Micro 829: The Coalition [Endgame]

[Irrelephant11]

why should I have had you in my coalition in the first place? I RVS'd you there.
HEAL: chara, no lunch (I've decided neither of you are RC.... for now)

@skitter there's a sort of mild cog-diss with you saying "As scum I'd try to look like I didn't care if I was in the coalition" and then Healing Aubrey for saying "oh I don't want to be in the coalition"
Like do you think only you would think of that or

And then after this acknowledgment that you probably aren't on an RC!scum level, and a re-heal of both of you, I'm surprised you would say "It still does not present as though he genuinely townreads anyone."

pedit: a lot of the best moments happen in real time, I agree.

[no lunch]

Given the speed of his hurt and then redaction, it actually felt pre-planned to me.

this requires the kind of thinking that you're suggesting you find unbelievable, so I find this somewhat unbelievable
To elaborate, "sure it's very likely town, but he could have pre-planned and faked it" is exactly what I thought about the exchange you two had, and the fact that you're able to have that kind of thought about me should show why it's reasonable I had that kind of thought about the two of you.

This is a far cry from the truth. I find your behaviour and explanation in 206 strictly NAI; you found out discussion expressly towny outside of your alleged paranoia.

[no lunch]

@Irrelephant11, with reference to Chara's 248, how does this fit into your own perception of your scum meta?
Is this the type of fight you can see yourself picking as scum?

pedit: I don't normally play as much in real time, either. Strong list.

[no lunch]

Additionally, do you see why I'm scumreading you? Once again you are knocking my comments back without providing more sortable content or working through them.

Your flip flop on Chara and myself was a reach to believe. I could forgive it coming from town, and I could see it coming from scum. It's not a strong play, and the only alignable agenda would be appearing too bad to come from scum. Which doesn't help me determine whether or not it had an agenda.

I don't like the timing of it, and I don't like your reactions. You admit neither of us seem like RC calibre scum players yet still felt the need to be paranoid about what you initially read as strong town/town interactions? Your flip flop wasn't convincing enough to pull me over. Sure, you re-healed us both in 216 but your read there felt so fickle, and easily fits into either alignment's agenda. So no, I don't believe you read as though you do have genuine townreads.

[Irrelephant11]

"Far cry"? Hmph.
Is it true that you would find it town-indicative, like Chara does, but for the fact that scum!me might have pre-planned and faked it?

Regardless, I think you are passing over Occam's razor regarding my posting to prove yourself right about your original read on me. I don't think you have spent any time this game considering me a possible member of town, and while I can't make you do so, I'm not sure what response I could give you that would help you un-tunnel me. Consider that if you and chara are both as sure of each other's alignments as you say, one of you has some convincing to do of the other regarding me, so maybe hear him out.

pedit: I don't see myself picking any early fights as scum, except perhaps with someone like Gamma (whom I have seen get mislynched multiple times, and therefore I feel I would be more likely to get townread than him if we argued)

pedit2: Perhaps the weakness of the play should be your indicator, then. I am a much stronger player as scum.
No, I don't see why you are scumreading me atm. I am answering your questions, and explaining why I disagree with many of your points. If I feel you're wrong, should I just be like "mmhmm yep you're town and therefore right" or..?

[no lunch]

No, but I would expect a better effort to engage with what I'm saying rather than continuously shutting me down.
Outside of the fact that I'm clearly confirmation biased, I don't think I've liked a single response you've given me all game. I think we need to stop engaging each other so the game can be sorted around this nonsense.

[no lunch]

It feels difficult to believe that you believe a majority of what you're posting, yet you're just standing your ground and defending yourself. There's nothing likeable or sortable here.

Anyway, I guess I can go and dive scum-Irrelephant11 to see how likely you have been historically to fake reads like that.

[Chara]

i don't really see what you mean by elephant "shutting you down", lunch. what is he supposed to say? if from his point of view he's town, of course he would disagree with you. and he seems to be engaging you on everything, if disagreeing, instead of just saying you're wrong and not explaining.

you actually said the same thing about me when i scumread you, though i can tell you that shutting you down was the last thing on my mind. there can be a dialogue when both sides disagree.

i do think that this discussion has been about as productive as it can be, and i think you're both town from what i can see. if i were you i'd focus elsewhere for now.

