Micro 839: Two-in-One (its over)

[Persivul]

Ahh, the old "I know you are but what am I?" Trick. Amazing skillset to have.

Why do you characterize it that way instead of giving an honest answer to a question which you apparently believe to be of some significance?

[Elsa Jay]

Clearly I still have my vote on irrelephant and my opinion about xyzzy was answered. The main thing I wanted was their opinion on you, and now I got that answer.

[xyzzy]

So hey y'all. I'm doing a new thing this game. I'm a VT/VT. Discuss.

The only town motivation to declare that would be to play D1 wifom bullshit like A50 does.

I like lynching A50 early.

VOTE: 1 Pine
VOTE: 2 Pine

Nope, not the only reason

Yeah, but...Townpings from me ought to be viewed with suspicion. Just sayin'.

So why comment on people reading you and not your thoughts on them?

Keeping it light so far. *thumbsup*

for day 1 we should essentially treat this as one game. once we have things like investigation results tomorrow that changes things

, and obviously if someone makes an uncountered claim in one game, we should leave that person alone, but lynching two different people seems way too easy for scum in both games to manipulate. if we settle on one person, the odds that we get a hit in at least one game go up by an enormous amount. like, if a given player is scum in one game and town in the other, if it's looking like they'll get lynched in exactly one game, they'll logically want to do everything in their power to make sure it's the town game where they die. by lynching one person in both games you deny them that opportunity. yeah, there's a pretty low chance of one person being scum in both games, so statistically it's likely to be a mislynch in one, but that same math applies to lynching anyone (no matter who dies, the odds are not in our favor). sometimes you get a mislynch. you just gotta not repeat that mistake and then you win.

That said, this feels scummy, especially bolded. Sounds like bad faith gamesolving.

do you disagree with my analysis that a person who is scum in one game and town in the other would prefer to be lynched in the town game given the choice between the two? and if so, do you disagree that strategically taking away the ability for scum to do that is a good plan?

if you think I'm arguing in bad faith, then that's fair, but you haven't actually clarified your thoughts on my plan.

[Maki Harukawa]

I kinda don't like your plan for the simple fact it feels like it takes the whole '2 in 1' part of the game out of it. Along with the fact that I can easily see claims etc bringing complications to your whole idea. So I dislike it

[Elsa Jay]

Maki is a like minded individual. Much sense, she has.

The elephant has unexpectly disappeared. Wherever could he be?

[Errantparabola]

Would we get the results of that lynch immediately? Before D1 ends for the other game? Or do we get 2 lynch-flips at once, at the end of both dayphases?

Once a majority is reached, a lynch is immediately achieved.
However, flips will only be revealed when both lynches are achieved, during the Twilight Phase.

[Irrelephant11]

I think Elsa’s read on me is BS (why scumread me for disagreeing with the idea to have separate lynched but not xyzzy?)but without much experience with him I can’t tell if this is him posturing to generate AI content or a real read
If the latter, I scumread Elsa
I also think Persivul’s “meh” read on me is B

The fact that both lynches flip simultaneously makes me return to wanting to lynch a single player in both games

[Pine]

xyzzy I think your plan is reductive and makes unreasonable assumptions about how others would react to a situation I suspect you may have found yourself in. QED, made in bad faith

Pine, how do you feel about xyzzy and persival putting you at L-2 in both games at once for you claiming early?

How do

you

feel about it?

Ahh, the old "I know you are but what am I?" Trick. Amazing skillset to have.

That is not what happened there. The quoted accusation is disingenuous

[Elsa Jay]

It's also funny.

[Irrelephant11]

BEHOLD IT IS I, PINE, IN MY FIRST GAME IN LIKE SIX MONTHS

So hey y'all. I'm doing a new thing this game. I'm a VT/VT. Discuss.

I don't think an actual VT/VT would claim this early

VOTE: C14 Pine
VOTE: B7 Pine

I think I agree that double-VT wouldn’t claim like this
But I’m not sure I’m sold on the idea that makes him VT+Scum

Irrelephant

, because

xyzzy

hasn't voted or mentioned me yet,

Irrelephant

mentioned me as a hypothetical scum for his point. You've only responded to one of them thus far, even though they both seem alright with double-voting.

I don't think

xyzzy's

vote in 30 was RVS?

I can’t decide if I think this misunderstanding (Elsa thinking xyzzy was RVS voting - I think it was obvious he wasn’t RVS voting) is non-partner-y. I think I think so?

