Mini 2032: TAZ Mafia: Murder on the Rockport Limited [over]

[Varsoon]

I should've claimed the block outright at daystart but I thought that I'd have a better chance of catching more scum if I crumbed it and waited to see who was scumreading/townreading NSG before I dropped a hard guilty there.

This did work out in that we caught Gammagooey, but it backfired in that even when my NSG crumb got picked up, town went with a No Lynch over it.

I'm not saying NEVER NO LYNCH AT MYLO. I'm saying NEVER NO LYNCH IN A CLOSED SETUP.
As for potential risks, scum could have gotten another kill--that's not 'really really low'. That's literally 'game over'.
Yes, you shouldn't have trusted Nos, especially given how fickle they'd proven earlier in the game, but you had more leeway on Nos fucking around while in MYLO whereas you had none in LYLO.

I've been designing closed setups for 5 years now, Shoshin.
Can you just take my advice on that?

[skitter30]

no i can understand why you're mad, you did good mechanically (and i eventually realized that you probably crumbed somewhere by virtue of the fact that you approach games that way and that since you started day2 by scumreading gammagooey despite that readslist having him high up that the readslist was a red herring basically)

i'm kinda frustrated/annoyed too but most of what i have to say is unkind and negative and i'd prefer to just move on i guess instead of sparking an argument

[Shoshin]

I just really, really want Shoshin to focus more on lynching scum and never no-lynching in a closed setup again.

I didn't realize that the NSG lynch needed more focus... I thought it was obvious that's who we were lynching... I'm open to suggestions on how I could have dealt with Nos better, because that's actually the sort of thing I'd love to hear about... I don't know how to deal with his type of personality very well, at least not in the situation we were in... but that doesn't mean there wasn't focus on scum NSG...

As for the other lynches, again, on D1, I said I would compromise onto Gammagooey instead of you... but YOU and others pushed an Irrelephant mislynch through against my wishes before I had a chance to switch my vote to Gammagooey...

I admit I was absent from the game for large periods when I could have been more persuasive about things -- again, I didn't say it was my best play, and I'm obviously aware that my play could have been better on D1 and D3, when I was out of the country with limited internet access. But there's a big difference between saying I could have played better and saying I played a "huge role" in the town's loss... If you replaced Nos with someone better, someone I could have worked with, town almost certainly wins this game.

[Creature]

What's even this though?

Apparently I only win games I survive to endgame and I don't remember the last game I was endgamed by scum, so.

[Creature]

Man, my role was pretty useless

[northsidegal]

If you replaced Nos with someone better, someone I could have worked with, town almost certainly wins this game.

i don't think so unless you're just saying "if you replaced nos with someone who didn't vote me and who also scumread porkens then town would have won".

i think porkens could have easily won 3 person lylo even if i was lynched. that's literally what we were planning on.

[Shoshin]

If you replaced Nos with someone better, someone I could have worked with, town almost certainly wins this game.

i don't think so unless you're just saying "if you replaced nos with someone who didn't vote me and who also scumread porkens then town would have won".

i think porkens could have easily won 3 person lylo even if i was lynched. that's literally what we were planning on.

That plan assumes that Nos is around...

I wasn't going to lynch Gamma, so it would have come down to Nos/Pork. Could Pork have won in that situation? Yes. Is it likely if you replace the Nos slot with a better player? No.

[skitter30]

I'm open to suggestions on how I could have dealt with Nos better, because that's actually the sort of thing I'd love to hear about.

it would have made the game a lot easier from my pov if you would have communicated with me more and answered my questions

[Shoshin]

I dunno. You made the right call bringing Nos to LYLO, obviously. Never in my life could I have predicted that he would vote me instead of you...

