Open 739: Epic Duel [Game Over]

[Irrelephant11]

No it's not the wording, it's how understanding he was that Garmr felt insulted
"Oh of course you took it as an insult, you're town"
which directly contradicts Cage's read of Garmr as scum

[Light Ethos]

No it's not the wording, it's how understanding he was that Garmr felt insulted
"Oh of course you took it as an insult, you're town"
which directly contradicts Cage's read of Garmr as scum

This is awful logic and is certainly a reach. NC didn't say "you're town." He said "fypov you know you're town." Fypov. From your point of view. Not NC's point of view.

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah no you're still getting caught up in the words

It's about the emotions

Garmr was only insulted because he was town (or so he would have us believe)
Cage apologized because "of course you felt that way, you being town would obviously not take my comment as a scumread, you'd take it as an insult, that makes sense"
which Cage would only think makes sense if he knew Garmr was town, or at least he'd have to think he's town now
Otherwise "of course you thought that" doesn't make sense; it's not "of course" if Garmr is scum, it'd be "Your scum agenda included pretending"


Whatever sometimes I get too caught up in scumslips
It worked really well to catch scum one time and then didn't work twice since then so I'll drop it for now

[Nicolas Cage]

Yeah I was kinda reconsidering my scumread of Garmr in that post which I guess is what threw you off. He really seemed to think I insulted him, which seemed to suggest he hadn't even considered the possibility I was calling him scum. I mean it's possible he went that route as scum to throw me off but it was enough for now for him to drop back to a null/leanscum read rather than a red read.

[Irrelephant11]

Okay, yes, good
correct answer
NC, RC really wanted us all to believe you're town
What are your reads? I just ISO'd you and only got like three reads out of it.

[Nicolas Cage]

FA_Q2 -- Duck had some of his scum tells and his anger at my push seemed unwarranted. High scum equity

PenguinPower -- Lurked out the duel and hasn't really done much since, a null that at the moment leans scum because I don't think he usually lurks this much as town (but I have limited first hand experience with him as a player).

Shoshin -- I looked at some of her other games and she doesn't usually sheep the dead at a glance, so that was surprising, but I'm not sure it makes her scum. More makes her outside her meta. She has said she's deliberately playing off meta, which is something I feel I more often see from town than scum. Null with a slight townlean, but mostly null.

BuJaber -- Some of his arguments have seemed scummy and I haven't really smelled town bujaber here yet. Null/leanscum.

BrightEyedFish -- He seems a bit more engaged than he usually does as lurker scum here but observer effect might have given him some extra motivation. Townlean for now but I'll see if he keeps it up.

Light Ethos -- Witholding judgment until I see more from the replace-in but Walt seemed a bit scummy

Garmr -- I was scumreading this out of mostly anger and annoyance earlier but his reaction to my 'insult' has pushed my read here back down to null

Irrelephant11 -- You seem engaged with the thread already and I didn't really like the arguments against Ejjinami so null with a lean town for now.

FA_Q as scum, PP and Bujaber as potential buddies, LE as backup, but I'm not really in love with my solve at the moment and I'm looking to see what the replace-ins bring to the table.

[Shoshin]

I will answer this too since I'm voting you. I find that following the reads of a dead player is a low effort way of playing the game. It's a reasonable way of active lurking. Active lurking is not town motivated. Town should be looking for scum, not making a few throwaway comments and then sheeping dead town players' reads or logic.

Why is low effort scummy when town do it all the time?

Also, this doesn't answer my question. Why shouldn't a townie give weight to how other townies are reading the game, especially when those other townies are known for strong reads and have put much more effort & time into the game?

Then as stated above, it's NAI at best. I don't see why a town player would play the way you have, but I can easily see how a scum player could want to play that way.

You don't see why a town player who doesn't care about the game would follow the reads of a dead townie who (a) is known for having good reads, and (b) put much more effort & time into the game to figure things out? What's not to see? And scum would follow those reads only in the event that the dead townie was wrong... so there's not exactly much reason for your suspicion unless you actually know the flips of the relevant players.

Not being willing to discuss your motivation for a vote is scummy. Having a vote tossed out and shielding it under the guise of a reaction test is also scummy. That's a catch-all excuse for an unexplained vote.

I answered the question that was asked. I just did so in a way that helped me get some more information on players. What's odd that is that you're just jumping on that without giving it more thought. None of these things are scummy. They might run contrary to the way YOU play the game, but that doesn't make them scummy. You've still offered no reason that scum are more likely to do these things than town. Like, actual reasoning other than your conclusory assertions.

