Newbie 1907 - game over!!

[the worst]

vote count 1.08

foodcoats

(1)

L-4

: GuiltyLion

YyottaCat

(1)

L-4

: Elements

Elements

(0)

L-5

:

Scantius

(1)

L-4

: foodcoats

u r a person 2

(2)

L-3

: Dongempire, sheepsaysmeep,

PvtUrist

(0)

L-5

:

sheepsaysmeep

(0)

L-5

:

Dongempire

(1)

L-4

: u r a person 2

GuiltyLion

(0)

L-5

:

not voting

: Scantius, YyottaCat, PvtUrist

This phase will end in (expired on 2018-12-29 16:30:00) or sooner if a majority lynch is achieved.

mod notes:

- quack

reading this vote count

Spoiler:

the worst

¹ (2)²

L-3

³ : PenguinPower, a goose<sup>4

1</sup> the player who this line of the vote count refers to.
² the number of votes currently on this player.
³ the number of votes this player is away from being lynched (e.g. L-5 = 5 votes from a lynch; L-3 = 3 votes away from a lynch; L-1 = one vote away from a lynch, etc.)
⁴ list of the players who are voting the player in question.

[foodcoats]

Been somewhat inactive, so here are my rough reads so far;
...
Doge; I like the doge.

You like it? Why do you like Dongempire? Do you like them as town or as scum? What do you think is townie or scummy about them?

sheep; I like sheep so far, looking forwards to playing with him.

Same question for sheep. Liking is not an alignment, and we have a decent chunk of posts from both players now. What is your analysis of their posts? Your other reads at least had a modicum of content. Why are you so softly clearing these two?

[PvtUrist]

Liking is not an alignment, and we have a decent chunk of posts from both players now. What is your analysis of their posts? Your other reads at least had a modicum of content. Why are you so softly clearing these two?

Liking cute things isn't a crime

Doge's posts, baring potential wifom/powerwolfing, feels genuinely pro-town.

Sheep's posts don't really have anything that seems off to me yet, otherwise null.

Happy with that response or do I have to get drunk with you again?

[u r a person 2]

as for my reads; i think at most only one out of FC and URAP2 are scum from voting patterns and at most only one from Scan, GL and yyotta are scum

unvote: FC

Vote: yyotta

Explain.

seems pretty self explanitory to me. I said i thought at most one of you two are mafia then changed my vote. I clearly think you are more dodgy than fc.

Also sheep, what does the whole [name]{number} thing mean?

did scum!elements forget his own reads?

did you, elememts?

I was barely awake when i posted this. Let me elaborate.

In the first post,

Elements states that he thinks there is one scum between me and FC.

In the second post, Elements states that he unvoted fc and voted for yyotta because he thinks yyotta is scummier than fc,

and as he stated before he thinks one of them is scum.

but it was me and fc he had paired up, not fc and yyotta.

The most charitable explanation is that town!elements naked voted yyotta on impulse, or as a pressure vote, or for whatever reason and then made up a false narrative for why that he thought would sound reasonable.

The other explanation is that scum!elements had to make up an explanation for his vote on yyotta and simply slipped.


And I know people are going to say, "Town screws up little details all the time!" That's true. town does incorrectly remember game events, say one name when they mean another, and make a host of other errors that leads to them being incorrectly scumread. I don't think that's what we have here. This wasn't an incorrect detail. Elements' entire narrative for why he voted for yyotta is wrong. His vote on yyotta came just 40 minutes after he paired people up (1 in 2 of us and 1 in 3 of us), so it's unlikely he had forgotten his pairings by then. There must have been a reason why town!elements voted yyotta. Why, then, would town!elements lie about what that reason was when asked later?

[u r a person 2]

VOTE: elements

[u r a person 2]

things about yyotta

I agree. I was frustrated with yyotta, but those 3 posts of hers after I promoted a policy lynch are actually pretty townie.

in addition, i think your and (maybe) GL's reaction were very townie

yours def, but I'm not sure that GL was actually responding to my push on yyotta when he asked my experience level.

yyotta's reaction, posting actual meaningful stuff, was townie

dongempire's response, "I can't even believe someone would say something so insane!" (paraphrased) seemed over the top, but I think it could have come from either alignment.

[u r a person 2]

town circle
scantius, fc, gl

town lean
yyotta, urist

null
sheep

scum lean
dongempire, elements,

[Donempire]

Spoiler: bad response

Where is the inconsistency?