[Varsoon]

Shoshin, I think you just need to reconsider your reads and be more critical of certain play. When it comes to unpredictable players like Nos, you want to keep them far from lylo or engage with them enough that you know they'll be voting with you/sticking to a plan. I think your plan would've been fine (no lynch then lynch NSG) but it overlooked a ton of potential issues in the setup (like scum gacha'ing into something that wins game or scum using that night to buy something game-winning or scum having roles that are game-winning with that extra night or in LYLO). That's the problem with closed setups. Even then, you should've established your plan a bit more and made sure everyone was for sure on-board with it. This day should've started with all of town voting NSG, and it didn't.


Porkens has no excuse for being globally townread in this game and I'm confident that Porkens would be dead to rights with a scum flip from NSG given how hard he defended her.

[Shoshin]

I'm open to suggestions on how I could have dealt with Nos better, because that's actually the sort of thing I'd love to hear about.

it would have made the game a lot easier from my pov if you would have communicated with me more and answered my questions

Yeah, that's fair. I know it was frustrating for you. But I didn't think you'd ever mislynch me, and I was partly trying to get reactions from you because I wasn't sure of your alignment. I will make more of an effort to communicate with players like you in the future, though.

I also think what you're talking about has nothing to do with how I could have dealt with Nos... I'm still completely confused by his play throughout the game...

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, I think you just need to reconsider your reads and be more critical of certain play. When it comes to unpredictable players like Nos, you want to keep them far from lylo or engage with them enough that you know they'll be voting with you/sticking to a plan. I think your plan would've been fine (no lynch then lynch NSG) but it overlooked a ton of potential issues in the setup (like scum gacha'ing into something that wins game or scum using that night to buy something game-winning or scum having roles that are game-winning with that extra night or in LYLO). That's the problem with closed setups. Even then, you should've established your plan a bit more and made sure everyone was for sure on-board with it. This day should've started with all of town voting NSG, and it didn't.


Porkens has no excuse for being globally townread in this game and I'm confident that Porkens would be dead to rights with a scum flip from NSG given how hard he defended her.

Pork wasn't globablly townread, and yes, he would have been dead with an NSG flip. That's part of what I'm saying. I suspected him.

As for my reads, I do reconsider my reads constantly...

I'll agree with you that the plan should have been established more clearly. The plan would have been to get item/role results and then to lynch NSG. I thought it was clear that we were voting NSG, especially after Pork's results.

I voted NSG... right after Pork's results...

And it was becoming clearer that Pork was scum when he didn't vote NSG after the results...

[Shoshin]

I think a lot of what you're saying about no lynching, Varsoon, comes from the mindset of avoiding any risk of a scum win, whereas my viewpoint is that it's okay to take calculated risks. A no lynch at MYLO is a calculated risk. So is faking an innocent result on someone who you think is town, which I did effectively in this game.

In past games, I've taken a number of calculated risks, and the vast majority of the time, those risks have led to town wins. As I said, this is my first town loss in a very long time. I'm obviously going to learn from it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop taking calculated risks altogether.

[skitter30]

idk how to deal with nos (although his play in 5way up until he voted you was really townie imo; it's really the only time i had much of a read on him all game)

with you, i need to understand what you're thinking in order to read you. if you just ignore me and don't answer questions, i can't get that from you. i understand that you don't like to respond to what you consider frivolous or pointless questions, but from my pov they're important and useful and help me sort you; i rarely ever just ask random questions even if they look like they are; they usually go somewhere or have some purpose or are trying to get at something not directly

you disappeared from like day3 to day5 and i couldn't get you to share reads or explain what you were thinking or how you used gacha so to me it seemed like you were just doing ???? whatever and i couldn't understand it (and tbh i still don't entirely understand what you did that game)
and to townread people i need to understand what they're thinking

and when you decided you scumread me you just stopped interacting with me at all and that's incredibly frustrating to deal with because what am i supposed to do there?

