[Game Over] Open 743 - The Crown of Misery

[Thor665]

DarkLightA (L-3)

: NotNova, Lamees, bristep123, Persivul

rb (L-4)

: Leodanny, Something_Smart, DarkLightA

Dunnstral (L-6)

: rb

Leodanny (L-6)

: Thor665

Egix96, Malakitty, Dunnstral, Auro

Cool, so that's your attack. I think it's pretty convoluted and plays around with definitions and semantics.

Except that it doesn't do either of those things.

What experience do you have with me that would expect me to let something go if I thought it was scum indicative?

The thing is that I don't see why you would see expending effort as scum indicative. Town is supposed to expend effort. Scum therefore have incentive to expend effort. So, effort is NAI.

I agree with everything you said - but fail to see how it applies to my case.
Scum DO have incentive to look like town, and town DO have incentive to effort.
That doesn't mean that scum will, by definition, effort - and does suggest they may fake effort because they know it looks town to effort.
So?

Replace "effort" with "posting worthwhile content" and explain how your logic works? Maybe it will help you understand my logic also?

If anyone thinks RB is scum after this interaction, feel free to go ahead and case him.

How does that interaction make him look like town?

The only other insight I got from all those pages is a town read on Something.

[rb]

mala please come back and solve the game

[Leodanny]

I don’t know what to say but I feel rb’s still a good lynch

[Auro]

I think it's right to lynch Lamees or rb.

We're in a good spot unless they're both town. If they are both town, I still think it's better to hang Lamees first, but otherwise it's better to hang rb first.

VOTE: rb

if someone isn't the same as they were over 6 months (?) agp, they must be scum.

smart imo

I literally just said I can't read you at all.

I was starting to look back at the RB votes, and this^ does not strike me as towny at all.
Something_Smart seems to have placed his vote reasoned purely mechanically, since he doesn't scumread either Lam or RB explicitly. And this reasoning, too, I think is bad: It's been established Lam is a bad lynch today, and I don't follow how her scumread on RB means RB is a good option otherwise.

[Malakitty]

@rb: why are you so sure I’m town.??

[Auro]

How does that interaction make him look like town?

I'll have to take a deeper look at his ISO later, but why I felt so:
RB didn't give me a great impression through the game until that point -- he was kinda trolling around and annoying people early game, and it looked to me like this "rile people up and make them look bad" was a strategy he was following and finding success in, with Lamees. His reaction to her claim was also bad too, AFAIR, and looked scummy. The slip made him look bad, too.

However, he expressed frustration and seriousness during his DVa exchange -- something I'm not able to fit as part of a scum agenda for him. Clearly DVa was attracting votes (even if for meh reasons) and he wasn't being scumread, so I fail to see why he would go to the extent of faking said frustration in that context. I don't think it's likely here that scum!RB gets frustrated genuinely especially considering his prior play.

Either he was scum playing with a strategy of riling people up and suddenly decided to backtrack in the case of DVa, or was town who was trolling around and got genuinely frustrated at DVa. The latter seems a lot simpler to me, and thus likelier.

Furthermore, it's also very unlikely for DVa vs RB to be SvS considering that was one of the factors that led to her replacing out, so if DVa's slot is scum, that effectively clears RB. On the other hand, if DVa's slot is town, it means DVa herself seemed to not scumread RB post interaction. This makes me incline more towards believing that RB is town.

[rb]

@rb: why are you so sure I’m town.??

you entered the game and saw problems with the same things i did, and your tone is very town

i've also been saying it a lot because i was wanting to see if you'd question my townread on you (not scummy) or if you'd just let it slide and accept it (scummy)

as i see it, if you'd never asked 'why?' i townread you, i'd slowly get more worried that you'd never once stopped to question it. i think that if you never had, that'd be a pretty good indicator of being scum because it'd show pretty definitively that you're not really taking an interest in what people's alignments are, but more of what their perception of yours is - which i'm fairly confident isn't the case and you're town

[rb]

How does that interaction make him look like town?