[Irrelephant11]

??????

I have felt like our interactions have been super earnest and that we're conversing in a really useful back-and-forth way, and have no clue what you mean about my responses, genuinely? Like as either alignment I don't think I'd go into this trying to shut you down, since I want you to townread me either way? I'm actually really confused about the way you're describing the conversation we just had, like it feels like you're describing some other conversation that didn't happen where I was rude and kept telling you "no, dumb, wrong" without any explanations???
Also, rude tbh

My finished games are all on this wiki

[skitter30]

I’m kinda shocked people are thinking it’s town. I was halfway figuring i’d get fed to the sharks for it or at least get trepidation from it. When Skitter healed me, I was really shocked.

idk it felt super super town to me

this post also feels town to me

[skitter30]

I answered this in my 206

yeah sorry, i hadn't read that far when i wrote that; i thought your response made sense

[no lunch]

I'll take that on board, Chara in particular. (and thank you for the link Irrelephant). For what it's worth, my read on you is a lot more null than I wish it were; I keep getting the impulse that your play makes perfect sense from either alignment. I think my frustration probably swings back to the fact that I don't believe a lot of your play here has been AI, and I'm struggling to get a firm read.

But if Chara's instinct is right and we are town/town, then me continually questioning everything you do and being dissatisfied with the answers will accomplish nothing of much interest anyway. Sorry if you feel misrepresented or as though you've had your time wasted.

I will take a bit of a break while I do a bit of background research. It would be more beneficial to sort other players for now, anyway.

[skitter30]

if the coalition fails, there's 0 or 1 scum in the remaining four, and 1-2 in the coalition. we still have to catch both of them.
i'm not planning on constraining my post-coalition hunting if we fail, except as a way to think about scumteams and how they might be arranged.

Gamma: why would scum elephant be threatened by one townblocked townie?

See, I get the feeling from Irrelephant's posting that he is worried about every townblocked townie.

He is shading us, shading Aubrey, shading Skygazer, shading Gamma, need to check skitter.

I think scum-Irrelephant may actually include his buddy in the group of people be shades, if at all possible. It still does not present as though he genuinely townreads anyone.

i wasn't super getting this feeling from him tbh
i don't remember him shading sky
i don't think he was shading gamma, but rather saying he didn't like his play
i think his reading of my play is fair given past history + i'm pretty sure he read that scumgame of mine that you referenced
i don'tk now if he was shading you/chara either, more so thinking aloud wrt how he felt about your convo yesterday

i don't know if he super strongly townreads anyone yet; i'm not sure it's a problem that 'it does not present as though he genuinely townreads anyone'

[skitter30]

or maybe more accurately - i'm not sure if him not having very strong townreads is the same thing as 'does not present as though he genuinely townreads anyone'

[skitter30]

@Irrelephant11, with reference to Chara's 248, how does this fit into your own perception of your scum meta?
Is this the type of fight you can see yourself picking as scum?

pedit: I don't normally play as much in real time, either. Strong list.

yes! i like this playerlist

[skitter30]

It feels difficult to believe that you believe a majority of what you're posting, yet you're just standing your ground and defending yourself. There's nothing likeable or sortable here.

idk i kinda think he believes what he's saying, partially believe he's been standing his ground
i don't think he's shuting you down really
and i'm kinda getting the vibe that you're looking for reasons to scumread him almost

I suppose there is a separate angle which I could bend myself to view your actions in a more positive light from, but I don't actually have any incentive to view them from this angle in the real world.

partially because of this ^^^^^

and 253 feels kinda reachy to me, especially the last paragraph and almost like negating his townreads? and like calling his play 'not strong' - idk if i objectively agree with that, but even if that's true, i'm not sure that is inherently a reason to call it reachy? like people don't play optimally/strongly quite often; doesn't mean that they're reaching

idk something feels a little off on your end with your convo with him but i'm still trying to work out what's bothering me

[no lunch]

I'll concede the chance is there that I was being bad (anticipating more sorting content while hassling the elephant to constantly defend himself, which slows the production of actual sortable content)

I'm not sure I've convinced myself on this yet, though. Let me have a better think.



