Large Normal 216 - Endgame

[AP]

@ofthz: Strong? What's strong about me RBing scum but not knowing if I RB'd them?

A normal RB would have been a better role from my PoV. I used my role well enough (oh, well.. we still lost because I came to the wrong conclusion) in this game to verify N_M did have a night action.

I intended to do that here, but obviously I won't be able to do that because I have been a suspect ever since the game started and a wagon was starting to build on me already.

On my own I yield no info. SOMEONE has to claim they got RB'd on the night I targeted them for me to know I blocked them and they're scum. If I target Town they won't be blocked, thus I can't tell if someone who said they had a night result were lying or are Town.

Now tell me again.. what do you think is strong or enjoyable about my role here?

[Performer]

Before I catch up with and reply to necessary new posts, I need to reread AP's ISO regarding max, shatt, and how AP got on the flubb wagon.

[profii]

so if you are claiming town-disloyal-roleblocker - why did you think maxous was a better target than anyone you'd been scum reading through day 1?

1- I didn't have any confident SRs on D1
2- It is common that the most suspected Scum won't act on N1 (for fear of being caught red handed)
3- Don't rely much on my declared reads on D1. ofrhz wasn't my top SR by the end of D1 in this game, but that's whom I checked and got a soft guilty on.

hmm

1- sure, I didn't either, I don't think many people will come forward and genuinely claim they did.
2- I am not the most experienced at scum, but I don't think I have not used an action that often. I'd dispute this statement.
3- hmm - I guess, you target someone and if they come out and say "I got such and such result" you know they are legit, but this quickly outs town PRs. Your best move is to hope to hit scum as creating innos, whilst possible, isn't really optimal for your role

so I'm not really convinced that you wouldn't toss up the options and go 'well I acted upon slot X because out of the various lack of scummy activity, I felt that even just this single post from player Y was worth trying to block because it was slightly scummy'

so I am not liking that you went for maxous, seems off.

[AP]

AP remind us - why did you target max??

I've just answered that 3 posts above yours.

[ofrhz]

Consider this: if town ap thought max was scum, then his disloyal role means max HAS to hit someone of OPPOSITE alignment in order for his role to work. If max was indeed scum, then max OBVIOUSLY would target OPPOSITE ALIGNMENT aka anyone other than his team. Now, if max turned out to be a tpr too, then town ap shouldn't even risk it because what if tpr max had a protect or some other good ability to help town - then ap would've neutralized max's role. So ideally ap needs to have waited until another night to use his ability, because on n1 he could've neutralized tpr.
Am I understanding this correctly?

I thought disloyal just meant-
AP targets someone of same alignment as him --> AP's rb fails
AP targets someone of different alignemtn --> AP's rb succeeds

[Sephiroth]

@ Performer: Are you an 'alien' jailkeeper? According to the wiki that would make your target completely untargetable which would be different than just preventing NKs and preventing the night actions of FL. Its important to get this piece of info now as opposed to later, I think.

[AP]

Generally speaking I use implicit WIFOM for my targeted actions. For example, if I was a Doctor I would have more likely protected Profii. Why Profii? Bc I hard TR him. Why not FL? Because Scum will assume he will be protected anyway. What if Scum have a strongman shot? Then my protection on FL would have been useless anyway.

If I was an explicit investigative (say a Cop) I would have checked in Maxous Shattiel, and not in people already in my lynch pool. I'd worry more about the scum I might not want to lynch (i.e. not including in my lynchpool) than the one(s) I already have in my lynchpool.

Got it?

[RCEnigma]

@ Performer: Are you an 'alien' jailkeeper? According to the wiki that would make your target completely untargetable which would be different than just preventing NKs and preventing the night actions of FL. Its important to get this piece of info now as opposed to later, I think.

Alignments other than town, mafia/werewolf are not normal.

[profii]

Now tell me again.. what do you think is strong or enjoyable about my role here?

be pretty cool if you hit the night killer. I know the odds are long but that's a glorious plus

[ofrhz]

@ofthz: Strong? What's strong about me RBing scum but not knowing if I RB'd them?

A normal RB would have been a better role from my PoV. I used my role well enough (oh, well.. we still lost because I came to the wrong conclusion) in this game to verify N_M did have a night action.

