[Game Over] Open 743 - The Crown of Misery

[rb]

rb (L-3)

: Lamees, Leodanny, Something_Smart, DVa

DVa (L-4)

: NotNova, Egix96, rb

Lamees (L-4)

: Malakitty, bristep123, Persivul

Leodanny (L-5)

: Thor665, Dunnstral

Auro

VOTE: DVa

[rb]

pagetop naked vote means everyone has to sheep it

[Auro]

Er, well, okay... that happened. I think I've seen enough.
UNVOTE:

VOTE: DVa

Does anyone know if she gets this tilted as town?

I think the argument between them stems from a fundamental disagreement on treatment of lurker slots and also frustration at each other's play. RB seems to have finally gotten... more serious, at least to my eyes, in this interaction. He was fine when you voted for him previously, so this means it's not the vote itself that riled him up -- his side of this interaction feels pretty genuine to me. I'm still bothered by his treatment of Lamees' slot post claim, but I don't think I want RB to be today's lynch.

DVa does get this "tilted" as town, yes. At least as far as my own knowledge of her goes, this interaction seems to be town indicative for her, and strengthens my previous townlean. I agree with her sentiment about lurker slots, and I would be pretty pissed myself if all these interactions so far have been TvT while scum lurks to a win.

I don't get why bristep and Mala are obvtown -- hasn't Malakittens been awarded "Most Cunning Manipulator" before? How can a couple "thoughtful" posts make her obvtown? It's pretty easy to come in once every couple days and make some towny-looking observations, this is a slot I would happy to have lynched. Bristep also hasn't made any significant contributions so far, and I think his push on DVa is bad, but I'll comment on that later.

We should stop getting at each other's heads for playstyle differences and fundamental disagreements, because those aren't going to get us anywhere WRT gamesolving. I think we ALL can agree that some slots have been unproductive and lurky, I say we should focus there instead of self-destructing and allowing scum to coast.

[rb]

yeah i agree don't let DVa coast

[rb]

malakittens isn't being manipulative though, so how can she be a cunning manipulator?

[Auro]

what do you mean?

DVa said i was voting people for talking, so i'm demonstrating what that actually looks like

This is petty. Let's please start solving.
Neither of you are going to be today's lynches, so let's not have that spiral.

If anyone thinks RB is scum after this interaction, feel free to go ahead and case him.
Likewise for DVa -- I'm *pretty* sure what she said comes from town!DVa and not scum!DVa, and I will NOT let a slot focusing on lurker slots get lynched, while lurks get away.

[rb]

er no

[Auro]

Oh and I forgot my vote didn't switch back to Leo when I unvoted RB, I think I'm happy on a Dunnstral wagon. I'll trust DVa's read on Leo for now, Dunn's ISO is absolutely underwhelming and not pro-town. I think Mala, while lurking now is due to IRL reasons, and do think she might get productive later, so that's a slot I'd prefer not lynched.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[rb]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Dunnstral]

Dunn, what do you think about rb's push on me?

Do you think we are TvT or not?

If I thought either of you were scum I'd be voting you

I don't believe in lynching people for being liabilities

[Auro]

{Dunnstral > Malakitty|Bristep > Leodanny}

I think we should lynch in this.

[Auro]

I stand by it, going into detail would give you an argument to make against it. It's really for the rest of the players to decide whether what I said has merit or not.

That's the point of engagement -- you make a case/accusation, let the person offer a defense, and *then* the rest of town evaluates it.
From the rest of the town's perspective, you could be:

1. Scum pushing a case on her: We can perhaps figure that out if you both engage on it
2. Town pushing a weak case on her: That'll become clear once you engage on it; you might realize that and change your mind too
3. Town pushing a strong case on her: Her arguments aren't going to destroy the case, so her responses aren't a problem anyway; plus you get the rest of the town to follow you

In all cases, engagement with her about your case on her is beneficial to town in that it helps us evaluate the case *and* both of your alignments better. By saying "let town judge the merits of the case" without pushing, it does look like you're just throwing mud and seeing what sticks, without really taking responsibility for the push - so it's important that you do engage.

Do you agree?

[MiniDeathStar]

Notice

Malakitty

is being replaced for inactivity.

Leodanny

has (expired on 2018-12-16 15:00:00) to post or he will be replaced, too.

[Lamees]

MDS bristep unvoted me

UNVOTE: rb

I think dunnstrel, bristel and leo are town. We shouldnt lynch them imo. I don't know about mala, not enough info. Leaning slightly town.

One of rb or DVa is scum. If these last few pages were scum theatre then wp, but imo only 1 scum between these two.

Leaning DVa now tbh. Egix is correct when he mentioned DVa's behaviour as scum the last time was crazy. Like out of no where started posting "IM FUCKING TOWN" or something like that. Not even sure there was pressure lol. Trendall had a pretty funny reaction to that in the dead thread. Anyway, pair this with the lamist posting in the beginning I'm gonna have to with DVa is scum at this point.

VOTE: DVa

[bristep123]

I stand by it, going into detail would give you an argument to make against it. It's really for the rest of the players to decide whether what I said has merit or not.

That's the point of engagement -- you make a case/accusation, let the person offer a defense, and *then* the rest of town evaluates it.
From the rest of the town's perspective, you could be:

1. Scum pushing a case on her: We can perhaps figure that out if you both engage on it
2. Town pushing a weak case on her: That'll become clear once you engage on it; you might realize that and change your mind too
3. Town pushing a strong case on her: Her arguments aren't going to destroy the case, so her responses aren't a problem anyway; plus you get the rest of the town to follow you

In all cases, engagement with her about your case on her is beneficial to town in that it helps us evaluate the case *and* both of your alignments better. By saying "let town judge the merits of the case" without pushing, it does look like you're just throwing mud and seeing what sticks, without really taking responsibility for the push - so it's important that you do engage.

