Newbie 1908 [Game Over]

[PvtUrist]

While you're at it, feel free to explain this too;

Nauci

: Made an off-topic post about masons, either a funpost for the lulz or a scumpost for the derail (I'm much more inclined to think the former.) Otherwise,

strong town reads.

What part of Nauci's posts gives you "strong town reads"? This is something I'm really curious about.

Likewise, I'd like to invoke once again;

In post 84, rosterfoster wrote:
Nauci is a nice person, but nice person and town are not the same thing.

[rosterfoster]

I live in the wrong timezone for mafia, clearly.

Hi Urist.

Have you completely caught up yet? I think these posts are quite important, so I'm wondering what you think of them.

I've been getting scum reads on Jim all game, and with Salamander's more recent posts my suspicions of him have weakened a bit; his posts seem more scrubby than scummy (though that could be exactly what he wants us to think, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now).

VOTE: Jim Hawkins should explain himself or walk the plank.

What I mean is that I'm giving him a chance to clear himself of suspicion if he starts posting more and argues his case well.

I am hopping on the Jim wagon, I feel he's lurking, like someone said earlier. I also don't believe that he's offering much (like someone said earlier about me lol) I also would like to state that now that it's after the holidays I will be way more active on here . I'm pretty new and may not understand all the meta so bare with me .

UNVOTE: rosterfoster
VOTE: Jim Hawkins

Also I agree that Nauci was just fluff-posting before (no effort-pants, as she put it), but my null read on her changed in recent pages.

We have the four on wagon, plus xwing and Munch willing to give intent to hammer.

That is 6 of the 9. Take out Jim since being the wagon, that only leaves Komodo and myself.

I feel if Jim is scum, scum is closer to the end of the wagon/in the intents.

If Jim is town, then I like to think both scum are in that 6, either way, I feel that makes Komodo town.

I feel that because Jim happened kind of out of nowhere, that Jim is more likely town than scum.

However, @Jim, it’s time for you to claim, bud.

Oh wow. I totally skipped page 8 except for the last Intent to hammer post.

Hmm, then that means Jim probably is scum, and someone helped transfer wagons.

I find this an odd line of reasoning. You felt that Jim was likelier town because of the speed of the wagon (I don't disagree with this), but then you say he's probably scum because it dissipated over to Salamander. The person who helped transfer wagons was really Nauci (for me anyway), yet she is a townread for you.

[PvtUrist]

Hello roster, I've pretty much caught up and will have a look at what you've just mentioned.

Seeing as my predecessor only made 3 posts (one of which is RVS), the only townie reason I can see for Jim's lynch is policy lynch on a lurking player.

In post 157, vivit wrote:
I've been getting

scum read

s on Jim all game, and with Salamander's more recent posts my suspicions of him have weakened a bit; his posts seem more scrubby than scummy (though that could be exactly what he wants us to think, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now).

VOTE: Jim Hawkins should explain himself or walk the plank.

"Scum read" on player with only 3 votes instead of null/policy lynch. Seems legit.

In post 159, vivit wrote:
What I mean is that I'm giving him a chance to clear himself of suspicion if he starts posting more and argues his case well.

Fence sitting.

In post 168, Salamander wrote:
I am hopping on the Jim wagon, I feel he's lurking, like someone said earlier. I also don't believe that he's offering much (like someone said earlier about me lol) I also would like to state that now that it's after the holidays I will be way more active on here . I'm pretty new and may not understand all the meta so bare with me .

UNVOTE: rosterfoster
VOTE: Jim Hawkins

Policy lynch on lurker. This is the expected response from town, unlike vivit's.

In post 207, Flavor Leaf wrote:
Oh wow. I totally skipped page 8 except for the last Intent to hammer post.

Hmm, then that means Jim probably is scum, and someone helped transfer wagons.

207 is fascinating. I don't get the logics behind that either, confused-town?

[Nauci]

This might be a matter of playstyle or experience, but I found your analysis extremely surface level. A lot of it seems to be based on the percentage of serious posts, or serious-looking posts.

Do you think there's scum motivation to making a joke/rvs entry post

immediately after replacing into a game

, commenting on an RVS post as I caught up?