I'll have to take a deeper look at his ISO later, but why I felt so:
RB didn't give me a great impression through the game until that point -- he was kinda trolling around and annoying people early game, and it looked to me like this "rile people up and make them look bad" was a strategy he was following and finding success in, with Lamees. His reaction to her claim was also bad too, AFAIR, and looked scummy. The slip made him look bad, too.

However, he expressed frustration and seriousness during his DVa exchange -- something I'm not able to fit as part of a scum agenda for him. Clearly DVa was attracting votes (even if for meh reasons) and he wasn't being scumread, so I fail to see why he would go to the extent of faking said frustration in that context. I don't think it's likely here that scum!RB gets frustrated genuinely especially considering his prior play.

Either he was scum playing with a strategy of riling people up and suddenly decided to backtrack in the case of DVa, or was town who was trolling around and got genuinely frustrated at DVa. The latter seems a lot simpler to me, and thus likelier.

Furthermore, it's also very unlikely for DVa vs RB to be SvS considering that was one of the factors that led to her replacing out, so if DVa's slot is scum, that effectively clears RB. On the other hand, if DVa's slot is town, it means DVa herself seemed to not scumread RB post interaction. This makes me incline more towards believing that RB is town.

Occam's razor is rarely useful in mafia

[Thor665]

However, he expressed frustration and seriousness during his DVa exchange -- something I'm not able to fit as part of a scum agenda for him. Clearly DVa was attracting votes (even if for meh reasons) and he wasn't being scumread, so I fail to see why he would go to the extent of faking said frustration in that context. I don't think it's likely here that scum!RB gets frustrated genuinely especially considering his prior play.

Can you highlight the frustration you saw?
I could see 'seriousness' from his interactions but fail to see frustration.

I'll also take your silence as admitting my case lacks semantic/definition wordplay.

[Auro]

Spoiler:

you seem to take something i say, then interpret it in the absolute worst way fucking possible for some reason. i'm trying to not smash my head on my desk over and over, by keeping in mind that you are, really fucking obvious scum right now, but it's hard

just because i think dunn can do stuff as town, doesn't mean i'm not aware he can do stuff as scum too. the problem is, he's not doing stuff _at all_ - nothing that he's doing is alignment indicative, he's just taking potshots about mechanics and unimportant stuff from the sideline. in fact if you have such a problem with dunn, why are YOU not voting him with me?

you're basically complaining about me voting dunnstral, when you agree he should have votes on him, but you're upset that i moved to your wagon instead. nothing that you're saying even looks town, because you don't really give a shit about reads it seems, you're just conveniently getting on current the biggest wagon in the game and pretending it's not OMGUS

WHERE THE FUCK DID I SAY I WAS VOTING YOU FOR ACTIVITY

wow, yes

the sole reason i voted you is because you posted, you're right

do you have basic comprehension or not?

fuck it

i'm just gonna smash my head against the wall until i'm too dazed to do anything but sleep at this point

VOTE: rb

lynch me please

yep, and when im lynched and flip town, you lynch DVa tomorrow

i'm not sitting here having arguments that make me self harm

you're obviously scum, probably with dunnstral.

no, i'd prefer you vote me so i can be out of this game

A few of his posts from that interaction, along with the self-vote which points to frustration.

[Auro]

I'll also take your silence as admitting my case lacks semantic/definition wordplay.

I'm not going to be pulled into this kind of an argument again -- I do think your case is convoluted, and I'll wait for anyone else to actually parse and push me there.

Seems like a better way than me "misinterpreting" your words, and trying to engage while you call it empty words and "fake efforting", sorry for that.

[Thor665]

A few of his posts from that interaction, along with the self-vote which points to frustration.

All o fthat felt about as real as him wow, imo stuff to me.
I guess if you read it as legit it reads town - but that feels like cart before the horse, no?
He's town cause it's real, but it's real because he's town?

I'm not going to be pulled into this kind of an argument again -- I do think your case is convoluted, and I'll wait for anyone else to actually parse and push me there.