>Have interaction with Scantius that raises concerns about his alignment

>Explain my thought process in the middle of engaging/evaluating him because I'm asked to
>Continue engaging with scantius and evaluate him as town
>try to rebuild relationship strained by early engagement

@dong With respect, I believe you have misunderstood my interaction with Scantius. I laid out how I thought Scantius' posts about early pressure were inconsistent, and that line of reasoning led me to asking him about his RVS post. I didn't assert that his RVS vote had an ulterior motive. I simply said it suggested a thought process that was inconsistent with his later postings.

As to not making up my mind about his alignment?
>Initially my gut said he was town (this is not a strong read, my gut isn't known for accuracy. I was still evaluating him.) After continuing to interact with scantius my read became more firm and I said I thought he was town. This is how forming reads works!

I assume you mean post 8? I already explained why i thought it was irrelevant.

Yes, doing that while also shading him, beating around the bush, sitting on all sorts and colors of fences and being contradictory. This isnt an excuse.
Nope. First you are still suspicious of him, and then two posts later you are townreading him. This is the only post you made that apparently made you change your mind from scumreading scan:

Scantius, let's change the subject.

You've gotten to engage with numerous players as a result of being scum read.

Have you made any reads as a result?

So you say that a single response, which you consider to be engaging in discussion, made you instantly change your mind to townreading him?
In case you are wondering,

scantius never responded to this.

So there, are you happy now?

P-edit: You are still sitting on the fence. "dong is scumreading me, bad, but it could be town or wolf, idk"
what a great fucking read. And im the over the top? You're flinging shit at me and hoping it will stick. Get real
I'm going to respond to why that post is bullshit now

[u r a person 2]

are you trying to convince me that I'm scum? that's not going to work..

If you want to convince me that my thought process is wrong so that we can work, I'll respond better to a less hostile tone.

If you want to convince others that I'm scum, then address them or ask me questions that you think will help bolster your case.

advice is good regardless of your alignment ;P

[Donempire]

things about yyotta

I agree. I was frustrated with yyotta, but those 3 posts of hers after I promoted a policy lynch are actually pretty townie.

in addition, i think your and (maybe) GL's reaction were very townie

yours def, but I'm not sure that GL was actually responding to my push on yyotta when he asked my experience level.

yyotta's reaction, posting actual meaningful stuff, was townie

dongempire's response, "I can't even believe someone would say something so insane!" (paraphrased) seemed over the top, but I think it could have come from either alignment.

ahhhh well
no.

Yvotta's posts are useless. One is an unexplained read, one is a question somewhat, and the last viewtopic.php?p=10620399#p10620399 is a needlessly aggressive response to an unvote. Which part is tonwy?

Yyotta didnt post meaningfull stuff. She didnt post anything that remotely resembled meaningful stuff or things that made sense. If you say so though, i would like to have a few references to the posts that apparently made sense.

As i just said, stop sitting on the fence already. Its page 7, time for more concrete reads. And i am the guy you are scumreading, why are you holding back? Im saying this as an advice, irrelevant to the game at hand, so take it to heart. Dont hold back no matter which faction you are if you believe someone is scum. This is a game, no one gets offended by getting scumread.

[Donempire]

are you trying to convince me that I'm scum? that's not going to work..

If you want to convince me that my thought process is wrong so that we can work, I'll respond better to a less hostile tone.

If you want to convince others that I'm scum, then address them or ask me questions that you think will help bolster your case.

advice is good regardless of your alignment ;P

I'm trying to explain your post is shot, so yeah, your thought process is wrong.

I'm not trying to build up a case, i already did, the policy is only one case max per user, so you are out of luck im afraid . Right now i am just trying to respond to your response, which i also think is just as bad.
I dont see the point of you asking me this though

[u r a person 2]

As i just said, stop sitting on the fence already. Its page 7, time for more concrete reads. And i am the guy you are scumreading, why are you holding back? Im saying this as an advice, irrelevant to the game at hand, so take it to heart. Dont hold back no matter which faction you are if you believe someone is scum. This is a game, no one gets offended by getting scumread.

I don't think I'm fence sitting at all. I think my positions are quite clear and have been from the start. I think what you're reading as "holding back" is actually just me not being hostile. Regardless of your alignment, u r a person, 2. I can call you scum and still engage you with measured tone of voice.

