Starcraft Mafia -- Game Over!

[Varsoon]

This is hype.

So Varsoon I wonder if this finally the game where we're on the same team at like the 7th attempt?? Don't let me down man.

I hope so, but I don't see myself living very long in this one. :/

[Varsoon]

Yeah gonna just go ahead and fly in the face of all you bootlickers
VOTE: Shoshin

I'm also fairly disgusted at the frequency in which people have been handing out townreads like candy.

[Varsoon]

Thoughts otherwise:
Nauci keeps using their vote as pressure on players that aren't here rather than sticking to a wagon and dealing with the possible interactions that come from it. I don't like this.
Mitilos and Skitter are parsing out their thoughts plenty and I like that, though I'm still trying to make heads or tails of them.
The Worst truly is The Worst but at the very least their play IS consistent and reminds me of their town play, so I don't feel horrible about their slot.

What's up you cool babies?

[Saudade]

ye ok AlmostNancy can be town for now

wow I cant believe I'm playing a game with Nauci

cat's probably scum too

how so?

male intuition

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Varsoon

[Varsoon]

You didn't even bother answering any of the points I raised, you just went straight for the vote.
Shoshin, I thought you were better.

[Mitillos]

@worst: Hard scumreading? No, just a bit. There's not much else in his content yet, so I'm waiting to see atm. I'm also waiting to see what the lurkers will say. e.g. I don't like Xtoxm's one post.

@Shoshin: OK, that's a line of reasoning I can definitely follow on Performer.
Edit: Explain the new vote, please.

@teacher: Why does voting someone you didn't get scum vibes from make Shoshin scum? Or are you voting her for some other reason?

Oh, cool, Varsoon is here. Now to sort out whether it's N's N. N. N. Varsoon, or Among the Chosen Varsoon. So far he looks like his town self, so that's not a wagon I'm interested in atm.

Saudade looks like Majiffy a lot. This one will be another one I'll have trouble reading.

[Saudade]

I'm the easiest read on the website what are you talking about

[Varsoon]

All his posts are in English, I have no trouble reading him.

[Saudade]

Ах ты корова....

[Saudade]

עד מתי נוב12

[Saudade]

All his posts are in English, I have no trouble reading him.

Yep

[Shoshin]

Edit: Explain the new vote, please.

His aggression feels over-the-top. His "disgust" towards townreads doesn't feel town at all, especially when comparing Varsoon's town game to his scum game. As town, he himself tends to townread certain players for seemingly nothing (e.g. his townread on Reck in TAZ Mafia), whereas as scum he does everything in his power to prevent lots of townreads from forming (can't reference a specific game yet but will eventually). His vote on me feels thoughtless, like he's just trying to go make an against-the-grain vote instead of having actual reasons to suspect me as scum (there's none, since I'm town and when I'm town it's fairly obvious to anyone who has played wiht me before, and that includes Varsoon). And finally, his commentary on Nauci and others feels overly descriptive; as town he was more analytical and tended to make more concrete interpretations of alignment based on what players are doing, instead of just describing their behavivors and then saying he doesn't know what it means.

Having experience with both town Varsoon and scum Varsoon, I'm confident this is his scum game. His response to my vote is also pretty damning imo, since he's not even trying to sort me but instead just wants to start a pointless back-and-forth between us when he should know better - it'll just clog the game with stuff that isn't relevant, since we just disagree about how to play the game on a very fundamental level.

[Shoshin]

@Mitillos

What do you see as the key differences between Varsoon's town/scum game, and why is this closer to his town game?

[Varsoon]

I provided plenty of reasons for my scumread.
You just saying that there's not any is literally wrong.

Once again, Shoshin
You're either scum or your judgment is flawed.
Which is it this time?

[Varsoon]

His vote on me feels thoughtless, like he's just trying to go make an against-the-grain vote instead of having actual reasons to suspect me as scum (there's none, since I'm town and when I'm town it's fairly obvious to anyone who has played wiht me before, and that includes Varsoon).

His vote on me feels thoughtless, like he's just trying to go make an against-the-grain vote instead of having actual reasons to suspect me as scum (there's none)

actual reasons to suspect me as scum (there's none)

^ Like you say you 'had similar feelings' but you haven't mentioned skitter once before in your ISO.

VOTE: Skitter

I had similar feelings.

