Mini Normal 2040: Day 4

[Elsa Jay]

Auro, what part of be careful with your votes don't you remember?

UNVOTE:

[DVa]

Clemency isn't pinging me so far. Do you see anything scummy in his posts?

[Auro]

@EJ: I've put him at L-2 and clearly stated that, are you referring to N_M's quickhammering? I thought L-2 was safe.

[ofrhz]

Clemency isn't pinging me so far. Do you see anything scummy in his posts?

He's null to me. But you have him near the top of your list - is there another reason besides him not pinging you?

[Elsa Jay]

Auro, what part of be careful with your votes don't you remember?

UNVOTE:

I got distracted and forgot I moved my vote on Tac. Sigh.

But still, ALWAYS consult the VC before you do something like that. And keep anyone off of L-1 at all times because we have a very known quickhammerer.

To DVa, honestly I like people who are cautious of me trying to take lead of the town, so Clem gets points for that. Want to see what other reads he'll get.

He's in the townlean even though he sadly scumread us.

[Sashaddin]

BrightEyedFish: He can be Town, unless he posts in the wrong thread.

It's still too soon dude

Loooooooool!

[Auro]

Aren't solid reads, obviously there's not much to go on here, and I need rain to post to get any read. If Not_Mafia is just going to lolcat through this entire dayphase I'm A-ok with him getting strung up. I see no reason to think he will get easier to sort over time.

In terms of overall enjoyment of the game, does anyone actually want to be dealing with this on day 2?

Remember that NotMaf has a history of quickhammering as town AND scum so watch your votes, because he could kill you instantly and fuck over town.

So if N_M is scum and town fails to lynch him because it's just the way he plays, we're more likely to self-destruct and carry a ML.
If he's trolling and unreadable, AND quickhammers as both, can someone tell me why this isn't a good policy lynch? I'm just curious. I think this behaviour in D2 would make the game harder to solve.

Pedit: @EJ yeah I checked the latest VC and votes after it -- I do this regardless of having quickhammering players like N_M.

[DVa]

Clemency isn't pinging me so far. Do you see anything scummy in his posts?

He's null to me. But you have him near the top of your list - is there another reason besides him not pinging you?

In Boundaries of Reality, everyone who accepted being a part of my overwatch comp was town. Is that a reliable metric? Probably not. But it bought him some points in my book for now lol.

[DrDolittle]

vote count 1.03

Day 1, Vote Count 3

tictac

(4) : Clemency, BrightEyedFish, ofrhz, Auro

(L-2)

DVa

(3) : Sashaddin, Not_Mafia, Almost50

Auro

(1) : tictac

Not_Mafia

(1) : DVa

Almost50

(0) :

Elsa Jay

(0) :

orfhz

(0) :

BrightEyedFish

(0) :

Clemency

(0) :

Sashaddin

(0) :

Not voting:

: Elsa Jay

with 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

day one will end with no lynch in (expired on 2018-11-09 19:00:00)

[Elsa Jay]

VOTE: NotMaf

Getting that back where it belongs.

And about Tac... I know I thought he was scum but I feel some people here are getting a little to easy sheep. That's scum handbook 101.

[Auro]

I think at least two of the votes (Clemency, ofrhz) on him are random.

@Clemency, ofrhz: Are you scumreading tictac at the moment, or will you move off your vote?

[Auro]

And people who don't think Not_Mafia is a good policy lynch for reasons in 156, why?

[Elsa Jay]

It's not that a Policy Lynch on day 1 isn't a good option for town... It's also just a way to give a chance for scum to coast day 1 without getting valuable information.

I, for one, would hate it if we only Policy Lynched NotMaf and then I died with only taking out NotMaf, who is doing the same thing anyway no matter if he's scum or town.

Auro, your account is new so I'm assuming your also new, and correct me if I'm wrong there... But what personally seems better to you?

Getting rid of a player who could be a hindrance but is garunteed to be hung before MyLo anyway. Or Getting a player to flip to get information based on who attacked and defended them?

NotMaf knows he doesnt make it to LyLo or MyLo without stepping it up. We know we can hang him at any time. Why not atleast try and find scum for now and use him only as a compromise lynch later on?

[DVa]

Is it truly a policy lynch though?

What is the policy?

I am simply looking at his play *this game* and asking if I see any town. I don't.

I am not saying we should policy lynch him, I'm saying we should analyze his play this game objectively, and not have a "policy of don't lynch the troll just because he's a troll." That helps no one.

So I ask--by what metric is this a policy lynch, and not simply *the best possible lynch on the least town player*?

[Elsa Jay]

But Meta is

always

a factor, DVa. You can look at just this game, but you don't get the whole picture.

Me and Almost have personal experience with NotMaf. When you have experience with a player, you look at everything when reading them, meta and past personal experience included.

Personal experience tells me not to bother day 1 and instead go for other sources.

[Auro]

Well, I suppose his play (minus quickhammering) is then equivalent to a lurker - could get active at a later point, and if not will get lynched eventually anyway.

@DVa: I haven't gone through his games yet but others seem to say that his play this game is like both his town and scum play. Isolated for this game, it appears the least town, but meta considered it's null. Policy being "He trolls in D1/2 and quickhammers which could screw town, therefore let's lynch early".

I think it's best then to hunt elsewhere for now - same reasoning I use with lurkers.

[Elsa Jay]

Consider it... A Noisy Lurker, if you will. Good eye, Auro. He posts but he's not really posting, you know?

[Auro]

Yes, but I suppose there's a difference between a noisy lurker trying to look town, and a truly noisy lurker - latter being closer to a non-posting lurker.