Ngl I was really confused (and still am) on how the whole scum pt thing works on how they can talk to each other thing goes.
Like are the 2 scum for 1 game in a pt and the other 2 in one but they can also use it as a neighborhood to talk about the other game?
If so that's wacky. What if you sr your partner but you can't say anything cause you'd be outting yourself in the other game.
My head hurts just thinking about it

This kinda sounds like someone who’s trying to crumb that they’re scum who’s scumreading their partner

[Irrelephant11]

Atleast it seems my "1 game at a time" idea worked out. Funally enough, we get 2 weeks total, so the first week is with the ever so slightly more complicated Bird 7p. We'll have next week to lynch in Carbon.

This is not how I read your initial suggestion to have two separate lynches. I thought you wanted to play both games simultaneously, placing separate votes on two different players you found scummy. I can sort of get behind playing one game at a time, but i still feel like it is more likely to lead to two mislynches than two scum lynches (as opposed to the other method which I think is most likely to hit one scum *and* one town)

What that I’ve said makes you feel the bolded?
Unless you’re just referring to my reason to scumread Elsa’s entrance to the thread?

Do you disagree that there could be scum motivation to lynching different people in each game?

I’ve tried to think about how someone would play as s/s, s/t, or t/t and i think FA’s suggestion is very fitting for s/t

Yeah, I was meaning your interaction with

Elsa

.

And no, I do see potential scum motivation in lynching different people. But I also see town. (For reasons why I think double-lynching wasn't a good option in my opening posts) 34 I think someone's idea on

"ideal play"

here is NAI to some degree. Which was why I felt off about you/

Elsa's

interaction, as if it were a forced dichotomy.

I voted Elsa with a random one of my two votes to try to show her how silly it is to only half vote (/I was kinda trying to be funny)
I do think the idea of using aritificial deadlines to play just one game at a time might be interesting

But I feel better about your intentions now with this.

In that case; just think if this were one game for a moment; what are your reads?

I’m townreading you (reads the most honest) and Pine (mostly tonal reasons). I mayyybe townread xyzzy for what I read as good setup spec but otoh i should probably read that as NAI. I don’t have a strong read on Maki but I’ve shared why I think she might be VT+scum. I nullread Persivul but my read there might change depending on the reasoning for his read on me. I scumread Elsa for reasons below

Tfw you mention the idea of focusing on 1 game but Maki comes in and sweeps up the credit.

I don’t townread how you’re concerned with getting “credit” - reminds me of scum players in the Coalition setup who are overly concerned with receiving towncred when they feel it’s due

Pine, how do you feel about xyzzy and persival putting you at L-2 in both games at once for you claiming early?

Who is more scummy? For consistancy, we're focused on Bird right now, not Carbon.

I thought you thought xyzzy’s vote was RVS? Did I miss a post where you changed your mind on that?
Regardless this feels kinda “hey don’t you wanna scumread those two players for that thing they did?”
But that might be confbias talking? I don’t understand the need for the slightly aggressive response to Persivul shortly after this, either

[Irrelephant11]

Maki is a like minded individual. Much sense, she has.

The elephant has unexpectly disappeared. Wherever could he be?

I don’t feel like I’ve been gone long enough to warrant this callout. Feels more like trying to build a mislynch than actual concern for my thoughts (see: Taly’s questions regarding my reads, etc)

both votes: elsa

Persivul please explain your read on me

[Elsa Jay]

19 hours to a bored Elsa is an eternity, and you were gone for 19 hours.

[Errantparabola]

Votecount 1.3

C14

Pine

(2): xyzzy, Persivul

Elsa Jay

(1): Irrelephant11

No Lynch

(1): Maki Harukawa

Not Voting

(3): Pine, Taly, Elsa Jay

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to achieve majority.

--

B7

Pine

(2): xyzzy, Persivul

Elsa Jay

(1): Irrelephant11

Irrelephant11

(1): Elsa Jay

Not Voting

(3): Pine, Taly, Maki Harukawa

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to achieve majority.

Deadline in (expired on 2019-01-02 17:37:00)

[Taly]

im alive guys, i had to poo for 22 hours straight

going to start organizing posts and thoughts now

[Irrelephant11]

I’m only realizing now that there’s good odds 2/3 of you are scum


Xyzzy, Pine, how do you each read Elsa?

[Taly]

Spoiler: Quote-By-Quote Post

Tfw you mention the idea of focusing on 1 game but Maki comes in and sweeps up the credit.

