Overkill 1: Serenity/Firefly (GAME OVER)

[Jingle]

Holy cow, someone who doesn't assess a joke by assuming it's hard truth and that I'm a raging nutball who doesn't know how to play the game, and maybe glanced at my wiki or any newbie I've ever ICed or any game where I had hammer chance.
Refreshing

<3 Jingle

Wait, you mean you're not a raging nutball? Why do I enjoy games with you then?

[ruru]

votecount

With 17 alive it takes 9 to lynch.

BuJaber (5):	McMenno (881),	Jingle (1594),	Toogeloo (1598),	Chickadee (1607),	Chara (1757),
TPFKAP (5):	Thor665 (1275),	Flicker (1502),	Gamma Emerald (1595),	Elsa Jay (1749),	CheekyTeeky (1787),
NicoRobin (2):	Malakittens (1191),	TPFKAP (1274),
Flicker (2):	northsidegal (153),	Reasonably Rational (1459),
Reasonably Rational (1):	NicoRobin (473),
Malakittens (1):	Nancy Drew Shogunate (1651),
Chara (1):	BuJaber (1671),
Not voting (0):

(expired on 2018-10-16 02:00:00) remain.

[Jingle]

Hey, all you vanity wagon players. You might could post your own case or join a wagon that's going somewhere. I'm ready to see a flip.

[Reasonably Rational]

For the record, I don't find Jingle's case on Bujaber particularly compelling. I don't know Bujaber well enough to have any BoP expectations of them, but those issues you have with them certainly seem to be the results of logical reasoning stopped short of it's final conclusion, where he'd realize it didn't actually make sense, rather than being a scum fabrication. This falls apart if Bujaber is a player who is very thorough in their logical arguments, but I've found that most individuals are not.

-Cerb

[Thor665]

Holy cow, someone who doesn't assess a joke by assuming it's hard truth and that I'm a raging nutball who doesn't know how to play the game, and maybe glanced at my wiki or any newbie I've ever ICed or any game where I had hammer chance.
Refreshing

<3 Jingle

Wait, you mean you're not a raging nutball? Why do I enjoy games with you then?

My statement was that I'm not a raging nutball who doesn't know how to play the game.
That does leave open that I could still not know how to play the game or be a raging nutball who does.

[BuJaber]

Is the theory you're town, TPFKAP is town, and I'm scum utterly indifferent to the wagons?
In that case, wouldn't I be perfectly happy to move if I was indifferent?
So at that point then I'm scum and have a preference to lynch TPFKAP - which would suggest you're my scumpartner, something I'm guessing you're not arguing.
So then we go to you're still both town, but I'm scum who is scared to be on a town lynch wagon and am quietly trying to shove it through - which considering how loud and proud I've been about TPFKAP's wagon (and, frankly, even two minutes spent looking at any scum game I've ever been in) will suggest I'm not scared to be on a town lynch wagon nor to spearhead one.

So...then that leaves us with...what?
I don't get this.
What are you actually accusing me of other than showing that you aren't paying attention to my stated beliefs and are generically against anyone thinking the case on you is (terror of terrors) "decent".

My point is if you think the case is decent (which ftr I don't know how you can say it's decent and disagree with it.. because decent implies agreeing), you would want my lynch because you think I'm scum.

And if you don't agree with it you shouldn't be inviting people to join either wagon. You should be arguing for only your case against TFP.

Your statement was contradictory and shows you don't care who gets lynched and that's what pinged me.

[Jingle]

For the record, I don't find Jingle's case on Bujaber particularly compelling. I don't know Bujaber well enough to have any BoP expectations of them, but those issues you have with them certainly seem to be the results of logical reasoning stopped short of it's final conclusion, where he'd realize it didn't actually make sense, rather than being a scum fabrication. This falls apart if Bujaber is a player who is very thorough in their logical arguments, but I've found that most individuals are not.

