Starcraft Mafia -- Game Over!

[Nauci]

So Keyser claimed informed gunsmith but I don't think he ever claimed his information
Which is something you would think town would claim
I just don't know why.

I think he said his info is that he knows there's a 3p anti town and it's why he was hunting for it (remember when I questioned why the hell his first reaction was to suspect creature of being 3p instead of scum? Apparently this is why)

It made me feel like he was scum informed that there's a 3p tbh

[Varsoon]

I feel like there are a several misunderstandings in your posts, performer (e.g. varsoon has only ever sarcastically said shoshin is 100% accurate)

Also I don't remember Irrelephant saying what Rory Swann's job was? (Fwiw, he was an engineer who created all of the weaponry for the protagonist, hence why I thought gunsmith would have been appropriate)

I'm having a hard time parsing some of what you said

What are these misunderstandings?

About vars I have to disagree as Vars' continued faith in shos stopped sounding like sarcasm and sounded like he was a religious believer.

What's the relevance of Rory's job? I did a lookup and went with the result I found , as I didn't even remember who Rory was in the SC series so I had to look into it. As for gunsmith, I don't know about that but I
took his claim at face value of him stating he was a PGO , and I'm thinking it's likelier than not.

What are you having hard time with for parsing - what's unclear?

heavy tpr spec in this setup is probably bad. turst me on this one

?

I actually find it helpful in normals and games that have been touched by at least 1 member of the NRG . Also flavor speculating if claimed flavors make sense, should help in flavored/themed games like this one.

I feel like there are a several misunderstandings in your posts, performer (e.g. varsoon has only ever sarcastically said shoshin is 100% accurate)

Also I don't remember Irrelephant saying what Rory Swann's job was? (Fwiw, he was an engineer who created all of the weaponry for the protagonist, hence why I thought gunsmith would have been appropriate)

I'm having a hard time parsing some of what you said

I think there would have to be a big reason for her being scum for me to consider her as a contender for being scum at the moment and I don't think that really exists atm.

Like what does this sentence even say about Nauci
“There would have to be a big reason for her to be scum for me to consider her scum at the moment, and I don’t think that exists at the moment”
Say it out loud and you’ll have like the definition of a tautology, and you’ll also really find yourself living *at the moment*
I don’t disagree that Nauci is townish but it’s not because *theres not a big reason to call her scum at the moment*

Nothing mewtaph has posted reads

real

so far
VOTE: mewtaph prove me wrong

Man if you really are a town pgo then we really lucked out

how did we luck out if we have a town pgo?
this is like saying we lucked out if there was a claimed gunsmith.

Irrelephant could have been another informed player that there isn't a PGO

Though that'd be very specific and overly advantageous information I don't think Krazy would throw out

I don't know how well others' flavors and roles match but Rory swan ought to have been a gunsmith instead of pho is why I'm paranoid

I don't follow. Would you mind going through why you think he's informed another player that isn't a PGO?
What are you saying here?

5 AM paranoia comin' in hot

Irrelephant could have been another informed player that there isn't a PGO

Though that'd be very specific and overly advantageous information I don't think Krazy would throw out

I don't know how well others' flavors and roles match but Rory swan ought to have been a gunsmith instead of pho is why I'm paranoid

Incidentally, I saw in post #1 a mention of "informed status" not being revealed on flip. I've never played in a game with informed players, so I was wondering if the information they have should be shared with the rest of the town. Thoughts?

Finally, a useful subject.

If you think it should be shared then by all means, do share. If not then don't. Like why would you be telling us there is -say- a player with the loved modifier when we will get to know that later on anyway? On contrast, why would you hide something like -say- "all scum have guns" (unless you yourself are the Gunsmith).

Note: No. That's not a hint or a crumb. It's a reference to this game where I was indeed an informed Gunsmith who knew the scum team all had guns (all = both of them).

Guys please unvote, I’m an informed town gunsmith.

[Nauci]

It's a really fantastic game that you can literally play for free and it, for a very long time, was called the National Sport of South Korea due to its popularity there.

Too bad Heart of the Swarm killed it

Well okay maybe it was mostly League of Legends' fault

[Shoshin]

For the record, I don't think Varsoon made a mistake outing his information.

[Varsoon]

I think it was mostly League's fault.
In fact, the RTS genre declined due to being flooded with sub-par games, then hitting a huge drought when console gaming became much bigger and the PC genre evolved into ASSFAGGOTS and the like.

