[Game Over] Open 743 - The Crown of Misery

[Leodanny]

Leodanny (L-4)

: Persivul, Thor665, Auro

DVa (L-5)

: Egix96, NotNova

Auro (L-5)

: Dunnstral, Leodanny

Lamees (L-6)

: rb

rb (L-6)

: Lamees

NotNova (L-6)

: DVa

YyottaCat, Malakitty, Something_Smart

Sorry I don’t live in the same time zone as most of you, so all the action happens when I’m asleep.

[Thor665]

You feel kind of like you're sidelining and sticking to tearing down other things.

Same can be said about you

It could - except with me there would be a dearth of evidence to support the claim, whereas with you there is plenty.
So I don't see that as a particularly worrisome rebuttal.

Town try not to look scummy, but so do scum, and it's valid to suggest scum would try to do so harder, so...?

It's valid to SUGGEST, but it's not valid to BELIEVE without any evidence...?

How is it valid to suggest if it's not valid to believe it? I don't see the connective absence there.
It's valid to suggest because it IS valid to believe that scum would try to look town, and might do so poorly.

So playstyles which don't help town wincon auto-earn scumleans from you? Or do you mean you're "tossing" him into a scumlean pool and would sort from there?

Yes, playstyles that don't help town wincon earn scum leans from me - it seems silly to do anything else, why would this confuse you as a stance?

I don't see how that helps you sort more accurately, can you explain? This applies to the townleans as well.

It doesn't help me sort - it's supposed to help others sort me - I've already done sorting.

Sorry I don’t live in the same time zone as most of you, so all the action happens when I’m asleep.

What would you have discussed if you'd been around? Because here you're not discussing anything, which continues to make me want to lynch you.

[Leodanny]

Well I would have replied to auro’s question, with... um... rb. He’s just like wow so true imo lynch lamees

[Lamees]

Vote rb, you'll thank me day 2.

[Thor665]

Well I would have replied to auro’s question, with... um... rb. He’s just like wow so true imo lynch lamees

Then why are you voting Auro?

[Leodanny]

I don’t really change votes, so I would wait for something more.
In this case though, you are right, I should probably vote someone else.
VOTE: rb

[Thor665]

This is not thrilling to me.

[Leodanny]

Okay

Um want to say anything else?

[Something_Smart]

How is it valid to suggest if it's not valid to believe it? I don't see the connective absence there.
It's valid to suggest because it IS valid to believe that scum would try to look town, and might do so poorly.

Eh, ambiguous wording on my part. I don't think you can logically deduce that town are better at looking town than scum are, when they specifically attempt to. That would have to be something that you'd learn from experience, and in my experience it depends very much on the person.

Also, LAMIST is not putting in a lot of effort to look town. It's very easy to say "I'm town" as either alignment, and there are reasons town players might do it that's not to look town. (i.e. because one school of thought as town is that you should just say literally whatever you feel like you want to say.)

[Auro]

Yes, playstyles that don't help town wincon earn scum leans from me - it seems silly to do anything else, why would this confuse you as a stance?

It confuses me because that looks like a sub-optimal way to scumhunt -- some players have playstyles that feel anti-town or scummy in most of their games, so by doing this, you'd end up lynching them every game.
Don't you agree it's important to separate play from playstyle? If a player's doing something scummy, but did that in previous town games as well, we have to judge the player on other parameters. No?

[Auro]

It doesn't help me sort - it's supposed to help others sort me - I've already done sorting.

I was expecting an answer like this, cool.
If you're done sorting and your vote is still on Leo, I'm assuming you SR him? Who else do you think is scum?

[Malakitty]

Buzzwords kill.

[Thor665]

Okay

Um want to say anything else?

Not really, for someone complaining of a lack of interaction you're not being very proactive when you have interaction - I was mostly just pointing that out to get more votes on you.

Eh, ambiguous wording on my part. I don't think you can logically deduce that town are better at looking town than scum are, when they specifically attempt to. That would have to be something that you'd learn from experience, and in my experience it depends very much on the person.

All tells do

Also, LAMIST is not putting in a lot of effort to look town. It's very easy to say "I'm town" as either alignment, and there are reasons town players might do it that's not to look town. (i.e. because one school of thought as town is that you should just say literally whatever you feel like you want to say.)

I'll agree there is questionable value to town doing the things being noted as LAMIST - which to my mind justifies using LAMIST as a viable scumhunting tool, really.

Why are you so interested in attacking a scumhunting style when you acted defensive when I questioned your style? Isn't that hypocritical on your part?

It confuses me because that looks like a sub-optimal way to scumhunt -- some players have playstyles that feel anti-town or scummy in most of their games, so by doing this, you'd end up lynching them every game.
Don't you agree it's important to separate play from playstyle? If a player's doing something scummy, but did that in previous town games as well, we have to judge the player on other parameters. No?

Some players do have playstyles that 'feel' anti town or scummy. But that's a long way different from a playstyle that is reactive as opposed to reactive. Scumhunting is an activity - lack of scumhunting is scummy. I'll agree this might lead to players who play very poorly being lynched every game - hopefully it will teach them to not play poorly. I fail to see the issue.