-Cerb

Acknowledged. I believe him to be a fairly thorough and rational player. Partially due to meta I cannot discuss and partially due to his own posting this game. Can elaborate sometime tomorrow if necessary, but I will say that I have read a lot of his posting to determine what type of player he is.

[BuJaber]

Spoiler: I remembered to spoiler something for once

Snipped for readability.

The problem with the bolded isn't that you took either stance, but that you took both. Simultaneously. RC and Tora are fighting over nothing, so they are inflating the thread, but ALSO you are happy with letting them fight.

The underlined: No it isn't. It's easier to sort some people when they get to a certain level of angry. In this case, the argument had devolved to "You always scumread me and are an asshole." vs "You won't stop replacing into my games and are an asshole." Both players were arguing from a position of "I don't care about his alignment, lynch him". The only outcomes there are being able to read the fight as not SvS (Already obvious at that point) and the fight making so much noise the thread got choked with it causing apathy. People are easier to read when they're off balance, not when they're raging at each other to the point where the argument isn't about the game. Then it's just noise that people have to wade through to find tiny grains of real content.

Boiling down the rest of my case to the italicized is a major misrep as well. For example "Passively supporting a lynch while simultaneously distancing yourself from it" is by no means a "playstyle difference". It's a scum motivated tool for a lack of accountability. Why?

Well lets look at your current line of argument. The intersect between the two wagons probably has scum. Surprisingly, you're not in that intersect, because despite the fact that you supported the RR lynch, you never placed a vote there. If you'd like, I can go dig up supporting evidence.

Also not mentioned: the mental gymnastics required to somehow paint putting RR at L-1 as towny for baiting a scum quicklynch and scummy for... Baiting a scumquicklynch? And then not doing that.

1. Okay that point is clearer now. The difference being I was strongly suspecting the fight was TvS even before they started fighting. So the fight inflating the thread would by definition be caused by scum. Which is my original point about the inflation. Inflation doesn't happen because scum post nonsense by themselves. Inflation happens because scum continue or start converations about things that are not game-related.

2. The underlined. If you want to argue that real life facts are not true then that is a conversation to be had outside of the game. Angry people are easier to read. That's why there are emotional aspects of interrogations. That's why poker players target people on tilt.
As for this game and this particular fight... there would not be a fight if they didn't scumread each other. So I disagree with your conclusion that they wanted the other lynched no matter what their alignment is. Sure they might get on each others nerves no matter what but they don't start randomly fighting like that if each of them townread the other. A scumread is the spark.

3. You seem to think that I deliberately did not vote for RR so that I later when I make this case can conveniently not include myself in the list.
When the RR votes were piling on I was flip flopping on RR, townreading him for reasons, scumreading him for others, trying to sort him through other ways like watching their interactions with others and engaging him myself. I was considering lynching them for the flip and to have a wagon we can lynch one of in d2 as votes piling on that quickly indicated scum on the wagon. Whether it was for bussing or to lynch a townie. But I wasn't sure if I really scumread them.

When the flicker votes were piling on I was scumreading flicker. That's the difference.

And then the intersect thing is a way for me to focus my scumhunting on a small group of players instead of all 16. All I said about it was that there is scum in the intersect. I didn't say everyone in the intersect is scum. Why do I believe there is scum in the interest? Because there are more scum reasons to join both wagons and unvote than there are town reasons to join both wagons and then unvote both, as I explained to cheeky a few posts back. Mcmenno was saying it was meaningless because any group of 4 could easily contain 1 scum. But the thing is I believe that group definitely contains scum, so it's far more probable than a random pick of 4.
I didn't pick the names randomly.. I picked the names based on the fact that I find it extremely unlikely that 4 townies had the same read on a player being wagoned, then had the same change of heart, then had the same read on another player being wagoned, then had the same change of heart.

And it might just be Elsa being a 3p messing with the odds of this whole thing.. but to equate it to a random pick of 4 was wrong of Mcmenno.