[DVa]

Conversely, if a player is *actively cultivating a meta of anti-town behavior* then we should lynch that player for the overall health and enjoyability of the site.

If Not_Mafia is actively trolling games as town simply to protect his ability to be ignored as scum then he should be lynched in every game until he starts actually playing the game.

We should not reward previous gamethrowing by choosing to ignore anti-town behavior in the game we're playing *right now*

That you are *defending him on meta* makes me want to lynch him here even more, because you are creating a culture on the site where lurking is rewarded. Is it fun to play mafia by deciding how to sort someone who spends every other game gamethrowing? We might as well go to EpicMafia then so we can get the full experience.

So I say again -- don't policy lynch him. But don't *excuse his play based on an anti-town meta*

Just objectively look at his play this game and see whether he is playing in the interests of the town, or whether he is relying on an anti-town meta to deflect suspicion

[Almost50]

@DVa: Continue this crusade on N_M and I promise you I'd get you lynched before him. For one thing; I can read N_M with some degree of precision. For another; if he is Town he has a very good eye for scum. He can be an asset and should never be lynched on D1 unless >I< (or someone else

who knows how to read him

) say so. I've seen him as one shot Cop who got us a guilty on D2. I've seen him as a Vig who took out 2/3 scums. I've seen him as a VT tunneling a scum slot all game until we finally lynched them.

Granted, I also saw him as scum tunneling a Town slot, but that's not the point. The point is if he is Town he can nail some scum, and for all that we know FROM SEVEN BLOODY PAGES he has more chance of being Town than scum. So, can you please find someone else from scum!you to look like you're busy scumhunting? Thank you.

[Auro]

While I see where you're getting at, DVa, two questions:

1. Do you think passive lurkers (impossible to read) should be policy lynched?
2. What's more important here - Overall enjoyability of the game, or maximizing town's winning chances?

I don't find Not_Mafia's behaviour fun at all, and would hate to encourage that.
EJ isn't excusing his behaviour/defending him on meta. She's simply saying that his meta indicates we should treat his behaviour as null, and maximize our chances of hitting scum.

[DVa]

@DVa: Continue this crusade on N_M and I promise you I'd get you lynched before him. For one thing; I can read N_M with some degree of precision. For another; if he is Town he has a very good eye for scum. He can be an asset and should never be lynched on D1 unless >I< (or someone else who knows how to read him) say so. I've seen him as one shot Cop who got us a guilty on D2. I've seen him as a Vig who took out 2/3 scums. I've seen him as a VT tunneling a scum slot all game until we finally lynched them.

Yeah except there's no reason to think that
A) you aren't scum with him or that
b) you aren't scum white knighting him

So far your reads list upon entering the game is "I don't know this person" or "I know this person." You seem to be more interested in pretending that you can use meta exclusively to read players in lieu of actually commenting on the substance of people's posts *in this game*.

Your policy non-lynch on Not_Mafia is far more toxic for the site than any policy lynch.

Moreover, your policy non-lynch on Not_Mafia is based on your personal ability to read him. Okay, if we went with that, and he was scum, say he kills you tonight and then there is no one left in the game that can so confidently read him? Why would we bet our chances of correctly lynching scum today on your ability to sort Not_Mafia tomorrow when there's no guarantee you will even be alive? And that's all presuming you're even town, which so far I see no reason to believe. And that's ALSO presuming that when you say you can sort him *you're not overstating your actual abilities,* which to be frank, I *highly suspect you are* because sorting a player who exclusively lolcats with 100% accuracy is basically impossible.

If I get off Not_Mafia, you would be the next pick.

And, more generally speaking, I do not join games to exclusively think about what people did last game or two games ago or three games ago. I join games to sort people *in this game* based on things they do *in this game* so you having a policy of globally white knighting Not_Mafia makes me want to also consider lynching you for that. You should neither refrain from lynching or lynch a player exclusively because of who they are or your personal relationship with them.

[DVa]

1. Do you think passive lurkers (impossible to read) should be policy lynched?
2. What's more important here - Overall enjoyability of the game, or maximizing town's winning chances?

No, I think passive lurkers should be asked to replace out if they are unable to keep out of the game. Usually they replace out anyway, or start participating when they get a better grip on the game. I personally see *hardlurking* as null, unless the hardlurk emerged as a result of pressure and isn't the default of the player. I do not think Not_Mafia is hardlurking here. He is lolcatting to emphasize that he is maintaining an anti-town meta, which frankly is closer to *active lurking* and is in fact scummy.

[Almost50]

@DVa:

1- If you doubt that I'd be NK'd on N1 or N2 at the latest, you don't know anything about MS, let alone A50.
2- I dare you to try to lynch me on D1. Hell, if I was confirmed scum I still wouldn't be lynched on D1 by this player list. They will prefer to keep me alive for one more day to try and deduce who may partners are via my behavior, voting pattern and the choice of the NK. (I can manipulate the first 2, but the NK would be telling if I had a say in it).

So, either you try to scumhunt properly or you try to observe how the game is going in the next 72 hours before you try to act like a town leader, because it really really makes you look like scum "tryharding". Just saying. On this site we know ell that effort =/= alignment.

[Auro]

Yeah except there's no reason to think that
A) you aren't scum with him or that
b) you aren't scum white knighting him

Regardless of Almost50's alignment, his assertion that Not_Mafia isn't a good lynch option can hold independently.

The policy non-lynch on Not_Mafia isn't based on Almost50's personal ability to read him, rather that it's worse to lynch Not_Mafia compared to a lurker because town!Not_Mafia surviving (to a point where he begins to actually play) is very beneficial to town.

Unless the premise (town!Not_Mafia is a great asset to town) is wrong, his reasoning is correct.