This is not responsive to the question that was asked. If RC said that he would be invested in the game, and then he played like he did, then you should be upset at him and lose interest either way. That's not a town defense. It's easy for me to see how you could be scum here.

Why are you talking about what "could" be instead of what's "likely"?

The way you find scum is by distinguishing what's likely from what's unlikely. Scum tend to push mislynches by trying to cast "possibilities" as "probabilities." Is that what you're doing here? Or do you agree that the fact that I "could be scum" is irrelevant, because literally anyone "could" be scum?

[Shoshin]

Walt was town, from what I remember.

[Shoshin]

FA_Q2 replaced the worst? That was a scum slot, for sure.

[Shoshin]

Hey Irrelephant, take a look at the worst's posts here. Thoughts?

[PenguinPower]

PenguinPower -- Lurked out the duel and hasn't really done much since, a null that at the moment leans scum because I don't think he usually lurks this much as town (but I have limited first hand experience with him as a player).

So I don’t end up replaced...

content: I haven’t lurked at all. I was in the middle of the Caribbean sea since 10/7 (hence the V/LA). I thought I was going to be able to catch up last night at the hotel but internet was not working. My plane just landed me home this afternoon so I plan to catch up tonight and/or in the morning.

You are right that I don’t usually lurk as town though.

[PenguinPower]

Prodding Nicolas Cage

Lulz.

[PenguinPower]

Just realized that

@mod's

EODuel votecount was wrong and NC wasn't even voting me...

Why didn't you at least vote me - if not campaign for my lynch - if you thought RC would further lynches on your scum reads? Especially since you are still pushing that slot, and I stated that I should be the lynch. You unvoted and then made a bleh irrelevant vote instead.

[PenguinPower]

Even with the replacements, I think we need to follow RC's reads. I don't like the townreads from NC on either Io (BEF) or Ejji (teh Elephant).

I like teh Elephant though...too bad not town.

[Nicolas Cage]

Why are Io/BEF and Ejji/Elephant scum?

[Nicolas Cage]

we need to follow RC's reads

rly tho when do YOU as town follow RC's reads?

You are PENGUINPOWER you are not COWPOWER

[PenguinPower]

Why are Io/BEF and Ejji/Elephant scum?

Hi. Answer me first.

we need to follow RC's reads

rly tho when do YOU as town follow RC's reads?

You are PENGUINPOWER you are not COWPOWER

wut? RC is confirmed town. I already stated we had similar reads. What are you attempting to do with this post?

[Nicolas Cage]

I'm attempting to get you to be more vocal with your reasoning. You're very gnomic this game.

RC just didn't convince me he was worth saving, and if I can't get people to unload the wagon then it doesn't matter whether I vote you or not. None of the votes on him were moving. You were null, not scum, and I'm not going to fight to unload a wagon on a reckless null/slight leantown to lynch a null/null.

[Nicolas Cage]

Your reads might overlap with RC but I'd rather you explain the reads in your own words. RC might be flipped town but that doesn't mean his reads were any better than anyone else's or any better than they usually are. And in my experience his reads are usually pretty bad to be honest. He keeps SAYING they're great. But they're really not, at least not in any game I have been in with him.

[PenguinPower]

Yeah, I don't believe that (as previously stated...sigh, I'm tired of stating it, because you have shown you just don't read this game).

I said I had the mostly the same reads as RC. RC was more willing to support your lynch preference. You did fuck all to help him, and fuck all to lynch me, and now I'm in your scumpool.

I'm happy lynching anyone you don't want to lynch. Or you.

p-edit

how do I do the lol face?



Yep, there it is.

[Nicolas Cage]

Like let's not beat around the bush. He totally fucked day one.

He made the first duel USELESS because he fucking gave up for no goddamn reason before anyone had a fucking read on you

And forced every vote to be locked between you and him for a fucking real life week

while the rest of the game came to a crashing halt

YEAH

I DID FUCKING NOTHING TO SAVE HIM

AND I WOULDN'T SAVE HIM NOW EITHER

I frankly dislike the entire mechanic of this setup and I'm like basically done with this game altogether.

I would duel you, except DUELS ARE BORING because the mechanic is SLOW AND CANNOT BE ACCELERATED which means votes for the first six days are fucking irrelevant

You know what fuck this game, lynch whoever I've stopped caring.

I thought maybe with replacements I could get back into it

But all you wanna do is talk about RC and act like he's a golden fucking goose when his reads are always awful and he definitely was not even sorta close to worth saving

Replace out

[PenguinPower]

? I literally just got back to the game...

