Micro 839: Two-in-One (its over)

[Persivul]

Idea: we play this as 2 separate games. All posts for now are on one game. We set our own deadline for that game. Then we move on to the other with the mod's deadline.

Thoughts?

[Taly]

I dont remember you either, if that helps, Taly.

Meta isn't really something that works effectively on me since I change it based on my mood, the players, the setup, and the gamestate. Pick any of my 2 games and see if you see similarities.

Yeah, I think you're acknowledging specific posts and dodging others purposefully.

VOTE: B7 vote Elsa Jay

Read and respond to 91

Idea: we play this as 2 separate games. All posts for now are on one game. We set our own deadline for that game. Then we move on to the other with the mod's deadline.

Thoughts?

This has been said before and I've already agreed to it.

I've mentioned and asked you questions in 92...

[Elsa Jay]

Of course I acknowledge some things and ignore other things. I pick the things that interest me. It's what I do.

When someone interacts with me, I'm more likely to notice their disappearance in game. Who elsa disappeared that you wanted me to notice?

[Persivul]

A confirmed townie being able to offer input in a game they are dead in is invaluable even if they cant vote, fuzzy. Why get rid of the unique mechanic like that?

There's nothing special about the reads of a dead person.

If this were true, tree stumps would just stump D1. They generally don't do that.

[Persivul]

Yeah, but...Townpings from me ought to be viewed with suspicion. Just sayin'.

Why is that?

[Persivul]

BEHOLD IT IS I, PINE, IN MY FIRST GAME IN LIKE SIX MONTHS

So hey y'all. I'm doing a new thing this game. I'm a VT/VT. Discuss.

Town pings.

Why town pings for an unnecessary claim?

If he's lying, that's scummy. If he's telling the truth, he narrowed down the NK pool in setups which likely rely heavily on PRs.

[Persivul]

Yeah, I like the reasoning he gave, but then the same type of thing I felt odd about Irrelephant doing, I saw in Elsa's post. (filtered banter, quick back and forth with an equally quick end)

It's early. That seems pretty normal to me. No offense, but I find your in-depth posts to be weird this early.

[Pine]

Idea: we play this as 2 separate games. All posts for now are on one game. We set our own deadline for that game. Then we move on to the other with the mod's deadline.

Thoughts?

This idea sounds suboptimal, but I honestly can't put my finger on why.

Yeah, but...Townpings from me ought to be viewed with suspicion. Just sayin'.

Why is that?

Because I'm a gifted scum player.

BEHOLD IT IS I, PINE, IN MY FIRST GAME IN LIKE SIX MONTHS

So hey y'all. I'm doing a new thing this game. I'm a VT/VT. Discuss.

Town pings.

Why town pings for an unnecessary claim?

If he's lying, that's scummy. If he's telling the truth, he narrowed down the NK pool in setups which likely rely heavily on PRs.

In my experience, laying out strict dichotomies like this usually indicates a flawed model. Your assumption is "I wouldn't do that as Town, so therefore a false claim must be scum." Well I ain't you, mate.

[Pine]

Yeah, I like the reasoning he gave, but then the same type of thing I felt odd about Irrelephant doing, I saw in Elsa's post. (filtered banter, quick back and forth with an equally quick end)

It's early. That seems pretty normal to me. No offense, but I find your in-depth posts to be weird this early.

Agreed. Not necessarily scummy, though, Taly does this.

[Persivul]

@Persivul

specifically 49

Do you think double-voting/double-lynching is a valid approach with the stated discussion so far?

Double voting at this point? Sure. There haven't been wagons enough to differentiate one game from the other. And, it will be difficult to have wagons with Elsa throwing shade at people for putting a second vote on someone.

Maybe we should use FOSs and keep our own VCs, because there apparently won't be wagons to analyze.

And does D1 WIFOM = scum here?

It could. I don't see the town motivation. Like I said, A50 likes to pull D1 shit. I find it PL worthy in general, but at least in larger games, there's more time to rectify a mistake. Here, Pine is throwing confusion into setups that could be in lylo on D2. At best his claim is anti-town, and we don't have time to absorb that kind of shit.

[Taly]

Of course I acknowledge some things and ignore other things. I pick the things that interest me. It's what I do.

When someone interacts with me, I'm more likely to notice their disappearance in game. Who elsa disappeared that you wanted me to notice?

I want you to me actually engage me and stop avoiding me just because I bring content into the thread.

You're not actually answering the brunt of my questions or assertions - your responses are also quite passive toward me given how I've made commentary on multiple of your posts, which reads as disingenuous.

What are your reads and thoughts aside from

Irrelephant

?

[Persivul]

For the next 3-5. Irl days, I'm going to mainly focus on voting in Bird 7p.

Why Bird? Mod repeatedly listed Carbon first. Seems like that one would naturally be the first focused on.

[Persivul]

I don’t feel as strongly as FA about what “ideal play” is here but I think Pine makes good points about how separating the lynches will make it harder to hit scum

When the setup only provides for one mislynch, we can't be basing lynches on statistics.

[Persivul]

Let’s say you’re 100% certain that xyzzy/Pine is a scumteam, and you’re also 100% sure Taly/maki are a scumteam.

How did you reach that conclusion?

You're probably scum reading them for pushing low hanging fruit, making opportunistic votes, etc. Those things are specific to particular games. xyzzy/pine are probably doing those things in their scum game, but not doing them in their town game.