[Shoshin]

idk how to deal with nos (although his play in 5way up until he voted you was really townie imo; it's really the only time i had much of a read on him all game)

with you, i need to understand what you're thinking in order to read you. if you just ignore me and don't answer questions, i can't get that from you. i understand that you don't like to respond to what you consider frivolous or pointless questions, but from my pov they're important and useful and help me sort you; i rarely ever just ask random questions even if they look like they are; they usually go somewhere or have some purpose or are trying to get at something not directly

you disappeared from like day3 to day5 and i couldn't get you to share reads or explain what you were thinking or how you used gacha so to me it seemed like you were just doing ???? whatever and i couldn't understand it (and tbh i still don't entirely understand what you did that game)
and to townread people i need to understand what they're thinking

and when you decided you scumread me you just stopped interacting with me at all and that's incredibly frustrating to deal with because what am i supposed to do there?

I didn't stop interacting with you -- part of it maybe was timing -- but I was frustrated with you as well for suspecting me/Gamma and didn't have the energy to explain a bunch of things that seemed obvious to me. I understand that what's obvious to me isn't always obvious to others, so I did eventually answer your questions. It just took longer than you would have liked.

[northsidegal]

in the interest of fairness to nos, he was just as right as everyone else was - having one correct scumread (me) and one incorrect one

[Varsoon]

I think a lot of what you're saying about no lynching, Varsoon, comes from the mindset of avoiding any risk of a scum win, whereas my viewpoint is that it's okay to take calculated risks. A no lynch at MYLO is a calculated risk. So is faking an innocent result on someone who you think is town, which I did effectively in this game.

In past games, I've taken a number of calculated risks, and the vast majority of the time, those risks have led to town wins. As I said, this is my first town loss in a very long time. I'm obviously going to learn from it, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop taking calculated risks altogether.

Calculating risks is fine but in closed setups you don't have enough data to calculate all the risks.
For instance, here, you didn't know what the gacha would be and you didn't insist it be given to you. That alone was a huge risk. I'd also argue that any results players got from items should have been negligible because scum would lie with incriminating results in a lylo that wasn't going their way, right?

[skitter30]

I didn't stop interacting with you -- part of it maybe was timing -- but I was frustrated with you as well for suspecting me/Gamma and didn't have the energy to explain a bunch of things that seemed obvious to me. I understand that what's obvious to me isn't always obvious to others, so I did eventually answer your questions. It just took longer than you would have liked.

it felt to me that you just stopped interacting with me

from my pov you were just defending gamma for like two or three days and i couldn't get you to explain where the strength of the read came from, so to me i couldn't tell if you had a strong read or were just pretending to avoid either of you getting lynching in mylo

once you explained i understood where you were coming from and why you felt that way (pretty much immediately i'm pretty sure), but until then i felt like you were avoiding the question or avoiding explaining your reads for several dayphases for no discernible reason, and to me that starts looking like you didn't really have any besides for the inexplicable gamma read

again, i can understand why you might think it's obvious and that i'm being incredibly obtuse by not understanding, but to me, i need these sorts of things to be explained in greater detail for me to understand why you felt it so strongly

[xyzzy]

Man, my role was pretty useless

please don't say that about my precious boy Angus

[Porkens]

This game was easy

[Porkens]

Good job team!

[Gamma Emerald]

not likely that porkens gets lynched in 3p lylo

I was really hoping people would sit down shut up and listen to my night plan
But nope, Nos had to vote randomly like an idiot

[Porkens]

man, this wisdom strategy of just calling people scum and telling people to vote with you seems like it actually works

porkens this meta that you're setting up for yourself seems like a pile of garbage

I mean you still probably won't get lynched tomorrow which is nice I guess but for future reference godamn you're getting lynched d1 if you play like this in another game with me

[Creature]

Man, my role was pretty useless

please don't say that about my precious boy Angus

Kids only make noises tbh

[Porkens]

When this game started I was so overwhelmed, I could only really check a couple times a day, read the last few posts, and prodge. Day 1 I thought we would lose, but then bang