And I'm curious.. if I had voted both of them.. do you honestly expect me to put myself in my own scum pool?
Probably not.. no you're saying I'm scum because I'm scumreadimg people based on something I didn't do.

But I went through like the most diffcult and roundabout way of doing so. Why wouldn't I pick literally anything else that some people did that some didn't?

Let me explain how much effort that was from my pov. 99% of the time I go on MS it's on the phone.. so on phone I had to go back to the first wagon, take the names from the VC, go through the thread counting any additional votes that may have been missed, then do the same thing again for the 2nd wagon, then write up a few posts that actually explain what I'm doing because like I can't just fling a bunch of naked names around, JUST so I can have an additional reason to start a vanity wagon on someone I already had several reasons to scumread which is way more than enough to start a vanity wagon.

I wanted to help people to see why RC/Chara is scum. They don't see it.

I wanted to point out that Toog's lurkiness is on par with TFP and nico and that he has voted only on popular wagons, but that got ignored.

So it's like not even the scum pool thing that I do that most players don't do that people are ignoring of mine, but pretty much every thing I bring forward is being ignored.

So you know what playing my way is not going to work with this playerlist.
So if you're town help me appeal to the status quo better. What should I do?
And if you're scum you should lynch me now because I guarantee you I get harder to lynch as town with time not easier. My cases become much more aligned with what people are used to seeing and I know how to argue them better because I have more information behind the reasoning for them.

And if I end up being right about Chara being scum then this site is in serious need of new blood because people are like letting their friendships mess with their reads.

Here.. you did make one point I agree with.. these solo wagons are going no where.
I think if we're going to vote for an active lurker we should vote for Toogeloo instead for the record.. if people are willing to switch..
VOTE: TFPKAP

[CheekyTeeky]

I think NSG is the best lurker lynch scum equity wise. Also Mala is ???

[Malakittens]

Prod dodging

The dispatcher is going to make me go LBGL

Will try to get here after this shift I picked up. Regretting it now

[Thor665]

My point is if you think the case is decent (which ftr I don't know how you can say it's decent and disagree with it.. because decent implies agreeing), you would want my lynch because you think I'm scum.

1. Decent doesn't imply agreement, the definition of decent is that it is 'acceptable standard'
2. It is very easy to think something is decent (like, say, celery) without actually desiring to eat it when you have an alternate food option.
3. I am perfectly fine with your lynch and don't town read you.

And if you don't agree with it you shouldn't be inviting people to join either wagon. You should be arguing for only your case against TFP.

That is the only case I'm arguing for, and I disagree with you that me saying 'decent' and inviting people to choose between cases either hides my opinion, misleads anyone as to which I'd prefer, or weakens my ability to advance the wagon I prefer.

Your statement was contradictory and shows you don't care who gets lynched and that's what pinged me.

It is blatantly obvious unless you ignore my postings and invent definitions for words to understand my preference.
Also, even if I didn't have a preference at all that still wouldn't actually be scummy or an issue except insomuch as I should probably always be voting the biggest wagon.
There is no contradiction.
Lrn2reed?

[Thor665]

Actually I'm also kind of arguing for Nancy Drew Shogunate's lynch, but even I'm willing to admit the beard isn't likely to get too far on that one.

[Thor665]

I'm actually finding BuJaber scummier for this weird interaction than for Jingle's case.
Sorry Jingle.

[Thor665]

@BuJaber - are you awkward fake distancing me to try to get me lynched after you flip scum?

[CheekyTeeky]

Thor where have you discussed TPFKAP?

[Thor665]

Thor where have you discussed TPFKAP?

Post 1748
Post 1747
Post 1542
Post 1531
Post 1507
Post 1422
Post 1372
Post 1346
Post 1345
Post 1333
Post 1332
Post 1319
Post 1317
Post 1303
Post 1275 (that's where I voted him, I probably was dinging at him before that also, but this is already boring me)

[Thor665]

Yeah, on a quick scan there's a lot before that too.
Lrn2ISO?