In addition, even though you clearly read the post where I explained my comment about Doughboy replacing out, you left your "scumslip?" comment untouched: intentional misrepresentation, or laziness?

Do you actively see scum intentions behind anything I've said, or do you simply see only that banter = scummy, and skipped past all of the posts where I've actively contributed and helped drive the pace of the game and drawn out alignment indicative content? Or maybe this is just what you thought would be a potentially easy way to fake scumhunting walls of text by just posting the fluffier quotes from me?

Why do you think that giving a player who has, by your own account, only made 3 posts, some room to defend themselves, is scummy? Why do you dismiss the idea that 3 posts can be scummy posts at the same time?

[Nauci]

I find this an odd line of reasoning. You felt that Jim was likelier town because of the speed of the wagon (I don't disagree with this), but then you say he's probably scum because it dissipated over to Salamander. The person who helped transfer wagons was really Nauci (for me anyway), yet she is a townread for you.

That line of reasoning is something that is pretty commonplace for more experienced players on the site to have.

Analysis on wagons and how they form is often counter-intuitive. Scum is less likely to actively push a counter-wagon to their partner, but more likely to follow one. Wagons that form on scummy people but seemingly inexplicably change to a counter-wagon often contain scum voting to save their partner. But sometimes, it happens because the initial wagon contained scum, for scummy reasons.

It's a piece of the puzzle, and town/scum reads of who the voters are, plus when and why they voted, are the other pieces.

I think there are reasons to question Flavor's comment on the wagons in that it ignores some of the narratives that were happening with these 2, but the rule-of-thumb he's implying isn't illogical.

[PvtUrist]

and skipped past all of the posts where I've actively contributed and helped drive the pace of the game and drawn out alignment indicative content?

Ok but where are they?

Why do you think that giving a player who has, by your own account, only made 3 posts, some room to defend themselves, is scummy?

Explain this

Why do you dismiss the idea that 3 posts can be scummy posts at the same time?

I don't. Feel free to bring them up though.

[PvtUrist]

Analysis on wagons and how they form is often counter-intuitive. Scum is less likely to actively push a counter-wagon to their partner, but more likely to follow one. Wagons that form on scummy people but seemingly inexplicably change to a counter-wagon often contain scum voting to save their partner. But sometimes, it happens because the initial wagon contained scum, for scummy reasons.

It's a piece of the puzzle, and town/scum reads of who the voters are, plus when and why they voted, are the other pieces.

I think there are reasons to question Flavor's comment on the wagons in that it ignores some of the narratives that were happening with these 2, but the rule-of-thumb he's implying isn't illogical.

I do not understand. I'd love if you'd explain what it means and what it does for us.

[Nauci]

You implied that Vivit was lying by saying she was scum reading Jim based on just his 3 posts, which would imply that it's basically impossible to scum read a player if they only have 3 posts. But when she said that she wanted him to come defend himself, you said it was fence-sitting. That seems excessively hypocritical.

[Nauci]

Wagon/vote count analysis is too big a topic for me to just explain.

Here's a primer on it, but understanding what Flavor meant comes from a lot of research/experience.

[rosterfoster]

I find this an odd line of reasoning. You felt that Jim was likelier town because of the speed of the wagon (I don't disagree with this), but then you say he's probably scum because it dissipated over to Salamander. The person who helped transfer wagons was really Nauci (for me anyway), yet she is a townread for you.

That line of reasoning is something that is pretty commonplace for more experienced players on the site to have.

Analysis on wagons and how they form is often counter-intuitive. Scum is less likely to actively push a counter-wagon to their partner, but more likely to follow one. Wagons that form on scummy people but seemingly inexplicably change to a counter-wagon often contain scum voting to save their partner. But sometimes, it happens because the initial wagon contained scum, for scummy reasons.

It's a piece of the puzzle, and town/scum reads of who the voters are, plus when and why they voted, are the other pieces.

I think there are reasons to question Flavor's comment on the wagons in that it ignores some of the narratives that were happening with these 2, but the rule-of-thumb he's implying isn't illogical.