Do you agree?

Thanks for taking the time to explain the game to me mister, I'll sure make sure I'm a hundred percent better player now!

So here's the thing. I literally replaced in 24 hours ago, had 21 pages of posts to read through and there was still 8 DAYS left of the phase. I had a very early feeling about what I saw in recent posts so made my initial vote on DVa, who then went absolutely hyperactive practically ordering me to explain it. It's that uber-defensiveness to myself and then subsequently rb that sticks with me more. Not everyone will play the same way, rb obviously winds people up to get his reads, you and DVa are the 'explain yourself so we can defend/write dissertations' which can be as harmful to town as much as they can benefit.

[Lamees]

Bristep is so good

[Auro]

Thanks for taking the time to explain the game to me mister, I'll sure make sure I'm a hundred percent better player now!

So here's the thing. I literally replaced in 24 hours ago, had 21 pages of posts to read through and there was still 8 DAYS left of the phase. I had a very early feeling about what I saw in recent posts so made my initial vote on DVa, who then went absolutely hyperactive practically ordering me to explain it. It's that uber-defensiveness to myself and then subsequently rb that sticks with me more. Not everyone will play the same way, rb obviously winds people up to get his reads, you and DVa are the 'explain yourself so we can defend/write dissertations' which can be as harmful to town as much as they can benefit.

DVa was perfectly reasonable asking you to explain it.

If someone cases me, I'd *want* to engage them on it, for two reasons - help evaluate the case better, and also figure out their motivations in making the case, and discover something about their alignment in the process, if it happens.

You actually acknowledge that rb "winds people up", and when DVa did get wound up, you're calling it "uber-defensive" and therefore scummy?

Why is "explain yourself and I'll defend" potentially harmful to town? I think making a case on someone, refusing to explain it or engage with them on it, and calling them scummy for being "defensive" when they call you out on it, scummy.

[MiniDeathStar]

Message

I apologise for the mod error. I use "vote:" to parse for votes and improper formatting doesn't register.
I recommend that everyone use the official vote tags to avoid similar incidents in future.

[bristep123]

um, I forgot a colon is all. Worse crimes out there and all that.

UNVOTE: Lamees

VOTE: DVa

[bristep123]

Thanks for taking the time to explain the game to me mister, I'll sure make sure I'm a hundred percent better player now!

So here's the thing. I literally replaced in 24 hours ago, had 21 pages of posts to read through and there was still 8 DAYS left of the phase. I had a very early feeling about what I saw in recent posts so made my initial vote on DVa, who then went absolutely hyperactive practically ordering me to explain it. It's that uber-defensiveness to myself and then subsequently rb that sticks with me more. Not everyone will play the same way, rb obviously winds people up to get his reads, you and DVa are the 'explain yourself so we can defend/write dissertations' which can be as harmful to town as much as they can benefit.

DVa was perfectly reasonable asking you to explain it.

If someone cases me, I'd *want* to engage them on it, for two reasons - help evaluate the case better, and also figure out their motivations in making the case, and discover something about their alignment in the process, if it happens.

You actually acknowledge that rb "winds people up", and when DVa did get wound up, you're calling it "uber-defensive" and therefore scummy?

Why is "explain yourself and I'll defend" potentially harmful to town? I think making a case on someone, refusing to explain it or engage with them on it, and calling them scummy for being "defensive" when they call you out on it, scummy.

There's a difference between having a strong scum read and a case and placing an initial gut vote on someone. Everything you say (and DVa said earlier) only applies if she is town. If she's scum then forcing players to make a case when it's purely a gut read (and also add to that trying to get the town to try and read lurkers on D1) gives them ammunition to pick it apart and point towards said person's behaviour as scum (then badtown after the flip). It's a gut read, if it becomes a strong read with a case at that point I'll make a case. Until then, I'll play my way and I'll ask you to chill out.

[Lamees]

um, I forgot a colon is all. Worse crimes out there and all that.

UNVOTE: Lamees

VOTE: DVa

I think that might still be wrong

[bristep123]

rules say using the bold tag is acceptable, to be honest this is my 2nd game after a 5 year break so I'm not up on the tags/rules.

[Auro]

There's a difference between having a strong scum read and a case and placing an initial gut vote on someone. Everything you say (and DVa said earlier) only applies if she is town. If she's scum then forcing players to make a case when it's purely a gut read (and also add to that trying to get the town to try and read lurkers on D1) gives them ammunition to pick it apart and point towards said person's behaviour as scum (then badtown after the flip). It's a gut read, if it becomes a strong read with a case at that point I'll make a case. Until then, I'll play my way and I'll ask you to chill out.

I had a feeling it was more than a gut read since you mentioned "weird meta analysis" and something else which meant the case did hold some weight to you. Since my gut doesn't feel the same way about her, it's not a wagon I'd want to join, and I think "gut" isn't the greatest of reasons to wagon at this point when there's significant content. If you do make a case later, I look forward to reading it.

That said, sure, take your time and get into the game.

Are there any other slots pinging you ATM?

[MiniDeathStar]

As long as it has a colon it's fine. Sorry about the fuss.

[Persivul]

Like NN just came back, Yotte slot just got replaced, and you never directly interact with them about Dunn

Like, why are you not sorting them? You just ask bland general questions to the entire thread like "why isn't anyone joining me on Dunn"

Instead of asking EVERYONE that ask someone specifically for a read on Dunn

If you're trying to understand associations and thought processes you need to actually see reasoning

Are you actively interacting with every slot?