This is spineless.
You asked Nauci for a read just to sheep it.
I see no trajectory that'd lead you to have this opinion on skitter, even.

It's kind of baffling that you propose a policy lynch on me and when Irrel + The Worst deny it outright and ask you why
You hard dodge
Then post this sort of thing:

I think I should be higher on the town list, the worst.

For what reason even?

Hey Irrelephant, want to policy lynch Varsoon?

What's the policy, even?

What's even remotely good about the votes on me, Shoshin?

[Shoshin]

If anyone other than Varsoon has a concern about me, let me know. But otherwise I'm not going to waste my or your time responding to him.

[Varsoon]

So refusing to engage with people is 'obviously' your town play?

[Mitillos]

@Shoshin: I'd rather not talk about that quite yet, and wait to see what he does for a few dozen posts, instead of just saying "Hey, Varsoon, here's how you can convince me you are town, enjoy".
Also, I wouldn't consider it a waste of time, so I'd like to see your response to Varsoon, but I won't insist if you really don't want to.

[Shoshin]

I'm pretty sure Varsoon is more interested in proving that I'm a bad player than he is in proving that I'm scum... so I'd appreciate having others weigh in on his alignment, because maybe I'm just biased.

Mitillos, check what I said about the Varsoon's attack on the easy formation of townreads. He himself forms them as town (as in TAZ) and attacks them as scum (reference to come, or you can check for yourself). It's a very clear difference between his town/scum game. And it also happens to be clearly pro-scum to attack the formation of townreads, since lots of townreads on townies make it very difficult for scum to push mislynches.

As for responses to Varsoon, sure, I can respond to his questions.

[Varsoon]

The only one who can prove that you're a bad player is you.

Where do you see me attacking any particular town reads here?
I just feel the overabundance of townreads is too much and very likely not genuine/reliable.

[Varsoon]

Furthermore, me taking umbrage with people having easy townreads isn't even a scumtell or a towntell, it's literally what any player should do regardless of align when, within 6 pages, there are over a dozen thrown out 'this person is town' naked reads.

[Irrelephant11]

@Irrelephant: You jumped votes between your first two posts (which were within a page of each other) as mafia in micro 824.2 (and I note that on that one your jump was away from the wagon on your scumbuddy).
By comparison you took longer to switch votes in mini normal 2042 as town, and even when you did switch, you almost immediately unvoted.
You also took your time to switch votes in mini 2018 again as town.
I'm having trouble finding the third one again, so maybe I was wrong about that. But hey, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

So the scum game you found, I started the game as a lone Mafioso. I was later recruited by RCEnigma, so my unvote of him at the start of the game was uninformed (as uninformed as I am here) and not partner-indicative. Regardless, this is literally "I am cherry picking three of your games (excluding a bunch of them for no discernible reason - why would I play significantly different as IC, for example?) and you did this one thing as scum one time and you're doing it here; therefore, scum." Oh wait, also "an OMGUS vote". Do you believe in this read? You haven't tried to sell anyone on it. Are you just happy to feel like you can justify voting me, or?

I think if you examined more of my games/examined specifically games where I am familiar with most of the playerlist/extended your examination of this wagonhopping to include more of D1 (I'm not even always present for RVS, for example), you'd find this is literally the crappiest meta scumread anyone has ever had - especially since others who are familiar with me have already told you I'm town.

Someone stop me - I feel like mitillos' scumread of me is agenda-y, and I would not like to tunnel on town if I am wrong.

the worst "agreeing to disagree" with shoshin was towny

As in scum-TW wouldn’t want town-Shoshin on his back? So TW doing the opposite of this is “towny”?

Yes, as well as his insistence on having a scumread (on his scumpartner? unlikely. On a random townie, when he's scum? Not if it'll make him unpopular. As a townie who thinks he maybe found scum early? Much more likely.)

I'm kinda being lazy this game (aka I just woke up from a loooong jetlag nap)

I know several people here are muuuuch better/different as town versus scum. Irrelephant is very good as scum. Who else is, since I don't quite recognize everyone?

Also, is there a VOTE: Not_Mafia in the house?

My trip was half great fun, half pollution induced bronchitis (I coughed up a rose shaped piece of mucus the size of a small strawberry AMA), half weight gain from ultra delicious Chinese food being shoved down my gullet by my whole family.

I'll note here that my towngame has improved and it is as yet unclear if my scumgame has improved to match. I think you'll be able to read me this game.