There is nothing convoluted in a case that is "I think you're faking effort, therefore are scum" that's a very simple and easy case.
There is also no definition wordplay at all.
Your defense is scummy here.

[Auro]

There is nothing convoluted in a case that is "I think you're faking effort, therefore are scum" that's a very simple and easy case.
There is also no definition wordplay at all.
Your defense is scummy here.

If it was this, I think I already have responded. You thought I was fake efforting because of that "Who's scum then" question I threw at you, and I explained my thought process behind it. You thought it's wonky, but I did show how it was genuine. I also asked you to show me how I'm "faking effort" independent of that question and our interaction after that, and you said it's silly to ask that. I also pointed out that it's my scum meta to effort hard, so I have nothing to really gain by faking effort instead of playing naturally.

I can't possibly "prove" that my effort is "real", and I'm not sure how you'd evaluate it off one question -- but again, I'm not interested in needlessly throwing pages upon pages on this right now. I will be, if any other player sees what you're seeing and doesn't think it's a weak case.

[Auro]

All o fthat felt about as real as him wow, imo stuff to me.
I guess if you read it as legit it reads town - but that feels like cart before the horse, no?
He's town cause it's real, but it's real because he's town?

If it felt as fake as the wow imo stuff to you, that's okay. It doesn't to me. IIRC he said that "kill me" stuff even before and that was tonally way different IMO.

I also don't see why he'd fake said frustration in that interaction *given* DVa was getting wagoned and no one was really scumreading him for it, as I noted.
I'm not saying it's real because he's town. It feels real, and therefore towny. The case where it's real and he's scum feels less likely than where it's real and he's town; therefore if if it's real he's likelier town.

[Thor665]

There is nothing convoluted in a case that is "I think you're faking effort, therefore are scum" that's a very simple and easy case.
There is also no definition wordplay at all.
Your defense is scummy here.

If it was this, I think I already have responded. You thought I was fake efforting because of that "Who's scum then" question I threw at you, and I explained my thought process behind it. You thought it's wonky, but I did show how it was genuine. I also asked you to show me how I'm "faking effort" independent of that question and our interaction after that, and you said it's silly to ask that. I also pointed out that it's my scum meta to effort hard, so I have nothing to really gain by faking effort instead of playing naturally.

I can't possibly "prove" that my effort is "real", and I'm not sure how you'd evaluate it off one question -- but again, I'm not interested in needlessly throwing pages upon pages on this right now. I will be, if any other player sees what you're seeing and doesn't think it's a weak case.

You're now changing the goalposts and not supporting either how my case is convoluted or definition/semantic based.

I'll agree that you offered your reasoning behind why you asked a pointless question - please agree back that I disagreed with the logic of it, and you hardly "showed it was genuine" that's silly.

I agree you asked me to show how every post you made was faking effort and I called *that* silly.

I can agree you effort as scum. Please explain how that precludes you from ever not efforting - and also feel free to explain which alingment I should expect you to be if I detect shallow effort and scumhunting. Because if it's town you need to change how you play.

As regards rb - he was the one getting more negative attention than DVa in that interaction. I see motivation to try to look town, and I think the way people often interpret frustration suggest that's a valid scum play to fake. Is it fake? Not sure. But I don't see it as slam dunk enough to want to call it town, that slot is pretty iffy in all other ways.

[Persivul]

Get a room guys.

[Thor665]

Only if you join us.

[Auro]

You're now changing the goalposts and not supporting either how my case is convoluted or definition/semantic based.

I'll agree that you offered your reasoning behind why you asked a pointless question - please agree back that I disagreed with the logic of it, and you hardly "showed it was genuine" that's silly.

I agree you asked me to show how every post you made was faking effort and I called *that* silly.

I can agree you effort as scum. Please explain how that precludes you from ever not efforting - and also feel free to explain which alingment I should expect you to be if I detect shallow effort and scumhunting. Because if it's town you need to change how you play.