I intended to do that here, but obviously I won't be able to do that because I have been a suspect ever since the game started and a wagon was starting to build on me already.

On my own I yield no info. SOMEONE has to claim they got RB'd on the night I targeted them for me to know I blocked them and they're scum. If I target Town they won't be blocked, thus I can't tell if someone who said they had a night result were lying or are Town.

Now tell me again.. what do you think is strong or enjoyable about my role here?

I sort of see what you're saying. I was coming at it from the angle that you wouldn't rb a tpr and avoid the wifom that creates.

I still think it's fairly strong the later the game goes and as the scumpool narrows, because scum would have to do the NK dance around you. I don't know if you've read the end of stack the deck, but having any sort of town roleblock is fairly strong lategame.

[RCEnigma]

Consider this: if town ap thought max was scum, then his disloyal role means max HAS to hit someone of OPPOSITE alignment in order for his role to work. If max was indeed scum, then max OBVIOUSLY would target OPPOSITE ALIGNMENT aka anyone other than his team. Now, if max turned out to be a tpr too, then town ap shouldn't even risk it because what if tpr max had a protect or some other good ability to help town - then ap would've neutralized max's role. So ideally ap needs to have waited until another night to use his ability, because on n1 he could've neutralized tpr.
Am I understanding this correctly?

I thought disloyal just meant-
AP targets someone of same alignment as him --> AP's rb fails
AP targets someone of different alignemtn --> AP's rb succeeds

This is how I understood the mechanic. I don't think the targets target comes into play.

[AP]

Consider this: if town ap thought max was scum, then his disloyal role means max HAS to hit someone of OPPOSITE alignment in order for his role to work. If max was indeed scum, then max OBVIOUSLY would target OPPOSITE ALIGNMENT aka anyone other than his team. Now, if max turned out to be a tpr too, then town ap shouldn't even risk it because what if tpr max had a protect or some other good ability to help town - then ap would've neutralized max's role. So ideally ap needs to have waited until another night to use his ability, because on n1 he could've neutralized tpr.
Am I understanding this correctly?

What the hell are you on about??

>I< am the one with the disloyal. >I< need to target scum for my RB to go through. If I target Town my RB is "RB'd", i.e. fails .. doesn't work. It has nothing to do with who my target is targeting, or if they even have a night action to begin with.

Like; if I target you tonight, nothing happens. You will still get your actions through (assuming you are Town, but that's a technicality by now since I don't see your role being a scum role and even if it was I don't see you claiming for no good reason from a scum PoV).

[AP]

I thought disloyal just meant-
AP targets someone of same alignment as him --> AP's rb fails
AP targets someone of different alignemtn --> AP's rb succeeds

That's exactly what it means. Clear and simple. It's the inverse of the Loyal modifier.

[Performer]

VOTE: Flubbernugget
I remember getting scumpings from this, and I don’t wanna vanity vote rn

Permission to sheep (and I will already assume permission granted)

VOTE: Flubber

So this is how the vote happend from ap on flubb. The disturbing thing is, I had GE as sr. His lynch pool posts did have flubb in them, though....3 times in fact. Hm...

AP

- He has very few scumreads I can find for someone that has written so many posts.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Like, everybody's been blaming me for having a LARGE lynchpool!

Still think you're probably Town cuz Scum would be paying attention to make sure they do have a case on me.

I am leaning Maxous over you two. Performer's views today look too weird to come from scum, whether informed or not. They're drawing way too much attention his way for no good reason. Profii I am less certain about because he voted me then flipped on Maxous. I dunno if that was a thoughtless town move or an elaborate scum move, but I'm still leaning the former and I am not yet ready to vote him either.

Maxous' leading the wagon on me and doubling down on an already bad case with more bad arguments is yucky. Looks like scum who shot themselves in the foot and can't find a way to retract.

AP I don't get how you progressed from max not being in your lynchpool & being town, to rbing him on n1, to saying his case on you is scummy.

[Sephiroth]

@ Performer: Are you an 'alien' jailkeeper? According to the wiki that would make your target completely untargetable which would be different than just preventing NKs and preventing the night actions of FL. Its important to get this piece of info now as opposed to later, I think.