[skitter30]

the hits for gunsmith before he claimed are fairly negligible and took place like thousands of posts before his claim (there's like five of them and nobody was really suggesting that is a gunsmith, or that a gunsmith should claim, etc)

p-edit yeah those hits

i don't think they're that relevant to this discussion tbh

[Varsoon]

Aeon of Strife Styled Fortress Assault Game Going On Two Sides, for those not in the know.
People also call them MOBAs and ARTs, but those aren't great descriptors.

[Nauci]

I think it was mostly League's fault.
In fact, the RTS genre declined due to being flooded with sub-par games, then hitting a huge drought when console gaming became much bigger and the PC genre evolved into ASSFAGGOTS and the like.

As someone who followed PC esports since 2005 and worked in PC esports for 7 years, building the competitive community from the ground up with my

blood

red bull, sweat, and tears

I can't even express how sad I am about the evolution of the community and how much of it has become this weird gamergate crusade

I retired from the whole industry when I realized I'm sick of dealing with the misogyny

[Nauci]

Aeon of Strife Styled Fortress Assault Game Going On Two Sides, for those not in the know.
People also call them MOBAs and ARTs, but those aren't great descriptors.

No one who's not an elitist asshole ever used ARTS I think

(... I'm an elitist asshole)

I once had to explain to our general consensus the history of the genre when she asked me if DotA was inspired by LoL

[Nauci]

he declined to
what i can say from memory is that it did feel like a natural progression to me (checking creature)
so the question is whether he faked it

I think they are entirely possibly a real progression

But that it fits just as much for town as for scum 3p hunting

[Varsoon]

Oh boy.

I miss back when ESPN used to air stuff like Magic the Gathering tournaments.
More innocent days, those.

[Shoshin]

My thoughts on claims/roles:

Spoiler:

I think most players care too much about keeping their roles hidden. I don't think it hurts towns to get multiple early claims from scummy players. I also don't think it hurts to get early claims from townies when those claims are helpful to sorting alignments (e.g. Varsoon's information, miller claims, etc.) or to avoiding catastrophe (e.g. Irrelephant's PGO claim). Yes, roles sometimes help confirm players as town (e.g. vig shooting mafia, doctor preventing a nightkill), but competent scum also fake these sorts of behaviors (e.g. forfeiting nightkill to fakeclaim doctor/bulletproof). I don't see why players place so much value in roles when they don't help nearly as much as people seem to think. From what I've seen, they often lead to mislynches (scum love to push mislynches through role analysis).

I also think most players put too much weight into investigation. I've seen scum fake investigative results in most of my theme games, mini or large. I've seen town get faulty results in half my theme games. I've seen town get mislynched because of faulty guilty results. I've seen scum get cleared from faulty innocents. The reality is that you never know if the investigation has been screwed with by a redirector, bus driver, lawyer, framer, etc. The benefit of investigations from my perspective is to corroborate behavioral reads (e.g. in RC's recent game, an investigative result corroborated strong townreads on NSG and scumreads on Nico), or to encourage players to reevaluate someone you've been townreading (i.e. to combat confirmation bias). I'd never lynch someone because of a guilty, nor clear someone because of an innocent investigation.

I also think the players talking about "game-throwing" in this game because we outed Varsoon's information are overreacting. We outed some information. So what? If he dies, he dies. If he doesn't, he doesn't. The benefit of outing him is that we're getting stronger townreads on his slot, as well as valuable behavioral reactions from Nancy. From my perspective, that's much more useful than keeping his information hidden. I feel more comfortable townreading both him & Nancy after this, which means we're refining our reads in productive ways due to Varsoon's play. It also hedges against the risk that he dies before he outs the information. I see this as a win-win.

[Shoshin]

I still think the mafia lies within Key, Mew, Xtom, Mitillos, or Performer. I don't care that much who we lynch in this group as long as it's one of these five.

There's a chance that Koki's scum but it's not something I care to worry about today. I also don't think it changes my analysis that the rest of scum lie in those five players.

[Varsoon]

Spoiler: Re:Shoshin's Spoiler

Well, you do know if your investigation has been messed with due to redirection, because you should get a different target.
IE: I target SCUM Shoshin with a cop, but am redirected to TOWN Metalsonic
Result I get "Metalsonic is town."
Does that make sense?

I generally think that designing false positives and fails like miller and godfather into a setup is really awful on the mod's part and compromises the game entirely because people rely so hard on role info. After all, if a cop claims a guilty, dies, is confirmed to be a cop, you lynch that guilty. It just makes sense.