[BuJaber]

No I understand the word decent differently than you do.

[Thor665]

No I understand the word decent differently than you do.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/decent

Okay - but I'm the one using it in the generally accepted form.

[Thor665]

Like, if you thought decent meant "Absolutely loved and agreed with" then I get your issue.

[BuJaber]

I'm not even interested in you getting lynched now.. I just didn't like that post and wanted to talk about it.

I haven't really given an opinion on you the whole game and that wasn't a coincidence. I don't have a read on you. I earlier townread your aggressiveness and your independence from what anybody else thinks but you seem like someone who can do that as either alignment so I don't want to read you based on what basically accounts to tone when I don't have enough experience with you to do so.

Pedit: fine for my own education.. so when you said decent you were just saying that it qualifies as a case instead of being a 'non-case'? Is that a correct interpretation?

[BuJaber]

Like, if you thought decent meant "Absolutely loved and agreed with" then I get your issue.

Simpler than that.. I equated "decent" with "good".

Decent human being, decent food etc.

Mafia specific: good case doesn't have to mean you agree with it fully.. but when you don't clarify that, the assumption is you agree with it. Like forget the word decent.. you agree that if someone says 'this is a good case' and nothing else then the logical assumption is that they agree with the case?

[Thor665]

Pedit: fine for my own education.. so when you said decent you were just saying that it qualifies as a case instead of being a 'non-case'? Is that a correct interpretation?

To really parse it down for you I was saying they were both good enough cases to deserve attention and to consolidate votes on.

Mafia specific: good case doesn't have to mean you agree with it fully.. but when you don't clarify that, the assumption is you agree with it. Like forget the word decent.. you agree that if someone says 'this is a good case' and nothing else then the logical assumption is that they agree with the case?

You're the one who took issue with me saying it was "good" and not agreeing with it, so...sure?
I'll agree that if I had said 'the case on BuJabber is good/decent" and nothing else it would make sense to think I agreed with the case. In context I'm not sure I travel down that path with you, and assuredly in context I don't follow you for the contradiction 'why aren't you voting me!?!' thing - which is just lala talk.

[Jingle]

First off

/oog

From context I believe your request for help developing your game to be genuine. If that is the case, I'm happy to help in the post game by PM or in the dead thread, depending on how long it takes me to get shot. I'm not going to devote a lot of time to helping right here because of two factors. It's largely irrelevant to the game meaning it'll bloat the thread for no reason and much of what I can comment on slips close to ongoing games discussion.

I will give you the following pieces of advice that I believe will help you, however.

As town specifically, try asking the mod for a PT in which you can keep your notes. Most mods will oblige and if you actually use it you might see a marked improvement.
As both factions, when you're ready to push a lynch through on someone you're sure about lynching, don't address them. Your audience is the town. If they bring something up that needs to be addressed, quote it, explain why it's wrong, and immediately return to the actual reasoning they should be lynched. Wall wars don't help anyone lynch their target
In your next game, regardless of alignment, actively avoid using the words 'but' and 'however'. You said 'but' 81 times in your 98 posts. Not only is this scummy (in a vacuum), prevarication is incredibly unconvincing.

/

[northsidegal]

Given the two wagon options i would always vote tpfkap over bujaber here, given a slight townread on bujaber and a slight scumread on tpfkap (i think even if she was still messing around a lot she would still make some attempt at being useful or gamesolving if town here)

on a separate note, having reviewed flicker's iso since my last real time to sit down and read the thread i'm still unconvinced that she's town and her role does nothing to change my opinion on that front. apart from that i'm somewhat lost when it comes to scumreads. looking through my notes and my existing townreads, although i don't have it all organized preliminarily if i were to assume i was right on all of them i would end up with mostly lurkers and oft-mislynched players in my PoE. that's not necessarily impossible, although it might be cause for alarm.