I understand this point - I think to have an intuitive feel of this I would need a lot more experience.

However, my point wasn’t really about the wagon-reading, but more that Flavor implies that scum would be the catalyst for switching the wagon (if I misunderstood this point, then it makes sense). To me the catalyst for the wagon-switching was you, yet flavor townreads you quite strongly.

[Nauci]

Ok but where are they?

There's an ISO button next to the post number on each of my posts. You can find them there.

It's a comically bad misrepresentation of my play to quote 6 casual posts from my early entrance, then confidently imply that none of my 54 posts have any contribution

[Nauci]

However, my point wasn’t really about the wagon-reading, but more that Flavor implies that scum would be the catalyst for switching the wagon (if I misunderstood this point, then it makes sense). To me the catalyst for the wagon-switching was you, yet flavor townreads you quite strongly.

Gotcha.

Valid question.

[Nauci]

{roster, Munch, Komodo, Salamander, xwing} lean-town

either reads throughout the thread (example being roster + salamander TvT interaction on page 1), or nothing of their posts pings my suspicions yet.

The latter seems like very shaky grounds for a town-lean instead of null read.

[PvtUrist]

You implied that Vivit was lying by saying she was scum reading Jim based on just his 3 posts

that is exactly what I imply

which would imply that it's basically impossible to scum read a player if they only have 3 posts.

You are twisting my words/I don't believe I've ever said that

But when she said that she wanted him to come defend himself, you said it was fence-sitting. That seems excessively hypocritical.

that is what I imply.
Also "seeming excessively hypocritical" is an opinion, not a proper argument

Also feel free to read this;

I have been suspicious of Jim all game, though; I just haven't been expressing it because A) other things have been the topic of conversation and B)

I didn't have then (and still don't have) a lot to support my suspicions other than the way he has been lurking.

And yes, lurking is considered to be not just a scum tell, but a scum tactic to avoid accidentally making alignment-indicative posts. There are other reasons to lurk, but lurking as a townie is a generally counterproductive enterprise (read that wiki article for more information).

Meaning Vivit wasn't scum reading Jim by his 3 posts, but solely by his inactivity.

"Scum read" on player with only 3 votes instead of null/policy lynch. Seems legit.

Yeah my bad there.

[PvtUrist]

{roster, Munch, Komodo, Salamander, xwing} lean-town

either reads throughout the thread (example being roster + salamander TvT interaction on page 1), or nothing of their posts pings my suspicions yet.

The latter seems like very shaky grounds for a town-lean instead of null read.

Again, opinion. If I feel someone's town, I'm going to town read them. Simple as that.

[PvtUrist]

Wagon/vote count analysis is too big a topic for me to just explain.

Here's a primer on it, but understanding what Flavor meant comes from a lot of research/experience.

Ty I'll have a read.

Ok but where are they?

There's an ISO button next to the post number on each of my posts. You can find them there.

It's a comically bad misrepresentation of my play to quote 6 casual posts from my early entrance, then confidently imply that none of my 54 posts have any contribution

Likewise, if you feel I've misrepresented you, feel free to prove me otherwise.

[Nauci]

that is what I imply.
Also "seeming excessively hypocritical" is an opinion, not a proper argument

Oh gee oh boy let's break into a semantics discussion; everybody's favorite!

I can restate all of my sentences as if they're the objective, scientific truth, if you'd like.

Or we can continue to play mafia, where almost everything is a viewpoint, an opinion, an evaluation, and a suspicion.

I don't need to prove you've misrepresented me because everyone else has read my posts and actually digested the content. It's up to you to process them yourself.

You said you've caught up entirely, but your reads all seemed to be formed on your reactions to the first 100-150 posts in the game. How did those reads progress?

[PvtUrist]

that is what I imply.
Also "seeming excessively hypocritical" is an opinion, not a proper argument

Oh gee oh boy let's break into a semantics discussion; everybody's favorite!

I can restate all of my sentences as if they're the objective, scientific truth, if you'd like.

Or we can continue to play mafia, where almost everything is a viewpoint, an opinion, an evaluation, and a suspicion.

Fair point. I am wrong about that.

