicoRobin,	TPFKAP,	Chickadee,	Thor665,	randomidget,	Malakittens (90),	Elsa Jay (291),	CheekyTeeky (408),

(expired on 2018-10-16 02:00:00) remain.

Votes on RR right now page 20:

Toogeloo, Tora, Cheeky, tw, Nico, Elsa -- L-3
RC voted and unvoted.

Pedit : add Thor to that

[Randomnamechange]

i'm not going after rr unless given very good reason to do so

[BuJaber]

Give an example of a good reason

[BuJaber]

Guys I'm pretty sure Tor is scum.

why don't you give me a reason? so far you're just calling me scum for nothing

My reason is that I've played enough with you to know you're better than this and you take a more aggressive stance which inadvertently leaves you leading the town. You're sheeping, tmi'ing, and not bouncing reads off me at all, which you do when you think I'm town.

Literally the best reason for a scumread I've ever heard from someone on D1 because people suck at mafia. Well, honestly, the first sentence is something I 100% agree with. I'm not certain the tmi'ing is bad, and I have no idea about the bouncing ideas off you, but yeah. The inadvertent leadership through being vocal and aggressive is in character, and doesn't really seem present yet.

Sorry TW, maybe pressure here first for me kthx.

VOTE: Toranaga

Why is this vote the only one not signed by cerb?
Why have we heard the thoughts of only 1 head of the hydra so far?
He agrees he's verbose but like why? How much is he actually saying?

If he was only 1 person I'd be pushing for a hammer already because town or scum flip there is 1000% guarantee scum are on this wagon. But I want to wait for drixx.

Though to be fair hammer here would be a scum claim so L-1 is tempting... but maybe scum still sacrifice themselves for the quickhammer.

[BuJaber]

This is my first game with the "scum win when all town is dead" mechanic but in my mind I'm thinking they'd be willing to take more risks as they probably have more power than normal.

[Randomnamechange]

if thats the case on RR it really doesnt seem solid in anyway at all
i'm after a convincing argument for rr being scum basically. linking to a post where it was previously explained is fine.

[Reasonably Rational]

Guys I'm pretty sure Tor is scum.

why don't you give me a reason? so far you're just calling me scum for nothing

My reason is that I've played enough with you to know you're better than this and you take a more aggressive stance which inadvertently leaves you leading the town. You're sheeping, tmi'ing, and not bouncing reads off me at all, which you do when you think I'm town.

Literally the best reason for a scumread I've ever heard from someone on D1 because people suck at mafia. Well, honestly, the first sentence is something I 100% agree with. I'm not certain the tmi'ing is bad, and I have no idea about the bouncing ideas off you, but yeah. The inadvertent leadership through being vocal and aggressive is in character, and doesn't really seem present yet.

Sorry TW, maybe pressure here first for me kthx.

VOTE: Toranaga

Why is this vote the only one not signed by cerb?
Why have we heard the thoughts of only 1 head of the hydra so far?
He agrees he's verbose but like why? How much is he actually saying?

If he was only 1 person I'd be pushing for a hammer already because town or scum flip there is 1000% guarantee scum are on this wagon. But I want to wait for drixx.

Though to be fair hammer here would be a scum claim so L-1 is tempting... but maybe scum still sacrifice themselves for the quickhammer.

Mistake on my part, thank you for catching it. I always sign my posts, and so does Drixx.

As far as why you've only heard the thoughts of one head...because Drixx is fucking lazy? I told him when the game was at 5 pages last night that it was at 5, approaching 6, and he should hurry up and start reading to stay up to date, and he said he'd do so...and I haven't heard from him about the game since then.

...

With regards to being verbose: It's just the way I speak in general. Everything I say is important if you're interested in precision and clear communication, but most people don't care about details and elaboration. They're content with broad strokes statements.

A quickhammer on me...would be unusual, but possible in this playerlist? The only person I'd expect to be naturally inclined to protect me/take umbrage at someone hammering me without cause is random.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

@Random: There isn't one, there's been a practice in this game of wagoning people for pressure/reactions; this is much the same as far as strength of content to support the stance.

Just unfortunate that it occurred over night and now I'm at work and can't spend the time to really accomplish anything. *shrug*

-Cerb

[Randomnamechange]

ok cool got it gonna read up in a couple of hours

[Reasonably Rational]

This is my first game with the "scum win when all town is dead" mechanic but in my mind I'm thinking they'd be willing to take more risks as they probably have more power than normal.

This is a very flawed mechanical argument. The lack of a parity win/loss means that town also *must* have a means by which they could remove all scum even when outnumbered by a single faction(or that all scum are essentially SK's, single slots working individually to destroy the Serenity and its crew, which could make sense thematically). In either case, "overpowered" scum are not a necessity. To be fair, it's possible that A50 is simply okay with scum quickhammering a couple days in a row once they achieve parity, and there are no special mechanical things that required this unusual win condition, but I don't think it's likely.

-Cerb

[BuJaber]

if thats the case on RR it really doesnt seem solid in anyway at all
i'm after a convincing argument for rr being scum basically. linking to a post where it was previously explained is fine.