Alignments other than town, mafia/werewolf are not normal.

alien is not an alignment, its a variation that makes the jailkept slot completely untargetable. It is an allowed variation in Normal.

[Sephiroth]

Check the wiki on jailkeeper for more.

[Performer]

@ Performer: Are you an 'alien' jailkeeper? According to the wiki that would make your target completely untargetable which would be different than just preventing NKs and preventing the night actions of FL. Its important to get this piece of info now as opposed to later, I think.

My role is not alien at all.

[profii]

I think the only time I've seen disloyal was in a game where we had a disloyal fruit vendor (scum) and there was also a loyal fruit vendor (town) in the game.

If I recall correctly, the scum FV claimed odd night and no actioned to make it look real, then we also faked a scum fruit vend

I'm trying to work out if the disloyal claim is town indicative, because it tells scum "I am more of a risk to you because I can't hurt town therefore, certain death for me"

[Performer]

Generally speaking I use implicit WIFOM for my targeted actions. For example, if I was a Doctor I would have more likely protected Profii. Why Profii? Bc I hard TR him. Why not FL? Because Scum will assume he will be protected anyway. What if Scum have a strongman shot? Then my protection on FL would have been useless anyway.

If I was an explicit investigative (say a Cop) I would have checked in Maxous Shattiel, and not in people already in my lynch pool. I'd worry more about the scum I might not want to lynch (i.e. not including in my lynchpool) than the one(s) I already have in my lynchpool.

Got it?

I see what you mean but I would hard disagree . Having more confirmed town is very important. I would probably always protect a confirmed tpr if I didn't know the setup.

And about hard townreading profii - pray do tell how we can more easily read profii. seriously.

[profii]

pray do tell how we can more easily read profii. seriously.

here is a simple guide

[Performer]

pray do tell how we can more easily read profii. seriously.

here is a simple guide

Haha very funny....

[AP]

AP I don't get how you progressed from max not being in your lynchpool & being town, to rbing him on n1, to saying his case on you is scummy.

PLEASE.. when I link a game I do mean for people to at least go check it.

When I intent to block X I do NOT explicitly put them in my SRs. When I want to investigate X I do NOR put them in my SRs either.

When I want to

protect

someone it would most probably be someone I expect scum would kill that night and not necessarily my top TR.

If I wanted to VIG someone it will be from the "turbulent middle area" on my read list, not the ones at the bottom.

When I removed Shattiel from my lynchpool that was my intended RB target. Then I decided Maxous was more worthy of my "love touch" to I switched them. I didn't have a strong TR on him.

@FL: I get that. I got it the first time too. Problem is [redacted][redacted][reacted] so I hope you'll excuse me if I don't fully trust your read. Not that I have a "strong" read on Maxous anyway, but he's not in my lynch pool for D1, so it would take me more than just your word of honour to sheep you there.

^^ See? I wasn't sure (and I was also teasing FL about his shitty play in another game that has now ended). THIS is the point where I decided I'd go for Max rather than Shattiel.

[Performer]

@AP thank you for the elaboration.

Also thank you everyone for elaborating more on how exactly AP's role worked.

-----
I have ... something more to reveal, since AP revealed a role I didn't imagine would've been in this game.
AP and others, I seriously need your help with this because it's been an immense amount of responsibility, this role.
I'll post about it in my next post.

[AP]

pray do tell how we can more easily read profii.

I'd say: when he's scum he acts like scum!him and when he's town he acts like town!him. It's that simple, really!

[Performer]

Ok so since the deadline is winding down and I never would've imagined AP would have a role like this, I believe this is a good time to tell you that I have 2 more abilities.
1 of them is ALSO a roleblocker ability - the regular rb ability.
The 2nd ability is a bodyguard ability.

I have used neither because I thought it was too dangerous to accidentally block a tpr, and I didn't want to die yet using bg to protect FL in case he really was targeted.
I didn't think I should've told you guys this until AP outed that super bizarre role of his - then I thought, "well, what if we both roleblocked the same target tonight?? That would be really unfortunate."

In total, I am a multitasking JOAT with 6 abilities. I feel like AP & I need to coordinate our abilities.

This is a giant amount of responsibility and I can't do this alone, so I seriously need advice on what should happen. Tonight , I'm 1000% sure FL/me/AP die.