Mini 570, A Small Town in Italy Mafia, Over

[Erratus Apathos]

Err, if either of you had been reading you'd have noticed that I was the one that lead the claims. Pick again. :P

Atualy theres no need for gim to pick (preveiw edit: not that that stopped him) as I'am the only one left to claim, I am bullet proof.

About time that mass claim ended, only tooks us what two weeks to get six claims?

I will rereade the thread some time tonight (real time that is) and post something substantial but theres one thing in particular that goy my attention:

Sendfan: Early on during the massclaim and just now you said town should remain quite until done, But you were first to attack both Destructer and Fireball during the mass claim. Why couldn't those things wait?

[SensFan]

I only attacked destructor after he declined to claim without reading and analyzing. I didn't so much attack Fireball as just vote him.

*The Fireball scenario is as I recall it from memory. Going to reread that area now, and will repost if I did more than vote him.

[SensFan]

SensFan, are you suggesting that every massclaim scenario is identical?

From a Townperson's point of view, yes. As soon as it is their turn, they check their PM inbox for their role PM. They then immediately post said role in thread. Then, they decide who is up next. All but that last step are completely independent of anything that has happened in the game, from a Town POV.

I've only ever been involved in a mass role claim once, and that was a C9 newbie game.

Ah. Thanks for admitting to having experienced a mass claim before. Confirms that you do understand the basics of a mass claim.

Yes, I could have claimed immediately but there's no way I'm going to do that without knowing why the massclaiming became an option at all.

Why would that matter unless you need to come up with a claim?

I don't know if aggression is your 'playstyle'

By 'aggression', do you mean 'awareness of how long it should take to claim truthfully in a mass claim?

but that vote and your treatment of me since my entrance to this game is coming across as opportunistic,

Calling you out for an obvious lie is not being opportunistic.

and certainly not good play.

Assuming you are Town, I fully agree you played poorly.

[Erratus Apathos]

First things first after readung the thread I see right through AP's avoidence strategy. I just cant see a town doing as little as eh has, thoroughtout the game, to find scum.

Vote: Awesome pants

Sens Fan's attack on Destructor screams blatent setup. Sens told Des to pick the next claim onm his own without any help, Then, when Des obeys Sens and reads the thread to decide the next claim, Sens says thats scummy too. The whole things comes off way oportunistic.

Fos: SensFan

I dont see the argument aginast Syke+Mighty. It look like its just cop + doc + masons = too powerfull to be reasnoable, which is silly, since its the cop doc combo that make that power distrbution favor town not the masons. And opinnions on balence are far from universal anyways. The other argument I saw is Mighty claiming out of turn is scummy and i don't see that one eighter.

[destructor]

Sens, I'm sure, if you care to consider it, you can answer most of those questions for yourself. If you still really want an answer from me I can give one, but I'm not interested in getting into an inane debate about it, which is where it seems you are steering it. If you're scum, this is expectable. If you're town, however, you're being really thick.

There was this, though:

Calling you out for an obvious lie is not being opportunistic.

A lie?

---

EA, you're bulletproof?

So... we've got a Cop, Doc, Detective (sanity issues), Masons, Bulletproof townie and 4 generics vs Mafia Roleblocker + [other Mafiosi (2?)]?

EA came across as very pro-town in my read, but his claim is making me reconsider. This is assuming we have a balanced setup, which is a reasonable assumption. Of all the players that have claimed powerroles, I am most sceptical of avinashv (for claiming a second investigative role) and suspect we could have a scum mason. sykedoc hasn't checked back into to tell us what his role said about MF's alignment.

EA, a Cop+Doc+Masons town IS very powerful. An innocent on one mason almost automatically confirms the other without either of them having to be dead. Throw in a bulletproof townie and I'd say the town is way overpowered. I'm near 100% certain that at least one of the claimed powerroles is scum.

I've got like 3 pages left to read, after which I'll place a vote. I've got an large game I recently replaced into that I have to finish reading, so this may take a bit of a back seat for a while. Off the top of my head and based on what I've read so far, I'd be willing to see a AP, avinashv or MF/sykedoc lynch. I'm not feeling great about SensFan either, but am unsure of how much this has to do with OMGUS.

[Niv]

Deadline 10 days from the moment of this post. retractable/extendable, but only in excruciating circumstances

[Erratus Apathos]

mod

Time for anither mass prod Please?

Destructor: Cop+doc-+masons are powerful but not out of the real of feasability. just looking throuhg a few compelte mini normals i found 2:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6958
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6636

they both even had a Vig, on top of that and even then the twn losed both. if theres evidence that this particulor mod wouldnt put them all in a game then you have a very good point, Otherwise we're just geussing the setup with nothing to ase it on.