I was saying it was game-throwing, because, by design, my role gets the most useful info by being hidden and surviving to D5. Outting gets me killed, which means that even though I get townread, it might not really help us all that much. If our doctor was still around, this would be less of an issue, but, ay.

Anyway, I do generally agree that outting roles earlier rather than later benefits town more often and I tend to design my setups around scum being able to sabotage such play.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, let's go with Keyser.
Even if Koki gets good scum/third party info and doesn't IC-confirm, I think we'll be fine.

[Nauci]

Yeah, let's go with Keyser.
Even if Koki gets good scum/third party info and doesn't IC-confirm, I think we'll be fine.

Do you view him as more scummy than mewtaph?

[Nauci]

I still think the mafia lies within Key, Mew, Xtom, Mitillos, or Performer. I don't care that much who we lynch in this group as long as it's one of these five.

There's a chance that Koki's scum but it's not something I care to worry about today. I also don't think it changes my analysis that the rest of scum lie in those five players.

Does this mean you don't believe keyser's claim?

Do you prefer to lynch there, or on someone who's not a claimed to as outright?

I'm conflicted because I scum read Keyser more but the claim makes me want to consult my townreads

[Nauci]

I wish Irrelephant were able to weigh in here because he's so much better at reading key than I am

@tw who would you choose within Shoshin's pool?

[Varsoon]

I think Keyser's play is more scummy, whereas Mewtaph's is really just hard for me to engage with at all.

[Shoshin]

Replying to Varsoon's spoiler:

Spoiler:

I haven't seen any games where investigative results state who the result was on. I thought it was "guilty" or "innocent," so you don't know if you're redirected. I suppose it depends on the mod. I also don't think it addresses the problem of flavors (paranoid/naive/insane) or lawyers/framers.

If a cop got a guilty in this game on the worst or Nauci, I wouldn't lynch them. I'd take another look at their play but if their behaviors were town (as they are), I still wouldn't lynch. I trust behaviors more than roles because there's too much uncertainty regarding role interactions in closed setups, whereas there's no uncertainty regarding what a player did in the public thread. I also think that blaming the mod for bad design isn't fair to the mods or players. You know that the game of mafia potentially includes misdirection roles, millers, godfathers, etc., which means you have should keep those roles in mind if you want to win every game, not just the games that are designed according to your preferences. I think it's a skill to know when you should follow roles and when you should ignore results.

Personally, I like games with miller/godfather because I think it forces players to rely more on behavioral analysis. I think it's less fun to just play "follow the cop" than to sort players by their behaviors. I also think that there's games for everyone. There's entirely vanilla games for players who don't want to worry about role interactions. There's "normal" games where you can usually trust roles. And then there's theme games, where there's uncertainty, which means you have to develop the skill of sorting the results themselves based on behaviors.

[Shoshin]

I think if Irrelephant were here he'd push Performer over Key. I don't know for sure but I imagine him focusing in on Performer's hammer more than most of us.

[Varsoon]

Spoiler: On all that

I consider framers and hidden flavors like hidden insane to be hard bastard because they are beyond what a player should reasonably expect in a game.

I think intentionally putting those sorts of things in a game, when you are cognizant of how the site meta generally is, is bad design. It's more forgivable if you forewarn players about it--like with how Cheetory's Painting mafia game specifically revolved around a public cop mechanic with less and less chance of being accurate about its results.

I think that roles should always be secondary to game-based rhetoric and analysis, myself. Making a game into an easy solve of 'follow the cop' renders it not mafia anymore to me. Moderators who are building games should do well to understand how players play around roles like these and should design setups that aren't compromised by design, but where the game of mafia is supplemented and player engagement is driven by design.

As much as I hard investigative roles like cop (and how people treat their results/claims), I doubly hate roles that only exist to undermine those roles, like miller/godfather. How fucking lame is it to roll miller in a role madness game?

[skitter30]

I still think the mafia lies within Key, Mew, Xtom, Mitillos, or Performer. I don't care that much who we lynch in this group as long as it's one of these five.

There's a chance that Koki's scum but it's not something I care to worry about today. I also don't think it changes my analysis that the rest of scum lie in those five players.

mew > key >> performer >>>>> mitillos = xtoxm

[Varsoon]

EBWOP: As much as I hate hard investigative roles**

[Shoshin]

Why is Performer a step lower than Key/Mew, Skitter?