That said, maybe I am fence sitting because this level of tunneling and aggression ("every post you make is bad and is obv!scum omg!) comes far more often from town than scum in my experience. game might be harder than i thought

[u r a person 2]

@Yyotta nice to see you interacting with us more this time around. How do you currently feel about URAP2 and Scantius (St)?

Scantius is leaning towards scum for me, URAP2 is town

unvote: FC

Vote: yyotta

Explain.

UNVOTE Yyotta

Nice fake there.
Don't think anyone is going to miss the colon is missing?
Well, you're wrong.

Having played a game with yyotta, I think this is a townie look for her. I get it, she doesn't make it easy to get a read, but this is townie enough that I don't want to policy lynch her

[Elements]

@urap2 town makes slips up all the time

the reasoning i wrote was the reasoning i would've used if i'd voted you. (i wasn't sure who to vote for out of you and yyotta) i clearly messed up who i voted for with the reasoning.
the reasoning is 1)yyotta is my most suspicious out of them, scan and GL and 2) if they flip mafia it gives me two town reads which is better than the one if you flip mafia

[Donempire]

I didnt shade him
Reread my post please and explain what you got from that

You tore down his argument, which I'm reading as basically the same thing. It's like the opposite of discrediting the messenger to discredit the message.

i didnt do an analysis on 39????
I think this is what you get wrong, that every post must have a secret and underlying meaning, and an ulterior motive. I didnt have one, all i did was think on what i was given and ask a question. post 8 did neither.

I really don't get this. I think you

did

provide an analysis by breaking down what was good and bad in his post.

I wasnt suspicious of scan, so i didnt bother wagoning what i believed to be a dead end. In case you are wondering, i believe he is town from his posts. I just wanted an explanation for 22.

What specifically from Scantius' posts makes you townread him? From what you've posted so far, I understand that you don't totally agree with his reasoning... but you have also claimed not to have done any analysis. Why would you read Scantius town from that position?

No it isnt. If i wanted to shade him,
1: I wouldnt adress him directly
2: I would put in a lot of snarky remarks (" i get a lot of bad vibes from him etc")
3: I would actually accuse him of something, which i dont.
So i dont get this " you were shading" argument at all. I wasnt. I know i wasnt because i wasnt even suspicious of him.

And again, i didnt provide an analysis. Only one post caught my eye, 22, and i posted my short thoughts on it. If you believe it is an analysis, feel free. I feel it isnt substantial enough to deserve that term, but what do i know.

I dont like talking about my reasons for townreads, but i will make an exception for you.
I feel that he wants to participate in the discussion to be of help, instead of just trying to blend in. His posts, while i couldnt figure out the reasoning for them being there at first, now i believe he put them there because he thought it would help with our focus. Im referring to 20 in this case. And after reading his explanations for his actions, even though i may not agree with them fullheartedly, scum wouldnt go this out of their way to post their thoughts. here
Basically, him being the spotlight player is no doubt a green flag for me. If he was scum, he couldve just voted RVS, hopped on the nearest wagon and rode the express train to easy victory.

P-edit: Okay, i can understand that. However, metareading is one thing i absolutely hate. I understand you townread her based on your experience, yet i dont have a previously played game with her, and what i see is a random number generator popping out randomized quotes.

[u r a person 2]

And if Elements is indeed scum, his red flip will basically conf!town yyotta because there is no way two scum mess up such a simple interaction as "explain why you voted me" and in the case of scum!elements, it was exactly that which exposed him.

p.edit. Elements, your response doesn't make sense. You were responding to yyotta, and quoting your vote on yyotta. There were a number of indicators outside of your own memory that should have informed you that your vote was on yyotta and not on me.

[Donempire]

I don't think I'm fence sitting at all. I think my positions are quite clear and have been from the start. I think what you're reading as "holding back" is actually just me not being hostile. Regardless of your alignment, u r a person,
That said, maybe I am fence sitting because this level of tunneling and aggression ("every post you make is bad and is obv!scum omg!) comes far more often from town than scum in my experience. game might be harder than i thought

I don't think I'm fence sitting at all. I think my positions are quite clear and have been from the start.
That said, maybe I am fence sitting because this level of tunneling and aggression

I don't think I'm fence sitting at all. .
That said, maybe I am fence sitting

I don't think I'm fence sitting at all. .
That said, maybe I am fence sitting

[u r a person 2]

P-edit: Okay, i can understand that. However, metareading is one thing i absolutely hate. I understand you townread her based on your experience, yet i dont have a previously played game with her, and what i see is a random number generator popping out randomized quotes.