[destructor]

Good point. Syke's play could be seen as scummy, but until we hear from him about his role PM in relation to MF's you're right, it's pure speculation.

I think a mass-prod would be good. I'll finish my read some time tomorrow or over the weekend. My vote will likely go to AP unless something in the last few pages changes my mind.

[destructor]

...it's pure speculation.

Wait, no, it's not really. Well, it is, but not completely baseless.

Those games had Doc+Cop+Masons+Vig. Ours doesn't have a vig but you've claimed bulletproof townie, which is what caused me doubt in the first place, considering we KNOW we had a Doc. Two ways of letting scum miss a nightkill? That's iffy.

[MightyFireball]

Syke's play could be seen as scummy, but until we hear from him about his role PM in relation to MF's you're right, it's pure speculation.

I'm not sure how that would help. If Syke was scum, he could just paraphrase what I said about my role PM and we wouldn't be any farther on. However, if you think it'll help, I wouldn't be against it. It certainly can't hurt.

[destructor]

If he's scum, yeah. But if you were scum, then you'd have had to fake what you told us about your role PM and skye would be able to refute your claim. Since he was more suspect than you, it may have been worth letting him answer first, actually.

[sykedoc]

Sorry, I've been recieving loads of boxes and im being forced to move them all in @_@

My role PM wasn't specific about alignments, but in a mini game that is so seemingly quite typical, i doubt the mod would pull the bastard card.

it said something along the lines of me being in a secret masonic society and with the current murder rate me and mighty being the only ones left, and i can talk to him at night. I'd quote the PM but im not sure im allowed to do that, i've seen people modkilled for that many times.

[Awesome Pants]

I hate to be a party pooper, but unless the scum have magical powers I can't see how we could have a cop, detective, doctor masons, and a bullet proof in the one game. Assuming the set up isn't horribly unbalanced, I really do think the most probable solution is one/both of the masons being scum.

Skye:

When he replaces in, asks if the votes on him that were previously on Ration can be removed. I find this slightly scummy, and he makes lots of references of how Ration was really dodgy and unhelpful when in fact Ration only made the one post which had no content at all.. this seems to me like he could be trying to cover up the apparent (there really wasn't that much) suspicion on him by blaming it on Ration being a bad person.

Then, up until the claim there isn't much to comment on. He seems to post a lot but not add a lot of content (yeah yeah des, pot calling kettle.. i'm working on it ).

When he does claim, and is somewhat doubted he posts a series of frantic posts claiming that he really is mason and if we lynch him we'll really be 'fucked up' tomorrow. Also makes threats to people that are doubting him, saying if they do lynch him they'll be the first to go the next day. Either he's a mason who believes that he should stay alive forever or mafia trying to stay alive via threats and lots of frantic posting. I'm leaning towards the latter.

Fireball:

Starts off the game by voting Occult (a possible distancing strategy?) and then when vamp claims his results, unvotes and votes him again. I find this weird because obviously he was already voting for Occult, so I'm thinking that he could've voted again to make everyone know that he was on the bandwagon and therefore appear pro town.

Then in his next post, he says this:

I suppose it is possible that vampire could be pulling off an elaborate scum plot in which he claims cop with a guilty result on one of his partners. We then lynch his partner, securing him favor with the town as a confirmed cop. Then, the scum don't night-kill anyone night two, and then vampire can claim that he was protected by the doctor, further securing his position with the town. The scum can then sacrifice themselves, riding his position to a win. I haven't seen any evidence of this, and I don't necessarily believe it myself, but it's something to keep in mind.

and seems to try to throw suspicion onto the cop and even suggest that he could be scum. I think this is a pretty horrible theory as it's really unlikely that the scum wouldn't have killed anyone n1 (they were a member down). He later withdraws it when someone suggests that if it were the case a real cop would counterclaim. Again he seems to withdraw too quickly, when he could've made the argument that they realised given their roles that there wasn't a cop or something, but he appears to not want to stay in the limelight.

Avinashv, it is possible that sykedoc and his scum buddy are trying to get a free pass on the mason group thing, but if there actually is a mason group, they'll out sykedoc (and his partner, should he claim as well). I think it'd be too risky of a strategy to employ in a game of this size, where there is a legitimate possibility of a mason group. I'd like to hear the opinions of others on this matter, however.

Sykedoc, were you referring to me or Avinashv when you said that it was a horrible strategy?