I caused you to replace out? Hope this doesn't end up being a strategic rep for obv reasons, but it won't change my read on your slot.

[BuJaber]

Is this the fabled Penguin... Power?

[BuJaber]

I asked him the same question about his duel vote and not pushing for your lynch etc. And he didn't respond to me.

[Light Ethos]

I will answer this too since I'm voting you. I find that following the reads of a dead player is a low effort way of playing the game. It's a reasonable way of active lurking. Active lurking is not town motivated. Town should be looking for scum, not making a few throwaway comments and then sheeping dead town players' reads or logic.

Why is low effort scummy when town do it all the time?

Also, this doesn't answer my question. Why shouldn't a townie give weight to how other townies are reading the game, especially when those other townies are known for strong reads and have put much more effort & time into the game?

I haven't played many games here yet, but in the games I've played here so far, at least one of the scum players has been an active lurker. I don't think that players who are willing to sit back and coast through the game should get a free pass. Your mindset in saying that low effort is fine because "town do[es] it all the time" doesn't hold up very well to me. Town players should be looking for scum or engaging with content as it is posted. When I see players avoiding doing that, it pings me as a possible scum player. Scum players benefit more from sitting back than town players do.

As for your second question: it's fine for town players to weigh confirmed town players' opinions and reads. What isn't fine is for town players to simply sheep those reads. If RC is known for strong reads, that's great. (It's also surprising to me. He was in full gamesolve mode for the one game I played with him, and his reads cost us the game.) However, you do have to acknowledge that the dead town player had much less information than you do when he made his reads, and those reads would likely change with respect to that additional information. The reason why scum players benefit most from sheeping a dead town player's reads that were formed without any additional game information is that it creates plausible deniability for a mislynch. In the case of a mislynch, it was the dead town player's bad read, not yours. To speak to your point about valuing the opinion of players who have put more thought into the game than you have: that's fine to do as a starting point, but the preferable solution is to simply put more effort into the game yourself.

Then as stated above, it's NAI at best. I don't see why a town player would play the way you have, but I can easily see how a scum player could want to play that way.

You don't see why a town player who doesn't care about the game would follow the reads of a dead townie who (a) is known for having good reads, and (b) put much more effort & time into the game to figure things out? What's not to see? And scum would follow those reads only in the event that the dead townie was wrong... so there's not exactly much reason for your suspicion unless you actually know the flips of the relevant players.

I addressed this above. The only new piece of this portion of your post is your claim that scum would only follow the reads in the event that the dead townie is wrong. Yes, this is obvious, but it's not responsive to the point I made. RC is making a set of Day 1 reads with zero flips available. I haven't checked his past games for confirmation, but I would imagine that most of the time, he has at least one of those reads wrong. In the world you wish to live in, where sheeping RC shows town motivation, a scum player can reliably choose one of those incorrect RC reads and hard sheep it. There is plenty of reason for me to be suspicious.

Not being willing to discuss your motivation for a vote is scummy. Having a vote tossed out and shielding it under the guise of a reaction test is also scummy. That's a catch-all excuse for an unexplained vote.

I answered the question that was asked. I just did so in a way that helped me get some more information on players. What's odd that is that you're just jumping on that without giving it more thought. None of these things are scummy. They might run contrary to the way YOU play the game, but that doesn't make them scummy. You've still offered no reason that scum are more likely to do these things than town. Like, actual reasoning other than your conclusory assertions.

I find those things to be scummy. Town benefits from transparency around intents and access to information. Scum is the informed minority. It's incumbent on town to share their logic and reasoning with each other in order to find inconsistencies and incongruences. I contend that scum benefits most from posting unexplained votes if they can get away with it. The challenge is that scum (in my experience) rarely gets away with it.

This is not responsive to the question that was asked. If RC said that he would be invested in the game, and then he played like he did, then you should be upset at him and lose interest either way. That's not a town defense. It's easy for me to see how you could be scum here.

Why are you talking about what "could" be instead of what's "likely"?

The way you find scum is by distinguishing what's likely from what's unlikely. Scum tend to push mislynches by trying to cast "possibilities" as "probabilities." Is that what you're doing here? Or do you agree that the fact that I "could be scum" is irrelevant, because literally anyone "could" be scum?

No. I think you're probably scum. I see you active lurking. I see you putting minimal effort into engaging the game. I know that behavior benefits scum more than it benefits town. I think scum plays the way you are playing more than town does.