I've got no read at all on Keyser since I'm recalibrating on him haha

+town for Nauci, unless they're partners

I actually want to look at Relly

Hi!

It's kind of baffling that you propose a policy lynch on me and when Irrel + The Worst deny it outright and ask you why
You hard dodge
Then post this sort of thing:

I think I should be higher on the town list, the worst.

For what reason even?

Because she's obvtown

VOTE: Skitter

I had similar feelings.

This is spineless.
You asked Nauci for a read just to sheep it.
I see no trajectory that'd lead you to have this opinion on skitter, even.

She doesn't need to provide trajectory if she's right or if the results of not providing trajectory are helpfully AI from skitter

^ Like you say you 'had similar feelings' but you haven't mentioned skitter once before in your ISO.

Towny for Shoshin

VOTE: Varsoon

I think Varsoon might be town, but I haven't decided yet

You didn't even bother answering any of the points I raised, you just went straight for the vote.

Shoshin, I thought you were better.

No you didn't

[Varsoon]

I don't think you've got the depth of meta knowledge to truly understand how I'd play as either alignment.
You don't know why I'm the Scatman, but you'll sure find out.
I'm on the same page with Mitilos here, actually, I'm really peeved by the fact that, instead of engaging with me, you flat denied my accusations/problems with your slot and instead went for "TOWN VARSOON WOULD DO THIS, SCUM VARSOON WOULD DO THAT", as if trying to bait me to play in some different way to curry favor with you.
Fuck that.
You're not going to box in my play, nor will I change it to appease you, nor will I back down from my most informed and passionate read just because they want to situate it as some out of game beef.

P-EDIT:
@Irrel: Even if I personally don't think Shoshin is a great player, other people readily acknowledge that; that's what I'm speaking towards in 205. I thought Shoshin, based on the way people talk about Shoshin the Legendary Labrynth Slayer, 100% never mislynched anyone, Shoshin the Immaculate, might be a bit better. Guess someone's wrong. Probably me. Shoshin's great.

[Shoshin]

What's even remotely good about the votes on me, Shoshin?

Remotely good? The votes create pressure on someone who hasn't contributed, forcing them to do something readable or get lynched. I think this is especially good because in recent games I've seen scum lurk out to a win doing nothing all game without ever facing any pressure or votes.

Hey Irrelephant, want to policy lynch Varsoon?

What's the policy, even?

This was sort of a joke post (notice that it's post 18), but it was also a way to test Irrelephant (I know he's against policy lynching) and a way to let people know that I have a fundamentally different way of thinking about the game than Varsoon. I never intended to actually policy lynch him.

It's kind of baffling that you propose a policy lynch on me and when Irrel + The Worst deny it outright and ask you why
You hard dodge
Then post this sort of thing:

I think I should be higher on the town list, the worst.

For what reason even?

the worst knows me enough to be able to make the call that I was a step townier than anyone else at this point in the game. This post was directed specifically at the worst, because I don't expect anyone else (except Irrelephant) to have the same read. It's based in large part on knowing my play as both alignments and knowing that I can't fake this type of play as scum.

VOTE: Skitter

I had similar feelings.

This is spineless.
You asked Nauci for a read just to sheep it.
I see no trajectory that'd lead you to have this opinion on skitter, even.

What's "spineless" about this? That's all in Varsoon's head. It shows that he's going after me from the start. I just happened to have similar feelings, yet somehow it's "spineless"? Lol...

As for trajectory, did I need one? It's post 51 of the game. But sure, here's the trajectory: I asked Skitter a question about her read on Mitillos, because I felt that she was sheeping me. As you can see later in the game, when I explain the vote on Skitter, I state that the reasons I suspected Skitter were due to the way she was following my reads (as well as others) instead of forming her own, which felt very different to me than the way Skitter played as town in my prevoius two games with her. That was my trajectory. A question, followed by a vote when I saw someone else had the same feelings. I strongly believe that having others who share your feelings about something adds strength to the force behind those feelings, and in this case it did. That isn't "spineless," though - it's just smart play.

^ Like you say you 'had similar feelings' but you haven't mentioned skitter once before in your ISO.

I asked her a question about a specific issue that had everything to do with why I suspected her.

That's all of Varsoon's questions. He doesn't actually offer any reasons to suspect I'm scum. He asks some questions and then votes me without waiting for responses.