I agree it's important to separate play from playstyle. That said, if a player plays scummy, Day 1 is the optimal time to root them out since apparently you can't discern their alignment from play, no? Are you arguing we should not lynch scummy looking players Day 1? Clearly you're not, because that would be daft - so what is your suggestion of who we lynch Day 1? I submit it is best to lynch someone who looks scummy - and that can include playstyle. You're either right, and huzzah, or you're wrong and you get info. Both are preferable to lynching someone off an inherently bad case, which playstyle is not.

If you're done sorting and your vote is still on Leo, I'm assuming you SR him? Who else do you think is scum?

Probably you could infer by me saying I scum leaned Dunnstral that I scum read him also.
Why are you asking me such an empty question considering I blatantly stated a second scum read? Are you just skimming and pretending to effort, or what?

[Thor665]

Buzzwords kill.

Buzzword is a buzzword.

[Malakitty]

The game will begin when 10 players have confirmed their roles and all undead have chosen theirs.

At one point everyone but Inferno and Leo had confirmed (so there were 10+ confirmations), but the game wasn't open (so, scum hadn't chosen their roles yet). Could be one of those two is scum and that was the holdup. Doesn't prove anything, but I'd keep an eye on them.

Like this post.

The game will begin when 10 players have confirmed their roles and all undead have chosen theirs.

At one point everyone but Inferno and Leo had confirmed (so there were 10+ confirmations), but the game wasn't open (so, scum hadn't chosen their roles yet). Could be one of those two is scum and that was the holdup. Doesn't prove anything, but I'd keep an eye on them.

Townlean on Persivul. I don't see this kind of post coming from scum. OTOH, Persivul, it's possible that role picking wasn't straightforward and scum might have taken time discussing things first

It could actually come from scum, but more for town points then anything else. I vaguely remember playing with Persivul, but I don’t remember which alignment way back when.

@rb what power role would you choose as scum?

Uh, kill this with fire? I hope you explained why you were asking this in the next page.

[rb]

wow finally a good player in the game

join me on lamees wagon imo

[Auro]

Probably you could infer by me saying I scum leaned Dunnstral that I scum read him also.
Why are you asking me such an empty question considering I blatantly stated a second scum read? Are you just skimming and pretending to effort, or what?

When you said "I've already done sorting" I assumed you meant you sorted *after* the previous posts, and that meant your current sorts had information beyond the inferred scumlean on Dunnstral.

[Malakitty]

I think Auro is townleaning with all the questioning ATM

You've seen my scumgames and I questioned a lot in them, why does questioning earn me a townlean here?

Auro is right. He questioned everything when he was scum in my newbie game. I don’t think giving a lot of questions out is a town tell

[Auro]

I agree it's important to separate play from playstyle. That said, if a player plays scummy, Day 1 is the optimal time to root them out since apparently you can't discern their alignment from play, no? Are you arguing we should not lynch scummy looking players Day 1? Clearly you're not, because that would be daft - so what is your suggestion of who we lynch Day 1? I submit it is best to lynch someone who looks scummy - and that can include playstyle. You're either right, and huzzah, or you're wrong and you get info. Both are preferable to lynching someone off an inherently bad case, which playstyle is not.

No, I'm saying adjust what "scummy" means to their playstyle, and look for players being scummy adjusted to their playstyle.

In the abscence of a good case, I'd be down to lynch a scummy player even if it's just playstyle -- but scumleaning them early just for that seems like it'd only lead to conf bias.

[Something_Smart]

Why are you so interested in attacking a scumhunting style when you acted defensive when I questioned your style? Isn't that hypocritical on your part?

Because you didn't question my style. You called me scum for using it. If you'd merely expressed concern that it was ineffective, I'd have assured you that it's worked in the past. Similarly, you are totally free to respond to my skepticism about LAMIST by saying you've caught scum with it plenty of times-- but I doubt that's the case, and I doubt it's the case for most people who use LAMIST as a scumtell.

I think we've beaten this point quite into the ground; I don't think LAMIST is a useful tell and I've stated my reasons why. Let's move on.

[Something_Smart]

Uh, kill this with fire? I hope you explained why you were asking this in the next page.

What's wrong with it?

[Auro]

It could actually come from scum, but more for town points then anything else. I vaguely remember playing with Persivul, but I don’t remember which alignment way back when.

Isn't it a bit cheeky for scum? I mean, if he was scum, do you think they actually planned to open the game at that moment just to say this?

[Malakitty]

Okay so quick reads. Apparently my Lamees quote died in a preview so whatever =___=

Townish pile:

Rb, Thor, something smart

I don’t like you pile (gut feeling at the moment)

Lamees and leodanny

The only problem I have about leodanny is he is still new to forum mafia, but I feel like this game he is different. Hard to explain, but there’s something about him that’s off. I think the whole well I don’t change votes but did without a reason bugged me.

Lamees I more feel like the posts don’t really have any substance behind it. I didn’t like the first post I quoted more because I felt like it’s I’m here looking like I’m contributing but then not doing anything about it.

VOTE: Lamees

[Malakitty]

It could actually come from scum, but more for town points then anything else. I vaguely remember playing with Persivul, but I don’t remember which alignment way back when.

Isn't it a bit cheeky for scum? I mean, if he was scum, do you think they actually planned to open the game at that moment just to say this?

If I remember right Persi is a very ballsy player. So yes I think he’s a confident mafia player and I could see scum him opening with it

[Auro]

If I remember right Persi is a very ballsy player. So yes I think he’s a confident mafia player and I could see scum him opening with it

Ah, hmm. Okay.
Have you read any of Lamees' previous games?