The case how you made it before, and your interactions on it.

I did say you found it wonky. If I *knew* what you meant, I wouldn't have bothered questioning as either alignment. I'm not lazy, as either alignment. Again, independent of that question, tell me where you think I was empty efforting.

It doesn't -- I disagree that my scumhunting is shallow and lacks effort. You're "detecting" wrong. I'm forming reads, making observations, engaging people, and I'm happy to continue with my methods and learn eventually what works for me.

[Thor665]

Again, independent of that question, tell me where you think I was empty efforting.

I don't understand what you're asking me here.
It sounds like 'ignoring your evidence, explain your evidence' so I think I'm misunderstanding it - reword?

[Auro]

Again, independent of that question, tell me where you think I was empty efforting.

I don't understand what you're asking me here.
It sounds like 'ignoring your evidence, explain your evidence' so I think I'm misunderstanding it - reword?

You think I'm faking effort.
Fine, you think my thought process behind that question is illogical, so that's one piece of evidence for ya. You think my engagement with you on that was fake effort, let's throw that in too.

Now, is there any other evidence you have where you feel like I'm faking effort?

[Auro]

Any other post/interaction*

[Thor665]

Now, is there any other evidence you have where you feel like I'm faking effort?

Not as clearly defined.
I might toss in your reaction to DVa/rb as super shallow, but I'm not sure if I think you're faking that or not.
You bringing up the convoluted/definition thing is also very suspect to me as it's blatant hogwash - but that's a different tell.

Are you saying you're sloppy enough as scum you'd keep doing the same tell I'm attacking you over and my lack of ability to show it again then proves you're town?

[Auro]

As regards rb - he was the one getting more negative attention than DVa in that interaction. I see motivation to try to look town, and I think the way people often interpret frustration suggest that's a valid scum play to fake. Is it fake? Not sure. But I don't see it as slam dunk enough to want to call it town, that slot is pretty iffy in all other ways.

Was he getting scumread there? I see Egix telling him to "stop mucking around", no one really scumreading him on that basis.

Sure there's motivation to look town, but it seems highly weird for scum!RB to decide to start "looking town" at that point and drop the trolling.

I agree that judging whether it was fake or not is subjective. My judgment is that it's pretty probably legit -- and I've given reasons for that. I also agree that it's iffy in other ways, and can see why other slots would think he's scum.

[Auro]

Not as clearly defined.
I might toss in your reaction to DVa/rb as super shallow, but I'm not sure if I think you're faking that or not.
You bringing up the convoluted/definition thing is also very suspect to me as it's blatant hogwash - but that's a different tell.

Are you saying you're sloppy enough as scum you'd keep doing the same tell I'm attacking you over and my lack of ability to show it again then proves you're town?

IIRC I was seeing their exchange as TvT and that was my reaction till DVa's weird behaviour post asking to replace out, don't see anything wrong with that.

Yeah whether it was convoluted or not then I'll let other players judge. I'll ask them to look back at my paraphrasing of it, and the post I paraphrased too.

Oh not at all. If that question is your only defined instance of my shallow effort to you, and you're casing me just predicated on that, fayne. I'm calling it a weak case.

If my earlier engagement with you about that was fake effort, that already answers your question -- it does make me sloppy as scum to have done that after you "pointed it out".

[Auro]

Subject: Newbie 1889: Ice Cream (Game Over)

@thor: it keeps me motivated to play the game..

Wow - I'm sorry reading my posts is that painful to you.
Frankly though, if you're town aren't you basically game throwing right now and being a jerk to all your fellow town team by not bothering to read posts to help catch a scum member or figure out a town member?

I was reading over that game NotNova linked where you had multiple pages of TvT exchanges -- this was your reaction when someone refused to read your posts.

You seem like you don't care much that most people find your push bad, or aren't reading your posts. In fact, look at this:

wow can we cop check thor and auro just because i started reading their interactions and now i have depression imo

Good

Where has that sentiment disappeared this game?