In the interim, I'm curious to hear from Chara how strong this solve feels to it at the moment?
no lunch
Chara
Irrelephant11
Aubrey
Gamma Emerald

[Chara]

i'd take Gamma out of there. no real confidence in a townread from him. what elephant said on the subject is something i agree with, his solving doesn't seem all that convincing either.
one good thing from him was 30 but that's really it. and the way he went about it is something that i consider fakeable for Gamma.

[Chara]

i think Gamma is highly sortable, but he needs pressure for that. as of right now i wouldn't call the game on him being town and i'm scumleaning him.

for that spot i want to see what aslight and Eek have to say. and also i would consider skitter over Gamma if we take out the null slots.

[no lunch]

Fantastic response. Sorry for the infrequency of my posts. In transit and the connection is very wobbly.

I have been sitting on the train thinking about Irrelephant. I'm not sure I'm sold on townreading him yet, but I'm definitely seeing where I've been stupid.

[no lunch]

"Far cry"? Hmph.
Is it true that you would find it town-indicative, like Chara does, but for the fact that scum!me might have pre-planned and faked it?

Regardless, I think you are passing over Occam's razor regarding my posting to prove yourself right about your original read on me. I don't think you have spent any time this game considering me a possible member of town, and while I can't make you do so, I'm not sure what response I could give you that would help you un-tunnel me. Consider that if you and chara are both as sure of each other's alignments as you say, one of you has some convincing to do of the other regarding me, so maybe hear him out.

pedit: I don't see myself picking any early fights as scum, except perhaps with someone like Gamma (whom I have seen get mislynched multiple times, and therefore I feel I would be more likely to get townread than him if we argued)

pedit2: Perhaps the weakness of the play should be your indicator, then. I am a much stronger player as scum.
No, I don't see why you are scumreading me atm. I am answering your questions, and explaining why I disagree with many of your points. If I feel you're wrong, should I just be like "mmhmm yep you're town and therefore right" or..?

@Irrelephant11,

This post is growing on me a lot. Particularly the fact that I am ignoring Occam's razor and applying a slanted read to your actions. I'm starting to realise I have an inappropriately inflated need to sort you, and I can't put my finger on exactly why. This is probably more appropriately a conversation to have closer to LyLo, than a few pages into day one. In fact, the best outcome I can actually hope for is to accept that your actions so far could come from either alignment. Not enough water had gone under the bridge yet for me to have a concrete read on you, anyway.

I'm probably going to attribute it to the confusion I had at the dissonance in your early play (which I realise is not necessarily scum indicative). Having stopped and thought about this, if I take anything out of our exchange it would be these things: firstly, you are not going to be easy for me to sort (something I was already aware of); secondly, that the fact you haven't tried to twist my opinion at all should probably be accepted as a sign of good faith.

This post is largely me musing and getting the thoughts in my head into a tangible form, but hopefully it also serves as an apology for any severe misrepresentation/skill-based offense I might have caused earlier.

[Aubrey]

(Still need to take a deeper dive in all that has been said today)

--

But I'm stuck between two worlds right now.

World A: I can't help but wonder if one scum has made the towny ploy by now. That scum I'd say would be within the more active members being Myself, Chara, NL, Elephant, and Skitter. I haven't really been looking for pairing possibilities, but I can't say anything glaring has stuck out to me. Until I do that, I'd say the likely possibility is that the other is within the middle to non active group. For whatever reason, I'm not really that afraid of both scum being in the most active group right now.

World B: Scum either don't know how to get into the towns favor with how loud NL, Chara, and Elephant make it....Or they simply haven't had time to devote to the game. Thus we all have been town bickering at one another left and right leading to the town eating itself alive. Gamma, Sky, Aslighttrain, My Milked Eek. being the lower active peeps.

--

World A is the one i find myself believing to be the most likely possibility and fearing of.

--

Between the separated groups, I trust Chara the most of the actives, and Sky out of the less active group.

[northsidegal]

Prodding aslightrain.

[no lunch]

Aubrey, do you believe one of the people in the active group in particular looks as though they have weaselled their way into being consensus townread? If so, who more than others?

If you would be comfortable, a form of reads list might help me determine where you are at currently.

I feel like a gamestate read would be of assistance here but a third of the list is not contributing.

[northsidegal]

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