I find this post really quite strange, he throws suspicion onto his mason partner and even seems to imply that he's scum, but then says its probably too risky a chance for both scum to claim mason because if there really were a mason group they'd counter. Well yes, but masons don't always appear in mini games and if you looked at the roles already confirmed it wouldn't be hard to assume that masons further overpower the town so there probably wouldn't be any and it'd be a safe claim. I think that he saw skye under pressure and didn't want to implicate himself by also fake claiming mason, because obviously if we lynched one mason and they were scum it'd be better to go after the next one tomorrow.

So yeah,

vote: MightFireball

big

FoS

: Skyedoc.

[Niv]

Sorry, I've been recieving loads of boxes and im being forced to move them all in @_@

My role PM wasn't specific about alignments, but in a mini game that is so seemingly quite typical, i doubt the mod would pull the bastard card.

it said something along the lines of me being in a secret masonic society and with the current murder rate me and mighty being the only ones left, and i can talk to him at night. I'd quote the PM but im not sure im allowed to do that, i've seen people modkilled for that many times.

10.Feel free to quote your role name word for word, otherwise pms from me are off limits from quoting. Paraphrase if necessary if role name isn’t enough, which it won’t always be.

[avinashv]

Sorry, laptop died. Back now.

I'm not happy about a MightyFireball lynch at the moment. I agree with destructor about the sudden out-of-supposed-alignment roleclaim that was EA's bulletproof. Skyedoc was further suspicious calling this game "typical"--and hey, I'm an insane cop. Mod already pulled the bastard card!

Thanks to Niv for clarifying that. Further suspicion on skyedoc for trying to avoid roleclaiming properly--a lot of suspicion has been negated by the exact role names that have been given several times in this game.

SensFan came off as quite aggressive today, which to me seemed a little out of character. Don't know quite what to make of the Sens v. destructor.

Going to hold off a vote until skyedoc properly answers the town's request.

[Erratus Apathos]

what do you mean, by otu of supossed alignment?

[avinashv]

You're right, that wasn't nearly as clear as it read in my head. I meant that it seemed out of the character you have thus far crafted yourself and out of the alignment destructor and I had given you in our heads.

We don't have a day vig (or, we don't as far as the town knows) so we can't test, and we can't really afford a mislynch at this point in time, so there's really no way to test your claim.

If it helps, I won't advocate an EA lynch today, unless some new revelations occur.

[destructor]

I've finished my read. I feel like the masons could both be town in light of a paranoid cop. Still really iffy about the bulletproof townie, but we've yet to see what other scum roles are in this game. I am more inclined to believe avinashv's claim. If EA is also telling the truth, I believe a scum mason becomes a greater possibility.

I believe we're likely to find the last scums in Awesome Pants, Erratus Apathos or SensFan.

AP, I've already expressed my opinion on. His play later in the game has been better, but I find his lurking to have been really sus.

Sens, I'm suspicious of because I think he's been actively lurking. Most of his contributions to the game have been logical pro-town points that are general knowledge and essentially null-tells. He hasn't been scum-hunting to any obvious effect, but just poking at things as the come up, using the typical pro-town lines and taking apparently firm stands on arguably trivial subjects, again, to no obvious effect. Basically, he's been giving off an impression of involvement without really being involved. I'm not sure I buy his "Minor FoS" on vamp when he voted Occult in Day 1.

I'd be happy with an AP or SensFan lynch.

Sens has been silent without explanation lately, and I'd vote him for that. But in light of the deadline I'm going to

Vote: Awesome Pants

[avinashv]

Mod: VC pleace

.

I have to do some re-reading. An AP lynch doesn't--at this point--sound like a good idea to me. Like I said, I'll reread. Back in a few.

[avinashv]

@destructor: The only reason I haven't voted you yet is because Fox got an all clear from vamp. I'm not discounting a godfather. I'd like to point out some major flaws in your arguments; specifically your PBPA:

Post 176, sykedoc is still crying "woe is me" and that's not all. He's outright strawmanning the votes against him. His play has been called into question but he continues to push the argument back to Ration's two posts. Not looking good.

I am very certain there is scum in {avinashv, MightyFireball, sykedoc}.

AP was criticising sykedoc's lack of contribution when he himself had posted little in way of content.

(out of order, by the way)

You then go on to say:

With this in mind, I find it unlikely that syke is scum, unless, of course, he and MF are actually scum who've fake-claimed mason.

In the following posts, you seem to have discounted skyedoc as a lynch candidate altogether. AP lurked almost as badly as Ration did D1; but he at least put forth some content--you happen to agree with it. Why discount skyedoc? I think the mason claim, even if it genuine, still leaves skyedoc pretty scummy.