The closest thing I can think of in your ISO to

Maki's

idea is you expressing on Page 1 that you'd like to vote separately, not mentioning double-lynches/votes or how we should specifically handle the separate games.

Do you think the agreement with

Maki's

posts are unjustified? What is your read on her?

Pine, how do you feel about xyzzy and persival putting you at L-2 in both games at once for you claiming early?

How do

you

feel about it?

Ahh, the old "I know you are but what am I?" Trick. Amazing skillset to have.

This reads as deflective.

Clearly I still have my vote on irrelephant and my opinion about xyzzy was answered. The main thing I wanted was their opinion on you, and now I got that answer.

So your vote on

Irrelephant

since 7 is serious, yet you haven't directly engaged with him for about 50 posts?

36 - You said

xyzzy

was voting in RVS and to not be bothered with him, despite his partial agreement with

Irrelephant

on how to go about this dayphase - which I believe is the reason for your vote?

You are replying selectively.

Maki is a like minded individual. Much sense, she has.

The elephant has unexpectly disappeared. Wherever could he be?

19 hours to a bored Elsa is an eternity, and you were gone for 19 hours.

Especially down here - why the mention of

Irrelephant's

posting activity and not people that haven't posted for longer intervals?

[Taly]

@Irrelephant's 84

Solving for 2 games simultaneously makes a distinction between both difficult. I still agree with the plan given the mod's response.

Entertaining pre-flip associatives D1 will not help here. (Regarding

Elsa

)

Can you elaborate on

Maki

being VT+Scum?

do you disagree with my analysis that a person who is scum in one game and town in the other would prefer to be lynched in the town game given the choice between the two?

and if so, do you disagree that strategically taking away the ability for scum to do that is a good plan?

if you think I'm arguing in bad faith, then that's fair, but you haven't actually clarified your thoughts on my plan.

The bolded assumes that a mislynch would be made, and therefore, not a plan that is concerned with scumhunting.

Do you have other reads aside from

Pine

? And can you elaborate on how

Pine

is likely scum in at least one game given his opening post?

I'd like

Persivul

to answer the above as well, and for his read on

Maki

and her posts so far.

(About

Pine

) I don't see scum posting something that could be interpreted in many different ways as a VT/VT claim. It reads as gauging for reactions and thinking below the surface level.

[Taly]

I'm trying to do less walls and more concise/condensed version of my thoughts for comprehension.

Also, I'm probably going VLA from around Dec. 23 to Dec. 26 because of the holidays

I'll possibly still post within non-prod parameters, but just giving a heads-up.

I'll have a readslist soon

[Taly]

also

pers

, i wanna know what game about

elsa

you meant originally (and your reads there and here) if you are able to discuss it

ive played with

jaydragonking

once but it was awhile ago and so the meta is very unreliable

[Elsa Jay]

I dont remember you either, if that helps, Taly.

Meta isn't really something that works effectively on me since I change it based on my mood, the players, the setup, and the gamestate. Pick any of my 2 games and see if you see similarities.

[Pine]

I’m only realizing now that there’s good odds 2/3 of you are scum


Xyzzy, Pine, how do you each read Elsa?

See the bolded below:

xyzzy I think your plan is reductive and makes unreasonable assumptions about how others would react to a situation I suspect you may have found yourself in. QED, made in bad faith

Pine, how do you feel about xyzzy and persival putting you at L-2 in both games at once for you claiming early?

How do

you

feel about it?

Ahh, the old "I know you are but what am I?" Trick. Amazing skillset to have.

That is not what happened there. The quoted accusation is disingenuous

Granted, I could have been more explicit, but I find Elsa's conduct a bit hinky. It's not a strong read, but it suggests an agenda.

[Maki Harukawa]

Can we try to get out of all the mech talk now. Because I'm started to scumread people but I scumread them as a whole and that's obv a problem because they can be town in 1 game and scum in the other.
So let's focus on c7 is good with people.

[Maki Harukawa]

Ironic typo is ironic. I meant B7
VOTE: B7 vote Irrelephant
Your anger in Elsa feels overly defensive and not even that warranted for that matter.

[Irrelephant11]

19 hours to a bored Elsa is an eternity, and you were gone for 19 hours.

I have to admit this kinda struck me as towny
This might just be a play style + “defining ideal play” difference
UNVOTE: both
I’ll re evaluate tomorrow