All I know is that I have a vague non-case on him. I'm sorting people by PoE. It's how I usually approach day 1.

He was part of what I consider a conversation that was far too long for imo measly returns. (Elsa discussion)

And now he is getting flashwagoned and I need to see him flip so I know if I'm looking for scum bussing or scum lynching town among the pool of his voters.

So for me it's not that I'm interested in lynching RR specifically, just more of an opportunity to progress the game in a guaranteed positive way.

Not all lynches are equal in their value. This is a pretty valuable lynch.

Pedit: that deserves its own post

[BuJaber]

This is my first game with the "scum win when all town is dead" mechanic but in my mind I'm thinking they'd be willing to take more risks as they probably have more power than normal.

This is a very flawed mechanical argument. The lack of a parity win/loss means that town also *must* have a means by which they could remove all scum even when outnumbered by a single faction(or that all scum are essentially SK's, single slots working individually to destroy the Serenity and its crew, which could make sense thematically). In either case, "overpowered" scum are not a necessity. To be fair, it's possible that A50 is simply okay with scum quickhammering a couple days in a row once they achieve parity, and there are no special mechanical things that required this unusual win condition, but I don't think it's likely.

-Cerb

Right that's fair but I think this additional power to town is a consequence of the setup mechanics and not the root cause.

Like scum are powerful -> they need to kill more -> town can win when outnumbered.


I think the requirement of additional kills is very townsided by itself. There has to be a reason for it. I think you give them power to win because you're mechanically forced to as the mod if you choose to have such a win condition, but I don't think it's the reason for the condition.

I have no proof for this just my speculation on how the setup came to be.

The divided scum idea of yours is interesting and you are absoluteky right that scenario would explain the additional kill requirement, but wouldn't that by itself be strongly in favor of scum? Sure they will shoot/lynch each other eventually but they are also statistically likely to shoot a tonne of townies in the early game. Though I really don't even see that as being likely because the 3 lylo would suck for all 3 remaining players and basically means one person game throws.

[Flicker]

VOTE: BuJaber

I don't like how he's shading RR without voting them and trying to push through a lynch so quickly when we have more than 13 days left to make a decision. I also know from having followed much of Secret Hitler that he can seem really towny and reasonable while actually being top scum (i.e. Hitler).

[Reasonably Rational]

This is my first game with the "scum win when all town is dead" mechanic but in my mind I'm thinking they'd be willing to take more risks as they probably have more power than normal.

This is a very flawed mechanical argument. The lack of a parity win/loss means that town also *must* have a means by which they could remove all scum even when outnumbered by a single faction(or that all scum are essentially SK's, single slots working individually to destroy the Serenity and its crew, which could make sense thematically). In either case, "overpowered" scum are not a necessity. To be fair, it's possible that A50 is simply okay with scum quickhammering a couple days in a row once they achieve parity, and there are no special mechanical things that required this unusual win condition, but I don't think it's likely.

-Cerb

Right that's fair but I think this additional power to town is a consequence of the setup mechanics and not the root cause.

Like scum are powerful -> they need to kill more -> town can win when outnumbered.


I think the requirement of additional kills is very townsided by itself. There has to be a reason for it. I think you give them power to win because you're mechanically forced to as the mod if you choose to have such a win condition, but I don't think it's the reason for the condition.

I have no proof for this just my speculation on how the setup came to be.

The divided scum idea of yours is interesting and you are absoluteky right that scenario would explain the additional kill requirement, but wouldn't that by itself be strongly in favor of scum? Sure they will shoot/lynch each other eventually but they are also statistically likely to shoot a tonne of townies in the early game. Though I really don't even see that as being likely because the 3 lylo would suck for all 3 remaining players and basically means one person game throws.

Not sure if the divided scum thing is strongly scumsided, depending on how the roles are all set up. It could be though?

Considering the name of the game(Overkill), as well as the fact that River, Mal, Jayne, and Zoe are all town slots that can *easily* be vigs, as well as multiple potential factions that could be considered "scum" and have the ability to kill(The Alliance, Reavers, Jubal Early, and Niska are the strongest contenders for likely scum factions that could also be individual slots, but there are other enemies in the series), makes it really hard for me to figure out if any given setup where all those factors exist and can kill is advantageous for any given faction.

The goal, I assume, is for this to be balanced. All the arguments made about why a game would have this rule come down to that, and one can either assume the moderator did not properly account for these things(though they clearly have, because they implemented additional restrictions on who may die in a given phase, as well as this rule), or that they made a good faith effort to balance things.

So, I'm going to go with they at least tried to balance, and the setup does not innately, grossly, favor any side over the other...at least, not the point where it would pervert the way they play and let them take risks they normally wouldn't(to return to the basis of this particular discussion).

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

VOTE: BuJaber

I don't like how he's shading RR without voting them and trying to push through a lynch so quickly when we have more than 13 days left to make a decision. I also know from having followed much of Secret Hitler that he can seem really towny and reasonable while actually being top scum (i.e. Hitler).

To be fair, I'm at L-2 now, and they expressed awareness of the risk of putting me at L-1.

-Cerb