I can respect disliking using meta, and I am quite sympathetic to your experience trying to read yyotta

[u r a person 2]

I don't think I'm fence sitting at all. .
That said, maybe I am fence sitting

I thought you'd enjoy that

[sheepsaysmeep]

i read through yyotta's iso and like

while it's as pointed out very empty of any reasoning and depth

i sdtill think it looks like there could very well be some solving going on in their head and theyre just like doing their own thing but if you think on it it's unfair to say theyre not solving because theyre not posting reasons or it's not really understandable

i just get the feeling that they dont actually care about how theyre being read and are just like let me do my own solving

[Elements]

And if Elements is indeed scum, his red flip will basically conf!town yyotta because there is no way two scum mess up such a simple interaction as "explain why you voted me" and in the case of scum!elements, it was exactly that which exposed him.

p.edit. Elements, your response doesn't make sense. You were responding to yyotta, and quoting your vote on yyotta. There were a number of indicators outside of your own memory that should have informed you that your vote was on yyotta and not on me.

well whatever i did it was clearly catastrophically wrong. but now you know my reasoning for voting

[u r a person 2]

@elements Would you mind talking about your conclusion that only one in {yyotta, GL, Scantius} is scum?

[Elements]

yyotta's first post involved accusing scantius or being scum, this carried forward for a bit. I have never met anyone who, as their first play, hits on their fellow mafia especially if there is only 2 of them. The risk is just too high. The same reasoning applies for GL and scan
Also GL had already voted fore them so to come in and straight away follow their mafia buddy also would throw suspicion if either of them was found out. Again a bad play for mafia.

[foodcoats]

So, Dongempire has been my biggest scumread thus far, but it's recent posts have given me a much townier vibe (largely based on the righteous tone). One of the things that also popped at me was Dong's read on URAP about URAP's interaction with Scantius:

So you say that a single response, which you consider to be engaging in discussion, made you instantly change your mind to townreading him?
In case you are wondering,

scantius never responded to this.

I don't know if it's exactly how DE was reading this, but going back over URAP's interrogation of Scantius, it is a neat trick if scum!URAP means to pocket town!Scantius there. URAP digs into Scantius's possible inconsistencies around the wagoning, but also moves pretty quickly to clear Scantius and reassure him URAP thinks he's town after Scantius sticks to his guns. scum!URAP could have found Scantius a difficult target (Scantius is pretty stoic compared to, for example, DE or Yyotta) and tried to buddy him before moving on.

That said, I'm generally having difficulty with URAP's ISO. I've been reading URAP as town throughout, but I know URAP is a pretty suave player, and there are some things that stick out at me:

URAP, I do not even really understand the logic of your response here when I asked about whether you thought Scantius's inconsistencies were scum indicative. Why would town!Scantius be anything but genuine in making his initial RVS vote? Why would town!Scantius need to blend in? I don't even understand why this would be a thing. This seems like a scum perspective from URAP.

The question is then,

Is town!scantius not being genuine when he makes his initial post, and instead just trying to conform to what he believes RVS should look like in order to fit in?

The logic in this post is also incredibly confusing to me. I know that I am a trends-reader and not so much for the details, but I don't understand how 1) this would come from scum!Elements rather than town!Elements and 2) I'm pretty sure it's not logically inconsistent at all. Elements could read, for example, that URAP and Yyotta are the scum team, no?

In the first post,

Elements states that he thinks there is one scum between me and FC.

In the second post, Elements states that he unvoted fc and voted for yyotta because he thinks yyotta is scummier than fc,

and as he stated before he thinks one of them is scum.

but it was me and fc he had paired up, not fc and yyotta.

The most charitable explanation is that town!elements naked voted yyotta on impulse, or as a pressure vote, or for whatever reason and then made up a false narrative for why that he thought would sound reasonable.

The other explanation is that scum!elements had to make up an explanation for his vote on yyotta and simply slipped.

I just don't get the logic that builds this post. Unless I'm missing something, the logical coherence in Elements' line of thinking is fine thus far, and he can put together a series of likelihoods that make Yyotta his best vote while still considering that you or I are scum. It seems like you're dicing the details far too finely and looking to indict Elements for a small inconsistency. My feel is that this kind of chink-in-the-armour seeking is a scummy agenda on D1. It might make sense as we get more information to narrow down our POE that we would look for these kind of inconsistencies (if this even is inconsistent from Elements), but right now I don't like it.

[the worst]

quack