I'll agree about SensFan.

avinashv claimed "Town Detective" and now MF has claimed "Town Mason". Neither vamp nor lalmtreasteek's roles came out with the "Town" prefix and they were both powerroles. I think an avinashv or MF lynch would be very informative at this point.

Vamp brought this to attention right after I claimed. Skyedoc/MF using this could be part of a gambit they now know is part of Niv's role PMs. You did bring this up.

I'll happily admit that I agree with the majority of what you've said about AP, your logic just seems to conveniently target AP and discounts others. Who do you think the scumpair is? I'm willing to give you the BoD given the reading you had to catch up with.

@skyedoc/MF: who do you think the scumpair is? How confident are you that your mason partner is actually town--given the role PM or scumhunting or whatever?

[sykedoc]

Just got prodded, still swamped.

To answer your question: I dont have a clue who is, my best guess is/was Sens/AP

i was thinking Fox but you mention in your previous post he was cleared

[avinashv]

I figured it was obvious; but to retort: why?

[destructor]

avinashv, I'm not sure what the flaw you're pointing out is. If it's consistency, it

may

be explained by considering the chronology of my comments. Whatever the case, can you clarify?

I'm really unsure of who the scum pair are. The roleclaims don't help either. But I am, for the moment at least, assuming that the masons are both innocent, but depending on what skyedoc says about his role pm, my opinion may change. I am very suspicious of AP because his play this game reminds me A LOT of his play in the newbie game I linked to earlier in which he was scum. I don't usually metagame, but it's supportive evidence. I'm not convinced by most of his contributions to the game either.

sykedoc

- You still haven't clarified what your role PM says. Can you tell us:
1. What your stated rolename is.
2. If MightyFireball is listed as

guaranteed

innocent.


Where is Sens?

[Awesome Pants]

I'm keen to hear from skyedoc, and depending on what he says we should lynch either him or MF depending on his response. As an aside, I find it suspicious that they've both fallen silent as soon as there's pressure on them.

I posted it before, but I think that one of the masons are most definitely scum based purely on setup speculation. Other than that, I don't find anyone else too innocent except maybe EA mainly because of his good and concistant playstyle and the fact that there was no mafia kill n0 (I'm guessing scum targeted him).

des

: what made you jump to the conclusion that the masons are innocent? It seems rather rash. Also you talk about my play in the newbie game we played together and say that my play reminds you a lot of my play then when I was scum.. can you elaborate a bit on this? Further, could you not be seeing similarities because I'm simply the same player rather than because I'm scum? I'm not totally up with meta arguments but I imagine if everyone played totally different when they were scum and town it'd make games go very quickly. :S

[avinashv]

@destructor: The flaw I am pointing out is that you yourself present pretty compelling evidence against skyedoc, but are, as AP points out, pretty rashly conclude that he is innocent.

You've said (and I quote), "a Cop+Doc+Masons town IS very powerful...the town is way overpowered. I'm near 100% certain that at least one of the claimed powerroles is scum" (#454). You've also said you're fairly certain that I am town; we known the Cop and Doc were town now. That leaves the BPT and the Masons. I've got a fairly town read from EA thus far--roleclaim not included, as I've already mentioned--and while it may just be great scum play on his part, the masons have been reasonably scummy. On top of that, Skyedoc seems to be refusing to answer any questions directed at him, and it isn't like he hasn't logged on here since he was asked a few days ago.

So--why AP? Why not either of the masons? Which power-role do you think is scum?

@Skyedoc/MightyFireball: still haven't answered my questions.

@AP: "we should lynch either him or MF depending on his response." (#473) reads

very

opportunistic to me. Also, the pot calling the kettle black fiasco has risen again--I can say that you've come out of silence now that the pressure is on you.

Meta is important: I've been in several games here, but I started them all at the same time and got caught up in them. The one thing that was consistently good play from members in the other games was meta--everybody has tells.

You make a good point about EA; something I'll admit I did not consider.

@EA: Did you get a notification or something that someone tried to kill you? I can't imagine why you wouldn't have mentioned it if you had, though. Why do you not think one of the masons/anybody else is a better lynch than AP?

@town: Cop+Insane Cop+Masons+Doc+BPT is a pretty hard sell. If it is true, I'd guess we're dealing with a Godfather. What do you think the chances are of destructor being a Godfather?

I should add that I'm playing devil's advocate here--recent re-reads and his last post show me that AP does have scummy tendencies; I'm just trying to get a better read on everybody else. I just want to know why the masons seem to have gone scot-free.

@

mod:

vote count

and some prods please @ SensFan, MightyFireball

.