??
I was talking about hypothetical teams for a hypothetical scenario

Yes, and I'm pointing out that you don't just hypothetically get to a read. If you consider the ways people get to reads, you answer your own issue.

[Persivul]

Atleast it seems my "1 game at a time" idea worked out. Funally enough, we get 2 weeks total, so the first week is with the ever so slightly more complicated Bird 7p. We'll have next week to lynch in Carbon.

Scratch my question on this. I'm not sure how the one is slightly more complicated, but you do have some kind of reason.

[Persivul]

Nope, not the only reason

Hey, I've got an idea - you could actually, you know...explain the reason.

[Persivul]

I also think Persivul’s “meh” read on me is B

After our last meeting you should be happy with "meh."

[Persivul]

Persivul please explain your read on me

I said that, after you had one conversation with another person, I was "meh," i.e. null, on you. Your repeated requests for an explanation of my read feels forced - like you're scum paranoid that you don't look townie enough, and you want to know why so you can correct it.

C14: Unvote

B7: Unvote

B7: FOS Irrelephant

[Taly]

@Persivul

105-106

I didn't read

Pine's

opening post as a claim, as there's no way of knowing that he's truthful. He also said

"discuss"

, implying he wanted people to debate his post.

So I took this as him stirring up conversation and getting reactions. He voiced his opinion on

xyzzy

so far and has engaged with you. I figured people who just wanted to lynch

Pine

in both games for the purpose of WIFOM were to just avoid scumhunting. I found

Pine's

post to be town-motivated in the sense that he's getting a feel for the players by attracting attention to themselves.

That's what I'm doing right now with my "in-depth" posts as you say... I can't articulate a full, strong read without generating discussion that requires it.

109

I don't see a flaw in FoS'ing, and double-lynching is viable if we believe one person is likely scum within both game discussions.

Policy lynching D1 is fickle considering this is a 7p micro with 2 games and opens up too much setup and mechanic discussion.

Persivul

, do you have any reads aside from

Pine

?

P-Edit

And

Irrelephant

?

[Persivul]

also pers, i wanna know what game about elsa you meant originally (and your reads there and here) if you are able to discuss it

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77677

I came in on page 93. Elsa was a town Ninja Lawyer. The main thing that bugged me about him was that he had claimed without need, on the grounds that he was basically a miller. Ninja Lawyer was useless for town, but it is in no way a miller. He made a couple other setup errors as well. Worst of all, he self-hammered as town with no reason that that would benefit town. I reported him for playing against wincon, but I guess they didn't do anything.

So:
- I just don't like playing with the guy.
- He seems to be playing a better (i.e. different) game here, which makes me consider that he might be more careful in his thoughts as scum
- BUT, in these setups we don't have the luxury of PLs, so I have to be careful my read is influenced as little as possible by the first point.

[Persivul]

Can we try to get out of all the mech talk now.

Says the person who's done nothing but mech talk, and precious little of that.

[Persivul]

In my experience, laying out strict dichotomies like this usually indicates a flawed model. Your assumption is "I wouldn't do that as Town, so therefore a false claim must be scum." Well I ain't you, mate.

Call me old school. I understand that Lynch All Liars has gone out of fashion, but I think that's a mistake.

[Persivul]

Agreed. Not necessarily scummy, though, Taly does this.

I figured as much. I'm going to do some meta on him to verify eventually.

[Elsa Jay]

also pers, i wanna know what game about elsa you meant originally (and your reads there and here) if you are able to discuss it

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=77677

I came in on page 93. Elsa was a town Ninja Lawyer. The main thing that bugged me about him was that he had claimed without need, on the grounds that he was basically a miller. Ninja Lawyer was useless for town, but it is in no way a miller. He made a couple other setup errors as well. Worst of all, he self-hammered as town with no reason that that would benefit town. I reported him for playing against wincon, but I guess they didn't do anything.

So:
- I just don't like playing with the guy.
- He seems to be playing a better (i.e. different) game here, which makes me consider that he might be more careful in his thoughts as scum
- BUT, in these setups we don't have the luxury of PLs, so I have to be careful my read is influenced as little as possible by the first point.

Tfw you get reported and don't even know anything about it.

Kokichi said he'd hammer me that game anyway. The game was going nowhere for another hour before he lynched me anyway. I just sped it up.

[Pine]

Nope, not the only reason

Hey, I've got an idea - you could actually, you know...explain the reason.

Some reasons are defeated through explanation. Unfortunately, Taly's analysis in 118 is spot-on, and therefore defeated. The claim was to see what you people would do with it.

In my experience, laying out strict dichotomies like this usually indicates a flawed model. Your assumption is "I wouldn't do that as Town, so therefore a false claim must be scum." Well I ain't you, mate.

Call me old school. I understand that Lynch All Liars has gone out of fashion, but I think that's a mistake.

It isn't that it's gone out of fashion, it's that the core flaw has been discovered and dissected, and the strategy as a whole has been discarded. The fact of the matter is that there are numerous good reasons for Townies to tell less than the truth, and enforcing the old LaL strategy limits viable strategies.

Case in point, you pushing my claim too hard and stubbornly forcing your false dichotomy has exposed the gambit and halted the flow of really solid reactions from people who didn't know how to handle it.

Good job!