I don't need to prove you've misrepresented me because everyone else has read my posts and actually digested the content. It's up to you to process them yourself.

I don't see what town!Nauci would have to lose in bringing up a few proper posts of her own to solidify her position. If you're town, why so much aggression? (Yes, barring me being a bad person.)

You said you've caught up entirely, but your reads all seemed to be formed on your reactions to the first 100-150 posts in the game. How did those reads progress?

That is outright incorrect. I won't bother correcting it because apparently "it's up to you to process them yourself".

See how lame it seems when I use it?

[Nauci]

I've got to go to bed since it's 7:30 AM, but I'll leave y'all with this:

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is quite possibly the hallmark example of scum trying to fake scum hunting.

-Town reads given with no stated basis
-Case(s) formed from low-hanging-fruit behavior (the case on me, due to my fluff posting for several pages)
-Lack of read progressions (no read progressions/comments on anything between the first 100 posts and the live engagement with Roster and I)
-Misrepresentation that is more in line with an agenda than a misread (doubling and tripling down on implying I've not made any contribution instead of re-evaluating)
-Doubling down on

not

providing basis for reads (in a hypocritical way nonetheless! Literally one post after criticizing me for posting "an opinion, not an argument," he goes with the defense that his town reads are an opinion?)

It's an evolution from newb-scum play though, which involves struggling so hard to form scum reads on players they know are town, that every post comes out as hand-wringing in alphabetic form aka fence-sitting.

[PvtUrist]

This is quite possibly the hallmark example of scum trying to fake scum hunting.

If you're referring to the engagement between us as TvS, I agree.

-Town reads given with no stated basis

Well, I could say "it's up to you to process it" but I won't. Reminder that I'm not the only one who doesn't have full reads complete with "stated basis".

-Case(s) formed from low-hanging-fruit behavior (the case on me, due to my fluff posting for several pages)

So you'd rather I kept my mouth shut/pressured elsewhere? (ofcourse you would). Again, if you were town, you've got nothing to lose if I pressured you. I really don't see town!Nauci acting this defensively.

-Lack of read progressions (no read progressions/comments on anything between the first 100 posts and the live engagement with Roster and I)

I don't even. What? Lack of "read progression" (what even is that) is bad and not commenting on something else is bad? Sorry, I don't understand this either.

-Misrepresentation that is more in line with an agenda than a misread (doubling and tripling down on implying I've not made any contribution instead of re-evaluating)

Correct representation on the agenda of town victory on a correct read. FTFY. (again, for the apparent fourth time, it's up to you to prove your allignment, not me)

-Doubling down on

not

providing basis for reads (in a hypocritical way nonetheless! Literally one post after criticizing me for posting "an opinion, not an argument," he goes with the defense that his town reads are an opinion?)

Emphasis on something that is not unique (fyi I'm not the only one here who haven't provided basis for reads). I've stated my mistake in Post 242 so no need to argue from that.

It's an evolution from newb-scum play though, which involves struggling so hard to form scum reads on players they know are town, that every post comes out as

hand-wringing in alphabetic form aka fence-sitting

.

Newb-scum would be wagoning on salamander, not haggling with you. I won't even try to understand the second half of the setence (yep, "hand-wringing in alphabetic form aka fence-sitting" definitely comes from a town player).

[PvtUrist]

I'm interested to see how others react to this. Especially vivit's response.

[Nauci]

UNVOTE:

Thanks for all of the live responses, Pvt. I'm pretty satisfied that your slot is probably-town.

Real-time interaction is absolutely the best way to sort people (with a sprinkling of mild infuriation)

Sorry for all the snark!

-_- I can't even go to sleep; gotta go run errands now

[rosterfoster]

Tell me, Urist. If you think Nauci is scum as strongly as you seem to, why aren’t you voting him?

I am confused as to why this got so heated so fast.

Pedit: Oh. That’s why.

[Nauci]

Tell me, Urist. If you think Nauci is scum as strongly as you seem to, why aren’t you voting him?

I am confused as to why this got so heated so fast.

Pedit: Oh. That’s why.

Am a her

[rosterfoster]

Ah sorry. I try my hardest to remember these things, but fail miserably.